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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: Matt3o on Thu, 09 October 2014, 06:29:13

Title: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 09 October 2014, 06:29:13
This would be ALPHA-1, just dremel work + epoxy glue, but the result is promising. Next step would be 3d print. Final step would be production...

Enjoy.

(http://i.imgur.com/IC8QmdB.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/sU1HtKH.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/88aCSjz.jpg)
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: madhias on Thu, 09 October 2014, 06:31:51
Nice, i'm imaging right now Round 5 SA caps on a SSK. Yummy!

Do the caps fit regarding their dimensions in all? Not that the caps then touch/polish each other.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 09 October 2014, 06:33:28
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 09 October 2014, 07:06:27
Nice, i'm imaging right now Round 5 SA caps on a SSK. Yummy!

Do the caps fit regarding their dimensions in all? Not that the caps then touch/polish each other.

I have to make 10 or so 3d printed prototypes and try them on a real model M. I sold my last one few months ago, I have to find a new one now. Also... I have to work on the stabilized keys.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: JPG on Thu, 09 October 2014, 07:45:34
OMG, so this would fit any cherry key (not the stabilized ones)? Even novelties aka bro caps and such?
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 09 October 2014, 07:47:58
current one supports only round stemmed caps (some novelty keys have square stem), but I could make a square hole and it would fit anything
Title: .
Post by: esoomenona on Thu, 09 October 2014, 07:48:30
.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: JPG on Thu, 09 October 2014, 07:50:18
I am curious to know how it would feel typing on such a key (if it would be very firm or wobble or have a height problem). That's why I asked for novelties since it would not be a problem unless you intend to type on your novelty cap on a regular basis lol!
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 09 October 2014, 07:55:50
Great idea!

But how to accommodate all the various Cherry key heights on buckling spring stems?

Title: .
Post by: esoomenona on Thu, 09 October 2014, 07:56:08
.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 09 October 2014, 08:07:28
Great idea!

But how to accommodate all the various Cherry key heights on buckling spring stems?

I need a buckling spring keyboard both ansi and iso. looking for them right now.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: inanis on Thu, 09 October 2014, 08:15:02
This is great! It makes me want to get back to fixing and/or finally replacing my broken Unicomp M.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: E TwentyNine on Thu, 09 October 2014, 08:18:04
Great idea!

But how to accommodate all the various Cherry key heights on buckling spring stems?

Flat profile keyset.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: FrostyToast on Thu, 09 October 2014, 08:31:19
This would be amazing. Would there be various angles of the stem to accommodate for the different heights and the curve of the plate?
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 09 October 2014, 08:39:15
Absolutely epic here Matt3o.  I would be willing to donate an M for the cause.  I would just ask for a bit to cover shipping.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: yasuo on Thu, 09 October 2014, 08:41:45
(Attachment Link)
brutal :))
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: 0100010 on Thu, 09 October 2014, 09:12:36
Nice!  After installing a full board of these - I can see having to insert cardboard between the rows to align the keys.

If the center of the BS stem is drilled out to accept the MX stem - do you have a need to modify the bottom of the MX stem to center index and angle the spring - so that it buckles in the correct direction?
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 09 October 2014, 09:20:31
If the center of the BS stem is drilled out to accept the MX stem - do you have a need to modify the bottom of the MX stem to center index and angle the spring - so that it buckles in the correct direction?

yes we would need to tilt the stem inside the hole a little, but I have to test it on a real keyboard. At one point I had half a dozen model m (including ssk) around but I ended up selling all of them due to space constraints.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 09 October 2014, 09:26:37
(Attachment Link)
brutal :))

?? :confused:

mind blown is a good thing! :thumb:
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: E TwentyNine on Thu, 09 October 2014, 09:35:37
yes we would need to tilt the stem inside the hole a little, but I have to test it on a real keyboard. At one point I had half a dozen model m (including ssk) around but I ended up selling all of them due to space constraints.

I seem to be misunderstanding this a bit.  You drilled the BS stem completely through, removing the mounting spot for the spring?

Can you post a picture of the stem from top/bottom?
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 09 October 2014, 09:38:48
no, not completely there's still some material inside. Enough to glue a cherry mx male stem. I'll take better pictures later... actually I could work on the 3d model so I'm ready for 3d print.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: pasph on Thu, 09 October 2014, 10:48:05
This is really something!
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 09 October 2014, 11:48:04
Alright guys.  I am going to donate an M for science to help further this project.  Would anyone be willing to donate a few dollars to help with the international shipping costs for shipping this thing?
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 09 October 2014, 11:49:30
thanks Melvang! I'd gladly cover shipping
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 09 October 2014, 11:51:23
Might be a few days but I will get a cost for that figured out.  Does it need to be 100% functional?
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 09 October 2014, 11:58:54
Might be a few days but I will get a cost for that figured out.  Does it need to be 100% functional?

Physically it must be functional (no missing barrels nor springs or hammers). I also need most of the keys (if it misses a couple of 1u, no problem, but I need all the others).

Apart from that it doesn't need to be actually working.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 09 October 2014, 12:33:25
Great idea!

But how to accommodate all the various Cherry key heights on buckling spring stems?

I need a buckling spring keyboard both ansi and iso. looking for them right now.

you only need one as both ANSI and ISO have the same barrel frame. I can send you a spare to play with if melvang runs into trouble with his.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 09 October 2014, 13:59:27
Great idea!

But how to accommodate all the various Cherry key heights on buckling spring stems?

I need a buckling spring keyboard both ansi and iso. looking for them right now.

you only need one as both ANSI and ISO have the same barrel frame. I can send you a spare to play with if melvang runs into trouble with his.

It's not only the frame. I also need the ISO enter and left shift
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 09 October 2014, 14:25:53
Wut.  Incredible.  All the Cherry will need to be the same profile to fit most buckling spring boards.  If somebody has not said that already.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 09 October 2014, 14:38:26
Wut.  Incredible.  All the Cherry will need to be the same profile to fit most buckling spring boards.  If somebody has not said that already.

Why wouldn't one be able to use dcs caps?  I believe that matt3o is attempting is to modify the bottom half of the BS caps to accept MX caps.  I don't see why profile would matter. 

Granted yes, IBM caps are a uniform profile but get the sculpted effect from the curved backplate.  I have been wanting to see SCS on something of the same curved plate for a while now.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 09 October 2014, 14:59:43
It is likely that I'd need to make a different slider for each keycap family. SA Row 3 works very well because they are tall and I can push them very deep into the slider, but I'm really curious to see how a DSA would work (Granite should look pretty neat on it).

A fellow European volunteered his ANSI model M to the cause, so we can spare on shipping. If the frame for ISO is the same I just need the missing keycaps (most importantly ISO enter), but anyway ansi will keep me busy for while.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 09 October 2014, 16:25:20
It's not only the frame. I also need the ISO enter and left shift

Hmm, I only have ISO enter from a model F, which won't fit right. I guess you "could" just cut up a different key and use it as a donor for the slider. Left shift is very easy: just use any 1.25x key, or slider from a 1x key. There is no stabilizer. I think I have a spare from a model F but I will have to check.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 09 October 2014, 17:14:21
Very interesting!

SA profile would probably look best, I seem to associated SA with olden terminals and Model M is a similar vintage.

Is the hole in the stop just a round hole drilled through, or is there a "+" for the keycap to slot in to?  I guess it's not necessary, a hole would suffice, as long we it was tight enough to hold the keycaps on.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 09 October 2014, 17:18:49
Very interesting!

SA profile would probably look best, I seem to associated SA with olden terminals and Model M is a similar vintage.

Is the hole in the stop just a round hole drilled through, or is there a "+" for the keycap to slot in to?  I guess it's not necessary, a hole would suffice, as long we it was tight enough to hold the keycaps on.

inside the hole there's the cherry "+" (sorry I took the picture in the wrong angle). The hole needs to be pretty big to fit some novelty keys. Anyway in the coming days I will work on the 3D model and see what shapeways can do.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 09 October 2014, 18:22:13
Now I just remembered that I have an old typewriter in the basement with keycaps that fit Cherry stems, theoretically, but are wrong inside to actually work on a keyboard.

If those fit on some sort of buckling spring key stem, it would be amazing! They are super-thick, spherical doubleshots in a truly vintage color ......
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Fri, 10 October 2014, 01:28:08
Now I just remembered that I have an old typewriter in the basement with keycaps that fit Cherry stems, theoretically, but are wrong inside to actually work on a keyboard.

If those fit on some sort of buckling spring key stem, it would be amazing! They are super-thick, spherical doubleshots in a truly vintage color ......

PICTURES!
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: dustinhxc on Fri, 10 October 2014, 01:31:21
sweet design man..
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 10 October 2014, 07:17:45
PICTURES!

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=59096.msg1353913#msg1353913
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 10 October 2014, 11:04:39
looks like it could be reed switch or slider &spring/dome over membrane. Spacebar might be marquardt or something else.

anyway sweet keycaps, but they might not fit with this design easily. You could harvest the sliders from the typewriter and glue them flattened BS stems.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Vizir on Sun, 19 October 2014, 20:26:09
Looking forward to this!
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Mon, 20 October 2014, 02:17:50
I'm waiting for the Model M to reach my place... I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Fri, 24 October 2014, 12:58:18
I wanted to thank madhias who volunteered his Model M to the cause. I received the keyboard few days ago and I'm ready to 3d print the beta 1 of the slider :) Crossing fingers, let me know if you spot any issue.

(http://i.imgur.com/dMuMlmb.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/A5RNGBR.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/3BE9zZY.png)
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: JPG on Fri, 24 October 2014, 13:14:19
I wanted to thank madhias who volunteered his Model M to the cause. I received the keyboard few days ago and I'm ready to 3d print the beta 1 of the slider :) Crossing fingers, let me know if you spot any issue.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/dMuMlmb.png)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/A5RNGBR.png)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/3BE9zZY.png)



The only issue that I see coming is a wallet problem. Else this looks awesome!
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 24 October 2014, 13:26:13
I would assume these would work for F's and M's equally?
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: JPG on Fri, 24 October 2014, 13:29:31
Hum, I just got a revelation:


Since some cherry keys have a profile in them (well most in fact) AND that we can now produce custom model F pcb's and controllers THEN we could make a flat barrel plate and flat everything and even reuse existing cherry keyboard cases if things are aligned correctly (or version close to one).


Is it possible or did I miss something? If everything get flat, then we could make some sort of sandwich (maybe like the minimal Swill case) and then it would be relatively easy to make a full custom model F as long as you have access to barrels/flippers/springs from an old model F.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Vizir on Fri, 24 October 2014, 15:19:15
I wanted to thank madhias who volunteered his Model M to the cause. I received the keyboard few days ago and I'm ready to 3d print the beta 1 of the slider :) Crossing fingers, let me know if you spot any issue.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/dMuMlmb.png)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/A5RNGBR.png)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/3BE9zZY.png)


looking amazing! i'm down with SA or DSA.


edit: or sphericals. too many choices...
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 24 October 2014, 23:41:39
Hum, I just got a revelation:


Since some cherry keys have a profile in them (well most in fact) AND that we can now produce custom model F pcb's and controllers THEN we could make a flat barrel plate and flat everything and even reuse existing cherry keyboard cases if things are aligned correctly (or version close to one).
Or you could just use the keycaps from a Model M2, no?
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: JPG on Sat, 25 October 2014, 00:00:08
Hum, I just got a revelation:


Since some cherry keys have a profile in them (well most in fact) AND that we can now produce custom model F pcb's and controllers THEN we could make a flat barrel plate and flat everything and even reuse existing cherry keyboard cases if things are aligned correctly (or version close to one).
Or you could just use the keycaps from a Model M2, no?


They are profiled? At this point I don't know if it's easier to get a bent plate/case sandwich with regular BS keycap or this. Anyway, this thing is still very interesting in itself.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 25 October 2014, 00:07:18
Yeah, pretty sure M2 barrel frame is flat, with profiled caps, though I can’t find any side-view pictures in an image search :/. Not totally sure how well a flat plate would work for Model F PCB / flippies / barrels though.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 25 October 2014, 21:21:58
Yeah, pretty sure M2 barrel frame is flat, with profiled caps, though I can’t find any side-view pictures in an image search :/. Not totally sure how well a flat plate would work for Model F PCB / flippies / barrels though.

M15 has the same technology / construction as the M2, and has better pictures available. You can see it's flat/flat
http://webwit.nl/input/ibm_m15/m15-5.jpg

I was disappointed when I found out.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 25 October 2014, 22:10:41
If this project comes to fruition I would put Toxic on the bigfoot.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Sun, 26 October 2014, 01:55:37
I doubt we can have all keys adapted (right shift is pretty problematic for example), but 1u should work.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: madhias on Sun, 26 October 2014, 14:28:34
Ah, then maybe only for novelties.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 26 October 2014, 15:34:25
I wanted to thank madhias who volunteered his Model M to the cause. I received the keyboard few days ago and I'm ready to 3d print the beta 1 of the slider :) Crossing fingers, let me know if you spot any issue.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/dMuMlmb.png)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/A5RNGBR.png)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/3BE9zZY.png)


Do you think that 'nub' on the bottom is sufficient to capture the top of the spring, from rest and through the buckle?
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 26 October 2014, 16:28:20
I wanted to thank madhias who volunteered his Model M to the cause. I received the keyboard few days ago and I'm ready to 3d print the beta 1 of the slider :) Crossing fingers, let me know if you spot any issue.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/dMuMlmb.png)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/A5RNGBR.png)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/3BE9zZY.png)


Do you think that 'nub' on the bottom is sufficient to capture the top of the spring, from rest and through the buckle?

I think so.

If you look at a normal IBM cap it's not much bigger, and the spring is always in compression, so there's really nowhere else for it to go. We'll see once the prototypes arrive.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Sun, 26 October 2014, 17:51:53
my spring nub/holder is actually bigger than the original one... so should work.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Wed, 05 November 2014, 09:50:40
They arrived!

(http://i.imgur.com/2RmVwsX.jpg)
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: geniekid on Wed, 05 November 2014, 12:07:43
WELL?!!?!?!?!?!?!  :p
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: 0100010 on Wed, 05 November 2014, 14:22:58
It's......... beautiful!!!!
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Wed, 05 November 2014, 16:57:36
I need to make more changes... gosh this prototyping phase is expensive :P
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: 0100010 on Wed, 05 November 2014, 17:07:53
Curious as to what is 'wrong' with them currently.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Joey Quinn on Wed, 05 November 2014, 17:31:00
These look great, I need some.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: dorkvader on Wed, 05 November 2014, 20:53:18
I need to make more changes... gosh this prototyping phase is expensive :P

is there enough of a stem for the cherry cap to grip?
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 06 November 2014, 02:06:22
I need to make more changes... gosh this prototyping phase is expensive :P

is there enough of a stem for the cherry cap to grip?

yeah the stem works. the problem is that for some reasons the spring doesn't "click". There's very little room for error. Also 3d material is pretty rough while the slider needs to be smooth.

more testing needed.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: E TwentyNine on Thu, 06 November 2014, 08:46:38
yeah the stem works. the problem is that for some reasons the spring doesn't "click". There's very little room for error. Also 3d material is pretty rough while the slider needs to be smooth.

more testing needed.

Not certain what aspects of your design you're keying on, but I believe the angle of the spring mount point on the underside of the key has to a very specific angle for the buckling action to work properly.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: 0100010 on Thu, 06 November 2014, 09:06:30
yeah the stem works. the problem is that for some reasons the spring doesn't "click". There's very little room for error. Also 3d material is pretty rough while the slider needs to be smooth.

more testing needed.

Not certain what aspects of your design you're keying on, but I believe the angle of the spring mount point on the underside of the key has to a very specific angle for the buckling action to work properly.

↑ this x 100

Also the bottom 'lips' of the BS stem need to be very thin to provide clearance around the base of the spring.  As a slightly related example, sometimes with new stems from Unicomp there is some flash there which you can feel binding on the spring towards the bottom of the stroke which can be removed with a razor/exacto.

Sometimes when inserting the stem in the barrel, you have to orient the whole assembly "up" or "down" - depending on what direction the spring is 'pointing' in the barrel when it is in a vertical position.  I find for springs that rest towards the 'bottom' of the barrel, you need the orient the assembly so the spring falls towards the top of the barrel so that the stem and spring interface properly.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 06 November 2014, 11:09:49
I think it's not the angle, but the position. The two ends of the spring are held at different locations, eccentrically loading it. For a slightly different feel, you could move it forward (toward the front of the KB) a bit and that would cause it to buckle for sure.

I agree with 0100010 about the inserting into barrels part. I actually tip the whole keyboard forward to make sure all the springs are rocked forward so I can insert the keycaps the proper way.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Thu, 06 November 2014, 12:23:19
I believe the problem is in the spot where the springs lays. It is probably too deep (or not deep enough). That is the only measurement that I couldn't take.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: dorkvader on Thu, 06 November 2014, 13:30:50
I believe the problem is in the spot where the springs lays. It is probably too deep (or not deep enough). That is the only measurement that I couldn't take.

you mean how big the bump is? I will measure one now.

FWIW I do not think that to be an issue. To test this I sued a pin and something hard (a screwdriver) which poked out much further than normal. The spring still buckled.

But if the "bump" is too deep you will run into an issue if it's not for forward enough. I believe the eccentric loading of the spring causes it to buckle reliably.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: kalrand on Sun, 07 December 2014, 16:46:08
I'm kind of curious how this is progressing...
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 07 December 2014, 16:50:25
I'm kind of curious how this is progressing...

Me too. It gets a lot more conversation on Deskthority.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: Matt3o on Sun, 07 December 2014, 17:06:20
I'm waiting for the second prototype.
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: dark_samus on Fri, 27 February 2015, 11:23:05
Looks like just what I want.... how long do you think until these are available for 3d printing or somewhere I could buy a set?
Title: Re: buckling spring with cherry on top
Post by: mattlach on Thu, 31 January 2019, 11:32:56
Apologies for resurrecting a very old thread, but did this effort die off, or did it just continue in a different thread somewhere?

I had considered trying to model and 3d print something like this myself, but some googling suggested it had already been done, which lead me here.

Very curious.