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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: coollettuce on Wed, 01 July 2009, 19:14:20
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Ordered one of these zines (http://dvzine.org/stuff/index.html), and rearranged my model M's keycaps and have been practicing.
I went from 50WPM on QWERTY to 5 on Dvorak. Any tips?
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Dvorak will not help you type faster. In fact, there is no evidence that any alternative keyboard layout will. It is only more comfortable, and there is actual evidence to support this. Learn it if you want to have a little fun with it and if you have the free time.
Also, check out Colemak (http://colemak.com/) and Carpalx (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?home). I'm not completely sold on any one layout, but check them out and decide which you might like best.
And if you decide to stick with QWERTY, just learn how to touch type and you can most likely reach 70-80 WPM pretty easily.
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Go back to Qwerty?
I was having lots of pain from QWERTY so I want to switch for comfort.
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If you want an on-screen keyboard picture then I found a program called Custom Desktop Logo (http://customdesktoplogo.wikidot.com/) pretty good during the day I attempted to learn Colemak (5wpm is right, I had a deadline so I gave up after three paragraphs.) - you'll need a keyboard layout picture but they should be easy to find.
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If you want an on-screen keyboard picture then I found a program called Custom Desktop Logo (http://customdesktoplogo.wikidot.com/) pretty good during the day I attempted to learn Colemak (5wpm is right, I had a deadline so I gave up after three paragraphs.) - you'll need your keyboard layout picture but they should be easy to find.
Thank you very much!
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I tried an gave up lol. It's just not my thing =/
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I want to learn Dvorak, but I just don't have time. I should have done it when I was not taking part-time studies and did not have a baby. Nowadays, I'm just to busy. Plus, since I have to type extensively in both English and French, I would have to use an international Dvorak layout...not easy to find on most systems.
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I was having lots of pain from QWERTY so I want to switch for comfort.
I have a lot of pain too. I try to take break as often as I can which is easier said than done. Do you rest your wrists when typing? If yes, would it help if you try not to? I mean when you rest your wrists, you need to stretch your fingers and you are also putting more strain on your wrists. When not resting your wrists, part of the reaching to the keys are done by your whole arms. Moreover, if your pain is from tendonitis or carpal tunnel syndrome, resting your wrists while typing can put more pressure on the painful areas.
Personally, when not typing, I tried to put my wrists on my lap instead of my desk. Extensive use of the mouse can also cause a lot of pain. I alternate between left and right hand when using my mouse.
Just some thoughts.
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Patrick, good suggestions. I gotta try the wrists in my lap trick.
This Evoluent mouse I'm using is pretty nice so far.
Interesting thread in Slashdot. "Is Dvorak gaining ground". (http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/15/0043237)
I will definitely look into the Evoluent mouse. It's expensive, but then again I've spent so much on keyboards already :-) Plus, I strong believe that most of my pain in my right wrist comes from the mouse and not from the keyboard. If the pain was caused by the keyboard, both my wrist would hurt about the same.
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Ripster: Does the Evoluent mouse help significantly in terms of relieving the pain? I have to do something about my pain. Very often, I can have a solid grip on anything from my right hand. If I try, my hand will shake. It's that bad. Unfortunately, I cannot stop using computers since I make a living using them.
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At the moment I am typing in Colemak and average around 70-90 wpm. I was at about the same speed with QWERTY, but was curious to try allegedly more efficient layouts. Well I find colemak more comfortable to type on as I still type in QWERTY on other's computers. My fingers are not flailing about as much on colemak, and my fingers seem to stay on the home row for much longer. I am forced however to look at the keyboard now when typing on QWERTY, and I am a lot slower on QWERTY these days, probably from not using it for awhile. I also tried DVORAK for a few days, but upon learning about colemak, had to use colemak instead. I don't regret doing so since it is an easier shift from QWERTY to Colemak than it is from QWERTY to DVORAK.
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P.S. I wish this forum would allow title edits.
Your Control Panel/Your Profile if that's what you meant.
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I have previously thought of giving alternative key layouts a shot.
However, the nature of my occupation has me using more than one computer on at least 80% of my working days. Quite often I end up accessing several computer terminals in the course of a single day, or several different laptops. So by no means can I learn an alternative layout and use it whenever I type on a keyboard.
Nevertheless, seeing how I sit at a steady rate of ~630-640CPM when feeding a terminal and at about ~600-610 when I'm simply writing instead of copying, I can't help but be somewhat intrigued by the supposed benefits presented by alternative layouts.
May I ask a simple question;Can anyone working under similar conditions share their experience with alternative layouts?
Another reason I'm thinking of giving an alternative layout a shot is the fact that I'm rather young (21), so adjusting to an alternative layout may prove to be a smart move in the long term.
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I have previously thought of giving alternative key layouts a shot.
However, the nature of my occupation has me using more than one computer on at least 80% of my working days. Quite often I end up accessing several computer terminals in the course of a single day, or several different laptops. So by no means can I learn an alternative layout and use it whenever I type on a keyboard.
Nevertheless, seeing how I sit at a steady rate of ~630-640CPM when feeding a terminal and at about ~600-610 when I'm simply writing instead of copying, I can't help but be somewhat intrigued by the supposed benefits presented by alternative layouts.
May I ask a simple question;Can anyone working under similar conditions share their experience with alternative layouts?
Another reason I'm thinking of giving an alternative layout a shot is the fact that I'm rather young (21), so adjusting to an alternative layout may prove to be a smart move in the long term.
Well it took me awhile to get up to speed in Colemak, and there are times when I absolutely have to use QWERTY. From my experience, and others as well, it helps if you already touch type in QWERTY. If you do, at first you will go blank in QWERTY once you get your "other" layout whichever you choose up to speed. It will be slow going relearning QWERTY, I probably am down to 40 to 50 wpm from around 70. But with your environment, I think practicing on your alternative layout while using QWERTY at work means you can sustain both.
You probably would need to devote an hour a day to learning the new layout. What I did was to get a copy of Mavis Beacon, set the default language to Colemak. What happens is when you load up MAVIS beacon just ignore the QWERTY layout and do the exercises in the layout of your choosing. In my case I was using Colemak on the Mavis Beacon exercises.
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I will definitely look into the Evoluent mouse. It's expensive, but then again I've spent so much on keyboards already :-) Plus, I strong believe that most of my pain in my right wrist comes from the mouse and not from the keyboard. If the pain was caused by the keyboard, both my wrist would hurt about the same.
Another good way to avoid RSI is to use a variety of different shaped pointing devices and keyboards so your hands are not using one thing for too long. And, there are those ergonomic keyboards like the IBM M15 and the Microsoft Natural, to name a few. I'm sure they call them ergonomic for a reaosn.
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Another good way to avoid RSI is to use a variety of different shaped pointing devices and keyboards so your hands are not using one thing for too long. And, there are those ergonomic keyboards like the IBM M15 and the Microsoft Natural, to name a few. I'm sure they call them ergonomic for a reaosn.
I do that too. At the office, I have my Microsoft Natural Elite plus either my AT101W or ABS M1 connected to my PC. Now, if only I could stop typing on speedtest (http://speedtest.10-fast-fingers.com/) at home, I will be putting less strain on my wrists and arms. But, I just can't stop. It's so addictive when you have a keyboard you like.
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Never got Dvorak... Just too random. Colemak is pretty cool though. That said, Im happy with QWERTY.
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I switched to Dvorak over a year ago myself. As other people have said, you won't gain a lot of speed at all but it is SIGNIFICANTLY more comfortable. Since the switch, I no longer have to use an ergonomic keyboard.
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Never got Dvorak... Just too random. Colemak is pretty cool though. That said, Im happy with QWERTY.
It's the opposite of random, QWERTY is random.
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It's the opposite of random, QWERTY is random.
I wish Dvorak or Colemak was the standard layout as they are better planned out than QWERTY. I would love to switch, but I use too many computers other than my own, so I would forever be confused and never really adjust to a new layout. That, and I really just don't care enough. If I were a writer, or something, and only used my PC, I would probably switch.
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I found the ABCD Dvorak Typing Course (http://gigliwood.com/abcd/) very useful when I switched. My reasons for switching were due to comfort rather than speed gains. From memory I read that it takes most people couple of months to regain the same speed, however it took me longer since I tend to be slower than average with learning coordination tasks. I don't regret the time taken.
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i finally made the switch to dvorak this past february. is it worth it? depends. its definitely more comfortable to type. faster? im still faster using qwerty - but in the long-term, i believe i can be >as fast< in dvorak.
learning dvorak can be really frustrating. the feedback loop (for me, anyway) was measured in weeks.
heres what i did:
1. i purchased the most current version of Mavis Beacon Typing Tutor. it doesnt have dvorak "lessons" - but - you can "trick" Mavis into teaching you dvorak by setting your keyboard layout to dvorak in Windows. the layout on-screen will remain in qwerty, but you will be able to type dvorak key chars. i like mavis - she's cheap - and the program is pretty nice for what you get - you are always doing somethign "different" - its not the same ol "aaaa aaaa aaaa" repetition.
2. set aside a time for practice. for me, it was right when i woke up from 8am to 830. 30 - 45 mins seems to be the sweet spot for me.
3. lower your expectations. think 90 days before being comfortable typing in dvorak.
4. after the 90 day mark - and depending on what you do for a living - set aside 1 day a week to type ion dvorak at work. itll be weird. itll be difficult. i did it on fridays since nobody got a lot of work done fridays anyway...
5. after a while (120 days or so), i plateaued on Mavis, so i set up a macro in windows to ctrl-shift between US and DVORAK keyboard layouts (no shell scripting required - its in the GUI). from then on, i would shift over to dvorak whenever i needed to type something that wasnt "time-sensitive". after a while, i got faster.
6. i purchased a blank keyboard for use at home.
7. at some point - in the near future - i will purchase another blank keyboard for work.
im still not as fast as typing in qwerty, but now i can type in dvorak without really thinking about it. it seems to me, the speed will come in time.
im slow and some think im stupid, so...your experience will probably vary.
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i finally made the switch to dvorak this past february. is it worth it? depends. its definitely more comfortable to type. faster? im still faster using qwerty - but in the long-term, i believe i can be >as fast< in dvorak.
learning dvorak can be really frustrating. the feedback loop (for me, anyway) was measured in weeks.
heres what i did:
1. i purchased the most current version of Mavis Beacon Typing Tutor. it doesnt have dvorak "lessons" - but - you can "trick" Mavis into teaching you dvorak by setting your keyboard layout to dvorak in Windows. the layout on-screen will remain in qwerty, but you will be able to type dvorak key chars. i like mavis - she's cheap - and the program is pretty nice for what you get - you are always doing somethign "different" - its not the same ol "aaaa aaaa aaaa" repetition.
2. set aside a time for practice. for me, it was right when i woke up from 8am to 830. 30 - 45 mins seems to be the sweet spot for me.
3. lower your expectations. think 90 days before being comfortable typing in dvorak.
4. after the 90 day mark - and depending on what you do for a living - set aside 1 day a week to type ion dvorak at work. itll be weird. itll be difficult. i did it on fridays since nobody got a lot of work done fridays anyway...
5. after a while (120 days or so), i plateaued on Mavis, so i set up a macro in windows to ctrl-shift between US and DVORAK keyboard layouts (no shell scripting required - its in the GUI). from then on, i would shift over to dvorak whenever i needed to type something that wasnt "time-sensitive". after a while, i got faster.
6. i purchased a blank keyboard for use at home.
7. at some point - in the near future - i will purchase another blank keyboard for work.
im still not as fast as typing in qwerty, but now i can type in dvorak without really thinking about it. it seems to me, the speed will come in time.
im slow and some think im stupid, so...your experience will probably vary.
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Thank you very much for all the tips!
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And, there are those ergonomic keyboards like the IBM M15 and the Microsoft Natural, to name a few. I'm sure they call them ergonomic for a reaosn.
Well, the problem is, classic ergonomic keyboards were conceived with the notion of the keyboard being the only input device. You probably know how realistic that is...
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i like mavis - she's cheap
Haha, no, *I'm* cheap, I'm using version 9 of the program that I dug out! It crashes sometimes if sound is enabled, which is awkward as some lessons use sound. I see comments on Amazon that even newer versions lock up, I'm surprised they haven't fixed that.
I tend to stick to TypeFaster (http://www.typefastertypingtutor.com/) and Typing of the Dead. TypeFaster is good for changing to different key layouts. TOTD isn't.
I've held back from learning an alternative layout. I just don't see how you can be comfortable holding two layouts in your brain. Remembering where the letters are should be OK. But you need to learn whole words to type fast. The concept of having to learn two different patterns for every common word just scares me tbh.
Has anyone become truly "bilingual" in keyboard layouts? Meaning they can comfortably switch layouts without their muscle memory guiding them the wrong way?
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i can say that at this point im "bi-layout". its not that big of a deal, really. theres nothing to worry about. i can switch pretty much instantly.
the cognitive dissonance is a major side-effect in the beginning when you are learning the layout. its a weird feeling, to be sure, but it does go away (it took a couple weeks for me though).
brains are cool like that, though. trust your body to make the adjustments for you.
as for reports of mavis crashing - never happened. im running xp x64, and its been fine.
not to belabor the point but - what i like about mavis is that you are doing >different< typing exercises every 5 mins. one minute you are playing a game, the next you are taking dictation, followed by "chord exercises". to me this is better than most of the free-ware software ive used where you have x number of levels or exercises, and the "typing context" is exactly the same.
i find switching typing contexts to be an important learning tool (and underrated/ignored by the FLOSS developers). this experience was supported when i started typing in dvorak at work on fridays. it was much much different - and more difficult - than typing dvorak in mavis. this leads me to believe that switching contexts while learning to type is important in some way...
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When I was learning Colemak, I didn't really have any special techniques; I just kinda used it, and eventually got quick at it. One thing I did a lot of was IM conversations. These are pretty good as they force you to type quickly to reply to stuff in time. I certainly never did anything like typing lessons or typing “excercises”. With a bit of practice, you get there soon enough... :)
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I tend to stick to TypeFaster (http://www.typefastertypingtutor.com/) and Typing of the Dead. TypeFaster is good for changing to different key layouts. TOTD isn't.
Thanks for that, it's great.
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Ripster: Does the Evoluent mouse help significantly in terms of relieving the pain? I have to do something about my pain. Very often, I can have a solid grip on anything from my right hand. If I try, my hand will shake. It's that bad. Unfortunately, I cannot stop using computers since I make a living using them.
Have you tried a trackball?
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Have you tried a trackball?
No, I have not mainly because I like the wheel for scrolling, although I did consider it at some point. I have ordered an Evoluent mouse. I will see if it helps once I receive it.
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Have you tried a trackball?
What's a good and cheap one?
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imo I say start with a Trackman (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/mice_pointers/trackballs/devices/166&cl=US,EN), then move onto the Grand-daddy (http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-D67-00001-Trackball-Optical-Mouse/dp/B00005853X) (biased opinion).
the good thing about learning a Logitech Marble is that there's the amazing Kesington Expert that is an index finger driven trackball, which is amazing.
edit: amazing amazing amazing amazing amazing amazing im drunk
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not to get off the subject of dvorak, but...ill take the opportunity to say that ive owned my ms trackball linked above since 2000. its the best mouse ive ever owned. very comfortable. very well made. im sad to hear they dont make them anymore...
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I've held back from learning an alternative layout. I just don't see how you can be comfortable holding two layouts in your brain. Remembering where the letters are should be OK. But you need to learn whole words to type fast. The concept of having to learn two different patterns for every common word just scares me tbh.
I would have thought it's no different to being able to both write and type as you're making different movements for the same words for those methods.
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What's a good and cheap one?
Logitech Trackman Wheel. (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/mice_pointers/trackballs/devices/166&cl=US,EN)
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after studying an intense amount of the literal meaning of random. i am quite certain qwerty will be the english language until you can type with your mind lol
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to the op: switch from buckling springs to brown cherries and 50% of your pain will go away.
if you are learning to touch type for the first time - then i highly recommend colemak or dvorak instead of qwerty.
i am struggling to unlearn qwerty. although i have learned the dvorak map and know where the keys are, i am struggling to unlearn qwerty. when i try dvorak, my fingers start doing qwerty in the middle of a paragraph and it gets too frustrating.
between colemak vs dvorak, here's brief advantages:
dvorak: (1) comes installed already in vista. you just need to make a brief change at the language bar. (2) it is accepted as a standard in the US. colemak has neither of these but you can download colemak free and easily install to your pc. (3) from my experience, dvorak is indeed very easy and fast to learn. qwerty & colemak take a long time to learn and master. don't ask me why. ymmv.
colemak's advantages: windows & pc shortcuts were designed with qwerty in mind. colemak took these into consideration so the zxcv buttons are exactly where qwerty has them
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to the op: switch from buckling springs to brown cherries and 50% of your pain will go away.
if you are learning to touch type for the first time - then i highly recommend colemak or dvorak instead of qwerty.
i am struggling to unlearn qwerty. although i have learned the dvorak map and know where the keys are, i am struggling to unlearn qwerty. when i try dvorak, my fingers start doing qwerty in the middle of a paragraph and it gets too frustrating.
between colemak vs dvorak, here's brief advantages:
dvorak: (1) comes installed already in vista. you just need to make a brief change at the language bar. (2) it is accepted as a standard in the US. colemak has neither of these but you can download colemak free and easily install to your pc. (3) from my experience, dvorak is indeed very easy and fast to learn. qwerty & colemak take a long time to learn and master. don't ask me why. ymmv.
colemak's advantages: windows & pc shortcuts were designed with qwerty in mind. colemak took these into consideration so the zxcv buttons are exactly where qwerty has them
Thanks for your reply.
I'm sticking with Dvorak for now, mainly because the pain in my fingers has reduced since I've started using it a couple days ago.
My model M is new, so that's not the cause of the pain.
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If by cheap you mean less than $30 the Logitech Marble Mouse is $24. (http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Optical-Marble-Mouse-USB/dp/B00005T406/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1246681145&sr=1-5)
That's what I use, since I use my left hand for mousing. I've found it very comfortable. Having to click with my thumb is very nice. I've read that mouse usage is major culprit of RSI.
I'm a Dvorak typist too. Yeah, learning it has been a bit frustrating, first week more so. But now that I've got the hang of it, it feels very good. For improved comfort, among other things, I've also shifted letters under the right hand a column to the right, both to enlarge space between hands, and to have backspace and return nearer. As for the shortcuts, there are alternatives to ZXCV involving Insert and Delete: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut,_copy,_and_paste
I also use a Vi like editor.
I don't know whether trackball or Dvorak or Vi or my customized layout saved my day, or all of them, but I don't feel aching hands anymore.
Don't give up: a keyboard layout needs time to really "click in". You start hitting a letter at a time, then you start hitting "combos" and short words. I think it's an investment for the rest of you life. Use typing lessons to speed up learning.
Cheers.
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N-N-N-NECRO
I was on Dvorak for 10mins then found out about Colemak, wish it was sooner. Keeps ZXCVB and A too, by the way (still find myself trying to use S and N though) I am on (checks) day 7 of Colemak and am at 50wpm already. Typing of the Dead is fun but not really conducive to getting better for me... good for proving my results, but the pressure is too high.
Colemak
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I have tried dvorak and colemak, I find that the carpalx qgmlwb layout is the best. Good hand alternation and no keys put in awkward places.
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The whole issue with Dvorak, the vast majority of the time, boils down to one thing. Human beings are LAZY. Yes. I said it. To switch from any one thing that one knows, (however inferior it may be) to something one doesn't know, is hard. It takes work, more work than the average joe is prepared for. That's where all this "I tried Dvorak, but it wasn't my thing." comes from. It should read, "I tried Dvorak, but was too lazy to practice, and too uncommitted to stop using qwerty while I trained."
I deliberately quit qwerty a couple of months ago, and haven't looked back. It's weird. I practiced every day for about 4 weeks. Literally, one day, about 3.5 weeks in, I went to start practice, and the pauses and mental blocks were gone. Gone. It was like a switch clicked on in my head and my brain threw out qwerty and replaced it. It felt like I'd been typing Dvorak my entire life.
So stick with it. Be patient. The discomfort, the pauses between keystrokes, the mind-blanks, they all will pass with time and practice. Then you'll wonder how on earth you ever put up with that catastrophic mass of chaos that is qwerty. You'll see your friends and family typing qwerty, and it'll look so awkward and contorted, you'll wonder how anyone could type like that at all. And your hands will dance in comfort over the keyboard with a level of ease and relaxation qwerty never could have afforded them.
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Great post Justin. I switched to Dvorak 3 years ago and never looked back.
Once you are past the initial week or so it is generally smooth sailing from there.
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Much as that would be my approach too, the other half uses this PC, and although she rarely types much, she does expect a "normal" (QWERTY) keyboard. She put's up with the "noisy" keys, but that would just be asking for trouble. I may just get/make a PS/2 switch.
Personally, I want my IBM with Blank caps in COLEMAK. Just switch it, and learn it. No going back. But, as those of you out there with Significant Others will know, it's just not worth the earache that you get.
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I don't know how sensible it is to be using a layout that isn't "standard" in the computing industry. If you have sore wrists from typing, I personally found that simply typing more slowly and less aggressively helped relieve pain in the Carpal Tunnels. I also bought a Logitech Trackball around the same time. After I recovered I didn't need it again, but they are very good. The larger the ball,the more precise you can be. This one has a scroll-wheel too:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/mice_pointers/trackballs/devices/189&cl=us,en
I once owned the Logitech Cordless Trackman FX, which had the most brilliant ergonomics; sadly it was lost in transit during a warranty exchange :(. I wish I could get a NOS model from somewhere.
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Much as that would be my approach too, the other half uses this PC, and although she rarely types much, she does expect a "normal" (QWERTY) keyboard. She put's up with the "noisy" keys, but that would just be asking for trouble. I may just get/make a PS/2 switch.
Keyboard layout is a user level preference both on Windows and Linux. You can just configure the Colemak layout for you and the Qwerty for her, can't you? Or do both of you share the same user? Anyway you could easily switch layout on the fly by means of a key shortcut.
Unfortunately, login's layout is a system wide preference, and it would be advisable leaving it Qwerty.
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Personally, I don't care what the "standard" is, when the standard is awful. Qwerty isn't just slightly worse. It's insane. Scientifically, it's about as bad as could possibly be conceived if you set out to create a layout that was as slow and miserable to type on as is physically possible. It's oh-my-gosh-what-the-bloody-hell-were they-thinking bad. The research is there, but once again, most people will never read it.
I realize that due to critical mass, the world is unlikely to ever change, and that's very sad, but fine. I just refuse to use something that's grossly inferior simply because "everyone else" does. What they do is irrelevant. I'll use the best, and watch "everyone else" suffer.
Now, as for why to switch…
Yes, you can attain a higher maximum speed with Dvorak, simply due to physics. Your hands don't move a little more with qwerty. They don't move twice as much, they don't move 4 or 5, or even 10 times as much. Your hands have to move twenty times as much to type in qwerty as they do in Dvorak. That's a 2000% increase in finger strain and muscle stress. That's not opinion, hearsay, or speculation, it's hard fact, and fact that is backed by years of scientific research and concrete evidence.
Obviously, when you can type 70% of the English language without moving off of the home row, your hands are going to be much more comfortable as well, which is where the carpal tunnel and RSI reduction benefits come from.
Not everyone should necessarily switch however.
If you aren't going to touch type, don't waste your time. It isn't worth it. (duh.)
If you don't ever type more than email and website addresses, don't waste your time.
If you work in an environment where you have to constantly use computers that don't allow you to change the input settings, don't waste your time. You can change to settings to Dvorak input in about 10 seconds on most computers. (the keyboard is actually irrelevant, many of us use blank keyboards anyway)
Don't worry about having qwerty on your phone. It's true that the mind can call back qwerty seamlessly when switching to a very different keyboard or operating system. (visual surroundings trigger muscle memory selection)
I can still type qwerty full speed on my iPhone, and almost full speed on other people's computers. It's that environmental shift.
Most people can switch. If you primarily use your own computers, you can easily switch. If you type a lot, you should probably switch. If you can't truly, properly touch type, you should switch. It'll be a great opportunity to learn proper touch typing, and you didn't really know qwerty anyway.
If you're a programmer, you should at least look into alternate layouts. Dvorak is optimized for english. You might also look into Colemak or others if you primarily write C code all day.
The main point is this. Be open minded. Look into all of the layouts that are around, CHOOSE the best for YOU, and go from there. If that's qwerty, so be it. If that's Dvorak or Colemak, great. Just don't be a slave to the decisions of corporations and schools that got stuck on qwerty for financial reasons, not ergonomic ones, or any reason whatsoever that benefits you in any way. Live by choice, not by accident.
By the way, blank keys rock. They encourage you to use whatever layout you want without regard for the hardware, and are great for your touch typing skills.
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Honestly the best way to learn dvorak for me was to relabel the keycaps and then do A LOT of instant messaging/IRC. Typing tutors are fine for day one, but they quickly become boring and unnatural. You will most likely never need to type the word 'thorough' 35 times in a row.
I'm a dvorak user now, but have been looking at the QGMLWY layout. After only an hour on IRC, I could touch type (albeit really slowly). Writing longer stuff like essays doesn't give you the demand for immediacy that having a conversation does.
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Yeah, instant messaging is good for your typing abilities. I did some facebook chat when I was learning Dvorak, that really shows your progression, while improving your speed at the same time.
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I second the switch to Dvorak. Doesn't make you faster but really seemed to relieve the pain in the wrists. The only issue is getting over muscle memory for the first 2 weeks and relearning Vim.
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What I learned to type with was the old 1980s books of type-it-in BASIC programs. I type ~50wpm on two fingers, since I never got learned proper. I wonder if there's a layout optimal for two-fingered, since the movement pattern is different (F->A is a significant motion, whereas it's no motion in standard typing).
Maybe a layout with common keys in rings around "E" and "S" or similarly main ones.
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Maybe a layout with common keys in rings around "E" and "S" or similarly main ones.
colemak?
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Keyboard layout is a user level preference both on Windows and Linux. You can just configure the Colemak layout for you and the Qwerty for her, can't you? Or do both of you share the same user? Anyway you could easily switch layout on the fly by means of a key shortcut.
Unfortunately, login's layout is a system wide preference, and it would be advisable leaving it Qwerty.
Login's would both confuse and piss off Her Ladyship. When I get her a nice laptop (The current one is, well.... 1.4 Celery, 14" and badly made.. but free works for me), I can have my desktop back.
I am like Hak-Foo though, and though I use more than 2 fingers, I do not type properly, (Though I am learning... Mavis Beacon and Type Faster).
Roll on new laptop time (Frankenstien coming up... I have 2 trashed dells and a Packard Smell... wonder if I can get one working one out of that?). Then it's COLEMAK, BLack IBM's (I'm trying something different to get the case black, will let you all know if it works) and Blank keys.
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I think he is just saying IF you have a login that you share with your wife be sure to keep it qwerty
im so used to typing my password it wasnt an issue until i got GOOD at colemak because i typed it by position, didnt even think of it as a word anymore.
or use something like a number that wont change
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I think he is just saying IF you have a login that you share with your wife be sure to keep it qwerty
Exactly.
You could even leave a blank password (under Windows - at least XP - blank password are safer than weak ones since they can be used for logging in only). Come on, Her Ladyship can handle just clicking on Her avatar to log in, can't she? My barely computer literate grannies can!
Don't make up excuses for your laziness ;-)
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That's actually a good idea to use a numeric password, you could also use special symbols that are on those keys as well.
If you use a Mac, there's an option to show the input menu on the login screen, which solves these problems by allowing you to select keyboard layout directly from the login screen. I'm pretty sure this is a feature in the new Windows 7 as well.
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I've set my XP machine to use Colemak by default, but every now and again it switches to another one of the installed layouts. This is despite having no hot keys set up to swap between them. It doesn't happen often, but it throws me for a while when it does happen.
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I've set my XP machine to use Colemak by default, but every now and again it switches to another one of the installed layouts. This is despite having no hot keys set up to swap between them. It doesn't happen often, but it throws me for a while when it does happen.
Delete other active layouts from the layout selection dialog. Your choosen layout must be the only one in the list.
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If you want an on-screen keyboard picture then I found a program called Custom Desktop Logo (http://customdesktoplogo.wikidot.com/) pretty good during the day I attempted to learn Colemak (5wpm is right, I had a deadline so I gave up after three paragraphs.) - you'll need a keyboard layout picture but they should be easy to find.
Thank you for this link! :)
I put blank caps om my Filco, but it drives my girlfriend nuts...
With this programm it will be much easier, already made this for her:
(http://soulhunters-crappy-website.com/misc/ANSI-Mod-Small-Filco.png)
Btw, feel free to use or share it...
And if you'd like to get a blank and/or hi-resolution version or whatever, drop me a PM!
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you accidentally printed qwerty you meant to print colemak and get her on the train too
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Just found out this little USB device which converts a standard keyboard to Dvorak:
http://www.keyghost.com/qido/
No fiddling with your operating system settings is needed anymore ;-)
If they'll make a customizable one - since I use a customized Dvorak for Italian - I surely will buy a couple of them.
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I bet there is plenty of spare space in those to hold a few more layouts. If they added Colemak and QFMLWY (from Carpalx) I bet most people here would buy one.
Better still - user programmable.
Maybe even better - configurable by typing in a pangram (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPangram&ei=35CdSoSSK4GQjAeTyc2kAg&usg=AFQjCNGFLdP4Dd8lt8PmhMUxqlc7NnF2kA).
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I bet there is plenty of spare space in those to hold a few more layouts. If they added Colemak and QFMLWY (from Carpalx) I bet most people here would buy one.
Would you please let them know you are interested? I've done that. The more people write to them, the more likely they will offer such a customization feature.
You can find the "Contact us" button at the top of the page:
http://www.keyghost.com/qido/
Thanks :-)
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writing to them now... found and mentioned this a little bit ago but was also disappointed to see no user programmability
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Exactly.
You could even leave a blank password (under Windows - at least XP - blank password are safer than weak ones since they can be used for logging in only). Come on, Her Ladyship can handle just clicking on Her avatar to log in, can't she? My barely computer literate grannies can!
Don't make up excuses for your laziness ;-)
Nothing lazy about it. When she gets her new laptop, I get black, blank COLEMAK:clap2:.
The current laptop is just too slow for her Flash games, and the Asus 700 netbook is a ***** to type anything on (Even she says this). I just need to make enough to get her something half decent. In a recession, in this area, that's easier said than done.
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That's actually a good idea to use a numeric password, you could also use special symbols that are on those keys as well.
no!!! that's not a good idea!!!
assuming a password 8 characters in length,
numbers only = 1x10^8 passwords
numbers and symbols from that row = 2.6x10^10 passwords
upper/lower alpha, numbers, and symbols from only that row = 3.7x10^18
if you can test 5000 passwords/sec (typical john-mpi result on modern dual-core machine),
numbers only = 6 hours
numbers and symbols from that row = 60 days
upper/lower alpha, numbers, and symbols from only that row = 4500 years
removing letters from your character pool dramatically reduces the combinatorial space, and fatally reduces the security of your password. don't do it!!!
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no!!! that's not a good idea!!!
assuming a password 8 characters in length,
numbers only = 1x10^8 passwords
numbers and symbols from that row = 2.6x10^10 passwords
upper/lower alpha, numbers, and symbols from only that row = 3.7x10^18
if you can test 5000 passwords/sec (typical john-mpi result on modern dual-core machine),
numbers only = 6 hours
numbers and symbols from that row = 60 days
upper/lower alpha, numbers, and symbols from only that row = 4500 years
removing letters from your character pool dramatically reduces the combinatorial space, and fatally reduces the security of your password. don't do it!!!
while your advice is sound we were talking about the windows login screen, before they are able to have their 'customized' settings loaded.
and the windows login password is incredibly unimportant.
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no!!! that's not a good idea!!!
assuming a password 8 characters in length,
numbers only = 1x10^8 passwords
...
numbers only = 6 hours
...
removing letters from your character pool dramatically reduces the combinatorial space, and fatally reduces the security of your password. don't do it!!!
Mathematically, but... In reality this is only true if the attacker would already know the password is solely made of numbers, which he usually doesn't. For brute-force cracking they usually use a "dictionary" which contains some thousands of the most common passwords (test, qwerty, 1234, password, blah...), names (Sarah, Steve, John...), nicks (FlakMonkey, SexyGirl...), birth dates (1983, 05.06.1992...), names and nicks + birth dates (Steve1983, SexyGirl92...) or "l33t" alterations (St3v3, S3XyG1rL92...), at least to my knowledge. >.>
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I just use a Linux boot floppy that lets me set the Windows administrator password to anything I like, there's no need to crack the existing password. Oops, was that supposed to be a secret?
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I just use a Linux boot floppy that lets me set the Windows administrator password to anything I like, there's no need to crack the existing password. Oops, was that supposed to be a secret?
Of course that's the more elegant way in this scenario (actually brute forcing is nearly always the least elegant solution) but my reply wasn't specifically aimed on the Win login, but on password cracking in general. Yes, in a lot cases there are backdoors (-> see Windows) n other attack points (ie. reverse engineering -> see DVD+CSS), so even the best password and/or encryption wont save you... >:)
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while your advice is sound we were talking about the windows login screen, before they are able to have their 'customized' settings loaded.
and the windows login password is incredibly unimportant.
the windows login password protects the machine against unauthorized access over the network. on windows 9x it was unimportant.
please feel free to swing by the office, and i can introduce you to the windows guys. they will surely be interested to hear your opinion that the windows password is unimportant, considering weak XP login passwords were the attack vector for a large installation of malware that recently decimated the windows desktops here.
if you are not worried about physical attack, you should configure windows to permit local logins without prompting for a password. and still set a strong password on the account.
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i thought we were talking about a computer shared by the husband and wife at home but i guess your larger scale application is true as well
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if it's not connected to the internet, sure, knock yourself out.
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I may be fated to be the Master of The Thread Dredge on this forum, but this topic is too near and dear to my heart to pass up.
I've worked with computer keyboards since 1985 - all of which were based on the QWERTY layout - and in all that time - whether it be as a coder, data entry operator, technician, technical writer, recreational writer, IRC/Usenet/listserv/forum **** or amateur researcher - never, ever, learned to touch type.
I hunted and pecked, using all of my fingers - whichever happened to be closest to the keys I required.
I tried in the early years, armed with a copy of TypeQuick, to learn to touch-type but gave it up as a bad joke.
So for many years and many millions of characters, I plodded my way 'round the QWERTY board. Rather odd, considering the amount of time I spent on a computer and my love of writing.
Last year, at the ripe old age of 46, I decided I would learn to touch type.
However, I was well aware of the fact that QWERTY was designed to deliberately slow typists down to prevent extremely early typewriters from jamming and that other, more efficient, layouts such as Dvorak existed and that it was a trivial matter to change your computer to respond in those layouts.
I therefore decided that if I was going to learn to touch type, I would do so on a layout that did not overly abuse my hands and elected to use the Dvorak layout.
I at first was going to use it at home and the QWERTY layout at work - that lasted less than a week before I changed the machine at work to Dvorak.
My home machine I went all out - changed over the key caps on my keyboard as well as set the system input to US Dvorak. My work machine, that may get borrowed by a fellow technician, I left the key caps as they were.
This, I found, was a brilliant help - at home I would "cheat" and look at the keys, at work I had no choice but look at the screen or I'd get horribly confused.
As I said, I type a lot - both at work and at home - so I got a lot of practice. It did not take long before I was proficient at the Dvorak layout and getting faster.
I was aided by a great site that has a Dvorak keyboard tutor - which teaches you with real words rather than the ASFDFA nonsense that QWERTY trainers give for the home keys. I also just sat and typed "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" over and over until I'd memorised where the keys were.
And I typed everything I had to in Dvorak - total immersion at home and at work.
I have not become super fast - though I am faster than I was when I had to keep looking between keyboard and screen - but my typing is less effort than before and it flows. I keep my eyes on the screen and can see what I've typed and correct more quickly than I could before (I still try to type faster than my normal speed and hit wrong keys, but I'm getting more accurate).
I'm a strong advocate of doing whatever you can to minimise strain and fatigue at work and at play and so therefore I'm a hearty proponent of the Dvorak layout or anything else more efficient than QWERTY.
The bit I really liked is that my change to Dvorak cost me precisely nothing but time - no fancy new keyboard required, just change a setting in the OS and away you go.
OK, I did later get a "specialised" keyboard - and bought a second out of my own pocket to use at work - but that was because I wanted a compact keyboard so my mouse (trackball at home) would be closer to my hands when typing, so it had nothing to do with the shift to Dvorak.
Recently, I used keytweak to remap the number keys - which US Dvorak has in numeric order - into Dvorak's original layout of 7531902468, as it puts punctuation I use frequently - !()@ - in the middle of the board where they are easily accessed by my strongest fingers - well, it does on a standard computer keyboard, Dvorak typewriters had significantly different punctuation.
I'm getting used to it, now.
I'm also teaching my sons the Dvorak layout right from the outset. It's a trivial matter to set most machines to Dvorak (and good manners to set it back after you're done) so I don't see them being disadvantaged by it.
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It's interesting that you changed your numbers. In my opinion the worst symbols are %^ and I don't use them very often anyway.
Your switch seems pretty successful. I'd consider mine to be less so. I guess your starting point really makes a difference. If you don't know how to touch type from the beginning, you benefit from an alternative layout a lot more.
Have your QWERTY skills improved also? If not, you can probably reteach it to yourself pretty quickly -- I have found it useful for applications, games, and other computers that are simply not friendly to other layouts.
Teaching it to your sons will probably be a success. It's like teaching them with a blank keyboard, since looking down will be no help. Just hope that that doesn't confuse them ;).
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Nice, ripster.
It reminds me of a topic way-back-when (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=4591). It was from back when the forum had a slightly more "writer" angle (the "hack" in "Geekhack").
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I did teach my son to write clearly using paragraphs with a topic sentence and clear conclusion though.
Good show. I taught Freshman Composition for 2.5 years. Alas, many kids come to university without knowing how to construct a paragraph, or how to argue from a thesis.
Some geekhackers, too! :frusty:
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Viett, the starting point did certainly help. When it comes to resting fingers on home keys, looking at the screen and going for it, the muscle memory is pure Dvorak.
For QWERTY, I still have to look at the board and hunt and peck (which is the correct way to use QWERTY - the way Dr Sholes designed it to be used when he went all out to make it harder to type quickly), I look up to the screen occasionally to check. The thing I have to fight is my impulse to put my fingers on the home keys - I do that and I type gibberish - Dvorak fingering on a QWERTY board.
Thankfully, it's rare that I have to use someone else's machine - rare enough that I don't bother switching the input layout.
My boys have QWERTY machines at school - until such time as I teach them how to change the language settings to Dvorak and back. I have no desire for them to ever learn how to touch type on QWERTY for the same reason I wouldn't teach them to use the back of an axe to bash in nails - it was never designed with that purpose in mind and is downright dangerous.
When Remington and Scholes devised their typewriter, there was no such thing as touch typing or speed typing. Typewriters' sole function was print-quality lettering for the average person and Scholes was happy if it enabled you to bang out 20-30 words per minute. It was designed for people to hammer at with two fingers - and his layout deliberately split common digraphs to force the typist to hurdle rows and rove all over the board.
Later touch typing demonstrated the efficacy of his design in that regard - when assigning home keys and what fingers strike which keys, it becomes apparent that common digraphs have to be typed using the same finger, often hurdling the "home row" to do so, common letters are assigned to the bottom row and/or to weak fingers, most words are written with the left hand only.
QWERTY is the axe, writing is the nails, Dvorak is a hammer -as is ARENSITO and a number of other purpose made layouts designed to make better use of the hands.
If my boys only ever pound two fingered on a QWERTY board and type fluidly on Dvorak, I will be well pleased - I'm not going to set them on the path to RSI by expecting them to touch type on a layout that was specifically designed to make that as difficult, frustrating and physically stressful as possible.
Ripster, good on you for teaching your kids proper use of paragraphs - a skill so few know, these days.
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I'm going to have to strongly disagree with your stance on QWERTY. The physical positions of your fingers on the keyboard is the same no matter your layout, assuming you're not using one of these crazy finger layouts (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=8280).
Touch typing was created for QWERTY. Just because QWERTY may be a bit more difficult to type (be careful, there is NO evidence that suggests that QWERTY is any slower than any alternative), does not mean that it cannot be touch typed effectively.
I would strongly encourage you to touch type in QWERTY. I have a feeling a lot of your typing success can be attributed more to the method of touch typing than the Dvorak layout.
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Not a lot wrong with the physical position of the fingers on the keyboard, it's the layout of the letters at fault with QWERTY.
Sholes, working for Remington, designed a machine to create print-quality lettering that could be marketed. His original design jammed terribly and he commissioned a study on the most commonly used letters in the English language and used that study to deliberately scatter those letters across the board. His resultant layout was slightly modified by Remington - they moved the R to the top row so that their salesdroids could type "typewriter" quickly when demonstrating it.
Later those who used the machines frequently came up with the hand positioning (choosing which row and keys were "home") and finger assignments (diagonally left and up, right and down from the home keys rather than the other way) of touch typing.
What Dvorak and others did was to look the way touch typists work - specifically at the waste movement inherent in the layout of the letters on the keys, and devised other layouts that were more efficient - placing more common digraphs in such a way as to be typed efficiently with minimal stretching or hurdling.
QWERTY was never initially designed for touch typing - quite the opposite, the last thing Sholes wanted was for people to type quickly on his machine and jam the type bars. Touch typing is what people came up with to try to type faster - by which stage QWERTY had become the de facto standard. If the DHIATENSOR keyboard had been more commercially successful, they would have been inventing touch typing on that layout.
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and by moving the common digraphs further apart it also slows down the typing - especially if both letters are on the same half of the board - and therefore most likely used by the same hand.
Slowing down the typing not only stops adjacent bars from binding, it gives the bars time to return to rest - and thus get out of the way of the next.
That is no longer necessary (in fact, it was no longer necessary within Sholes' lifetime as the quality of machines improved - but that did not prompt him to change the layout to one that made more sense) and QWERTY users are stuck with a large number of combinations of letters that require hurdling over the home keys or using the same finger to hit successive letters or both - for example "ce" requires the left middle finger to reach down to the bottom row then hurdle the home row to the top row.
On Dvorak, that same digraph is a single reach one row up with one finger and a home key with another finger (on the other hand, even) - equates to pressing "ID" on a QWERTY board.
Which can you touch type fastest on a QWERTY board: "CE" (left middle down then hurdle home key (D) to top row) or "ID" (Right middle up then press left middle)? Try typing both those as fast as possible and see which you can do faster.
The combination "kjd" is utter nonsense on the QWERTY board, but it is very easy and quick to type - all home letters, no fingers need to move anywhere but straight down on their respective caps. Right middle then index, rapidly followed by left middle.
On the Dvorak layout, those three keys correspond to the letters "t", "h" and "e" so that bit of easy-to-type "nonsense" on the QWERTY board is one of the most common words in the English language if the keys are arranged in the Dvorak layout.
Each of those three letters require a reach on the QWERTY layout.
"Minimum": none of the keys are on QWERTY's home row, index finger has to switch between m and n on the bottom row as well as hurdle the home row to reach u on the top.
On Dvorak, the only letter not on the home row is "M" - and the index finger can hover on it while typing that word - just as the left index can hover over the "I" in readiness for the second one before returning to its home over the "U".
Also, on the QWERTY board, "minimum" is typed solely with the right hand. On Dvorak it is spread between the hands.
Dvorak and others based their designs on watching touch typists at work then striving to minimise muscle movements for comfort and efficiency.
Dvorak and his brother in law studied slow motion footage of typists, the common letters of the English language and the physiology of the hand and based their design on fairly sound ideas such as it being faster and easier if you don't have to move your fingers from the home row.
Given that QWERTY only has one vowel on the home row, typing most words entails taking your fingers from the home row - automatically slowing you down and increasing fatigue.
Other factors come into it - alternating hands, progression from outer to inner fingers, reaching up a row easier and faster than curling down a row and so on.
It's been calculated that a QWERTY typist's fingers move around twenty times further than that of a Dvorak typist's to type the same text - I'm sure I can walk a mile in less time than I can walk 20.
Without taking the time or effort to reach away from my 8 home keys, I can type nearly 1500 words. On the QWERTY board the same keys give less than 160 words. That's around 1340 words where a QWERTY typist has to reach for keys while I do not.
If I am typing those words at 35wpm and not moving my fingers from the home key and a QWERTY typist is typing the same words, moving all about over the board at the same wpm, then obviously their fingers are moving physically faster than mine. If they are making 70 to 100 wpm, then they are moving their fingers a lot faster than I am.
Now, how fast would those typists be if they didn't move their fingers from the home keys at all? How fast would they be if instead of reaching, they just pressed as fast as they could - what would their characters-per-minute rate get up to?
The problem with saying "people who have retrained in Dvorak aren't much faster than they were with QWERTY" is that it's just based on characters per minute, they are not showing any metric on how fast they are actually moving their fingers whilst doing it.
While their typing speed may be the same or a trifle faster, they will be actually moving their fingers less distance and, therefore, not as fast as they had to do so before to type the same common words in the same amount of time.
Now, there are a variety of factors in that:
One, how fast can the person process the stuff they want/need to type? If they lose the plot trying to formulate something faster than 100 words a minute, that is going to limit their typing speed no matter what layout they are using.
Also, if you type 120 per minute on QWERTY and move to Dvorak, are you really going to go all out to increase your speed to 200wpm or even 150wpm if you can type 125-130wpm with less effort than it previously took you to type 120?
You might have the potential to type like a demon on Dvorak but in all honesty, if you can match or slightly better your speed and decrease your effort by a significant amount in the process, you're not going to bother trying to exceed your typing speed by fantastic amounts.
You might be able to run the mile in under four minutes but if your job only requires you to do it in half an hour, you'll do it in 25 minutes just to look good without overdoing it.
Unless there's some incentive to crank up the fingers to the same blinding speed as before, most people are not going to bother, they will do just enough to meet the requirements of their task.
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I'll try to take a hint from Ripster and keep my response organized.
There are two questions about alternative layouts that it is impossible, factually, to address: how much do they improve comfort and how much faster do they make you type. Neither of these questions can be answered, and they are completely debatable. For example, I personally believe that alternative layouts provide a negligible increase in "comfort" and speed. But this is just my opinion -- no studies exist to prove that either of these things are actually improved by alternative layouts.
For example:
Which can you touch type fastest on a QWERTY board: "CE" (left middle down then hurdle home key (D) to top row) or "ID" (Right middle up then press left middle)? Try typing both those as fast as possible and see which you can do faster.
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Also, on the QWERTY board, "minimum" is typed solely with the right hand. On Dvorak it is spread between the hands.
How does this affect average typing speed? When you move keys around, you make other key combinations harder to type. Secondly, you cannot convert ease of typing (distance traveled) into a theoretical increase in typing speed.
The only thing you can state as fact with alternative layouts is that it takes less "effort". And when I say less "effort," I mean less distance traveled for your fingers. But this does not mean that it is more enjoyable to type.
Onto my opinion..
As you said, QWERTY takes vastly more finger distance to type things than an alternative layout. So why do I think that Dvorak doesn't significantly improve "comfort" (how enjoyable it is to type the layout)?
For one, I have touch typed both layouts for about the same time (~2 years each, broken QWERTY before that), and I don't think Dvorak is significantly more comfortable. I have even typed Dvorak more than I've typed QWERTY in these two years.
I sometimes prefer QWERTY. Sometimes it just flows nicer. Dvorak is extremely bottom-row oriented, and some of the easiest keys (WE) are symbols on Dvorak (,.). "QU" words are awkward to type at high speeds. The "L" is in one of the worst places possible. Also, the ZXCV cluster are gone in Dvorak and the typist has to either resort to two-handed shortcuts,
or shift/control + insert.
My personal experience tells me that "comfort" and "effort," as I defined above, are not the same thing.
To conclude, a rather bold statement:
No one can prove that alternative layouts are faster or improve comfort. Alternative layouts take less physical effort to type, because finger travel is lower.
And if you want my opinion, alternative layouts could be vastly less effective at increasing speed and typing comfort than learning touch typing alone. I would not be surprised if most of what you're experiencing as an increase in comfort is just a result of learning to touch type.
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My personal experience tells me that "comfort" and "effort," as I defined above, are not the same thing.
Fair enough comment.
And if you want my opinion, alternative layouts could be vastly less effective at increasing speed and typing comfort than learning touch typing alone. I would not be surprised if most of what you're experiencing as an increase in comfort is just a result of learning to touch type.
You may well be correct - I do not have your experience in touch typing QWERTY to make a comparison.
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To conclude, a rather bold statement:
No one can prove that alternative layouts are faster or improve comfort. Alternative layouts take less physical effort to type, because finger travel is lower.
Well that isn't a real conclusion, because you've stopped short of saying how to proceed. You can't prove those things? So you're just going to avoid making a choice?
Sit or get off the pot!
I've been a Qwerty user for decades. But only last year did I learn to touch type. First Qwerty, then Colemak. I prefer Colemak, and that's what I use now. There are hardware-based Colemak keyboards available now, so when I need one for work purposes that eliminates any possible obstacle.
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Well that isn't a real conclusion, because you've stopped short of saying how to proceed. You can't prove those things? So you're just going to avoid making a choice?
I have my opinions, but it would be hypocritical to think they're the truth. Is Dvorak a bit more comfortable? I think so. Is Colemak even better? I think it is. But I'm really bothered by the all the fancy number analyzers thrown around, because they really don't tell you how much better other layouts are quantitatively. All those percents and they can't tell you how much better an alternative layout really is.
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Yes it depends on the person, and the text being typed affects the stats. I just think Qwerty doesn't have a leg to stand on. The fact that well over 50% of typed characters are done on the top row is a farce. Just swapping the top two rows of letters around would improve it enormously!
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'...no one can prove...' is a ridiculous statement unless you're into logical positivism (in which case no one can prove anything at all - and no one has proven logical positivism to be worth anything, hehe!); I think you meant to say '...no one has proved...' instead?
I used to think that the QWERTY's placement of the letter 'e' was completely horrid, but I'm not so sure anymore. While typing courses do teach us about the home row, I have a feeling that in real-life typing the long middle fingers tend upwards toward the upper row which makes the 'e' more of a home-row-ish glyph after all! So maybe that particular bit isn't so awful as I thought. There's still plenty of criticisms to make against QWERTY of course...
Nowadays, I wouldn't teach kids Dvorak but Colemak but then again I'm biased since I use and love Colemak a lot. It's slightly harder to implement since it's not included in Windows nor Apple OS yet, but I think that'll change eventually since it's on the rise and has been increasing steadily (if a bit slowly in the start) since 2006. I have a good feeling about it. At any rate, there are plenty of methods you can remap by and some of them are completely portable and very powerful.
Users of all layouts can make minor changes to the key setup without changing layout per se! Improvements in wrist angle and hand separation are quite easily achieved at the mere cost of a few of the lesser used punctuation placements, without changing the fingering for anything important! I use a 'Wide' mod right now, with left hand wrist angle improvement (since I have an ISO keyboard - with their key placements it's particularly extra to do some nifty tricks). Highly recommended.
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There are hardware-based Colemak keyboards available now...
Yep. I still recommend a Unicomp (or whatever customizeable board suits your typing fancy) though, even if that means you have to pop off and move around a few keys. It's really easy to do and I'd think it beats using a commercial hardware Colemak board that's in reality a membrane board that Hooleon has done exactly the same thing to! :)
The only problem with that is the homing bumps. I don't need a new bump on the left hand since the F bump is still in a homeable position, and on the right hand I got a black unmarked key with a bump in the index finger's home position. (I changed the whole UNEI arrow block to black for style points while I was at it - at some point I'll post an image.)
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The situation I was thinking of was tightly controlled setups where a company won't allow even minor software changes, for security purposes ("rules are rules", they will say.) A keyboard with hardware based alternative layout gets around that problem.
Some places will forbid using your own keyboard too. Rules are often considered to be more important than common sense. Sadly there is no hardware solution to stupidity.
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Sadly there is no hardware solution to stupidity.
There is...
Time for a LART party!
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My work won't issue me with a non-standard keyboard unless I get a medical cert from a doctor but they have nothing against me buying and supplying my own (which I did as I wanted a compact board so I could move the mouse closer) - they just put it down to me being weird (all those years of building up that reputation paid off...).
So I use a compact "Rock" board at work identical to the one I use at home. When I can afford it, I'll buy another Trackman Wheel and leave that at work, too. And another i-rocks number pad.
I found the backspace key (which I use a lot as I often miss the home keys if I'm not looking when returning my hands to the board - the scratches I made on U and H are nowhere near as easy to feel as the bumps on the F and J keys were...) too hard to reach quickly but the keyboard had a blank key to the left of the space that I keytweaked into a backspace - reminiscent of those boards with the split spacebar that could be set to turn one of the spaces into a backspace.
Then I decided to put shift under the control of my right thumb as I was using left shift exclusively - too easy to accidentally hit Z instead of right shift, so I wasn't using it.
So I keytweaked the right alt into a shift and prised off the shift keys so I wouldn't touch them. Then I shortened the space bar and extended the new shift key to the left to make it easier to reach.
By now, it's not only my workmates who know I'm weird...
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Yes it depends on the person, and the text being typed affects the stats. I just think Qwerty doesn't have a leg to stand on. The fact that well over 50% of typed characters are done on the top row is a farce. Just swapping the top two rows of letters around would improve it enormously!
Well, one can get too stuck up on a purely geometrical definition of home row. I think the virtual home row in QWERTY is a straggling line that meanders in and out of the top row. Also: it is not a pessimal layout by any means -- things could have been much much worse.
I am also given pause from being too anti-QWERTY from the fact that QWERTY typists routinely pwn me in typing tests, and they don't seem to be doing so from hospital beds either.
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That only shows the feasibility of typing fast and without developing RSI on a QWERTY board - not the likelihood of it (which as mentioned is hard to measure).
Considering the pool of QWERTY typists who have had more than ten years of practice, I don't think the improved layouts are doing badly at all! But again, really hard to measure reliably since most Colemak typists are bound to be typing enthusiasts anyway.
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I found the backspace key (which I use a lot as I often miss the home keys if I'm not looking when returning my hands to the board - the scratches I made on U and H are nowhere near as easy to feel as the bumps on the F and J keys were...) too hard to reach quickly but the keyboard had a blank key to the left of the space that I keytweaked into a backspace - reminiscent of those boards with the split spacebar that could be set to turn one of the spaces into a backspace.
I've just stolen the idea of remapping the caplock key to backspace from the colemak layout into my dvorak layout. It's feels like an improvement already.
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I've just stolen the idea of remapping the caplock key to backspace from the colemak layout into my dvorak layout. It's feels like an improvement already.
Hmmmmm, great plan. I can't recall the last time I needed to use the caps lock, but I can think of a number of other keys that are hard/inconvenient to reach that I do use frequently and could be happily swapped over.
Since I've got that convenient odd-ball key next to the space to be my backspace, I guess I'll have to think of a different key to map onto the caps lock key. Ctrl is one that springs to mind - I certainly use that often enough and it's not the easiest key to reach on my compact keyboard...
Thanks for the idea.
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Just wanted to get a word out - I'm a long term Colemak user and if anybody is looking for mechanical keyboard that can be set to Colemak layout - check out Avant Stellar and Avant Prime from CVT. They are fully programmable, and all keys can be re-mapped - that setting is stored on the keyboard controller and is retained even if you switch PCs.
I've got both Avant Stellar and Avant Prime, and reprogrammed the Stellar to Colemak for the time I'm using somebody else's PC and don't want to mess with the layout.
This keyboards uses white clicky Alps and are successors of Northgate Omni. As a matter of fact, most parts, except for controller, are identical - I swapped quite a few parts (switches, foot pegs, retainers, stabilizers) from an old Northgate keyboard to Avants to keep them going, as I got them used and they needed some care.
Now, as far as downsides to hardware keyboard mapping - if you ever have to type in foreign language, e.g. switch layout in windows, it will mess you up, as windows expects QWERTY and so mapping will be totally off. That's why I only use keyboard with hardware mapping when I go work on servers and other people PCs.
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I've just stolen the idea of remapping the caplock key to backspace from the colemak layout into my dvorak layout. It's feels like an improvement already.
The standard (US board) backspace location is ideal -- far enough away that one has an incentive not to depend on it, and wide enough that in moments of mad panic, a scattershot aim still gets you there.
Resist making backspacing too easy. Good writers like Hemingway did without the backspace key. Great writers like Mark Twain rewired it to administer an electric shock that doubled in intensity on every successive use.
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Resist making backspacing too easy.
I've had this thought myself. However, I still think CapsLock as Backspace is a vast improvement, even once you've exceeded 98% accuracy.
Maybe it's best to keep a normal backspace while you are learning a new layout?
Or you could just use this (http://www.lifehackingmovie.com/2009/05/18/typewriter-minimal-text-editor-freeware/).
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The standard (US board) backspace location is ideal -- far enough away that one has an incentive not to depend on it, and wide enough that in moments of mad panic, a scattershot aim still gets you there.
Resist making backspacing too easy. Good writers like Hemingway did without the backspace key. Great writers like Mark Twain rewired it to administer an electric shock that doubled in intensity on every successive use.
I do see the logic and merit in that - and would be the first to admit that ever since I first got access to a word processor (WordStar v1.0) I've become reliant not only on the backspace but the ability to go up and insert things I've forgotten (or even completely revise what I've written.)
I am getting more accurate with my typing and don't have to use the backspace to correct mistyped keys as frequently as I used to.
Most frequent use I now have for the backspace (aside from having to quickly revise) is due to keys not registering properly and having to backspace to where the letter was missed and retype - something I pick up faster now that I can touch type as I can instantly see that I've just typed "tht" despite definitely having pressed the "a" key. so it's a quick "backspace, a, t" to correct the word.
I dare say that my typing will improve immensely when I get a decent keyboard with tactile switches that will let me feel when I've actuated the key. Then maybe my use of the backspace will decrease again.
Would still prefer it closer than sequestered away near the top right corner of the board. On my compact board, the actual key is standard-sized and it's right next to the "Home" key - a scattershot aim usually had the result of, rather than deleting the preceding character as desired, sending the cursor back to the beginning of the line - with "humorous" results. Actually not that funny when you're trying to work fast...
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Most frequent use I now have for the backspace (aside from having to quickly revise) is due to keys not registering properly
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On my compact board, the actual key is standard-sized and it's right next to the "Home" key - a scattershot aim usually had the result of, rather than deleting the preceding character as desired, sending the cursor back to the beginning of the line
Those are two faults affecting my Cherry ML4100 boards (keys can bind, Home is next to Backspace.)
Something had to change:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6800&d=1262131194)
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Rajagra, if you swapped the Ctrl and Fn keys on the bottom left corner, you'd have the same layout of those keys that I do. That made reaching the Ctrl key quite difficult, curling my finger under and frequently missing it, so I just swapped it with the caps-lock key.
Where you have your backspace, I now have Ctrl - will be a lot easier as I use Ctrl a lot and it's now right next to a home key.
Just did some more tweaking and I'm now getting used to using right thumb for backspace, left for shift - for the very logical reason that I remove my right hand from the keyboard a lot to use the mouse - so having to move my left hand away from the keys every time I need to shift-click something using the one shift key I had on the right of the board, was a rather silly way to do it.
So I remapped the keys so that my previously remapped shift and backspace keys are swapped. Now I don't have to move my left hand to shift-click while using the mouse. Can Ctrl-click a lot easier now, too.
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I was having lots of pain from QWERTY so I want to switch for comfort.
Try typing less. I use macros and text expansion software to do some of the work for me. Check out texter (http://lifehacker.com/238306/lifehacker-code-texter-windows) and autohotkey. (http://www.autohotkey.com/)
I'm saving about a third of my keying this way.
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After 5 days of having the backspace at the usual capslock position, it's as if it was always there. Speeds up my pitiful typing - Highly recommended.
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I'm getting used to having the ctrl there - a lot easier for copy and paste (which we do a lot of at work).
Can understand what you mean, hoggy, within a few days of moving the backspace under my thumb it was automatic to hit it if I made a mistake.
Now getting used to the fact that I swapped my remapped shift and backspace over.
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After 5 days of having the backspace at the usual capslock position, it's as if it was always there. Speeds up my pitiful typing - Highly recommended.
Well, I tried it, since I don't really need the CapsLock position for Control. (After some time with Mac OS X and its Cmd key, I have come to appreciate putting Control immediately left of the space bar.)
However, rapidly ran against a snag: Backspace on the CapsLock position doesn't key-repeat, at least on Ubuntu. When I do delete something, it is usually a swath of contiguous characters, and having to press Backspace separately for each of them is painful.
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Well, I tried it, since I don't really need the CapsLock position for Control. (After some time with Mac OS X and its Cmd key, I have come to appreciate putting Control immediately left of the space bar.)
However, rapidly ran against a snag: Backspace on the CapsLock position doesn't key-repeat, at least on Ubuntu. When I do delete something, it is usually a swath of contiguous characters, and having to press Backspace separately for each of them is painful.
xset r 66
should do the trick.
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I'm getting used to having the ctrl there - a lot easier for copy and paste (which we do a lot of at work).
I've done pretty much that with my 'extend' CapsLock key mappings: Hitting Caps+Z sends a System 'Undo' for instance. Saves the left hand a lot of jumping and twisting down to the bottom left corner, which in my opinion more than makes up for the little finger's extra work as an allround magic key extend "caster"!
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The original location of my Ctrl key is such that it was hard to hit because I was shooting blind for it - obscured by my left hand and nestled between a Fn key and the "Windows" key. Now, it's a quick reach to the side from a home key and I've got it.
Really great improvement when half your day is spent copying the contents of emailed requests into the fields of the job tracking program...
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I see; that Ctrl key does look a bit lodged-in there.
What I'd try would be the 'A-Frame' ergonomic mod. Then you'd get a better left wrist angle and the Ctrl key would be back in business as far as I can see - at the cost of a little more left pinky work (mine's plenty strong enough but YMMV) and moving the question mark (an acceptable price in my opinion but a bit confusing the first couple of days).
As for Backspace, I have that on the home position of my right pinky. I never mi**** it there, and I never mi**** the Caps key so it's a very safe mapping. Del sits one row up so that's quite easy to use too.
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What is an "A-frame ergonomic mod"?
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What is an "A-frame ergonomic mod"?
I'd imagine it's bending a keyboard into unnatural positions.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8160&stc=1&d=1267571233)
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When butchering the above image to match my work machine's keyboard, I noticed that my keyboard had one more key to the left of the space on the bottom row than the illustration: Fn, Ctrl, Win, Alt, Numlock and the blank key. That means not only is the Ctrl jammed between two keys (one of which gives disastrous results if accidentally pressed) the bloody thing is narrower than all the other keys.
Attached is the butchered image showing the layout of my board - complete with Numlock and shift keys prised off (and one of those shifts relocated) and appropriately resized keys in the lower left of the board.
Thankfully no one uses my machine but me, generally.
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I'd imagine it's bending a keyboard into unnatural positions.
OK, doing that as a mod could be interesting - a logistical nightmare unless you were making your own pcbs.
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What is an "A-frame ergonomic mod"?
Sorry for not being more specific.
But googling 'a-frame ergonomic mod' did bring up the right answer, if six positions down the page:
http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?pid=6257
(http://folk.uio.no/obech/Images/Colemak/Cmk-BoardFigs/CmkIBM-ANSI60d-AFrame_Tinted.png)
Benefits:
- Much improved left wrist angle
- Easier reach for the B key (which is a fairly common letter)
- Keeps the same fingering as you're used to for most important keys
- The relatively common /? key is taken from the weak right pinky to the strong right index finger
- Shorter right pinky stretches to the Shift/Enter/Backspace(!) keys
Prices to pay:
- The = [ ] keys change hands (not a big deal in my opinion but YMMV)
- Somewhat more load on the left pinky
- Longer left pinky stretches to Tab/Shift/Caps (the new LShift stretch is the same as the normal one on an ISO board)
- The relatively common /? key needs to be relearnt
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Thanks, DreymaR, that link clears it up nicely. Some really interesting ideas on that thread, too.
The on-going quest to make what we have work best for us - brilliant.
BTW, your colour-coded pics on that thread made it extremely easy to see how the layouts are supposed to be used.