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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: asgeirtj on Mon, 15 September 2014, 10:27:54

Title: Profile on function row
Post by: asgeirtj on Mon, 15 September 2014, 10:27:54: I was wondering why the function row is generally lower than the number row, I know the keycaps have the same profile but the keyboard just has a bigger hole where the function row goes. This confuses me since i thought the reason for variable height in keys would be to bring the keycap to your fingers, however when pressing the function keys you have to labor to reach it. I guess it's a part of the philosophy of having the function keys farther away so it won't be pressed accidentally?

In any case, this is bad for me. I bought a noppoo choc mini specifically to get the function row as close as possible as I use them to switch locations in Starcraft II. A big flaw however is that the function row is lower than the number row so I have to reach for the keys which makes me slower. So I have two questions, is this like this on every keyboard? And as I use cherry profile keycaps, I can alleviate this issue to some extent by having oem keys on the top row. However this makes the keys merely the same height instead of the f row being taller. So are there any keysets which have a taller profile than oem? I know about http://www.keyboardco.com/product/double_shot_filco_104_key_usa_keyset.asp (http://www.keyboardco.com/product/double_shot_filco_104_key_usa_keyset.asp) but it is SA, contoured(that what it's called, i mean regular shape?) would be preferred. Also, it would be a plus if this set were to be with a similar texture and thickness to gmk abs.
Title: Re: Profile on function row
Post by: Hyde on Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:02:46: Typically manufactures use the same profile on top 2 rows and bottom 2 rows to save cost. That way they don't need to develop new molds for different shape.

That being said, KBT Race II and the new Vortex Double shot keycaps do have a higher profile on function rows.

Race II Example: http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=762

Vortex Keycaps Example: http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=773

Some of the new Signature Plastics DSA also have a new row 5.

:)
Title: Re: Profile on function row
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:08:09: There are some older Cherry boards that had row F profile, which is extra tall. Perhaps you can quest for some of those? Best bet is to hunt on 1000 series models. I may try and offer it again in future groupbuy, but there wasn't enough interested in that last time.
(http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/images/mx_keydim_cyl.gif)
Title: Re: Profile on function row
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:27:31: Quote from: asgeirtj on Mon, 15 September 2014, 10:27:54
So I have two questions, is this like this on every keyboard?
A few keycap manufacturers do still offer them to customers. Signature Plastics has 1×1 keys in the DCS family but I've never seen it. Maybe it will be possible to get them in a group order.

There are vintage keyboards with special function row. I have some really yellowed, shiny, keys that are otherwise in Cherry profile but not made by Cherry.
The Kinesis Advantage has thumb-keys in Function row OEM profile - these are quite tall and wobbly.
Title: Re: Profile on function row
Post by: asgeirtj on Mon, 15 September 2014, 14:51:07: Quote from: Hyde on Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:02:46
Typically manufactures use the same profile on top 2 rows and bottom 2 rows to save cost. That way they don't need to develop new molds for different shape.

That being said, KBT Race II and the new Vortex Double shot keycaps do have a higher profile on function rows.

Race II Example: http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=762

Vortex Keycaps Example: http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=773

Some of the new Signature Plastics DSA also have a new row 5.

:)

Wow thx, just ordered the vortex keycaps.
Title: Re: Profile on function row
Post by: Hyde on Mon, 15 September 2014, 15:22:17: Quote from: asgeirtj on Mon, 15 September 2014, 14:51:07
Quote from: Hyde on Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:02:46
Typically manufactures use the same profile on top 2 rows and bottom 2 rows to save cost. That way they don't need to develop new molds for different shape.

That being said, KBT Race II and the new Vortex Double shot keycaps do have a higher profile on function rows.

Race II Example: http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=762

Vortex Keycaps Example: http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=773

Some of the new Signature Plastics DSA also have a new row 5.

:)

Wow thx, just ordered the vortex keycaps.

Awesome I'm glad that was helpful. Did you check out the other color choices at least? (I think there are black, green, yellow, orange, red, pink and blue)

:P
Title: Re: Profile on function row
Post by: asgeirtj on Tue, 16 September 2014, 03:49:55: Yeah ordererd the black one, with white legends. Should fit best with my charred orange :)
Title: Re: Profile on function row
Post by: Hyde on Tue, 16 September 2014, 14:51:15: lol nice good choice ! :thumb:
Title: Re: Profile on function row
Post by: asgeirtj on Mon, 20 October 2014, 16:31:06: More on this: The vortex keycaps are ok but i seriously dislike oem compared to cherry. I was wondering if bigger feet/more severe angle on the keybaord might mitigate the issue when using same profile for row 4 and 5?

I got the idea when I saw this picture: http://i.imgur.com/UZwOLHO.jpg , seems like it is more angled than regular keyboards.

Also, this keyset: http://i.imgur.com/nMLwjvE.jpg seems to be cherry profile with a higher function row, anyone know which set this is?
Title: Re: Profile on function row
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 21 October 2014, 01:30:22: Maybe one of Ivan's GMK Dolch GB sets with FnA pack will come up in the Classifieds section soon, or you can wait for his next GB which will hopefully include the F and A rows, too. Otherwise some old Cherry boards have the full set of profiles if you can find 'em, as Ivan says.

In terms of F key placement, any key above the number row you have to move your hand for, whether it's directly above it or placed further away, so that's one possible reason for the cheaper option of same profile caps as number row being considered acceptable. Also the fact that they're easy enough to index to by touch, so a profile difference isn't needed from that perspective. 75% boards weren't really on the radar when designing these set profiles, though. So the full set of 6 profiles is rare.

Raising the back can help, but it messes with the heights of the rest of the rows relative to each other which I would consider as more important for typing. Perhaps you can raise the back only when gaming?
Title: Re: Profile on function row
Post by: asgeirtj on Wed, 19 November 2014, 10:25:19: Quote from: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:08:09
There are some older Cherry boards that had row F profile, which is extra tall. Perhaps you can quest for some of those? Best bet is to hunt on 1000 series models. I may try and offer it again in future groupbuy, but there wasn't enough interested in that last time.
Show Image
(http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/images/mx_keydim_cyl.gif)

I would be very interested in a F'n'A set ^^

I've been searching 1000 series boards and finding some. However don't really know from the pictures if it has a special F row profile. I should notice it if I see though right, it must be that tall? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cherry-Tastatur-G80-1800-Qualitativ-hochwertige-Tastatur-/271668141008?pt=DE_Computing_Tastaturen_Keypads&hash=item3f40aedbd0

This for example doesn't have it am I right? Also do those old boards have thick caps like in the gmk groupbuys?
Title: Re: Profile on function row
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 19 November 2014, 13:45:07: FnA didn't make it in Dolch. The next buy will have them by default as it's all about the retro.

If old G80/G81 have F profile it should be pretty obvious if there is an angled or side view photo included in the listing. They are quite noticeably taller than the numbers row. If it's only top down it's pretty tough to tell.
Title: Re: Profile on function row
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 November 2014, 15:22:54: Quote from: Findecanor on Mon, 15 September 2014, 11:27:31
A few keycap manufacturers do still offer them to customers. Signature Plastics has 1×1 keys in the DCS family but I've never seen it. Maybe it will be possible to get them in a group order.
I have some samples of these, and will be taking pictures some day soon. They’re just slightly shorter than SA row 2/4, and about the same top angle.