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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: [esc] on Thu, 02 October 2014, 06:31:45

Title: [IDEA] Need feedback on my symmetrical Mini Grid Layout. [UPDATE]
Post by: [esc] on Thu, 02 October 2014, 06:31:45
[attachimg=8]

Thanks for the replies! The feedback I got was very, very good and it made me realise that my layout really sucked! I have scrapped it and come up with an entirely new layout. It's a bit bigger, so it's not 40% anymore, though. What size would you say this keyboard is?

Some notable features:

I need feedback on:





Main Layer:
[attachimg=5]

Alt-Layer (NOTE: Character positioning is not final. Suggestions welcome):
[attachimg=7]

Function-Layer:
[attachimg=6]

raw-data for keyboard-layout-editor.com (http://keyboard-layout-editor.com)
More
Main
Code: [Select]
{backcolor:"#2a2a2a"},
[{y:0.25,x:0.25,c:"#212224",t:"#7d8181",p:"DSA"},"",{a:7,f:7},"",{c:"#4e5156"},"Q",";",{c:"#212224"},"","","","",{c:"#4e5156"},"Z","Ζ",{c:"#212224"},"",{a:4,f:3},"",{x:0.25,t:"#4e5156",a:7,f:6},"⎔"],
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[{x:0.25,c:"#293649",t:"#7d8181",f:5},"⎈",{c:"#4e5156",f:7},"A","R","S","T","D","H","N","E","I","O",{c:"#293649",f:5},"⎈"],
[{x:0.25,c:"#373738",f:4},"ƒ",{c:"#293649"},"⇧",{c:"#4e5156",f:7},"X","C","V","B","K","M","Ψ","Ε",{c:"#293649",f:4},"⇧",{c:"#373738"},"ƒ",{c:"#4e5156",f:5},""],
[{x:1.25,c:"#733636",f:4},"⎋",{c:"#373738",w:1.25},"⌘","⌥",{w:1.75},"⏎\n\n\n\n\n\n⏎",{f:7,w:1.75},"–––",{f:4},"⌥",{w:1.25},"⌘",{c:"#733636",a:5,f:9},"–\n–\n\n\n\n\n–",{c:"#4e5156",a:7,f:3},"","",""]
Alt
Code: [Select]
{backcolor:"#2a2a2a"},
[{y:0.25,x:0.25,c:"#212224",t:"#7d8181",p:"DSA"},"","",{c:"#4e5156",a:5,f:5},"\n@",{a:4,f:3},"",{c:"#212224"},"","","","",{c:"#4e5156",a:5,f:5},"\n&","~\n`",{c:"#212224",a:4,f:3},"","",{x:0.25,t:"#4e5156",a:7,f:6},"⎔"],
[{x:0.25,c:"#293649",t:"#7d8181",f:4},"⇥",{c:"#4e5156",f:5},"7","5","3","1","9","0","2","4","6","8",{c:"#293649",f:4},"⌫",{x:0.25,c:"#212224",t:"#4e5156"},"⇪"],
[{x:0.25,c:"#293649",t:"#7d8181",f:5},"⎈",{c:"#4e5156",a:5},"?\n/","—\n–","+\n=","\"\n'","{\n[","}\n]","\n(","\n)",":\n;","|\n\\",{c:"#293649",a:7},"⎈"],
[{x:0.25,c:"#373738",f:4},"ƒ",{c:"#293649"},"⇧",{c:"#4e5156",a:5,f:5},"\n!","\n#","\n*","\n%","\n$","\n^","\n<","\n>",{c:"#293649",a:7,f:4},"⇧",{c:"#373738"},"ƒ",{c:"#4e5156",f:5},""],
[{x:1.25,c:"#733636",f:4},"⎋",{c:"#373738",w:1.25},"⌘","⌥",{w:1.75},"⏎\n\n\n\n\n\n⏎",{f:7,w:1.75},"–––",{f:4},"⌥",{w:1.25},"⌘",{c:"#733636",a:5,f:9},"–\n–\n\n\n\n\n–",{c:"#4e5156",a:7,f:3},"","",""]
Funciton
Code: [Select]
{backcolor:"#2a2a2a"},
[{y:0.25,x:0.25,c:"#212224",t:"#7d8181",p:"DSA",a:7,f:4},"F1","F2",{c:"#4e5156"},"F3","F4",{c:"#212224"},"F5","F6","F7","F8",{c:"#4e5156"},"F9","F10",{c:"#212224"},"F11","F12",{x:0.25,t:"#4e5156",f:6},"⎔"],
[{x:0.25,c:"#293649",t:"#7d8181",f:4},"⇥",{c:"#4e5156",a:4,f:3},"","","","","","","","","","",{c:"#293649",a:7,f:4},"⌫",{x:0.25,c:"#212224",t:"#4e5156"},"⇪"],
[{x:0.25,c:"#293649",t:"#7d8181",f:5},"⎈",{c:"#4e5156",a:4,f:3},"","","","","","","","","","",{c:"#293649",a:7,f:5},"⎈"],
[{x:0.25,c:"#373738",f:4},"ƒ",{c:"#293649"},"⇧",{c:"#4e5156",a:4,f:3},"","","","","","","","",{c:"#293649",a:7,f:4},"⇧",{c:"#373738"},"ƒ",{c:"#4e5156",f:5},""],
[{x:1.25,c:"#733636",f:4},"⎋",{c:"#373738",w:1.25},"⌘","⌥",{w:1.75},"⏎\n\n\n\n\n\n⏎",{f:7,w:1.75},"–––",{f:4},"⌥",{w:1.25},"⌘",{c:"#733636",a:5,f:9},"–\n–\n\n\n\n\n–",{c:"#4e5156",a:7,f:3},"","",""]
Blank
Code: [Select]
{backcolor:"#2a2a2a"},
[{y:0.25,x:0.25,c:"#212224",t:"#7d8181",p:"DSA"},"","",{c:"#4e5156"},"","",{c:"#212224"},"","","","",{c:"#4e5156"},"","",{c:"#212224"},"","",{x:0.25,t:"#4e5156",a:7,f:6},"⎔"],
[{x:0.25,c:"#293649",t:"#7d8181",f:4},"⇥",{c:"#4e5156",a:4,f:3},"","","","","","","","","","",{c:"#293649",a:7,f:4},"⌫",{x:0.25,c:"#212224",t:"#4e5156"},"⇪"],
[{x:0.25,c:"#293649",t:"#7d8181",f:5},"⎈",{c:"#4e5156",a:4,f:3},"","","","","","","","","","",{c:"#293649",a:7,f:5},"⎈"],
[{x:0.25,c:"#373738",f:4},"ƒ",{c:"#293649"},"⇧",{c:"#4e5156",a:4,f:3},"","","","","","","","",{c:"#293649",a:7,f:4},"⇧",{c:"#373738"},"ƒ",{c:"#4e5156",f:5},""],
[{x:1.25,c:"#733636",f:4},"⎋",{c:"#373738",w:1.25},"⌘","⌥",{w:1.75},"⏎\n\n\n\n\n\n⏎",{f:7,w:1.75},"–––",{f:4},"⌥",{w:1.25},"⌘",{c:"#733636",a:5,f:9},"–\n–\n\n\n\n\n–",{c:"#4e5156",a:7,f:3},"","",""]

Old post:
More
Fed up with the asymetric QWERTY-layout and inspired by JD's SmallFry Keyboard (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47133.0) and ne0phyte's Tiny Hacking Keyboard (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/thkb-tiny-hacking-keyboard-40-t6455.html), I made this mockup. It's a symetrical, column-layout keyboard where the Idea is to have all keys easily within easy reach. It also has enough keys for Scandinavian 29-letter languages like Norwegian and Swedish. What do you guys think? Editor link here (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_y:0.25&x:1.25&c=%23ba1312&t=%23e4dedd&w:1.25%3B&=Esc&_c=%23e4dedd&t=%23000000%2F%2F%3B&=%0AQ%0A%0A%0A1&=%0AW%0A%0A%0A2&=%0AE%0A%0A%0A3&=%0AR%0A%0A%0A4&=%0AT&=%0AY&=%0AU&=%0AI%0A%0A%E2%86%91&=%0AO&=%0AP&_w:1.25%3B&=%0A%0A%E2%8C%AB%3B&@_x:1.25&c=%23ddd3c0&w:1.25%3B&=%E2%87%A5&=%0AA%0A%0A%0A5&=%0AS%0A%0A%0A6&=%0AD%0A%0A%0A7&=%0AF%0A%0A%0A8&_c=%23e4dedd%3B&=%0AG&=%0AH&_c=%23ddd3c0%3B&=%0AJ%0A%0A%E2%86%90&=%0AK%0A%0A%E2%86%93&=%0AL%0A%0A%E2%86%92&=%22%0A'&_w:1.25%3B&=%0A%0A%E2%8F%8E%3B&@_x:1.25&c=%23249c78&w:1.25%3B&=%E2%87%A7%0A%0A%CB%9A&_c=%23e4dedd%3B&=%0AZ&=%0AX&=%0AC%0A%0A%0A9&=%0AV%0A%0A%0A0&=%0AB&=%0AN&=%0AM&=%0A,%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3C&=%0A.%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3E&=%0A%2F%2F%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3F&_c=%23249c78&w:1.25%3B&=%CB%9A%0A%0A%E2%87%A7%3B&@_x:1.25&c=%230073a2&w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_c=%23ddd3c0%3B&=Alt&_w:1.25%3B&=%E2%8C%98&_c=%23f5d793&f2:9&w:1.75%3B&=%E2%88%82&_a:5&f2:3%3B&=%E2%88%822&=%E2%88%823&_a:4&w:1.75%3B&=Space&_c=%23ddd3c0&w:1.25%3B&=%E2%8C%98&=Alt&_c=%230073a2&w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl%3B&@_y:0.75&x:1.25&c=%23ba1312&t=%23e4dedd&w:1.25%3B&=Esc&_c=%23e4dedd&t=%23000000%2F%2F%3B&=%0AQ%0A%0A%0A1&=%0AW%0A%0A%0A2&=%0AE%0A%0A%0A3&=%0AR%0A%0A%0A4&=%0AT&=%0AY&=%0AU&=%0AI%0A%0A%E2%86%91&=%0AO&=%0AP&_w:1.25%3B&=%0A%0A%E2%8C%AB%3B&@_x:1.25&c=%23ddd3c0&w:1.25%3B&=%E2%87%A5&=%0AA%0A%0A%0A5&=%0AS%0A%0A%0A6&=%0AD%0A%0A%0A7&=%0AF%0A%0A%0A8&_c=%23e4dedd%3B&=%0AG&=%0AH&_c=%23ddd3c0%3B&=%0AJ%0A%0A%E2%86%90&=%0AK%0A%0A%E2%86%93&=%0AL%0A%0A%E2%86%92&=,%0A.&_w:1.25%3B&=%0A%0A%E2%8F%8E%3B&@_x:1.25&c=%23249c78&w:1.25%3B&=%E2%87%A7%0A%0A%CB%9A&_c=%23e4dedd%3B&=%0AZ&=%0AX&=%0AC%0A%0A%0A9&=%0AV%0A%0A%0A0&=%0AB&=%0AN&=%0AM&=%0A%C3%98&=%0A%C3%85&=%0A%C3%86&_c=%23249c78&w:1.25%3B&=%CB%9A%0A%0A%E2%87%A7%3B&@_x:1.25&c=%230073a2&w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_c=%23ddd3c0%3B&=Alt&_w:1.25%3B&=%E2%8C%98&_c=%23f5d793&f2:9&w:1.75%3B&=%E2%88%82&_a:5&f2:3%3B&=%E2%88%822&=%E2%88%823&_a:4&w:1.75%3B&=Space&_c=%23ddd3c0&w:1.25%3B&=%E2%8C%98&=Alt&_c=%230073a2&w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl%3B&@_y:1&x:1.25&w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_c=%23ddd3c0&w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_w:1.25%3B&=%E2%8C%98&_c=%23f5d793&f2:9&w:2%3B&=%E2%88%82&_a:5&f2:3%3B&=%E2%88%822&_a:4&w:2%3B&=Space&_c=%23ddd3c0&w:1.25%3B&=%E2%8C%98&_w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_c=%230073a2&w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl)

[NOTE]: The ∂-key is made up. It's basically a function key.
[attachimg=1]

Custom Nordic layout
[attachimg=2]


Alternative layout for modifier keys
[attachimg=3]


I recently found out that I only use one thumb on the spacebar, so a long spacebar is an extreme waste of space on such a tiny keyboard. The keyboard is symetrical, so swapping the ∂ and the space key is possible for lefties.

Split Layout
[attachimg=4]
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT]: Custom 40% Layout. NORWAY and US compatible. Opinions?
Post by: Nuum on Thu, 02 October 2014, 10:46:13
You might want to take a look at the Planck Keyboard (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62471.msg1460936). It has a very similar layout.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT]: Custom 40% Layout. NORWAY and US compatible. Opinions?
Post by: [esc] on Thu, 02 October 2014, 14:34:21
Quote from: Nuum on Thu, 02 October 2014, 10:46:13
You might want to take a look at the Planck Keyboard (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62471.msg1460936). It has a very similar layout.

Wow, such similar! Thanks! The layout is very interesting, looks like a smart layout, well except for that space bar... How can you even use it? It's just in the completely wrong place, no? :P I normally type with my right thumb resting under the J key. Maybe it's because of the trackpad on my laptop. I'll take a look at it.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT]: Custom 40% Layout. NORWAY and US compatible. Opinions?
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 02 October 2014, 15:00:50
Quote from: [esc] on Thu, 02 October 2014, 14:34:21
The [Planck keyboard] layout is very interesting, looks like a smart layout, well except for that space bar... How can you even use it? It's just in the completely wrong place, no? :P I normally type with my right thumb resting under the J key.
I suspect they pushed through to a production run without ever actually testing their layout. Because as you say, the spacebar is in a very awkward spot. (They obviously produced a prototype to take a photo, but I wonder if anyone took that prototype and used it for 3–4 weeks full time.)

Then again, I think a pure matrix board is somewhat awkward in general, especially if there’s no extra hand separation.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT]: Custom 40% Layout. NORWAY and US compatible. Opinions?
Post by: p3lim on Mon, 06 October 2014, 00:46:57
I went from the scandinavic ISO layout to US ANSI last year, and instead of doing anything really fancy with my layout I ended up using a compose key (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key) instead.
I don't really write that much in my native language anyways, it's mostly in english or some programming language, and ANSI is just silly superior for such work.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT]: Custom 40% Layout. NORWAY and US compatible. Opinions?
Post by: vvp on Mon, 06 October 2014, 04:59:22
Quote from: p3lim on Mon, 06 October 2014, 00:46:57
I went from the scandinavic ISO layout to US ANSI last year, and instead of doing anything really fancy with my layout I ended up using a compose key (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key) instead.
+1 for compose key. It is a great thing for rarely used characters.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT]: Custom 40% Layout. NORWAY and US compatible. Opinions?
Post by: pyro on Mon, 06 October 2014, 17:24:19
I like that you broke up the 3x3 cluster of the standard numpad, but do you have a reason for the digit positions? Why don't you start with 1234 on the homerow (see Benford's Law*)? What's the number modifier and where are all the symbols?

I'd be hesitant to place the arrow keys in a modifier-activated layer. Depending on the modifier you might have to use two hands to activate them, which would make navigating and selecting with ctrl/shift+arrowkeys harder.

I'm also not sure if losing the key-staggering in a square sized keyboard and discarding the function- and number-rows actually are benefits. I've grown quite fond of these rows on my laptop since I've remapped them to navigation keys. But I like what you did with the bottom row.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27s_law
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT]: Custom 40% Layout. NORWAY and US compatible. Opinions?
Post by: Tiramisuu on Mon, 06 October 2014, 17:47:56
I've been thinking about 40's quite a lot and if the home row isn't 12 keys wide touch typing in colemak, dvorak, or qwerty seems awkward.

If you can't fn from either hand then 3 key one handed chords become annoying.   The spacebar as fn has merit but symmetrical fn on either side seems easier.

To make a decent logical 10 key, wasd, over and above your normal missing keys you need at least 2 fn layers and a programmable main.

I'm fascinated by non staggered but not sure my poor brain could adapt.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT]: Custom 40% Layout. NORWAY and US compatible. Opinions?
Post by: [esc] on Wed, 08 October 2014, 08:08:34
Thanks for the replies, guys! I've scrapped and completely redesigned the layout. Please see the first post. Feedback is appreciated (see first post)!

[attachimg=1]

Quote from: pyro on Mon, 06 October 2014, 17:24:19
I like that you broke up the 3x3 cluster of the standard numpad, but do you have a reason for the digit positions? Why don't you start with 1234 on the homerow (see Benford's Law*)? What's the number modifier and where are all the symbols?

I'd be hesitant to place the arrow keys in a modifier-activated layer. Depending on the modifier you might have to use two hands to activate them, which would make navigating and selecting with ctrl/shift+arrowkeys harder.

I'm also not sure if losing the key-staggering in a square sized keyboard and discarding the function- and number-rows actually are benefits. I've grown quite fond of these rows on my laptop since I've remapped them to navigation keys. But I like what you did with the bottom row.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27s_law

Thanks for the reply, this was really helpful! The number-arrangement was just thrown in without any thought, so it really sucked. The new layout has all numbers on one line, dvorak style. Does this better comply with Benford's law? Please let me know. I am also thinking of adding a number-pad to the ƒ-layer. I'll use the new ƒ-lock key (above the arrow cluster) as a num-lock key for number entry. What do you think?
      I tested the home-row-arrows on my querty, and it didn't work out. I'll need a dedicated modifier for the arrow keys if it's ever going to work. I went with dedicated arrow keys in the new design.
      About the staggering, is it a bad idea to go non-staggered? Also, as you can see the number row is back again in the new design, but I don't use it for numbers. Most of the keys don't have any purpose as of now. What should I use these keys for?

Quote from: vvp on Mon, 06 October 2014, 04:59:22
Quote from: p3lim on Mon, 06 October 2014, 00:46:57
I went from the scandinavic ISO layout to US ANSI last year, and instead of doing anything really fancy with my layout I ended up using a compose key (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key) instead.
+1 for compose key. It is a great thing for rarely used characters.

Compose key added (ƒ+menu). It will be extra handy now that I've re-purposed the alt-layer. Maybe I will place the old alt-layer at ƒ+alt>

Quote from: Tiramisuu on Mon, 06 October 2014, 17:47:56
I've been thinking about 40's quite a lot and if the home row isn't 12 keys wide touch typing in colemak, dvorak, or qwerty seems awkward.

If you can't fn from either hand then 3 key one handed chords become annoying.   The spacebar as fn has merit but symmetrical fn on either side seems easier.

To make a decent logical 10 key, wasd, over and above your normal missing keys you need at least 2 fn layers and a programmable main.

I'm fascinated by non staggered but not sure my poor brain could adapt.
Thanks for the reply, the new layout now has all-symetrical modifier keys. I will not increase the width to 12 keys. I tried that out, and it makes the outer-most keys uncomfortable to press.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT] Custom 40% Layout. NORDIC and US compatible. Opinions? [UPDATE]
Post by: [esc] on Wed, 08 October 2014, 12:45:44
The problem:
[attach=1]

This doesn't look clean at all. Should I put extra keys there(blue), or should I leave it bare?
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT] Custom 40% Layout. NORDIC and US compatible. Opinions? [UPDATE]
Post by: dusan on Wed, 08 October 2014, 17:19:42
The Shift key position is hard. I have tested it in a recently proposed layout (search topic under keywords TypeMatrix, RealMatrix) and found it's harder even compared to the standard keyboard and even if I have rather short pinkies. I would better shift the right Shift key upward at least 0.5 unit or rightward 0.75 unit, and similarly for the left Shift key. If you insist in strictly grid layout, you may want to swap Shift keys with Ctrl or Function (f) keys.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT] Custom 40% Layout. NORDIC and US compatible. Opinions? [UPDATE]
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 08 October 2014, 18:21:10
Shift keys directly next to the pinky home row (i.e. on the same row) works okay. Or shift keys on one or both thumbs.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT] Custom 40% Layout. NORDIC and US compatible. Opinions? [UPDATE]
Post by: [esc] on Thu, 09 October 2014, 01:40:29
Quote from: dusan on Wed, 08 October 2014, 17:19:42
The Shift key position is hard. I have tested it in a recently proposed layout (search topic under keywords TypeMatrix, RealMatrix) and found it's harder even compared to the standard keyboard and even if I have rather short pinkies. I would better shift the right Shift key upward at least 0.5 unit or rightward 0.75 unit, and similarly for the left Shift key. If you insist in strictly grid layout, you may want to swap Shift keys with Ctrl or Function (f) keys.

Hi! I am not sure what you mean about the shift position being hard. I have placed them where the querty "Z" and "/" would normally be. I did not see this approach in any of the posts in your thread. Also, the shift keys are supposed to be pressed with the opposite hand, so now I only have to move my pinky down one row instead of moving them negative X and negative Y direction (as an example for left hand). On my ISO laptop, i find shift in the default position very awkward to use, and as a result I never even use the right shift key. But if you can explain a little better I may consider moving the shift keys to CTRL(next to home row).

[attach=1]

Quote from: jacobolus on Wed, 08 October 2014, 18:21:10
Shift keys directly next to the pinky home row (i.e. on the same row) works okay. Or shift keys on one or both thumbs.

The thumb shift-keys are not an option for this specific layout, unfortunately. I like the idea of having shift keys directly underneath my home row-pinky, but if it becomes an issue I will move them next to pinky home row. But then you guys need to convince me!  ;)
Title: Re: [IDEA] Need feedback on my symmetrical Mini Grid Layout. [UPDATE]
Post by: berserkfan on Thu, 09 October 2014, 02:02:34
As a user of matrix keyboard layouts myself, I say that you don't need 2x for the thumb. Don't believe me? Just look at all the shiny places on other people's spacebars. Almost everyone hits the spacebar on either the right or left thumb in the same places.

That bottom line is really quite assymetrical to me and needs some time getting used to. Whereas if you stick to a standard matrix layout like me you can get used to any matrix keyboard.
Title: Re: [IDEA] Need feedback on my symmetrical Mini Grid Layout. [UPDATE]
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 09 October 2014, 02:15:04
Quote from: berserkfan on Thu, 09 October 2014, 02:02:34
As a user of matrix keyboard layouts myself, I say that you don't need 2x for the thumb. Don't believe me? Just look at all the shiny places on other people's spacebars. Almost everyone hits the spacebar on either the right or left thumb in the same places.
The shiny spot on most people’s spacebar is at least 1.5u long; to be safe and make sure you get a solid press out of that, 1.75u seems like a safe length, but 2u is also good.

I think Matias has the right idea with their 1.5x2.5 split spacebars on the ErgoPro though, for a relatively standard layout keyboard. Getting the spacebar a bit closer to the body / away from the home row is a nice advantage.

If you make an Ergodox-type layout, 1.5u or even smaller might be sufficient.
Title: Re: [IDEA] Need feedback on my symmetrical Mini Grid Layout. [UPDATE]
Post by: berserkfan on Thu, 09 October 2014, 03:09:43
Quote from: jacobolus on Thu, 09 October 2014, 02:15:04
Quote from: berserkfan on Thu, 09 October 2014, 02:02:34
As a user of matrix keyboard layouts myself, I say that you don't need 2x for the thumb. Don't believe me? Just look at all the shiny places on other people's spacebars. Almost everyone hits the spacebar on either the right or left thumb in the same places.
The shiny spot on most people’s spacebar is at least 1.5u long; to be safe and make sure you get a solid press out of that, 1.75u seems like a safe length, but 2u is also good.

I think Matias has the right idea with their 1.5x2.5 split spacebars on the ErgoPro though, for a relatively standard layout keyboard. Getting the spacebar a bit closer to the body / away from the home row is a nice advantage.

If you make an Ergodox-type layout, 1.5u or even smaller might be sufficient.

Yeah, so I'm an outlier. I always hit my spacebar in the same place. Am able to use my 1u spacebars easily - in fact I use them to help me position my hand, since in my modified colemak layout I have lost my F and J centers and need an anchor.
Title: Re: [IDEA] Need feedback on my symmetrical Mini Grid Layout. [UPDATE]
Post by: [esc] on Thu, 09 October 2014, 03:23:30
Quote from: berserkfan on Thu, 09 October 2014, 02:02:34
As a user of matrix keyboard layouts myself, I say that you don't need 2x for the thumb. Don't believe me? Just look at all the shiny places on other people's spacebars. Almost everyone hits the spacebar on either the right or left thumb in the same places.

That bottom line is really quite assymetrical to me and needs some time getting used to. Whereas if you stick to a standard matrix layout like me you can get used to any matrix keyboard.

Can you post a picture of your matrix keyboard, please?

The bottom line is completely symmetrical in respect to the y axis between "FG" and "HJ", but it does not follow the grid layout. I want my spacebar to be bigger than 1u (might change my mind if you show the small spacebar), but smaller than 2u to make the modifier keys easier to reach.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT] Custom 40% Layout. NORDIC and US compatible. Opinions? [UPDATE]
Post by: dusan on Thu, 09 October 2014, 08:32:37
Quote from: [esc] on Thu, 09 October 2014, 01:40:29
Quote from: dusan on Wed, 08 October 2014, 17:19:42
The Shift key position is hard. I have tested it in a recently proposed layout (search topic under keywords TypeMatrix, RealMatrix) and found it's harder even compared to the standard keyboard and even if I have rather short pinkies. I would better shift the right Shift key upward at least 0.5 unit or rightward 0.75 unit, and similarly for the left Shift key. If you insist in strictly grid layout, you may want to swap Shift keys with Ctrl or Function (f) keys.

Hi! I am not sure what you mean about the shift position being hard. I have placed them where the querty "Z" and "/" would normally be. I did not see this approach in any of the posts in your thread. Also, the shift keys are supposed to be pressed with the opposite hand, so now I only have to move my pinky down one row instead of moving them negative X and negative Y direction (as an example for left hand). On my ISO laptop, i find shift in the default position very awkward to use, and as a result I never even use the right shift key. But if you can explain a little better I may consider moving the shift keys to CTRL(next to home row).

Ooops. Of course you're right. I've miscalculated the position of the Shift keys as I'm working on a grid design which is similar to yours but with wider character array (six columns for each hand). I've also mis-mentioned the . key while I was actually thinking of the / key because actually, I use Dvorak so I have to convert every position into QWERTY. Please accept my apology.

In your layout, actually Ctrl key is in the best position and function (f) is in the worst position; the left Shift key is in a better position compared to Z of a standard (staggered) keyboard, and symmetrically the right Shift key is in a worse position compared to / of a standard keyboard. So you may want to swap Shifts with Ctrls if Ctrls are not your top prioritized modifier keys.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT] Custom 40% Layout. NORDIC and US compatible. Opinions? [UPDATE]
Post by: [esc] on Thu, 09 October 2014, 09:13:32
Quote from: dusan on Thu, 09 October 2014, 08:32:37
Ooops. Of course you're right. I've miscalculated the position of the Shift keys as I'm working on a grid design which is similar to yours but with wider character array (six columns for each hand). I've also mis-mentioned the . key while I was actually thinking of the / key because actually, I use Dvorak so I have to convert every position into QWERTY. Please accept my apology.

In your layout, actually Ctrl key is in the best position and function (f) is in the worst position; the left Shift key is in a better position compared to Z of a standard (staggered) keyboard, and symmetrically the right Shift key is in a worse position compared to / of a standard keyboard. So you may want to swap Shifts with Ctrls if Ctrls are not your top prioritized modifier keys.

Don't worry! Good that we sorted it out! :) The thing you said about putting the top prioritised modifier keys in the pinkie home row position makes sense. The current position of the ctrls may be a bit better for the shift-keys, but the current position also seems very good. I have no problem extending my pinkies one straight column downwards. The good thing is that the caps are the same size, so I have a lot of flexibility when it comes to swapping keys.  Thanks for your reply.
Quote
symmetrically the right Shift key is in a worse position compared to / of a standard keyboard
what?
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT] Custom 40% Layout. NORDIC and US compatible. Opinions? [UPDATE]
Post by: dusan on Thu, 09 October 2014, 10:28:22
Quote from: [esc] on Thu, 09 October 2014, 09:13:32
Quote
symmetrically the right Shift key is in a worse position compared to / of a standard keyboard
what?

Attached is a figure that I have prepared for the design documentation of my present work (to appear in the previously mentioned TypeMatrix thread). I hope the figure can explain better than my (poor) English.

I use both staggered and matrix layouts on a daily basis (staggered at work, matrix at home) so this is not my theory, but my personal experience.

I believe many prior designers have identified the hard points for the pinky in the bottom character row and have addressed the issue in many ways. To name a few:

* MicroTron (uTron) made the bottom corner pinky keys larger than usual.

* TypeMatrix made the left Shift key 2x vertically, which effectively omits the left-to-Z position, and moved a less frequently used key (the backslash key) to the right-to-slash position on the right hand.

* Many POS keyboards turned into matrix, including the character array, but keep the bottom character row 0.5u staggered.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT] Custom 40% Layout. NORDIC and US compatible. Opinions? [UPDATE]
Post by: [esc] on Fri, 10 October 2014, 01:36:41
Quote from: dusan on Thu, 09 October 2014, 10:28:22
Attached is a figure that I have prepared for the design documentation of my present work (to appear in the previously mentioned TypeMatrix thread). I hope the figure can explain better than my (poor) English.

I use both staggered and matrix layouts on a daily basis (staggered at work, matrix at home) so this is not my theory, but my personal experience. […]

Thank you for clarifying. I will try to take this into account in my design. This makes things a lot more complicated, though. Is symmetrical staggering better than matrix? Or is this solved by splitting the keyboard? How do I even connect the two halves? I still don't understand how the ergodox can use some kind of audio cable to connect the two halves together.
Title: Re: [IDEA] Need feedback on my symmetrical Mini Grid Layout. [UPDATE]
Post by: berserkfan on Sat, 11 October 2014, 22:19:26
WCASS is in the midst of doing PCB design now for his model F revival. Those guys who want model Fs in matrix format, please go to his thread and offer support for a model F matrix iayout!
Title: Re: [IDEA] Need feedback on my symmetrical Mini Grid Layout. [UPDATE]
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 11 October 2014, 22:26:22
Quote from: berserkfan on Sat, 11 October 2014, 22:19:26
Those guys who want model Fs in matrix format, please go to his thread and offer support for a model F matrix iayout!
I’m pretty sure that’s just you though.
Title: Re: [IDEA][LAYOUT] Custom 40% Layout. NORDIC and US compatible. Opinions? [UPDATE]
Post by: dusan on Wed, 15 October 2014, 10:43:55
Quote from: [esc] on Fri, 10 October 2014, 01:36:41
Thank you for clarifying. I will try to take this into account in my design. This makes things a lot more complicated, though. Is symmetrical staggering better than matrix? Or is this solved by splitting the keyboard?
I can't tell how it is in practice, because I never use a symmetrical staggered or full split keyboard. The following is my theory.

It takes me seconds to switch between postures (e.g. from 15 degree angled hands to 30 or 45 degree) on the same keyboard. It takes me minutes to get ready with the staggered layout every morning at work (or with the matrix layout every evening at home). It took me days to get used with a matrix character layout (I mean typing mode, i.e. characters, spacebar, Enter, Tab, Backspace), namely the TypeMatrix 2030 which has essentially the same character layout as the standard keyboard, when I started using it a few years ago. It took me weeks to get used with a laptop keyboard (I mean editing mode, i.e. combinations Shift, Ctrl and/or Alt + navigation/correction key), which has changed a bit the navigation and correction cluster against the standard PC keyboard, when I first used it ten years ago. It took me months to get used with the Dvorak character layout (which is very different from QWERTY) when I started learning it twenty years ago. It took and will take me years, maybe decades, before I can ever get used with my TypeMatrix 2030 keyboard, which has completely changed the position of the right Shift, Ctrl and Alt keys relatively to navigation and correction keys against the standard PC keyboard.

When I thought of your question I realized that all my experiences above prove simply and clearly one thing: human memory is flexible and adaptive to changes in geometry (i.e. the shape of keyboard) but not to changes in topology (i.e. the relative position of keys). I think this can help to explain/predict the business success or failure of every non-standard keyboard layout.
Title: Re: [IDEA] Need feedback on my symmetrical Mini Grid Layout. [UPDATE]
Post by: islisis on Fri, 17 October 2014, 06:27:53
I too prefer an extra top row and symmetrical thumb row in a keyboard compared to the planck design, and would also fill in blank spaces with keys. If a set with normal keycaps and option for bluetooth was available I think it would make a great tablet companion keyboard and would place an order. Good luck ;)