If you are doing this just to test out layouts I would see if you could find a 14mm punch and use that into some posterboard. Granted it may not be sturdy enough to actually type for a significant period of time. granted you could probably use a cardboard box for that. If you want to type for any period of time then you will want a plate.I was assuming a broach was going to be the best option. Unfortunately I don't have a press. I do have a drill press with a two directional clamping table (previously owned by a friend of mine who was an aircraft mechanic).
This video is for a keyway broach but the use is the same. You just have a round hole to start with and not a shaft.
I was assuming a broach was going to be the best option. Unfortunately I don't have a press. I do have a drill press with a two directional clamping table (previously owned by a friend of mine who was an aircraft mechanic).
I was looking into a square drill bit because it seems like the most realistic (time wise) approach.
I might try using 1/8" acrylic and scoring it and then using a coping saw.
Does anyone have an idea what a one off plate would cost to get it made at a metal shop? What's the cheapest approach if I get it professionally done? CNC, laser cutting, etc... I am sure I can design the plates in cad.
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I can buy a 14mm broach for $300, so I guess that gives me an idea of what I would have to invest to make my own correctly.
Yes. I understand that I would need an arbor press to use a broach for exactly the reasons you point out.Thanks for the suggestions guys. I can buy a 14mm broach for $300, so I guess that gives me an idea of what I would have to invest to make my own correctly.
I would highly suggest using some sort of press for using a broach. They are made of high speed steel at the lightest duty. It is very strong, hard, and holds an edge good enough to cut stainless steel for a good amount of time providing proper feeds and speeds for machining. But it is very brittle. Any side load or twisting in the wrong direction and the snap surprisingly easy.
IE you will not drill out a broken HSS tap unless you have a solid cobalt drill bit or better. For around 1/4" sizes they are almost 30USD each. Shipping on an arbor press is going to be expensive as well due to the weight of cast iron.
I was assuming a broach was going to be the best option. Unfortunately I don't have a press. I do have a drill press with a two directional clamping table (previously owned by a friend of mine who was an aircraft mechanic).
I was looking into a square drill bit because it seems like the most realistic (time wise) approach.
I might try using 1/8" acrylic and scoring it and then using a coping saw.
Does anyone have an idea what a one off plate would cost to get it made at a metal shop? What's the cheapest approach if I get it professionally done? CNC, laser cutting, etc... I am sure I can design the plates in cad.
The shop that I've used for both rounds of stainless steel plates quoted me $100 for a one off plate of stainless and $90 for a one off aluminum plate.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+drill+a+square+hole&page=&utm_source=opensearchit's not autamotic when you print the file
I really don't see someone broaching 80+ holes accurately with a home setup although i do think it is an interesting idea i just don't see it working out
Something like this would probably work, but I haven't seen ones big enough...
http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2469
Something like this would probably work, but I haven't seen ones big enough...
http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2469
those are for wood only. They would be destroyed by metal very quickly unless it was very thin and non tempered (o stock as we called it in the Navy) though they would probably work in acrylic. Make sure you use a backing board of hard wood to prevent chipout.
Oh for sure. I can't imagine anyone making a metal plate by hand -- too difficult to work with.
I was thinking 1mm-thick fiber glass.
I really don't see someone broaching 80+ holes accurately with a home setup although i do think it is an interesting idea i just don't see it working out
it can be done. If you can accurately line up the flats on the broach what would be stopping you. The biggest detrmining factor would be an accurate layout with a scribe and not a sharpie. Scribe lines on layout fluid produces very sharp and crisp lines. Next use of a proper center drill (with good layout lines and good eyeballs, accurate to withing .005" or .010" is fairly easily attainable. Next would be drilling and opening the holes of up whatever size for the pilot drill for the square broach.
I really don't see someone broaching 80+ holes accurately with a home setup although i do think it is an interesting idea i just don't see it working out
it can be done. If you can accurately line up the flats on the broach what would be stopping you. The biggest detrmining factor would be an accurate layout with a scribe and not a sharpie. Scribe lines on layout fluid produces very sharp and crisp lines. Next use of a proper center drill (with good layout lines and good eyeballs, accurate to withing .005" or .010" is fairly easily attainable. Next would be drilling and opening the holes of up whatever size for the pilot drill for the square broach.
I know i can get fairly accurate just off scribe lines since that is how i laid out my numpad when cutting it but I think I would still use my vertical mill for the layout for the holes for broaching. I'm not saying it isn't possible to do i just don't really see it working out that well for most people trying it
Very true, I would use a mill myself. But mostly to eliminate the need for the physical layout on the steel. Just watch the numbers and cut. That might change though when I see how it works when i get my sherline late this month/early next month.
I think the way to do it would be a jig on the table of the drill press more as a guide to slide the plate along. This would at least help with the holes being parallel with each other and rows lining up.
Very true, I would use a mill myself. But mostly to eliminate the need for the physical layout on the steel. Just watch the numbers and cut. That might change though when I see how it works when i get my sherline late this month/early next month.
I think the way to do it would be a jig on the table of the drill press more as a guide to slide the plate along. This would at least help with the holes being parallel with each other and rows lining up.
that is kind of where i foresee the problem being the cumulative error adding up as you go.
Something like this would probably work, but I haven't seen ones big enough...
http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2469
those are for wood only. They would be destroyed by metal very quickly unless it was very thin and non tempered (o stock as we called it in the Navy) though they would probably work in acrylic. Make sure you use a backing board of hard wood to prevent chipout.
I really don't see someone broaching 80+ holes accurately with a home setup although i do think it is an interesting idea i just don't see it working out
it can be done. If you can accurately line up the flats on the broach what would be stopping you. The biggest detrmining factor would be an accurate layout with a scribe and not a sharpie. Scribe lines on layout fluid produces very sharp and crisp lines. Next use of a proper center drill (with good layout lines and good eyeballs, accurate to withing .005" or .010" is fairly easily attainable. Next would be drilling and opening the holes of up whatever size for the pilot drill for the square broach.
I really don't see someone broaching 80+ holes accurately with a home setup although i do think it is an interesting idea i just don't see it working out
it can be done. If you can accurately line up the flats on the broach what would be stopping you. The biggest detrmining factor would be an accurate layout with a scribe and not a sharpie. Scribe lines on layout fluid produces very sharp and crisp lines. Next use of a proper center drill (with good layout lines and good eyeballs, accurate to withing .005" or .010" is fairly easily attainable. Next would be drilling and opening the holes of up whatever size for the pilot drill for the square broach.
I know i can get fairly accurate just off scribe lines since that is how i laid out my numpad when cutting it but I think I would still use my vertical mill for the layout for the holes for broaching. I'm not saying it isn't possible to do i just don't really see it working out that well for most people trying it
Very true, I would use a mill myself. But mostly to eliminate the need for the physical layout on the steel. Just watch the numbers and cut. That might change though when I see how it works when i get my sherline late this month/early next month.
I think the way to do it would be a jig on the table of the drill press more as a guide to slide the plate along. This would at least help with the holes being parallel with each other and rows lining up.
Very true, I would use a mill myself. But mostly to eliminate the need for the physical layout on the steel. Just watch the numbers and cut. That might change though when I see how it works when i get my sherline late this month/early next month.
I think the way to do it would be a jig on the table of the drill press more as a guide to slide the plate along. This would at least help with the holes being parallel with each other and rows lining up.
I would use a scribe to mark all my parallel lines and centers before I started any actual drilling. I think this should reduce the incremental drift errors.
that is kind of where i foresee the problem being the cumulative error adding up as you go.
Something like this would probably work, but I haven't seen ones big enough...
http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2469
those are for wood only. They would be destroyed by metal very quickly unless it was very thin and non tempered (o stock as we called it in the Navy) though they would probably work in acrylic. Make sure you use a backing board of hard wood to prevent chipout.
Oh for sure. I can't imagine anyone making a metal plate by hand -- too difficult to work with.
I was thinking 1mm-thick fiber glass.
Something like this would probably work, but I haven't seen ones big enough...
http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2469
those are for wood only. They would be destroyed by metal very quickly unless it was very thin and non tempered (o stock as we called it in the Navy) though they would probably work in acrylic. Make sure you use a backing board of hard wood to prevent chipout.
Oh for sure. I can't imagine anyone making a metal plate by hand -- too difficult to work with.
I was thinking 1mm-thick fiber glass.
I had not thought of fiberglass as an option, but I will add that to the list of potential materials. I have never worked with fiberglass before, so I am not sure what to expect, but worth a shot if I can find some.
Haha. Duly noted. :)Something like this would probably work, but I haven't seen ones big enough...
http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2469
those are for wood only. They would be destroyed by metal very quickly unless it was very thin and non tempered (o stock as we called it in the Navy) though they would probably work in acrylic. Make sure you use a backing board of hard wood to prevent chipout.
Oh for sure. I can't imagine anyone making a metal plate by hand -- too difficult to work with.
I was thinking 1mm-thick fiber glass.
I had not thought of fiberglass as an option, but I will add that to the list of potential materials. I have never worked with fiberglass before, so I am not sure what to expect, but worth a shot if I can find some.
Don't do it in the house, and don't wear any good clothes. Also, take a shower and scrub the hell out of your arms before putting anything on with longer sleeves than what you was already wearing. Best suggestion would be to get some of those tyvek suits. It won't kill you just very very annoying and itchy as anything you can imagine.
Unfortunately I can not find metric square hole punches and 14mm is 9/16" which is not included in any of the imperial sets I am finding either. :(Something like this would probably work, but I haven't seen ones big enough...
http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2469
those are for wood only. They would be destroyed by metal very quickly unless it was very thin and non tempered (o stock as we called it in the Navy) though they would probably work in acrylic. Make sure you use a backing board of hard wood to prevent chipout.
for prototyping I am considering using 5mm wood, so that could be an option. good call on the hardwood...
Punch & die won't do the trick? Should be pretty cheap to buy as long as you can find someone with a punching machine. We have a hydraulic punching machine at work that will punch 30mm holes through 15mm of steel like it was nothing, a 2 ton or so manual punch will go to 15-20mm in 2mm steel easily enough - that's good enough for a keyboard plate, I'd have thought.Thanks for the link. This an interesting option as well. Thx.
http://www.megafab.com/StockSquarePunch.html for example have 9/16 punches and dies in stock.
Laser cutters? Kids don't know you were even born.
Cherry spec sheet will have the distance from switch plate to PCB. I don't recall what that distance is either but its there.Its 5mm. I am using a 5mm acrylic plate on my sprit boards.
When using acrylic, I highly recommend using a 1/16" or 1.5mm plate, with a thicker acrylic plate directly below it (with holes cut a little bigger). If you’re direct wiring, the second plate can be like 1/4" or 6mm or even thicker; if you have a PCB, then there’s a limit to the combined thickness of the two plates (I think ~4.5mm, but I’m not precisely sure).I like that idea. How do you laminate them? Just glue?
Using two plates like this lets you get something that clips the switches in quite well, while also being pretty sturdy.
If making a plate for Alps switches, either 1/16" or 1.5mm will work as a plate thickness for the top plate, but the size of the hole should be a little different depending on plate thickness.
If making a plate for SMK (“monterey blue” etc.) switches, then anything over 1.5mm is too thick for the top plate (1/16" is ~1.6mm).
I like that idea. How do you laminate them? Just glue?Superglue (Cyanoacrylate) works great ... but only if you are going to paint the plate. The fumes from superglue will make clear plastic foggy.
This is giving me ideas. I will be using the enabler PCBs because I have a ton of them and this type of prototyping is exactly why I bought them.I like that idea. How do you laminate them? Just glue?Superglue (Cyanoacrylate) works great ... but only if you are going to paint the plate. The fumes from superglue will make clear plastic foggy.
When building my ErgoDox, I used custom-made 1.5 mm acrylic plates reinforced with strips of acrylic on the undersides. I wished then that I had done the two-layer method.
Getting different thicknesses cut could require more than one order, depending on where you look. That is why I proposed two layers of 1.5 mm acrylic. That is thick enough. Three layers of 1.5 mm acrylic glued together will just touch the PCB.
You could home build fibreglass or carbon fibre pretty easily.
There is a cadre of people on this forum heavily invested in selling these things so every time some one asks about prototyping diy at home the answer is always laser, waterjet , cnc.
Complete horse poo. There are about a million diy approaches to pcb making on youtube. The same goes for cutting and cleaning up metal. A die grinder would be nice but a drill press, a dremel and a small set of files would do the job just fine. Aluminum is messy but easy to cut.
Home Depot or Canadian Tire have nice little pieces of metal to do that with.
CnC machining is like using a nuke to kill a sparrow.
Straight cuts with a jigsaw for aluminum plate.
Straight cuts with a grinding disk
If you don't cut outside the lines and have a decent set of small files I would think you could cut quite a nice plate over a weekend. If you are of the mindset that your hours are worth a specific amount of money and you need to make a board and get a 35% profit margin out of it then it is impossible without expensive tools BUT...Ya. I would rather spend labor than money if I can. :)
If it is a hobby for yourself then something extremely high quality can be made with a high cost in labour hours but very little in terms of machinery or other capital costs.
You could home build fibreglass or carbon fibre pretty easily.
There is a cadre of people on this forum heavily invested in selling these things so every time some one asks about prototyping diy at home the answer is always laser, waterjet , cnc.
Complete horse poo. There are about a million diy approaches to pcb making on youtube. The same goes for cutting and cleaning up metal. A die grinder would be nice but a drill press, a dremel and a small set of files would do the job just fine. Aluminum is messy but easy to cut.
Home Depot or Canadian Tire have nice little pieces of metal to do that with.
CnC machining is like using a nuke to kill a sparrow.
Ya exactly. As you know, I don't have much extra time right now, but I enjoy doing this sort of prototyping. If I come up with something cool that other people are interested in, I would absolutely be getting them professionally made.You could home build fibreglass or carbon fibre pretty easily.
There is a cadre of people on this forum heavily invested in selling these things so every time some one asks about prototyping diy at home the answer is always laser, waterjet , cnc.
Complete horse poo. There are about a million diy approaches to pcb making on youtube. The same goes for cutting and cleaning up metal. A die grinder would be nice but a drill press, a dremel and a small set of files would do the job just fine. Aluminum is messy but easy to cut.
Home Depot or Canadian Tire have nice little pieces of metal to do that with.
CnC machining is like using a nuke to kill a sparrow.
While I usually suggest waterjet or laser for plate manufacture, it can be done for relatively cheap capital investment but like you said very expensive in the personal labor. This was the biggest reason I suggested it for Swill here. Not that he can't achieve a quality product but I know his personal project time is at a very high premium with all he has going on right now.
Also, the biggest reason I suggest this route for someone looking to sell them is the tolerances needed for a quality switch plate are very tight for what the average person can achieve with hand tools. Very expensive tooling and equipment are needed to produce repeatable quality plates with tight tolerances.
In my job (union millwright), time investment for a job goes up at an exponential rate with the tolerances that need to be held. This is true in any machining operation.
I am not saying swill can't produce a switch plate worthy of selling, I just know that he won't be able to make them quick enough for a group buy type deal. But he isn't doing it to sell. He is doing it for prototyping purposes.
Edit: Does anyone know if the 6 unit spacebar has its own stabilizer size or does it use the same size stab as a 6.25 unit space key?
I did a little looking and I might be out of luck on the 6 unit spacebar with stabs. I think I may have to just use a 6.25 unit spacebar and move the bottom row .125 units left to center that row. We will see.Edit: Does anyone know if the 6 unit spacebar has its own stabilizer size or does it use the same size stab as a 6.25 unit space key?
I think the 6 unit has a different stabilizer size than most 6.25's If you see 6.25's with extra stems, i think the narrower of the outer stems also happen to correspond to the stem placement on a "normal" 6x spacebar.
I could be wrong though: I don't have any 6x spaceabr keyboards handy.
That's a wood bit. The square is a chisel and it surrounds a wood drill bit.Well, it would work on acrylic plates, wouldn't it?
If the acrylic is crazy thick or you want it to fracture.That's a wood bit. The square is a chisel and it surrounds a wood drill bit.Well, it would work on acrylic plates, wouldn't it?
If the acrylic is crazy thick or you want it to fracture.That's a wood bit. The square is a chisel and it surrounds a wood drill bit.Well, it would work on acrylic plates, wouldn't it?
Stepped bits are your friend for acrylic.If the acrylic is crazy thick or you want it to fracture.That's a wood bit. The square is a chisel and it surrounds a wood drill bit.Well, it would work on acrylic plates, wouldn't it?
Yes and no. It would make a hole, but it will have a very high chance of splitting and breaking out on the backside. The other thing to remember is with acrylic, you have to be careful when selecting drill bits, especially larger ones as they can and will self feed. When this happens there are a couple things that can happen. Mostly, it will rip the piece out of the vise and damage the part.
Stepped bits are your friend for acrylic.If the acrylic is crazy thick or you want it to fracture.That's a wood bit. The square is a chisel and it surrounds a wood drill bit.Well, it would work on acrylic plates, wouldn't it?
Yes and no. It would make a hole, but it will have a very high chance of splitting and breaking out on the backside. The other thing to remember is with acrylic, you have to be careful when selecting drill bits, especially larger ones as they can and will self feed. When this happens there are a couple things that can happen. Mostly, it will rip the piece out of the vise and damage the part.
Ordered a square woodworking chisel with a round drill bit inside for $14 (there was a temporal price drop):
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-1pcs-14mm-HSS-Mortising-Drill-Bit-Chisel-Cut-Square-Hole-Cutter-Mortise-Tenon-Joint/32606494380.html
Will try to make a TKL board for my VB87M case from a soft plastic, maybe reinforce it with a few ribs and then do some p2p wiring (got a bag of 65g Zealios).
Of course a square 14mm broach will be better (it should work pretty well even for steel plates), but it's hard to get.
Amazon sells those for $384 a piece http://www.amazon.com/Dumont-Uncoated-Square-Metric-Broach/dp/B01BFNCPLM/Show Image(http://files.usmre.com/4309/standard-square.jpg)
The problem is that a lot (all?) of these metal broaches have a minimum cutting length through the work piece. The Dumont you linked has a minimum LOC of 1/2". I'm not sure why, exactly, they have a minimum cut length but that limitation alone leads me to believe they're not the best tool for the materials we're talking about here: generally 1.5mm aluminum and steel plates. The cost is another factor.
I tend to think a punch might be a better tool for this application
The problem is that a lot (all?) of these metal broaches have a minimum cutting length through the work piece. The Dumont you linked has a minimum LOC of 1/2". I'm not sure why, exactly, they have a minimum cut length but that limitation alone leads me to believe they're not the best tool for the materials we're talking about here: generally 1.5mm aluminum and steel plates. The cost is another factor.
I tend to think a punch might be a better tool for this application
All broaches have that limitation. Think of it as a stepped chisel, each tooth tries to take off a tiny amount of material from the edge of the hole. If there's not enough material behind the edge, it will bend the material rather than cutting it and make what is commonly known as "a horrible mess". Not to mention the noise. Take a piece of thin sheet metal, put it in a vice with a couple of inches "free" above the jaws, and then hit the top, diagonally with a bastard file (thus hitting the edge "flat on" with the teeth of the file). That's what broaching a piece of thin sheet is going to be. You could probably get away with clamping or otherwise fixing your plate to a sacrificial block of metal (or possibly hardwood) for the duration of the process (drilling and broaching) but it would be a risky operation, IMO.
Yeah, use a punch.
14mm square stock is cheap, with a small cylindrical grinding die you can make / sharpen a punch head in seconds. Hell, if you're doing aluminium sheet, you could make a handheld punch from CRS and not even bother to harden it (although you'd probably only get one or two clean holes out of it before having to regrind)
Might give that a go later, actually.