Tripod mounts, even on ordinary keyboards. It would be a great replacement for the ridiculously expensive (or bad) trays. I haven't seen it anywhere but on Matias Ergo Pro and some custom ErgoDox mod.I’ve recommended this to the keyboard.io folks. I’m not sure if they’ll do it though.
Oh, and one more thing. Switches with 5+ mm maximum travel and progressive springs.This might be nice, but I think 4mm travel is also okay; I personally want actuation at about 1mm into the stroke, followed by a very steep drop in force, and then gradual increase further on... I think 3mm of post-actuation travel is enough with the right force curve; even 2mm might be enough. Ideally, the return stroke should bounce the finger back up, as soon as release is desired... that is, it should be easy to hold a switch down, but as soon as the switch is obviously on its way back up the switch should with higher force spring the finger back above the actuation point, so that it’s maximally fast and easy to do fast multiple presses. This is non-trivial to get right, and a bit hard to do with a purely mechanical design, but I can always dream. :-)
Wordprocessors such as word could offer auto completion based on your previous typing.As long as the autocomplete takes a keystroke to invoke, that would be fine. Anything that happens “automatically”, which is to say, without my explicit invocation, I find to be a tremendous pain in the ass.
Ergonomics like that could be built into desktop operating systems. Macros and the like.
How about, instead of pressing shift and a key, I just hold down the key a little longer. Hold the key a bit longer than that to repeat the key.Meh. Sticky keys FTW.
Wordprocessors such as word could offer auto completion based on your previous typing.I hate it when I edit inside a paragraph in OpenOffice/Libreoffice and it auto-completes to a long word that changes the layout of the rest of the paragraph, and sometimes the rest of the page pushing the next paragraph or box to the next page.
How about, instead of pressing shift and a key, I just hold down the key a little longer. Hold the key a bit longer than that to repeat the key.This sounds really annoying; it’s a feature that imposes a built-in speed limit on your typing.
How about smaller keys for the pinky columns, because it can't reach that far without moving the hand.Absolutely. Having slightly smaller switches and smaller keycaps for all the keys lets you position the keys slightly closer together on most fingers, and substantially closer together on the pinky.
I have been thinking of instead of having a Return key to the right of the pinky keys, have a lever that is activated by moving the hand to the right. The same type of lever can be to the left side of the right index finger columns and also for the left hand. It could be used for tab, esc, etc. not modifiers.I definitely don’t want this, but try it out! :)
for sculpted boards, how about thumb keys which are aligned with 'vertical' movements (radial) rather than 'lateral' (palmar)? my left thumb tendons have taken over a year to recover from extended mod key holds on the kinesis, due to lateral overstretching. i would like to see more trials of alternative orientation in real keyboards.Most unambiguous way of describing these motions is:
it's true also that the weight of the hand can relieve some of the activation strain for either joint, but the problem for key holds is that the return force of most switches is high enough to induce thumb stress once the hand position moves to reach for finger keys.One solution: get rid of any keys you have to reach for. ;)
for sculpted boards, how about thumb keys which are aligned with 'vertical' movements (radial) rather than 'lateral' (palmar)? my left thumb tendons have taken over a year to recover from extended mod key holds on the kinesis, due to lateral overstretching. i would like to see more trials of alternative orientation in real keyboards.Most unambiguous way of describing these motions is:
Pressing down with the thumb on a standard spacebar / in the direction of the table is abduction of the thumb’s carpometacarpal (CMC) joint. Lifting the thumb in the opposite direction is adduction of that joint.
Squeezing the thumb inward toward the fingers is flexion of the metacarpophalangeal (MP) joint, with some slight flexion also of the CMC joint. The opposite outward motion is extension of these two joints.
The CMC joint is the joint down at the base of the thumb near the wrist, and it can move along two separate axes. The MP joint is the joint near where the skin of the thumb attaches to the palm, and it only moves in one axis.
Personally I want to try to build a keyboard where modifier keys on the thumb are roughly vertically oriented and operate through flexing the MP joint, but press-and-release keys (spacebar, backspace, etc.) work through abduction of the CMC joint. Because the MP joint is smaller and weaker than the CMC joint, I suspect that for a key like the spacebar it could get quite tiring to use MP/CMC flexion for it, but when holding a key down, this is not as much an issue, and additionally I think the thumb can get some assist from movement of the whole hand (arm muscles) for holding down a modifier key.
Have you ever tried a Maltron? I think the Maltron gets the positioning and orientation of the thumb keys slightly better than the Kinesis, though I’m mainly thinking about the primary keys (spacebar etc.) not the smaller other thumb keys; I haven’t tried either keyboard for a long enough period (longer than a day) to weigh in on how tiring the modifiers are over an extended period.
I was thinking about features that would improve standard keyboards, without becoming really ergonomic boards.It’s somewhat limited; the standard layout is quite bad.
What I was thinking about was negative tilting, which can be easily implemented. I don't understand why I get the ability to tilt but not to negative tilt.Adjusting the overall position and orientation of the keyboard is pretty easy with any keyboard: get a height-adjustable desk and chair, and stack stuff under the front or back edge of the keyboard until the angle is right.
I would also like a flat keyboard with keys contoured to form a curve over the different rows. Flat to keep the height of the keyboard as low as possible. I don't see the need for contoured keys on a staircase case as you can find now and curved plates only make production harder.I don’t understand what this means. Could you draw a picture or something?
Symmetrical staggering could be implemented without much effort and could be coupled to more thumbkeys (like a microtron but without being split).I take it you think keeping the keyboard in a rectangular shape with all the keys angled the same direction is an important feature?
I also like the idea of using pressure sensors (simple resistive strain gauges on a soft rubber layer may suffice) and small solenoids with relatively strong switch springs to achieve Jacobolus' goal of "springing the finger back". Once the pressure on the cap is enough the solenoid actuates to help pull the key down (like an active tactile point).If you are putting a solenoid there then you do not need a pressure sensor. The solenoid can serve as an analog sensor for the actuation depth too. Spring, ferrite stem and a solenoid will do.
I was thinking about features that would improve standard keyboards, without becoming really ergonomic boards.It’s somewhat limited; the standard layout is quite bad.QuoteWhat I was thinking about was negative tilting, which can be easily implemented. I don't understand why I get the ability to tilt but not to negative tilt.Adjusting the overall position and orientation of the keyboard is pretty easy with any keyboard: get a height-adjustable desk and chair, and stack stuff under the front or back edge of the keyboard until the angle is right.QuoteI would also like a flat keyboard with keys contoured to form a curve over the different rows. Flat to keep the height of the keyboard as low as possible. I don't see the need for contoured keys on a staircase case as you can find now and curved plates only make production harder.I don’t understand what this means. Could you draw a picture or something?QuoteSymmetrical staggering could be implemented without much effort and could be coupled to more thumbkeys (like a microtron but without being split).I take it you think keeping the keyboard in a rectangular shape with all the keys angled the same direction is an important feature?
Here are some ideas:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=59396
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56095
I also like the idea of using pressure sensors (simple resistive strain gauges on a soft rubber layer may suffice) and small solenoids with relatively strong switch springs to achieve Jacobolus' goal of "springing the finger back". Once the pressure on the cap is enough the solenoid actuates to help pull the key down (like an active tactile point).If you are putting a solenoid there then you do not need a pressure sensor. The solenoid can serve as an analog sensor for the actuation depth too. Spring, ferrite stem and a solenoid will do.
A truly ergonomic keyboard should not have more than three rows of keys, so the keycap profile and stepping becomes fairly unimportant, IMHO. Any more than three and you have to start moving the hand up or down. Extension to one row above and below home row is not a big issue, but contoured and stepped caps would help.
The solenoid coil cannot sense the position of the rod using simple means.Is this that complicated?
I'd like a split keyboard with interchangeable halves.Can you draw a picture?
Left could be normal stagger, symmetrical stagger, or matrix. Going further, it could have function keys on the left or even have the cursor and navigation cluster (as in in left handed tkl)
Right could be normal stagger or matrix. Going further, right could be tkl, 60% or full.
My point of view on the entire ergonomics brainstorm was about what needs to be changed so that a standard keyboard can become better, without scaring people away. I didn't want it to be about drastic ideas.The most minimal very positive adjustment you can make is splitting the spacebar into two pieces and turning one of them into a delete (“backspace”) key.
I think that the microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard could be a good starting point. It keeps it familiar and accessible/recognizable for the layman. But it would be better with symmetrical staggering and a split spacebar giving space to implement a thumb driven trackball.Symmetrical staggering would defeat a lot of the purpose: it requires weeks of catch-up time to get back to former speed when you start mucking with the stagger; the keyboard would be a lot harder to sell people on.
As for the keycaps, this is what I tried to explain:You’ve got the right general idea, but the closer-than-homerow row (on QWERTY the “ZXCV” row) should have keys of about the same height as the home row. I agree that a steep top angle for this row is helpful for grabbing the fingertips when the fingers flex inward. The top angle of DCS on this row is pretty good; OEM profile isn’t as good IMO. It might be possible to get even more aggressive than DCS for a column-layout board.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/0Zfrk6w.gif)
After seeing the drawing it looks more like DCS or so, but it seemed better in my head
The solenoid coil cannot sense the position of the rod using simple means.Is this that complicated?
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like ergo driverI'd like a split keyboard with interchangeable halves.Can you draw a picture?
Left could be normal stagger, symmetrical stagger, or matrix. Going further, it could have function keys on the left or even have the cursor and navigation cluster (as in in left handed tkl)
Right could be normal stagger or matrix. Going further, right could be tkl, 60% or full.
Yes, I think your post shows how complicated it is. It's not a simple matter of sensing, you need to add some driving AND sensing circuitry and should probably use a separate coil. And you still have no way of sensing when the user releases pressure on the switch, so the key will remain down. In which case, why not use a simple resistive strain gauge instead? It will probably give a more consistent response to actual pressure than only sensing the position (you may have small inconsistencies between springs), too.Detecting the force with which the user pushes the key is the same problem for both inductive sensing and resistive sensor.
Yes, I think your post shows how complicated it is. It's not a simple matter of sensing, you need to add some driving AND sensing circuitry and should probably use a separate coil. And you still have no way of sensing when the user releases pressure on the switch, so the key will remain down. In which case, why not use a simple resistive strain gauge instead? It will probably give a more consistent response to actual pressure than only sensing the position (you may have small inconsistencies between springs), too....
In both cases: Fuser + FdrivingCoil = K*X + FpositionSensingElement
X - switch stem position (how much it is pressed)
K - spring force constant
In both cases you need to estimate FdrivingCoil(*) based on the current you push through it. All the forces F? will also depend on the switch stem position X.
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Or did you mean that the force sensor will be between the stem and the keycap? Which would mean that the force sensor will be moving and that means hoping the connection to PCB will last long enough even when the connection wires will be bending all the time (or sliding contacts will be moving all the time).
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This may even fit 2.5W maximum power of USB 2.0.
User maximum typing speed is about 200 WPM so the maximum time for the ferrite core press by the driving coil is 1 / (200 * 5 / 60) = 0.06 s (assuming there are 5 characters in a word by average).
Assuming 100g springs and 5 mm switch travel, we get: 1 N * 0.005 m / 0.06 s = 0.083 W
Since it is a spring and does not start at 1N but at 0N, then we actually have 0.042 W per switch.
That means definitely not more than 60 simultaneous assisted key presses at once since 2.5 W / 0.042 W ≅ 60.
Looks like 6KRO is possible. Barely may be enough for layering on small keyboards some people prefer. I may try to actually build this after I'm done with my Katy keyboard. Well I'll probably need an SLS printer first :D
like ergo driverI'd like a split keyboard with interchangeable halves.Can you draw a picture?
Left could be normal stagger, symmetrical stagger, or matrix. Going further, it could have function keys on the left or even have the cursor and navigation cluster (as in in left handed tkl)
Right could be normal stagger or matrix. Going further, right could be tkl, 60% or full.
First of all, how do you detect the finger pressure if the switch is bottomed out by the solenoid? If you solve that one, then I think position sensing with coils could work and would be easier from a construction perspective than pressure sensors. Maybe a 2 stage spring so it doesn't bottom out with just solenoid power, so finger pressure still adds a tiny measurable distance to the movement? I think this would be an issue unless the springs are VERY precisely made and don't get weaker with use. I think some other solution is needed.I do not think that springs need to be precise. Moreover, we can calibrate the driving current of solenoid if changes in spring constant would be a problem. Maybe I should have written it in more detail. Notice that:
<EDIT> If we use 100cN springs and say 60cN solenoid, we could still use position sensing to detect when to release the solenoid (actuate at any chosen position, release when the position is less than it would be for the combined solenoid force + say 20cN?), but the "tactility" will be less than if we use a stronger solenoid and bottom out the switch with it. </EDIT>This looks like you want to drive the solenoid with either full current or nothing. I assume a variable current source. Now, micro-controller typically do not have it. But it not a big deal we probaly can simulate it with DAC & ADC (and maybe also amplifier) combo.
The forces will depend on the switch stem position AND the spring constant. Inconsistent springs = different pressure at a given position (position sensing) OR different position for a given pressure (pressure sensing). Position sensing will be like normal switches in terms of actuating at a certain position, pressure sensing would of course be based on pressure instead, so the switches could actuate in different positions based on the spring force.Ok, it really looks like you assume only digital driving for the driving coil.
Can be a small resistive strain gauge, I found some 5.1mm x 4.2mm 350 ohm gauges for about 50 cents each.Can you post link to the part specification?
<EDIT> Another way to do it is to mount the pressure sensor between the solenoid and keyboard case. That way all pressure measured will be due to the weight of the solenoid / keycap and finger pressure. Don't have to worry about contacts going to moving parts. </EDIT>OK, but that means that you need to compute the pressure user exerts at the switch the same way I indicated above because solenoid force is added to the user press force. So you probably already found the answer to your first question.
<EDIT> Lots of editing, sorry... Looks like you're calculating the power based on 0.06s pulse per press... What if you hold the key down, like when playing a game? I'd assume the solenoid needs to run continuously in that case, so they may need an external supply and possibly even heat dissipation of some sort. </EDIT>That is the reason I mentioned 6KRO only. If user presses more than 6 keys at once then any additional keys will not get the solenoid assist and user defined force/travel diagram. They will be only dump linear switches. 6KRO looks like possible almost for sure. 60KRO is not possible from USB power only.
If you "feather" the solenoid with PWM or current-based solution to adjust the duty cycle you need to leave some work to the finger (minimum finger force before release + max solenoid force < spring force needed to bottom out) in order to sense when the user is releasing the key by detecting the position moving away from bottom out.Correct that inequality must be obeyed in average. We can disobey it for a predefined (short) time and predefined x travel. Not sure how useful effects that can provide. But we must obey it in general so that a key does not get struck at some x position.
Which gives me an idea for mouse force feedback for FPS games... you know that there are lots of shooting games and that a gun provides recoil when fired? Perhaps a heavy linear solenoid mounted front to back in the mouse could give varying amounts of "recoil" for shooting games.Or require electrically conductive mouse pad and put a set of coils in the mouse. Make the mouse a linear motor. Imagine driving mouse in a funny patterns over the pad even when user does not touch it :cool:
...Which gives me an idea for mouse force feedback for FPS games... you know that there are lots of shooting games and that a gun provides recoil when fired? Perhaps a heavy linear solenoid mounted front to back in the mouse could give varying amounts of "recoil" for shooting games.Or require electrically conductive mouse pad and put a set of coils in the mouse. Make the mouse a linear motor. Imagine driving mouse in a funny patterns over the pad even when user does not touch it :cool:
Which gives me an idea for mouse force feedback for FPS games...it's worth a shot marketing old as new, but this and ensuing ifeel line of force/tactile feedback logitech mice never caught on. tactile feedback was better for the desktop than games even imho
[little snip]
hoggy, if a protocol (base protocol like SPI and packet contents order or something) and connector (RJ11 for instance) are specified, it could be implemented by any company (or individual). The thing is, though, which half will have the controller in? Or would it be like my idea with a controller both sides and the one actually hooked to the PC becomes the master automatically and the other goes into slave mode, only sending packets out to the main controller. That may need to be declared in the specification document for a "Hoggy modular ergo" compatible keyboard half.
Qihqi, have you seen the access akc090?
learn to stenotypeinterest with this though, steno board actually easy to make with handwired
I was thinking today about the palm switches Input Nirvana, Sordna and I think Lanx added to their Kinesis's. More keyboards should have them.
http://stenoboard.com
I'm not so sure. That design looks like a bunch of fat aluminium spacebars balanced precariously on keyswitches, with no stabilisershttp://stenoboard.com
I think these guys have a much better design:
http://stenosaurus.blogspot.com
I'm not so sure. That design looks like a bunch of fat aluminium spacebars balanced precariously on keyswitches, with no stabilisersHuh? These keycaps are no larger than about 1.5u, they just have no “skirts”. They should work just fine.
Just for fun. No need to justify ideas.
What do you think is missing from the products available (or even projects in development)?
To provide a context to get us started - combinations.
I'm thinking I'd love a tkl with a built in roller mouse...
Just for fun. No need to justify ideas.
What do you think is missing from the products available (or even projects in development)?
To provide a context to get us started - combinations.
I'm thinking I'd love a tkl with a built in roller mouse...
this: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.msg1509793#msg1509793
and some time ago in this thread the DataHand thumb switches were mentioned: I have never noticed any strain or tired sensation in my thumbs from their use. low force, short travel, nice to use.
the only challenge I see with this is that you can not chord with one finger
While stenosaurus is certainly prettier, stenoboard being fully split can be set up at any angle on a tripod for correct height and changing angle.i like which with split mirabai knight you use it
The professional versions of these are about $5000 and allow a stenographer to do real time transcription for many hours
http://www.infinitytraditional.com/infinity-ergonomic-court-w-lcd/Show Image(http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-ofn6eaz/products/77/images/271/12_Extended_MicaRed_small__51320.1404861786.1280.1280.jpg?c=2)
How about touch sensitive keycaps? I think these would be ideal for modifier chords, to reduce activation stress by half.Can you explain a bit more of how you’re imagining this to work?