By the way, 4 keypress at the same time is the max on one row whereas 6 keypresses at the same time is the max across 2 rows
They've fixed the issue where you can only press one key at once.
They've removed any claims that it'll handle 6 keys now. I don't know whether they were just ignorant, whether they had issues with their supplier or whether it was marketing that backfired with too many complains but there's no longer any 6-key claims made. (they never actually claimed it was n-key rollover, just that it'd handle six keys at once).
As far as I know it's a normal matrix that'll block on some combinations of three keys, if you want n-key rollover look elsewhere.
They've fixed the issue where you can only press one key at once.
They've removed any claims that it'll handle 6 keys now. I don't know whether they were just ignorant, whether they had issues with their supplier or whether it was marketing that backfired with too many complains but there's no longer any 6-key claims made. (they never actually claimed it was n-key rollover, just that it'd handle six keys at once).
As far as I know it's a normal matrix that'll block on some combinations of three keys, if you want n-key rollover look elsewhere.
It would handle 6-keys on quite a few combinations. Unfortunately, it failed on a few others. QWAS would only give you 2 keys.
That particular combination seems like a pretty serious oversight for a keyboard being marketed to gamers.
Well, it would be nice for someone to check something a little more realistic.
CTRL-WEAZX if you play FPS style games maybe. Crouching while throwing grenades and sending distress calls.
They actually are still claiming it can do 6 keys at once in the details section on their website for this keyboard. You can check it out here. http://www.abs.com/app/Keyboard_M1_details.asp
I was really hoping this issue was remedied..seems as though it may have been but everywhere I read i get mixed reviews. I really want to get a mechanical keyboard but im not about to drop <100$ bucks on one.
I don't game, and when I did, I used a Belkin Nostromo N50/52, but I am not too sure how often you would press more than two of the QWAS keys at the same time. I would think this isn't as big of a problem as it appears.
I think ItlnStln answered your question. The lastest review on Newegg ALSO indicates keyblocking on one row.
It is not technically a 6-key rollover board.
If I were a heavy gamer I'd keep looking.
(unless I am to assume WAS would only allow 2 key press as well, in which case yes that would be an issue)
Not surprised with the ABS results but am with the Compaq. Do you have it plugged into PS/2 or USB through a dongle?
Well, Wat got a different result. (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=93527&postcount=8)
Also, I believe Cchan said the 8100 and 11800 were part of the Cherry Premium Series (whatever that was) and were N-key.
Not sure what's going on here but shows how difficult it is to nail this down.
For the record - everyone that has tested them have found the Filco N-key models and the Topres to be fully 6-key at least. Also my Das handled CTRL-QWAZX no problem. (Teh (sic) key transposition thing is a different issue.) Under $100 remains a vast wasteland for currently shipping 6-key boards. Except the Filco Zero and I haven't seen a review on that one yet (worried the keys are too stiff for a gaming board).
yep the mx11800 passes the test! If I was to imitate playing cs using the 1,2,3,4 and wasd + shift, ctrl and space, they all register when I press them all down. (only up to 8 keys though)
hmm... ok so basically 2 people are saying its fixed and 2 aren't. This is the main reason I started this thread, I really wanna get to the bottom of this before I buy.
In that link you posted, it says:
That doesn't look like they tested QWAS, which the combination I mentioned that would only register 2 keys on both my AT101W and MX11800.
Well, Wat got a different result. (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=93527&postcount=8)
Also, I believe Cchan said the 8100 and 11800 were part of the Cherry Premium Series (whatever that was) and were N-key.
Well, so much for recommending the Compaq 11800 to heavy gamers then.
Getting pretty lean there in the sub $100 6-key rollover keyboard choices.
In the new shipping boards I can't think of one other than the Filco Zero. And I betcha that's a pretty stiff and loud keyboard. Might be worth the tradeoff for some people.
Stupid keyboard manufacturers. This one is easy. Save money by using scissor switches, no LEDs and cheap case. Put the money into some penny diodes and electronics. Market the hell out of it. Easy.
$111 at Amazon. (http://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-64022-7G-Keyboard-Black/dp/B000W6IY6O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1245343769&sr=8-1)
Some people have it here. Another pretty stiff keyboard for gaming IMHO.
I REALLY don't want to leap over the 100$ mark
some great responses here
In the new shipping boards I can't think of one other than the Filco Zero. And I betcha that's a pretty stiff and loud keyboard. Might be worth the tradeoff for some people.
Stupid keyboard manufacturers. This one is easy. Save money by using scissor switches, no LEDs and cheap case. Put the money into some penny diodes and electronics. Market the hell out of it. Easy.
I do tend to keep things for a VERY long time, so this would probably be a good investment. Ive had a logitech elite keyboard (membrane eewWW) for 5+ years now
I guess the next question is, what switches are best for gaming. I see much praise for the blue cherrys. Ill do some searching as I'm sure this has been asked before.
If Filco/elitekeyboards makes a board with black alps, won't that pretty much cover the spectrum, aside from buckling springs?
Well, leaving aside some obscure ones, pretty much. It would be nice to see a Filco Zero with black Alps, would probably sell quite well.
some great responses here, beginning to really enjoy this forum. I REALLY don't want to leap over the 100$ mark but if I must then.. well.. I'm sure you know how that goes.
I do tend to keep things for a VERY long time, so this would probably be a good investment. Ive had a logitech elite keyboard (membrane eewWW) for 5+ years now and the keys are just now starting to stick, plus the keyboard isn't recognized half the time when i boot up. Time for a new one, thought I'd give this mechanical thing a try.
I guess the next question is, what switches are best for gaming. I see much praise for the blue cherrys. Ill do some searching as I'm sure this has been asked before.
Thanks again!
Saying your keyboard offers 6-key rollover (or in whatever similar Engrish rendition), when it doesn't, is not mismarketing; it's fraud. This is no inexact science.
So any car companies that claim their car can hit 100mph are perpetrating fraud because that's only possible under some conditions?
I do think it needs to be clarified and it may be slightly misleading, but I think jumping to calling it fraud is going a bit far when you don't even know if it was intentional or not.
Has anyone here sent in a complaint to whatever the US equivelent of the advertising standards agency is?
What about just contacting Newegg/ABS directly? You could also post it on their EggXpert forums. Apparently Newegg employees check there.
Well yes, if you haven't already contacted them then that's be a good first step. I was assuming that'd been done and the response either wasn't helpful or didn't come at all.
I don't have the board but something still sounds a little strange. For Wat to get that many keys to register means there's more than simple matrix tricks going on.
Wat, if you catch this thread maybe you can check again with QWAS?
It's just an intellectual curiousity really, I bet the OP is looking for a currently shipping board.
Anyone following this should use THIS TEST! (http://random.xem.us/rollover.html)
Just get the Filco Zero: http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87zeb. You'll be happier and have peace of mind if you did.
I think if you get the ABS, you are going to be disappointed if you are looking for a gaming keyboard. It's a great typer, and I enjoy mine, but if you are going to do any button mashing, I don't think it's going to work well for you. I would seriously consider saving the extra money, and getting a Filco with verifiable NKRO. The fact that you can't confidently buy the ABS tell me that you are going to regret the purchase in the long run.
Right now the only black alps boards I know of are the M1 and the AT101W.
This is a good point. I'd just like to be able to buy a keyboard with the keyswitches of my choosing without having to worry about whether or not it will hold up for gaming.
You can use any keyboard for gaming without a problem.
It depends how many simultaneous keypresses the keyboard supports.
Dear Valued Customer,
Thank you for contacting ABS.
We truly apologize for the inconvenience this may have caused you. According to our testing, the keyboard works well as we advertised. However, actually, we have also noticed some customers’ negative feedback regarding this. Please rest assured that we offer 1-year replacement warranty for this keyboard. Also, within 30 days from the purchase date, you are able to get a refund from our authorized resellers like Newegg and Chiefvalue. We will stand behind our product to assist you further.
Thank you so much for your patience and understanding. If you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us.
I have recently purchased one and I tried the link to a keyboard testing program here in the forums but I didn't really know what to look for?
See the wiki entry - linky. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Do+I+need+N-key+rollover%3F)
From a reviewer at Newegg:
Dear Valued Customer,
Thank you for your feedback.
We truly apologize for our delayed response and the inconvenience this may have caused you.
As to the 6 simultaneous keypresses you have mentioned, we have tested it via the test link that you have provided, M1 could reach maximum 6simultaneous keypresses. However, M1 is not with N-key rollover function, we could not ensure that there will not have any ghosting keys in the game.
Ah, now I get it.
Keyboard manufacturers have decided it's cheaper to use the MAXIMUM number of keys registered in their specs.
Well, THAT's convenient.
But they did claim this.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2992&stc=1&d=1246503679)
Defining "simultaneous keypress" should mean more than just pressing the keys and then nothing happening.
Dear Valued Customer,
Thank you for your feedback.
We truly apologize for the confusion. Our M1 does not have n-key rollover or anti-ghosting function. If you are player, we will not suggest you to purchase this model. The simultaneously 6-key press advertisement is incorrect. M1 could reach maximum 6simultaneous key presses. We have contacted our related department to modify it urgently.
Once again, we truly apologize for the unfavorable circumstance. If you have already purchased it, please reply to this email with your Newegg/Chiefvalue purchase invoice number, we will help you to refund it.
Wow, check out the latest reply I received:
I think they meant to say "M1 could NOT reach maximum 6 simultaneous key pressses", given the rest of the message. I suspect English is not the first language of their customer service department.
In any case, it looks like they acknowledged that their marketing for this keyboard is incorrect.
Maybe they will fix the keyboard to match the marketing instead of the other way around :wink:
There's even something almost endearing about the metallic ringing the keys make.
"I assume that sound is caused by the springs inside each key switch resonating and possibly interacting with the (likely metallic) back plate."
Anybody that has bought the board and returned it should really TRASH IT in the reviews. I'd do it in the Newegg support forum but it's not really appropriate there. Only way to keep the keyboard manufacturers honest.
Pros: Great clicky feel, heavy, and durable.
Cons: Very poor for gaming. The claim that it "Supports the use of maximum 6-key simultaneously" is very misleading, as it does not even support a minimum of three! Pressing W and two keys like AS or D causes the keyboard to lock up and not output anything at all. This is very disappointing for a gaming keyboard, which should be able to support pressing WASD (for gaming) simultaneously.
I've gamed on an AT101W with no issues, and AFAIK its rollover capabilities are no better than the M1.
Not true. Hitting some 3 keys all at the same time on the ABS would output absolutely nothing. The AT101W gives you at least 3 keys without blocking.
My M1 registers nothing at all when I press QWA. Clearly, this is another ongoing issue with the M1. I think you're probably better off just sticking with your AT101w...and I'm probably better off returning this M1 to Newegg and picking up an AT101w of my own. There's a guy who's selling them on eBay NIB for $20 BIN/MAO with free shipping, so I could probably get one for $15-16 or so.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Dell-104-Key-PS2-6P-USA-Keyboard-NEW-227KN_W0QQitemZ370211755944QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item56325717a8&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
227KN is the part number for AT101Ws
Thank you for your Email, we appreciate your feedback.
We truly apologize for the troubles you have encountered. We at Chief Value take all criticism as constructive so that we can use any useful suggestions to better our business practices and ourselves.
We have forwarded your thoughts to our related department to review. Then we have found that the simultaneously 6-key press advertisement is incorrect. M1 does not have n-key rollover or anti-ghosting function. Actually, it is not a gaming keyboard. It only could reach maximum 6simultaneous key presses.
We have contacted Newegg and ABS to modify this info on their website, it will be updated soon.
As you are our valued customer, after confirming with our upper management, we informed that we would like to issue an RMA for refund and the restocking fee will be waived. And we will make an exception to cover the return shipping fee, however it is up to $8.00, so we suggest you ship it back with UPS Ground. Please kindly reply to us with the shipping receipt once you ship it out. We will issue credit to your original payment account.
We have created RMA # for replacement for you. Please have the RMA # [snippy!] as your reference. Please kindly note all original equipment, components, manuals, cables, documents, packaging must be returned with your item in order for ChiefValue.com to process your RMA. Missing items will incur further charges or less of a refund. Please clearly mark the RMA number on the outside of your shipping box and send all the RMA items to the below location.
Send your RMA's to:
[Snippy!]
Further more please kindly note that RMA number will be voided after 15 days.
Please let us know if you have any further concerns.
I e-mailed Chief Value and told them that they, Newegg, and ABS should take down the misleading information on the M1 and refund my money. Here's what I got back:
It looks like they're well aware of the problem now and taking steps to correct it. And so am I; I'll be dropping off my M1 at the UPS store when I go out today.
Then we have found that the simultaneously 6-key press advertisement is incorrect. M1 does not have n-key rollover or anti-ghosting function. Actually, it is not a gaming keyboard. It only could reach maximum 6simultaneous key presses.
Keyboard manufacturers have decided it's cheaper to use the MAXIMUM number of keys registered in their specs.
First they say the 6-key rollover advertisement is incorrect, then they say it could reach a maximum of 6 simultaneous key presses?
The overall wording of the message suggests they are aware of the problem, but their choice of words makes the message confusing.
I've gamed with non-NKRO boards my whole life without issue up until this point. Heck, I used a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 just fine for years before two drops of water killed it. What surprises me about this M1 is that I've seen it experience rollover issues in situations I'm sure my old 4000 wouldn't have. Then again, it could just be that I'm being overly sensitive since I'm admittedly a little miffed at ABS.
I don't know if there are other part numbers, but here's a pic of my AT101W.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2993&stc=1&d=1246525282)
Dear Valued Customer,
Thank you for your feedback.
We truly apologize for the inconvenience. It cannot support n-key rollover or anti-ghosting function. The simultaneously 6-key press description is incorrect. If key is in the same row, it could reach maximum 6simultaneous key presses.
Thank you so much for your patience and understanding. If you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us.
Oooo... This is getting better. Now ABS is admitting the "error". Some poor marketing guy is being called into his boss's office about now. He's saying, "CURSE YOU GEEKHACK!"
I just recieved my ABS today and I am actually pretty happy with the construction and overall build. I game pretty regularly and n-key is really nice. After a bunch of testing I found a bunch of rollover issues.
The problems I found:
-The "Q" key when used with any number of keys from other rows beyond a total of 2 keys will produce nothing.
-The "W" key when used with any number of keys from other rows will produce the same results as the "Q" key.
-The "E" key when used with the "D" key in any arrangement of 3 or more keys will produce nothing.
-Most 4+ button combinations that use keys from separate rows will produce nothing. The key combinations that do work for 4 keys are asdv qwef zxc (that is zxc(SPACE)) 123r 234y 789p 890\ q890 q789 asdv asdb asdn... I'm not sure if you guys can see the pattern from this but for some reason keys directly beneath any given set of keys (from multiple rows) pressed simultaniously do not work. If you were to map the keyboard into a grid then it's easy to see that for some reason there is a pattern.
-The three button combinations 345, 456, 567, and 678 return nothing when pressed simultaniously.
I think I've covered everything I've found in the past 20 minutes. :) Feel free to use this information for your benefit, geekhack. I'm happy to contribute.
Dear Valued Customer,
Thank you for your feedback.
It could reach maximum 6 simultaneous key presses that mean 6 is the maximum. We have tested it via http://random.xem.us/rollover.html that you have mentioned in your email. However, M1 does not have n-key rollover or anti-ghosting. We cannot press QWAS simultaneously. If press ASDFGH, most of the time, it works. M1 is not a gaming keyboard, we are sorry for this.
Thank you so much for your patience and understanding. If you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us.
M1 is not a gaming keyboard? Let me check the box again, lol. Special K, this is NOT a bad keyboard for $44. I'm thinking of taking it apart and seeing if I can't fix these issues, that is unless there are blockers set up in the firmware.
I don't know about everyone else's AT101W, but my M1 feels nothing like my AT101W.
The feel of the Dell is inconsistent across the board. For most of the keys, I cannot for the life of me feel the tactile bump. All I feel is a linear action with friction, no matter how slowly I press the key. However, there are a few keys which do have a noticeable tactile bump and have a bit less friction. (My AT101W was purchased NIB)
The ABS M1 on the other hand has a much more consistent key feel, little to no friction, and a very noticeable tactile bump. It's not very surprising that the M1 feels better since I thought white alps copies felt better than the real thing as well, but the difference here was HUGE. The AT101W is my least favorite board in terms of feel, yet I find the M1 to be quite nice.
Does it say that anywhere on the keyboard? Do the AT101Ws use any other part numbers? I checked mine and didn't see 227KN anywhere on the board. All I found was DP/N 077EUG. I assume DP/N is Dell Part Number.
Has anyone with an M1 verified whether you can do 6 simultaneous keypresses in the same row?
M1 is not a gaming keyboard? Let me check the box again, lol. Special K, this is NOT a bad keyboard for $44. I'm thinking of taking it apart and seeing if I can't fix these issues, that is unless there are blockers set up in the firmware.
The ABS M1 on the other hand has a much more consistent key feel, little to no friction, and a very noticeable tactile bump. It's not very surprising that the M1 feels better since I thought white alps copies felt better than the real thing as well, but the difference here was HUGE. The AT101W is my least favorite board in terms of feel, yet I find the M1 to be quite nice.
Which type of simplified alps does the M1 use? Has anyone taken a switch apart yet? I'd also be interested in knowing which spring it uses.
I've got a keyboard with clicky Type 1 simplified and I much prefer the complicated blacks in my AT102W but the M1 and Filco appear to be Costar rather than Strongman so maybe their type of simplfiied alps are nicer.
It's an inherant part of the design rather than something easily fixed, but you might be able to install diodes between every key which would solve the problem, details on here the matrix works and how you can fix it with diodes here (http://www.dribin.org/dave/keyboard/one_html/).
But they did claim this.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2992&stc=1&d=1246503679)
Defining "simultaneous 6-key press" should mean more than just pressing six keys and then some not registering.
you twit bro?
I don't know if these are the kind of pictures you had in mind, but here's the internals of the M1's black alpsShow Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3050&stc=1&d=1246963946)Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3051&stc=1&d=1246963946)
Hmm. I'd think that they already have the diodes in and the problems occurred due to buggy ghosting suppression or somesuch. Looks like that's a bit more involved with NKRO boards.
It's an inherant part of the design rather than something easily fixed, but you might be able to install diodes between every key which would solve the problem, details on here the matrix works and how you can fix it with diodes here (http://www.dribin.org/dave/keyboard/one_html/).
The keyboard controller for a regular 2KRO board has to perform ghosting suppression. A key pattern that is invalid on these may well be valid on a board with diodes. Pressing all 4 keys in a 2x2 matrix segment would still be treated as a fault condition. For 3 it might work.
So you can try it, but if you're unlucky the board will have no better rollover capability than before. Best try it with a small part of the matrix only.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Why would pressing all 4 keys in a 2x2 matrix still not be valid if each key had a diode added?
And yes, I would start by only trying this on a 2x2 grid that is known to give problems, such as QWAS.
The controller isn't aware that there are diodes in place, and therefore has to assume the 4th key press is a phantom. Basically the controller is designed to detect these conditions, and doesn't know if they are generated by intentional key presses, or phantom key presses (even if you later install diodes to prevent the latter).
So basically you're saying the microcontroller is programmed to know which key combinations are possible and which aren't, and automatically blocks ones that it knows aren't consistent with the way the keyboard was initially manufactured?
Correct.
In that case I'm feeling much less confident about my idea to add diodes.
Sorry keyb_gr, didn't mean to hijack your responses like this.
Diodes aren't really anything magical, they are just the electronics equivalent of a one way valve. They allow current to flow in one direction, but not in the other.
The controller design is actually much simpler if diodes are in place, as you don't have to worry about check for, or handling inconsistent conditions.
Right, I'm familiar with how diodes work. It's just that when part of the key blocking is being handled by the microcontroller, there's nothing I can do about that. In theory, adding diodes seems like it should work if the microcontroller wasn't using a pre-programmed list of what key combinations were and were not possible.
Basically it depends on if they designed the firmware to detect the condition that could cause phantom key presses (in the previous example the qas keys being pressed), or if it was designed to detect the resulting condition (registering qwas being pressed).
Well on another subject my ABS M1's paint on the keys is wearing off! What a piece of SH**! It;s only 2 months old. What a mistake this thing was.
Show Image(http://www.abs.com/graphics/images/m1_kybrd_dtl_collage.jpg)
Under "Mechanical Switch"
Of course in Marketing we would say "hey, we just promised simultaneously 6-key press. We never said what would HAPPEN if you push the keys."
Oh GOD.
I cannot believe the gall of companies that claim 'decreased latency' from gold-plating the bloody GROUND CONNECTION.
That right there should tell you that the company's marketing department lies like a dog.
Oh GOD.
I cannot believe the gall of companies that claim 'decreased latency' from gold-plating the bloody GROUND CONNECTION.
That right there should tell you that the company's marketing department lies like a dog.
Oh GOD.
I cannot believe the gall of companies that claim 'decreased latency' from gold-plating the bloody GROUND CONNECTION.
That right there should tell you that the company's marketing department lies like a dog.
Seriously, though, has anyone ever seen a keyboard lag? I mean, other than throwing 150 WPM at Word 2007 running on a 386?
Seriously, though, has anyone ever seen a keyboard lag?