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HUGE Thanks goes out to Skcheng for my first Buckling Spring IBM Space Saving Keyboard! 87' Model, I love the legends! I have performed the floss mod as well, it sounds great.
This is a beautiful restoration done by Phosphorglow, big thanks to you too for this amazing restore. Fantastic job throughout the entire board!
Better than new - nice one! :D
I started out using an IBM Model M. More recently, I discovered the Model F and found the capacitive buckling springs even better than the membrane buckling springs in the Model M. More recently still, I discovered Topre switches, My daily drive at work is now a HHKB Pro 2, and my daily driver at home is a Realforce 87u 55g.
I've also tried just about every Cherry mx switch, NMB Hi-Tek blacks and whites, and many varieties of Alps. None of these was as satisfying to me as buckling springs or Topres.
I have tried to analyze why I like buckling springs and Topres so much. I think it has to do with the force curve of these switches. The way I type is to bottom out on every keyststroke. With buckling springs and Topres, there is a definite yet smooth tactile bump at the actuation point and a natural follow-through to the bottom without increased resistance. This is especially well executed with the Topre switches, which to me feel like weighted piano keys on a real piano keyboard.
Recently, I tried Cherry mx Clear switches and didn't like them at all. I think the reason is twofold: the tactile bump feels gritty rather than smooth, and rather than a low-resistance follow through to the bottom, there is a sharply increasing force that resists bottoming out. Some people like this effect, as it purportedly promotes touch typing by preventing bottoming out, but for me, it feels like I am fighting against the switch instead of it doing my bidding.
what you need next is topre mx sliders. ;3
what you need next is topre mx sliders. ;3
I'm actually happy without those. There are just too many options with MX.... It's tiring to have so many options. Which is another reason why I like BS and Topre.
what you need next is topre mx sliders. ;3
I'm actually happy without those. There are just too many options with MX.... It's tiring to have so many options. Which is another reason why I like BS and Topre.
The force curve is not for me, though. I want more tactile feedback, and I don't like bottoming out. The Topre switches at 55g are too heavy and the 45g switches are not tactile enough. When I go from Topre to a decade-old Key Tronic OEM keyboard (the CHEAP one, not the Ergo Force), I almost prefer the Key Tronic actually. My preference is lubricated Cherry MX Clear.
If only Cherry MX Clears were lubed and sticker-modified from the factory, and always came with highly-textured Cherry-profile thick PBT caps, then they would start to approach the feel of quality that you get from using a Topre Realforce keyboard.I got some brand new clears last year and they had lubed stems out of the box.
Did you try the 45g on a HHKB or a Realforce? IMO, 45g RFs are mushy feeling. 45g HHKB feels completely different. More tactile and snappy. 55g RF is nice. Not as noisy as HHKB. 55g HHKB is great though.
Yeah...HHKB and the 660c are a bit more snappy...when I first got a RF after using a HHKB I thought it was EXTREMELY mushy (part of it is I got a variable) almost annoying...but after awhile you appreciate them for their differences...
Yeah...HHKB and the 660c are a bit more snappy...when I first got a RF after using a HHKB I thought it was EXTREMELY mushy (part of it is I got a variable) almost annoying...but after awhile you appreciate them for their differences...
You know, I never typed on a HHKB ever and I've always been super curious. I've always wanted one, but the 45g is what turns me away. I know I can do the 55g rubber cup mod, but idk. How does it feel "different"?
Yeah...HHKB and the 660c are a bit more snappy...when I first got a RF after using a HHKB I thought it was EXTREMELY mushy (part of it is I got a variable) almost annoying...but after awhile you appreciate them for their differences...
You know, I never typed on a HHKB ever and I've always been super curious. I've always wanted one, but the 45g is what turns me away. I know I can do the 55g rubber cup mod, but idk. How does it feel "different"?
They're slightly stiffer (seems like) than the RF 45g but definitely NOT the same as RF 55g. There is some variance in the stiffness for each key but lets just assume RF is 45g (it doesn't matter but lets just say) then I'd say something like the HHKB is 48g.
I don't actually think the rubber is different..there is something that is making it feel that way.
The 660c I've seen much bigger variances in how they feel..anywhere from in between the RF and HHKB to close to RF55g..
Author Topic: Why is topre so good?
As to why Topre switches feel good to type on, I think it largely comes down to the force-displacement curve. I have been taking a good look at this phenomenon, and I plan to do a detailed post on it in a separate thread that will also deal with two other questions: (1) why people who like Topre might also like buckling springs, and (2) why both Topre and buckling springs are different in typing feel from any Cherry mx switch.
I need to do more research on the force-displacement curves, but I think the Topre rubber dome undergoes a smooth, yet catastrophic, collapse near the actuation point similar to the catastrophic collapse of the buckling spring in IBM capacitive and membrane buckling spring switches.
In contrast, I think that some other rubber dome and membrane switches might not undergo a catastrophic collapse, but instead act alike a linear rubber spring.
With Topre and buckling spring switches, there is a decrease in force after the actuation point before the force increases again as the displacement continues toward the bottom of the keystroke. With Cherry switches, there is no decrease in force after the actuation point; instead the force increases after the actuation point.
In my case at least, I think the reason I prefer both IBM buckling springs (both capacitive and membrane) and Topre is that the force curves have the similar feature of reflecting a collapse (rubber dome or buckling spring) at the actuation point accompanied by a decrease in force before the force rises again. And the reason I do not like any of the Cherry mx switches as much as Topre or IBM buckling spring is that all Cherry mx switches have an increasing force from actuation throughout the remainder of the downward displacement.
After I have done more homework on this, I will follow up with some direct comparisons of force-displacement curves of the various switches.
You're on the winning team now.
I need to do more research on the force-displacement curves, but I think the Topre rubber dome undergoes a smooth, yet catastrophic, collapse near the actuation point similar to the catastrophic collapse of the buckling spring in IBM capacitive and membrane buckling spring switches.
In contrast, I think that some other rubber dome and membrane switches might not undergo a catastrophic collapse, but instead act alike a linear rubber spring.
With Topre and buckling spring switches, there is a decrease in force after the actuation point before the force increases again as the displacement continues toward the bottom of the keystroke. With Cherry switches, there is no decrease in force after the actuation point; instead the force increases after the actuation point.
In my case at least, I think the reason I prefer both IBM buckling springs (both capacitive and membrane) and Topre is that the force curves have the similar feature of reflecting a collapse (rubber dome or buckling spring) at the actuation point accompanied by a decrease in force before the force rises again. And the reason I do not like any of the Cherry mx switches as much as Topre or IBM buckling spring is that all Cherry mx switches have an increasing force from actuation throughout the remainder of the downward displacement.