geekhack
geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 24 October 2014, 07:45:24
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LAWRENCEVILLE, GA (CBS46) - It turned out to be the pee wee football player's first touchdown and the first fine for the 8-year-old.
The Lawrenceville Black Knights were beating another team, 32-0, in the fourth quarter. No. 2 intercepted a pass and in the excitement of the moment forgot about the leagues mercy rule.
That touchdown passed the 33-point rule and cost the coach a week long suspension and the team $500.
"We were all super excited,he was beyond excited and we were fined for it," Brooke Burdett said. It was Burdett's son, Elijah Burrell, who caught the pass.
"He had no idea. This is his first year. This was his first touchdown. He is an 8-year-old boy making a pick-six."
Burdett said running up the score was not intentional. On the next play they even tried to let the other team score but Burdett said they refused to catch the ball.
"For the league to think we intentionally went out there to run the score up is absurd," football mom Chando John said.
John said she has been with the team for three years and wants the mercy rule changed.
"How do I explain to an eight year old kid that your coach has been suspended because your teammate unintentionally scored?" Chando asked. "It is hard having an 8-year-old in flight to think of everything everybody has said, other than I need to make a touchdown."
Burdett said they would have accepted a $100 fine, but said a $500 fine and the coach's suspension is excessive.
http://www.cbs46.com/story/26879563/8-year-old-scores-touchdown-team-fined-500? (http://www.cbs46.com/story/26879563/8-year-old-scores-touchdown-team-fined-500?)
I know every kid needs a trophy and to be a winner but come on, kids also need to learn losing is real and if you grow up always being given a pass it probably isn't going to turn out well when you are an adult.
As is mentioned further down for young kids yes it's good to play on a team to learn cooperation and teamwork.
And like jd said, if they want to have a mercy rule then just call the game at that point.
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I know dude I'm with you.
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Suspended because your team is too good ?
americans be crazy
Now the scrubs who lost 0-33 be all like "yeah they got fined "
Loosing is a valuable lessons , kids gotta cry to learn life .
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Wow.
The world is a scary place...
...oh, and money is the root of all evil...
:blank:
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Wow.
The world is a scary place...
...oh, and money is the root of all evil...
:blank:
Actually, I believe a wise man once said, "NOT having money is the root of all evil."
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They could prevent the other team getting stomped by adding leg and wrist weights to the winning team and maybe some dope dark sunglasses to boot.
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I get the idea they are going for of not wanting some poor team to get completely buried but if that's all they are worried about then maybe they should just say first team to 30 points and call it a game at that point.
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I get the idea they are going for of not wanting some poor team to get completely buried but if that's all they are worried about then maybe they should just say first team to 30 points and call it a game at that point.
Maybe they should teach their kids to try harder. Or maybe these pussies should quit putting their kids in competitive sports, and take them out back to hug a tree and sing We Are The World.
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Wow.
The world is a scary place...
...oh, and money is the root of all evil...
:blank:
Actually, I believe a wise man once said, "NOT having money is the root of all evil."
I don't agree with that quote entirely, but I see your point. Money sucks, especially when you don't have any.
I was pointing out the greed of the "league" for charging a kids football team $500 essentially over a bunch of broken dreams. That's ****ing criminal.
Dreams don't come true, kids.
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Guise, don't you know, the kids are all unique little butterflies. If you're not careful and don't carefully nurture their uniqueness and constantly tell them they're winners, that they deserve everything in life to be given to them, and that, as long as you try, there are no losers in life, they will literally die.
I'm not even that old, but god, we need to stop with this bull**** already. We didn't have this when I was a kid. And if there was a mercy rule, the game ended with the other team losing, it wasn't this "let the other team score and stop playing the game" bull****. Kids need to learn how to lose with grace, even if it's a total ass whooping. They need to learn that sometimes trying your hardest isn't good enough and you'll lose or someone will be better than you. That's life and this BS just makes a bunch of entitled kids who think they deserve everything handed to them on a silver platter.
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Whats wrong with this world is that 1% of the population controls like 50% of the planets wealth.
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Whats wrong with this world is that 1% of the population controls like 50% of the planets wealth.
And their mission is simple: to kill competition among the low levels, such that they have no desire to fight for anything more in life, therefore will not come for their money. But they must start at a young age.
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Sadly nowadays kiddies are threated like a gift from heaven .
Some parents are raising them like that thinking "I want to give the best to my child" , they're just putting him in a protected environment he'll never grew out off !
Kids gotta success and fall on their own , with parents monitoring it .
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I get the idea, but this is terrible execution of it.
I coach a basketball team in a similar age range and in this league they do not keep score. It is pretty nice, the kids have fun and the parents do not get as worked up. :p
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Yeah, if there is a mercy rule at 33 points, and the one team was up 32-0, the game should have been over at that point. Why were they still playing?
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I get the idea, but this is terrible execution of it.
I coach a basketball team in a similar age range and in this league they do not keep score. It is pretty nice, the kids have fun and the parents do not get as worked up. :p
I heard of this , isn't there people still counting though ? I knew 8-yo me would have counted .
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Wtf is mercy rule? Smh
Real life mercy rule = there is no mercy
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My oldest kid is in first grade and they don't even get grades anymore.
A couple teachers were telling my wife they are probably going to be taking the 'no grades' to the whole school next year, personally I think its the dumbest thing in the world. :facepalm:
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My oldest kid is in first grade and they don't even get grades anymore.
A couple teachers were telling my wife they are probably going to be taking the 'no grades' to the whole school next year, personally I think its the dumbest thing in the world. :facepalm:
Yes. Smartest thing ever. Remove their knowledge of what grades are, and then throw grades at them in middle school, and punish them for not understanding what you haven't taught them yet.
Seriously, consider putting your kid in a school that you think is better for him/her.
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I get the idea, but this is terrible execution of it.
I coach a basketball team in a similar age range and in this league they do not keep score. It is pretty nice, the kids have fun and the parents do not get as worked up. :p
I heard of this , isn't there people still counting though ? I knew 8-yo me would have counted .
There are definitely a couple of kids who consistently ask what the score is. My usual response: "It is [random number] to [random number]. Good job! Keep playing!".
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Also, whats the point in teaching children sports if you don't let them loose?
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Seriously, consider putting your kid in a school that you think is better for him/her.
Sad reality is that was one of the larger factors in our decision for staying where we are and not moving elsewhere, we thought this school system was one of the better ones. ???
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Being from the UK my perspective is different, but I wouldn't dream of trying to make out I want the best for my children and there education and not then having them privately educated.
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Also, whats the point in teaching children sports if you don't let them loose?
I think with this age group sports are seen as more of a social interaction. Also usually (although perhaps not this young) there are 'social' and competitive leagues.
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Being from the UK my perspective is different, but I wouldn't dream of trying to make out I want the best for my children and there education and not then having them privately educated.
Another option we did look into, in our area there were only two viable 'private' options but in reality the only main difference between them and the public offerings was the 'private' schools are just religious.
And to all you private school kids out there, I do not want my kids being snobby little brats either. :))
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Being from the UK my perspective is different, but I wouldn't dream of trying to make out I want the best for my children and there education and not then having them privately educated.
Another option we did look into, in our area there were only two viable 'private' options but in reality the only main difference between them and the public offerings was the 'private' schools are just religious.
Not going to lie that can be a problem, my school had a reverend that lived on site and (the whole building was an old Edwardian public school) a huge church that held all our assemblies, yet I still turned out a happy atheist. I went to both state and private school at all levels (bar college and uni) and the difference in teaching and environment is huge and if you raise your kids right and make sure they never stop asking questions religion wouldn't be a problem, though I guess it could be different in the US, idk lol
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I HATE trophies, medals, and ribbons for participation.
It's like saying "Yay for mediocrity!"
The world does not work like that. You want trophies, awards, etc? Do something exceptional. Your boss is not going to say "Oh, you showed up on time? Here's a raise!" No, you get rewarded based on the merits of your work.
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Guise, don't you know, the kids are all unique little butterflies. If you're not careful and don't carefully nurture their uniqueness and constantly tell them they're winners, that they deserve everything in life to be given to them, and that, as long as you try, there are no losers in life, they will literally die.
I'm not even that old, but god, we need to stop with this bull**** already. We didn't have this when I was a kid. And if there was a mercy rule, the game ended with the other team losing, it wasn't this "let the other team score and stop playing the game" bull****. Kids need to learn how to lose with grace, even if it's a total ass whooping. They need to learn that sometimes trying your hardest isn't good enough and you'll lose or someone will be better than you. That's life and this BS just makes a bunch of entitled kids who think they deserve everything handed to them on a silver platter.
^ This times eleventy billion.
You can thank the Marxists who have overrun the education system.
"Give me just one generation of youth, and I'll transform the whole world." - Vlad Lenin
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Being from the UK my perspective is different, but I wouldn't dream of trying to make out I want the best for my children and there education and not then having them privately educated.
Another option we did look into, in our area there were only two viable 'private' options but in reality the only main difference between them and the public offerings was the 'private' schools are just religious.
Not going to lie that can be a problem, my school had a reverend that lived on site and (the whole building was an old Edwardian public school) a huge church that held all our assemblies, yet I still turned out a happy atheist. I went to both state and private school at all levels (bar college and uni) and the difference in teaching and environment is huge and if you raise your kids right and make sure they never stop asking questions religion wouldn't be a problem, though I guess it could be different in the US, idk lol
Oh I didn't mind the religious part but that's a whole other issue. :D
Anyways, back on topic here.
I HATE trophies, medals, and ribbons for participation.
It's like saying "Yay for mediocrity!"
The world does not work like that. You want trophies, awards, etc? Do something exceptional. Your boss is not going to say "Oh, you showed up on time? Here's a raise!" No, you get rewarded based on the merits of your work.
^^ This so much.
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I HATE trophies, medals, and ribbons for participation.
I agree with this for older children. But for young kids (and I mean like Kindergarten and 1st grade) who are just learning how to participate in an activity, the actual learning to participate in a group activity often is the main goal. Someone else mentioned this, but just learning to socialize properly, and work towards a common goal is important for young kids. They absolutely should be allowed to lose once they get past an introductory stage. Learning to lose - and learning to be a gracious winner, are very important skills to learn early on. You are absolutely right that teaching kids that just being "okay" isn't enough to set them up for a successful future.
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I HATE trophies, medals, and ribbons for participation.
It's like saying "Yay for mediocrity!"
The world does not work like that. You want trophies, awards, etc? Do something exceptional. Your boss is not going to say "Oh, you showed up on time? Here's a raise!" No, you get rewarded based on the merits of your work.
One of the leagues i was in as a kid gave a small metal trophy to everyone at the end, but they also gave medals to the teams that won and medals to the highest score-er or best defence , and also the 'most improved' I though that was sick. My first year I only got a trophy, but the year after that I got most improved and highest score. It feels good to have a physical thing that represents commitment. But an award should be something on top of that
My view is that praising good effort is positive, winning is not everything. But making everyone equal no matter what is not positive.
A good boss 'should' notice you always do come in on time, that should count for something because it does take effort. You are right just coming in on time does not get you a medal.
I think there is a positive middle ground that compels Kids to try harder but still shows them that hard work counts even when you don't win
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I think you're off base with this one, SpamRay. You noted the one team was beating the other 32-0, and somehow they got so excited they forgot they were so far ahead? Bullcrap. That's a team/coach/parents who were just demolishing the losing team, and enjoying it. That's not winning, a game score that lop-sided is just abuse. Why were those teams even in the same league?If my kid was on the losing side of that fracas, and there were no repercussions for the coach who ignored the league rule, I'd pull my kid out of the league altogether.
The point that I'm making is that football, soccer, baseball, hockey, lacrosse, cricket or whatever at this level is just a game. Kids should be encouraged to play, not just play to win. There are far too few opportunities for physical activity for American school-kids, so any chance they get to play, they should be encouraged to play. Humiliating a team of little kids so one group can drive up the score even more egregiously is not doing that.
The broader point I've seen explicated by a few responses is that kids need to learn to win, so they are better prepared for life in general. Sure, if you want kids to be sociopathic little monsters that have zero empathy or ability to work cooperatively. I want my son to learn how a team operates, how players with strong skills in one or another area share the load, communicate and work together so the whole team wins. And realize as well that next season they could be the ones on the "other" team, so play fair and enjoy the game.
The quote I like that best exemplifies my point of view is from Martina Navratilova; "What matters isn't how well you play when you're playing well. What matters is how well you play when you're playing badly."
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My oldest kid is in first grade and they don't even get grades anymore.
A couple teachers were telling my wife they are probably going to be taking the 'no grades' to the whole school next year, personally I think its the dumbest thing in the world. :facepalm:
The 'no grades' rule is good for teachers' unions. With no meaningful metric to gauge a teacher's effectiveness, life will be so much easier. As for a 'mercy' rule in sports, I'm not against it -- teaching children mercy isn't a bad thing. Showing the other team some mercy is okay -- they still lost, so, I don't see the problem with showing them some mercy. I know that isn't how the real world works, but children don't inhabit the real world, that's why they call it 'childhood'.
I think a fine for not obeying the mercy rule to the letter is ridiculous, in the same way that banning bake sales (http://benswann.com/federal-bake-sale-ban-set-to-hit-schools-this-fall/) and policing lemonade stands for their permits (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/03/the-inexplicable-war-on-lemonade-stands/) are ridiculous.
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The broader point I've seen explicated by a few responses is that kids need to learn to win, so they are better prepared for life in general. Sure, if you want kids to be sociopathic little monsters that have zero empathy or ability to work cooperatively. I want my son to learn how a team operates, how players with strong skills in one or another area share the load, communicate and work together so the whole team wins.
to learn to win a team game, kids surely need to know "how a team operates, how players with strong skills in one or another area share the load, communicate and work together so the whole team wins".
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The 'no grades' rule is good for teachers' unions. With no meaningful metric to gauge a teacher's effectiveness, life will be so much easier.
Bullcrap.
Whenever I see anyone ranking on teacher's unions (never firefighter's unions or police unions...) I can guarantee they're motivated by right-wing hatred of public education paid for by taxes. Enforcing random metrics for "teacher performance" is the thin wedge issue to try to cut school funding. You ever notice how performance metrics are never used to justify increased school funding? Or raise taxes so we can actually have smaller class sizes, more teachers?
The Republican wet dream is a world where the peons are marginally literate (so they can be easily bamboozled), and only the ones with money can afford to pay for education for their kids.
Go peddle that crap somewhere else.
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I think you're off base with this one, SpamRay. You noted the one team was beating the other 32-0, and somehow they got so excited they forgot they were so far ahead? Bullcrap. That's a team/coach/parents who were just demolishing the losing team, and enjoying it. That's not winning, a game score that lop-sided is just abuse. Why were those teams even in the same league?If my kid was on the losing side of that fracas, and there were no repercussions for the coach who ignored the league rule, I'd pull my kid out of the league altogether.
The point that I'm making is that football, soccer, baseball, hockey, lacrosse, cricket or whatever at this level is just a game. Kids should be encouraged to play, not just play to win. There are far too few opportunities for physical activity for American school-kids, so any chance they get to play, they should be encouraged to play. Humiliating a team of little kids so one group can drive up the score even more egregiously is not doing that.
The broader point I've seen explicated by a few responses is that kids need to learn to win, so they are better prepared for life in general. Sure, if you want kids to be sociopathic little monsters that have zero empathy or ability to work cooperatively. I want my son to learn how a team operates, how players with strong skills in one or another area share the load, communicate and work together so the whole team wins. And realize as well that next season they could be the ones on the "other" team, so play fair and enjoy the game.
The quote I like that best exemplifies my point of view is from Martina Navratilova; "What matters isn't how well you play when you're playing well. What matters is how well you play when you're playing badly."
so what you're saying is the coach should've screamed at the kid and his team mates should've tackled him b4 he ran for the TD?
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The 'no grades' rule is good for teachers' unions. With no meaningful metric to gauge a teacher's effectiveness, life will be so much easier.
Bullcrap.
Whenever I see anyone ranking on teacher's unions (never firefighter's unions or police unions...) I can guarantee they're motivated by right-wing hatred of public education paid for by taxes. Enforcing random metrics for "teacher performance" is the thin wedge issue to try to cut school funding. You ever notice how performance metrics are never used to justify increased school funding? Or raise taxes so we can actually have smaller class sizes, more teachers?
The Republican wet dream is a world where the peons are marginally literate (so they can be easily bamboozled), and only the ones with money can afford to pay for education for their kids.
Go peddle that crap somewhere else.
um where do you live? My old school district parrots their SAT & AP scores every year to increase that school budget.
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I think you're off base with this one, SpamRay. You noted the one team was beating the other 32-0, and somehow they got so excited they forgot they were so far ahead? Bullcrap. That's a team/coach/parents who were just demolishing the losing team, and enjoying it. That's not winning, a game score that lop-sided is just abuse.
Do we really know that's how it happened? We don't. I support a mercy rule on the basis that they are children, and this is a game that's supposed to be fun, not spirit-crushing. There's got to be a 'loser' in every game, in every sport, that's fine -- that's life -- but to be mercilessly crushed (while a part of real life) doesn't have to be a part of 'childhood'.
Why were those teams even in the same league?If my kid was on the losing side of that fracas, and there were no repercussions for the coach who ignored the league rule, I'd pull my kid out of the league altogether.
I think what SpamRay is offended by is the attitude you've expressed -- if things don't go my way, I'm out. "My child's self-confidence is a delicate flower, and if you dare to crinkle so much as a single petal, I will remove myself from your presence, and then you'll be sorry." No, we won't. I think the league rule is fine, it's just the heavy-handed application of the rule that's offensive.
The broader point I've seen explicated by a few responses is that kids need to learn to win, so they are better prepared for life in general. Sure, if you want kids to be sociopathic little monsters that have zero empathy or ability to work cooperatively.
Yeah, so tired of this argument. Life is not one big non-competitive drum circle. Neither is it (nor should it be) a bloodsport requiring adults to be 'sociopaths'. There's a group of people (of which you must be a member) that find the concept of 'winning' to be so very gauche. Isn't it possible that the winning team won because they displayed the non-sociopathic skill set you desire?
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The 'no grades' rule is good for teachers' unions. With no meaningful metric to gauge a teacher's effectiveness, life will be so much easier.
You want to make teacher's lives and jobs easier? Get rid of the goddamned No Child Left Behind and stop basing a teacher's effectiveness (not to mention whether or not they keep their jobs) on whether or not their students pass the standardized tests. Teachers are there to help a student LEARN, not memorize. Unfortunately, so much emphasis is based on these goddamned standardized tests that teachers are forced to forgo traditional lessons in order to prepare students for the exams, and as a result, students are actually learning LESS than they should be. It's bull****, it's wrong, and it's making the next generation dumber by the test.
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The 'no grades' rule is good for teachers' unions. With no meaningful metric to gauge a teacher's effectiveness, life will be so much easier.
You want to make teacher's lives and jobs easier? Get rid of the goddamned No Child Left Behind and stop basing a teacher's effectiveness (not to mention whether or not they keep their jobs) on whether or not their students pass the standardized tests. Teachers are there to help a student LEARN, not memorize. Unfortunately, so much emphasis is based on these goddamned standardized tests that teachers are forced to forgo traditional lessons in order to prepare students for the exams, and as a result, students are actually learning LESS than they should be. It's bull****, it's wrong, and it's making the next generation dumber by the test.
so why is it the rest of the world doesn't seem to have this problem?
I can only give examples from southeast asia, but kids in southeast asia have been on the testing curve for a long time. I don't see the big problem with them being considered dumber by the test.
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In Finland, children may not get grades for up to 7th year.
Finland ranks consistently among the top countries in school education.
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Whenever I see anyone ranking on teacher's unions (never firefighter's unions or police unions...) I can guarantee they're motivated by right-wing hatred of public education paid for by taxes. Enforcing random metrics for "teacher performance" is the thin wedge issue to try to cut school funding. You ever notice how performance metrics are never used to justify increased school funding? Or raise taxes so we can actually have smaller class sizes, more teachers?
I can criticize police and firefighter's unions, too, if you want.
How you can 'guarantee' what my motives are, Tarzan?
I have friends and family members who are in these unions, and make a distinction between the unions and their members. A lot of good people are trapped in these foul, foul organizations. What I notice about education in America is this: we reward failure and punish success -- which is precisely the opposite of how the real world works. If you run a business poorly, you don't get additional funding, you get less. Poorly-run schools, however, they get more money. They're the public sector equivalent of 'too-big-to-fail', and that policy should end in both spheres.
Teacher's unions only ever have one solution for their every shortcoming -- more money. And if you don't agree, you must hate children. Nice racket.
The Republican wet dream is a world where the peons are marginally literate (so they can be easily bamboozled), and only the ones with money can afford to pay for education for their kids.
We already have that! Why would Republicans want to fix the education system by destroying teacher's unions if they already have what you describe? Public education isn't about educating children any more, it's a public works project for teachers. And as a businessperson, I want the public to have a good education -- so I can find someone to hire! I've had so many barely literate candidates fail the most basic math test. I mean it from the bottom of my tarry, black conservative heart -- the world must be a terrifying place when you can barely add fractions, and I feel for these people.
Go peddle that crap somewhere else.
Back at ya, Tarzan. :thumb:
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<snip>
I mean it from the bottom of my tarry, black conservative heart...
<snip>
FTFY
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Perhaps we should start a thread about the merits of common core education. #hottopics2014
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baby boomers are whats wrong with this world. and helicopter parenting.
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The 'no grades' rule is good for teachers' unions. With no meaningful metric to gauge a teacher's effectiveness, life will be so much easier.
You want to make teacher's lives and jobs easier? Get rid of the goddamned No Child Left Behind and stop basing a teacher's effectiveness (not to mention whether or not they keep their jobs) on whether or not their students pass the standardized tests. Teachers are there to help a student LEARN, not memorize. Unfortunately, so much emphasis is based on these goddamned standardized tests that teachers are forced to forgo traditional lessons in order to prepare students for the exams, and as a result, students are actually learning LESS than they should be. It's bull****, it's wrong, and it's making the next generation dumber by the test.
I would go far further. I would institute a national educational voucher program. How much are we going to spend per pupil for their education? Let's say $5000 per child? Okay, every parent gets a voucher for that amount. Then you can find a school of your choice for your child, and $5000 towards the tuition. If the tuition is $6000, then find the extra $1000 on your own. Existing public schools will accept the voucher along with your child, however -- the parent would retain the right to decide where their child goes. So, if your local school is ****ty, pull your kid, pull the funding, and put the money towards a school that does work.
Then the successful public schools would get more money, more kids, and hopefully grow. Bad schools would wither and die if they couldn't improve. And private sector schools (religious or not) would get funding if they were effective. This would put the parents in the driver's seat, instead of the unions. The answer is more choices, more power, for parents -- and less for the unions.
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<snip>
I mean it from the bottom of my tarry, black conservative heart...
<snip>
FTFY
It's fine, I think you're evil too. :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher
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The 'no grades' rule is good for teachers' unions. With no meaningful metric to gauge a teacher's effectiveness, life will be so much easier.
You want to make teacher's lives and jobs easier? Get rid of the goddamned No Child Left Behind and stop basing a teacher's effectiveness (not to mention whether or not they keep their jobs) on whether or not their students pass the standardized tests. Teachers are there to help a student LEARN, not memorize. Unfortunately, so much emphasis is based on these goddamned standardized tests that teachers are forced to forgo traditional lessons in order to prepare students for the exams, and as a result, students are actually learning LESS than they should be. It's bull****, it's wrong, and it's making the next generation dumber by the test.
I would go far further. I would institute a national educational voucher program. How much are we going to spend per pupil for their education? Let's say $5000 per child? Okay, every parent gets a voucher for that amount. Then you can find a school of your choice for your child, and $5000 towards the tuition. If the tuition is $6000, then find the extra $1000 on your own. Existing public schools will accept the voucher along with your child, however -- the parent would retain the right to decide where their child goes. So, if your local school is ****ty, pull your kid, pull the funding, and put the money towards a school that does work.
Then the successful public schools would get more money, more kids, and hopefully grow. Bad schools would wither and die if they couldn't improve. And private sector schools (religious or not) would get funding if they were effective. This would put the parents in the driver's seat, instead of the unions. The answer is more choices, more power, for parents -- and less for the unions.
And for families that can not afford the $1000/yr/child? Or families that do not value education to pay the $1000/yr/child? Seems like you will still have some of the same problems we have now. Children from more well off families will go to better schools while children from less fortunate families will go to worse schools.
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Up through elementary ages, having no score keeping is fine. It's about an activity, learning how things work, it's rules, socialization and so on. I don't agree with the all are same/equal there though as it only breeds bad ideas and sense of entitlement at a young age. But it needs to shift over to competitive basis eventually once a certain age is reached. Then it's time to learn life isn't fair, that you have to actually work at something to improve skills, learn from failure and more.
As far as the US education system, it's been declining by design. It's all about controlling the population. If people get too intelligent it becomes a huge problem for those in power. They also want to keep that massive disparity in the income divide going.
The biggest problem with education in my view is the idea of grade levels. It's why I hated traditional school so much. If it wasn't for alternative school where I was able to complete courses on my own very quick pace I wouldn't have even graduated.
People learn things in different ways, at different paces. It would be much better to have classes based on aptitude than age group... at least for those of us that would operate better that way.
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And for families that can not afford the $1000/yr/child? Or families that do not value education to pay the $1000/yr/child? Seems like you will still have some of the same problems we have now. Children from more well off families will go to better schools while children from less fortunate families will go to worse schools.
You've hit the nail on the head. Voucher programs are just another effort by "business folks" to cut their taxes that go towards education, while leaving the door wide open to spend anything they want on private schools.
My son goes to public school, even though we can afford private school. He's had a mix of good-to-great teachers, and looks forward every day to new challenges in his classroom. Overall I think our school is rated middle/upper for our area, but that hasn't prevented the state from cutting educational budgets so they've had to eliminate teaching positions and increase class sizes. I never expected growing up that my government would be so focused on cutting education funding, the concept is so at odds with our image as a great nation.
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And for families that can not afford the $1000/yr/child? Or families that do not value education to pay the $1000/yr/child? Seems like you will still have some of the same problems we have now. Children from more well off families will go to better schools while children from less fortunate families will go to worse schools.
You've hit the nail on the head. Voucher programs are just another effort by "business folks" to cut their taxes that go towards education, while leaving the door wide open to spend anything they want on private schools.
My son goes to public school, even though we can afford private school. He's had a mix of good-to-great teachers, and looks forward every day to new challenges in his classroom. Overall I think our school is rated middle/upper for our area, but that hasn't prevented the state from cutting educational budgets so they've had to eliminate teaching positions and increase class sizes. I never expected growing up that my government would be so focused on cutting education funding, the concept is so at odds with our image as a great nation.
again thats a broad brush
like i mentioned, my school district budget's gone up pretty much every year about 2% a year. The proposed school budget for 2014-2015 is $212,730,695. Property tax for this coming year will increase 1.34%
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<snipped big section of stuff I agreed with whole-heartedly...>
The biggest problem with education in my view is the idea of grade levels. It's why I hated traditional school so much. If it wasn't for alternative school where I was able to complete courses on my own very quick pace I wouldn't have even graduated.
People learn things in different ways, at different paces. It would be much better to have classes based on aptitude than age group... at least for those of us that would operate better that way.
My father was a schoolteacher, and he always let us have the choice; we could go to school, or be home-schooled. Some years I went to public school, and some years I worked my butt off at home. It was fun, and I learned a ton of stuff, ended up going into college at 16 and graduating early, but in retrospect I missed the public school years more than I expected. My spouse was a schoolteacher when we met, so we could home-school easily, but I want my son to build interpersonal skills as well as academic skills. The US public school system is a real melting pot of cultures and backgrounds, and that's the sort of rich variety in life I want him to experience as part of growing up in America.
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What is winning....
Why do we need to WIN..
What DO WE WIN...
If those parameters are not clearly defined, given how we sugar coat the world to children, it's no wonder they're all so confused and aimless..
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Interacting with others is an important skill to learn. Even with a mixed age classes based on skill level as I propose, it would still be a school with school hours or close to it so there would still be recess and activities. From my own experience, all my friends were met through my outside interests I had at the time. I rarely had friends that were from my same school, they lived all over town. Generally people make friends with others with common interests rather than simply being the same age, from the same neighborhood.
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The proposed school budget for 2014-2015 is $212,730,695.
:eek: :-\ :-X
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And for families that can not afford the $1000/yr/child?
Those families still have the voucher and the choice of public schools (or private schools) that are willing to take the voucher face value. And maybe there are schools with a tuition of (voucher value) + (amount that the family can afford). Even if they don't have the money, at least parents have a choice. And that's something that they don't have now.
Or families that do not value education to pay the $1000/yr/child?
Excellent point! How do you save a child with parents that don't give a damn? You don't. If your parents don't think education is of any value whatsoever, you likely have bad parents. And I don't believe a government bureaucrat is going to swoop in and save that child. I would prefer a system that allows the children who can be saved, to be saved. Right now if your parents value education a great deal but don't have the money for a private school ... they're screwed. At least with a voucher a caring parent would have some choices, as opposed to no choices.
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So... ya'll preaching about friendship and interaction advice based on what experience... HAHAHAHA..
When was the last time you had AFK friends.. or WANTED to be AFK..
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should all kids have ebola
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should all kids have ebola
no...
maybe... welll... no... not allllll
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should all kids have ebola
You try it first and see what happens.
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This isn't the America I grew up in.
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And for families that can not afford the $1000/yr/child?
Those families still have the voucher and the choice of public schools (or private schools) that are willing to take the voucher face value. And maybe there are schools with a tuition of (voucher value) + (amount that the family can afford). Even if they don't have the money, at least parents have a choice. And that's something that they don't have now.
It still doesn't seem like they have the choice if they do not have the money. A counter scenario is that private schools are initially financially comparable, until there are no more public schools. Then tuition is raised and there are no more choices left.
Or families that do not value education to pay the $1000/yr/child?
Excellent point! How do you save a child with parents that don't give a damn? You don't. If your parents don't think education is of any value whatsoever, you likely have bad parents. And I don't believe a government bureaucrat is going to swoop in and save that child. I would prefer a system that allows the children who can be saved, to be saved. Right now if your parents value education a great deal but don't have the money for a private school ... they're screwed. At least with a voucher a caring parent would have some choices, as opposed to no choices.
I am not sure if I agree with dooming children based on their parents choices. In reality, sure that happens. I do not think that it should be a blatant goal though.
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should all kids have ebola
You try it first and see what happens.
sure send me some body fluids and ill hand it over to the kindergarten
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again thats a broad brush
like i mentioned, my school district budget's gone up pretty much every year about 2% a year. The proposed school budget for 2014-2015 is $212,730,695. Property tax for this coming year will increase 1.34%
Like I said before, the unions never have enough money. And they never will have enough. That's what socialized organizations do -- they invariably offer a low-quality product at a very high price.
I don't mind paying for education, I just expect to get some value. As it stands now, if I send my child to a private school I still have to pay for the crappy public school. So I end up paying twice for education. And this also distorts the housing market -- the quality of the local public schools determines house prices, and that makes no sense at all.
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You know what's funny. Kids that go to a private school and can't get into an ivy league or public ivy or even a 1st tier college.
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You know what's funny. Kids that go to a private school and can't get into an ivy league or public ivy or even a 1st tier college.
because they are white?
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You know what's funny. Kids that go to a private school and can't get into an ivy league or public ivy or even a 1st tier college.
because they are white?
yup. oppression of whites is incredible.
or maybe they thought since they can afford private schools they ****ed around and wasted their high school time.
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It still doesn't seem like they have the choice if they do not have the money. A counter scenario is that private schools are initially financially comparable, until there are no more public schools. Then tuition is raised and there are no more choices left.
So in your counter scenario privately run schools provide a better education than a public school, and then those public schools go out of business. And then all those schools do what? Raise the price? By then there's an actual education market (what we have now amounts to a cartel), and jacking up prices just makes the other schools look more attractive.
I am not sure if I agree with dooming children based on their parents choices. In reality, sure that happens. I do not think that it should be a blatant goal though.
It's not my goal to doom any children. Fate and bad choices did that -- I just want to see the children who do have a fighting chance get that chance. And competition raises the bar for all competitors. Not every consumer fights for quality, etc. -- but the few who do drive improvements that benefit those others. This wouldn't be a perfect system (every child gets a perfect education), but it would be far better than what we have now -- not because it wouldn't produce failures, but because it wouldn't reward those failures.
And think about all the political nonsense that would end if most schools were private? No longer would children have a 'right' to attend. A privately run school could outline, in writing, that there is or is not a Christmas Pageant every year. So if a parent gets their panties in twist over that event (or lack of the event) it was all up front at the start. And if they're that incensed, they can pull their child out of the school and find one that suits them. No more huge court cases over bull****.
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You know what's funny. Kids that go to a private school and can't get into an ivy league or public ivy or even a 1st tier college.
because they are white?
Or Asian. Damned non-minority Asians!
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again thats a broad brush
like i mentioned, my school district budget's gone up pretty much every year about 2% a year. The proposed school budget for 2014-2015 is $212,730,695. Property tax for this coming year will increase 1.34%
I don't mind paying for education, I just expect to get some value. As it stands now, if I send my child to a private school I still have to pay for the crappy public school. So I end up paying twice for education. And this also distorts the housing market -- the quality of the local public schools determines house prices, and that makes no sense at all.
I am not sure how a voucher program changes this fact. I also really do not know too much about the voucher program, so maybe it is my ignorance. It seems like with this program, you still pay taxes, and then the government redistributes this and gives everyone an education credit. So if you are very well off (as in you pay more into taxes then what you get back) then you are still paying more for education and also possibly still subsidizing the crappy school system depending on where other people send their kids to. If you are not so well off (as in your credit is more than you paid in), you are accepting a hand out (which I do not think you are in favor of).
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I don't mind paying for education, I just expect to get some value. As it stands now, if I send my child to a private school I still have to pay for the crappy public school. So I end up paying twice for education. And this also distorts the housing market -- the quality of the local public schools determines house prices, and that makes no sense at all.
I am not sure how a voucher program changes this fact. I also really do not know too much about the voucher program, so maybe it is my ignorance. It seems like with this program, you still pay taxes, and then the government redistributes this and gives everyone an education credit.
Correct - an educational voucher program would still require income redistribution. The difference is that the one person most likely to care about the quality of a child's education (the parent) now controls how that money is spent. I don't mind paying for other people's education either, so long as it's a good education. I do have a problem with money being pissed away on a ****ty education.
The concept of educational vouchers started with Nobel Prize-winning economists Milton and Rose Friedman. An explanation of their proposal is here: http://www.edchoice.org/The-Friedmans/The-Friedmans-on-School-Choice
I appreciate you being open to at least hearing the idea out Xowie, instead of just declaring me to be Satan. :thumb:
So if you are very well off (as in you pay more into taxes then what you get back)
Fun fact: Only the top 50% of all income earners pay Income Taxes. The bottom half pay nothing, or receive money. So you're talking about roughly 50% of the population.
then you are still paying more for education and also possibly still subsidizing the crappy school system depending on where other people send their kids to. If you are not so well off (as in your credit is more than you paid in), you are accepting a hand out (which I do not think you are in favor of).
I'm not against a 'handout' or a 'safety net' -- but modern progressives have made these 'nets' into hammocks -- systems that purport to help people, but instead trap them in a life of infantilization and dependency. No other nation on earth spends as much as America does for education, for such a horrid result. Progressives don't care about the results of their handouts, just their noble intent. It's a bit like giving a homeless person money, when you know they're going to use it to buy 'Wild Irish Rose'-brand whiskey in the plastic bottle. The fact they're killing themselves with your handout doesn't bother the Progressive. What matters to him is being able to smell their own fragrant farts and say, "I'm part of the solution!" -- even as they're part of the problem.
Our educational system does not work. We need to break that system open and allow for competition.
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You know what's funny. Kids that go to a private school and can't get into an ivy league or public ivy or even a 1st tier college.
because they are white?
You know what's funny. Kids that go to a private school and can't get into an ivy league or public ivy or even a 1st tier college.
because they are white?
Or Asian. Damned non-minority Asians!
What... :))
you guys :/
The point is that private schools are supposed to make college applications easier but there's no point if you spend all that money and then the kid doesn't get into a high tier school. Congrats you just wasted 4-7 years of money.
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The problem with government education vouchers is that it makes the U.S. too much of a nanny state. Federal government interference in education (i.e. - NCLB and standardized testing) is what got us to this point. Adding more government interference will only serve to make things worse.
What needs to happen is that the government needs to back off and instead of mandating "YOUR CHILD MUST PASS NO MATTER WHAT" and using standardized tests, how about you federally subsidize teaching programs to produce better, more knowledgeable teachers as well as have a higher salary structure for teachers.
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The broader point I've seen explicated by a few responses is that kids need to learn to win, so they are better prepared for life in general. Sure, if you want kids to be sociopathic little monsters that have zero empathy or ability to work cooperatively. I want my son to learn how a team operates, how players with strong skills in one or another area share the load, communicate and work together so the whole team wins. And realize as well that next season they could be the ones on the "other" team, so play fair and enjoy the game.
The quote I like that best exemplifies my point of view is from Martina Navratilova; "What matters isn't how well you play when you're playing well. What matters is how well you play when you're playing badly."
i completely agree with your end goal, but i say if you really want to encourage your kid to develop those skills/mindser, then based on practical experience, i would say that team sports really isn't the way to go.
individual sports accomplish that much more effectively. why?
-you're by yourself; there is NEVER anyone you can blame or whose hardwork you can take credit for. you're sad you lose? well, that's because YOU are not working hard enough. someone in a individual sport will never spend time whining and will instead spend that whining time practicing and getting better.
-everyone needs mentorship. if the athlete wants to get better, they WILL learn to develop their ability to talk to adults. if they don't their coach will just ignore and leave them to rot. why am I rotting? they will ask. well, you'll have an easy answer for them.
-you still need your teammates. but this time it's for practice and moral support rather than the actual competition. this is the same thing as with the coach; learning to treat others well and give and take apppropriately. there are some individual sports that you NEED a team mate for, such as wrestling.
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FYI, I just ignored most of what Tarzan and Krogenar said, as their discussion is hardly relative to this topic. And offensive to my special snowflake nature.
Ray, you want to know what's wrong with people today?
This Wikipedia entry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generational_theory) sums it up pretty well.
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FYI, I just ignored most of what Tarzan and Krogenar said, as their discussion is hardly relative to this topic. And offensive to my special snowflake nature.
Ray, you want to know what's wrong with people today?
This Wikipedia entry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generational_theory) sums it up pretty well.
So if I don't like it now just wait 20-40 years and it'll all change. ;)
Now I know where some of those terms originated.
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If everyone's a winner, no one's a winner. Kids today are pussified by the nanny state of America, and drastically underprepared for the way the real world works.
Source: I was a 30 year old college student
Also the school systems aren't helping with their ****ty zero tolerance laws. Did you hear the one about the father who's being threatened by CSS to have his son taken away and put into foster care for spinning a pen in school, even after he complied with their ridiculous psych evaluation requests?
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FYI, I just ignored most of what Tarzan and Krogenar said, as their discussion is hardly relative to this topic. And offensive to my special snowflake nature.
Ray, you want to know what's wrong with people today?
This Wikipedia entry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generational_theory) sums it up pretty well.
So if I don't like it now just wait 20-40 years and it'll all change. ;)
Now I know where some of those terms originated.
A fascinating theory, Snowflake! It's like astrology for an entire generation of people.
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Reminds me of this (satire) about soccer without the ball so that everyone is equal:
http://www.cbc.ca/thisisthat/blog/2013/09/03/to-ensure-every-child-wins-ontario-athletic-association-removes-ball-from-soccer/ (http://www.cbc.ca/thisisthat/blog/2013/09/03/to-ensure-every-child-wins-ontario-athletic-association-removes-ball-from-soccer/)
But in all seriousness, the "everyone is a winner" mentality is certainly far ahead here in Canada.
We had an Edmonton teacher fired because he still gave out zeros for absent assignments and skipped tests.
He ended up in court and after over two years won his case against the school board, and they've removed the policy, but still...
Original story:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-teacher-suspended-for-giving-0s-1.1131453 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-teacher-suspended-for-giving-0s-1.1131453)
Recent updates:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/edmonton-teacher-fired-for-breaking-no-zero-grading-policy-wins-appeal-1.1984000 (http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/edmonton-teacher-fired-for-breaking-no-zero-grading-policy-wins-appeal-1.1984000)
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I'm sorry, but I'm of the firm belief that while we need to protect our children from harm, we also need to make them understand how the world works. Hard work is rewarded. Laziness is not.
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Maybe it's because I did a different sport than most people, but winning was never a motivation for me. I played to have fun. Later the official motto of the league I was in was "for the love of the sport". My motivation for doing well in sports was out of respect for my opponent and for the sport in general.
So I never put much value in the medals and trophies. I remember being annoyed that they went out to 15'th place for all events, it made the awards ceremony last forever.
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ayyy lmao
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Maybe it's because I did a different sport than most people, but winning was never a motivation for me. I played to have fun. Later the official motto of the league I was in was "for the love of the sport". My motivation for doing well in sports was out of respect for my opponent and for the sport in general.
So I never put much value in the medals and trophies. I remember being annoyed that they went out to 15'th place for all events, it made the awards ceremony last forever.
what kind of sports was it ?
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Maybe it's because I did a different sport than most people, but winning was never a motivation for me. I played to have fun. Later the official motto of the league I was in was "for the love of the sport". My motivation for doing well in sports was out of respect for my opponent and for the sport in general.
So I never put much value in the medals and trophies. I remember being annoyed that they went out to 15'th place for all events, it made the awards ceremony last forever.
what kind of sports was it ?
math team?
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Maybe it's because I did a different sport than most people, but winning was never a motivation for me. I played to have fun. Later the official motto of the league I was in was "for the love of the sport". My motivation for doing well in sports was out of respect for my opponent and for the sport in general.
So I never put much value in the medals and trophies. I remember being annoyed that they went out to 15'th place for all events, it made the awards ceremony last forever.
what kind of sports was it ?
Bloodsport (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092675)
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Maybe it's because I did a different sport than most people, but winning was never a motivation for me. I played to have fun. Later the official motto of the league I was in was "for the love of the sport". My motivation for doing well in sports was out of respect for my opponent and for the sport in general.
So I never put much value in the medals and trophies. I remember being annoyed that they went out to 15'th place for all events, it made the awards ceremony last forever.
what kind of sports was it ?
Bloodsport (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092675)
[attachimg=1]
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all children 12 and below in the countries with the largest populations should compete it bloodsports 2 da deth
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we should all fence. look at what a wonderful person linkbane is and he fences!
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My son goes to public school, even though we can afford private school. He's had a mix of good-to-great teachers, and looks forward every day to new challenges in his classroom.
Sounds like you got lucky to me. :P My middle school cut funding, and of course they cut the newer teachers, regardless of what they taught. We ended up with a terrible math teacher teaching us history... :confused: That was absolutely the worst teacher experience of my life.
That's why I think that before we even start talking about funding, the discussion should be about tenure, and the fact that who keeps their job doesn't depend on anything other than how long they've been there. If that were addressed, teachers would probably try harder and maybe we wouldn't have to argue about politics.
And to address Ray's initial post here, no, all the kids should not be winners. Because that's just silly. And as others have said, a fine was not needed and the mercy rule should have just ended the game like every other mercy rule I'm aware of.
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My middle school cut funding, and of course they cut the newer teachers, regardless of what they taught. We ended up with a terrible math teacher teaching us history... :confused:
I got learnt algorithms and JAVA by a 70yo lady who couldn't turn on a computer .
If I didn't have basic algo knowledge prior to that , I might have trust her on her lessons . Got awful grades but at least I didn't unlearnt .
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If that were addressed, teachers would probably try harder and maybe we wouldn't have to argue about politics.
Try harder? Seriously?
In my opinion, teachers can't win, because the game is rigged against them. If a school district does well on mandatory standardized testing, they're slated for budget cuts, because those class sizes are obviously too small and they can obviously replicate such stellar results at a lower cost, packing students in fewer classes with fewer teachers.
If a school district does poorly in the mandatory testing Olympics, they're slated for budget cuts, because obviously they're not prioritizing their budgets appropriately, so cutting budgets will provide incentive to focus on the core STEM skills (or whatever the buzzword du jour is this time).
Meanwhile, the county/state/Federal legislators in charge of setting (translation: cutting) educational budgets send their kids to private school.
It's enough to make a guy cynical about the real reasons motivating all this slashing of school budgets. Union busting? More tax cuts for the wealthy? Reducing government payrolls because people who work for the government are evil?
Ideology always trumps idealism.
.................................................
And to Spamray's point; yes, all kids should be winners. If you want your kid to learn victory uber alles, pay for private lessons and sign them up for junior Olympics. If it's recreational league play, which all the parents are paying for, then making sure losers are sent off the field in a humiliating defeat only ensures the league will shed parents and money, and eventually fold altogether.
I was having this exact "all kids should be winners" conversation with another hockey dad last Sunday, he was telling me about a new coach who hadn't got the message we were a recreational league. The coach in question only put his strongest players in the game, for the entire game. The other four kids just sat on the bench. That's not right, the unspoken rule in Mites Hockey is that all kids get equal ice time, not just the hot shots.
Kids with natural ability or lots of private lessons are encouraged to try out for the Selects team, they're the ones that travel to other rinks for inter-league play. The rest of the 16 teams play every other team once, then we split into A group and B group, then each group plays the other 8 teams for end of season rankings. Next season the kids are shuffled and assigned to new teams so each team has a mix of birth years/skill levels. The focus is on building skills, playing fair, and having fun.
Because kids should be allowed to just be kids.
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If that were addressed, teachers would probably try harder and maybe we wouldn't have to argue about politics.
Try harder? Seriously?
Yes. Seriously.
Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just telling you my experiences and outlining the things that in my experience were the big problems with the schools that I went to. What a lot of people fail to remember is that our country is absolutely massive, and things that are a problem in one area are not a problem in another area.
Furthermore, you're really not even responding to what I said. I didn't suggest that budget cuts were the solution. I simply suggested something else that I believe is a problem and that, if addressed, makes budget cuts less bad (we lost many excellent young teachers due to budget cuts, and kept terrible older teachers).
And I know that there are loads of incredible teachers out there - I've had quite a few of them. I've also had quite a few terrible teachers that just didn't care. And why should they? They're not going to get fired for not caring. Those are the teachers, however uncommon in your area, that I was referring to. Reward good teachers, not old teachers.
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If that were addressed, teachers would probably try harder and maybe we wouldn't have to argue about politics.
Try harder? Seriously?
Yes. Seriously.
Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just telling you my experiences and outlining the things that in my experience were the big problems with the schools that I went to. What a lot of people fail to remember is that our country is absolutely massive, and things that are a problem in one area are not a problem in another area.
Furthermore, you're really not even responding to what I said. I didn't suggest that budget cuts were the solution. I simply suggested something else that I believe is a problem and that, if addressed, makes budget cuts less bad (we lost many excellent young teachers due to budget cuts, and kept terrible older teachers).
And I know that there are loads of incredible teachers out there - I've had quite a few of them. I've also had quite a few terrible teachers that just didn't care. And why should they? They're not going to get fired for not caring. Those are the teachers, however uncommon in your area, that I was referring to. Reward good teachers, not old teachers.
It sounds good as a concept, but all too often this is the sort of language used to justify cuts to every teacher's pay. The fact is that standardized testing, and teaching to the test, as so many school districts are forced to do, doesn't actually identify good teachers. No test is going to flag that teacher who keeps my son enthused about going to school every day, keeps him motivated to read at home to be better prepared for the class discussion, or dragging us to school after hours to help dig a frog pond or build a Monarch butterfly habitat garden so the kids can observe nature up close.
Honestly, what I'd like is a serious national conversation about what it would take to bring all schools up to the highest possible standard. A Manhattan Project for public schools. How much would it take to hire and retain top-flight talent as educators, pay teachers what we pay software developers or lawyers, and have schools compete on how broadly educated their students are, not on how to do more with less.
But if we can't even find funds to fix bridges in the United States, the education of our future generations doesn't stand a chance.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/opinion/paul-krugman-ideology-and-investment.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/opinion/paul-krugman-ideology-and-investment.html?_r=0)
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That's why I think that before we even start talking about funding, the discussion should be about tenure, and the fact that who keeps their job doesn't depend on anything other than how long they've been there. If that were addressed, teachers would probably try harder and maybe we wouldn't have to argue about politics.
I agree. Tenure was designed for higher education so that professors could have political views without fear of reprisals -- not as a way to secure a sinecure. As things stand now, a teacher has to rape students on videotape in order to get fired in a timely fashion. (Rubber Rooms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rubber_Room))
When I was in high school a teacher rigged his tests so that students would almost all pass. He actually italicized the correct answers on a multiple choice exam. When it was discovered, he called in the union to protect him, and it took over a year for him to be removed from the school. My principal at the time, his hands tied, put this teacher in the hall as a hall monitor. And the lazy bastard sat there for over a year, reading The New York Times all day. My first thought was: "Does this guy have any sense of self-respect at all?" Would I stay on a job where I clearly wasn't wanted, and when I was clearly caught doing something wrong?
I had great teachers, too. Ironically, New York State teacher's unions reject the concept (http://nypost.com/2014/01/09/cuomo-wants-to-pay-best-teachers-more/) of 'merit pay' for exceptional teachers.
But again, and again, the only possible solution is more money, more teachers, more power for the unions.
And to address Ray's initial post here, no, all the kids should not be winners. Because that's just silly. And as others have said, a fine was not needed and the mercy rule should have just ended the game like every other mercy rule I'm aware of.
Agreed. Being totally destroyed on the field is not necessary for children. We have The Jets for that.
EDIT:
Honestly, what I'd like is a serious national conversation about what it would take to bring all schools up to the highest possible standard. A Manhattan Project for public schools. How much would it take to hire and retain top-flight talent as educators, pay teachers what we pay software developers or lawyers, and have schools compete on how broadly educated their students are, not on how to do more with less.
What you're describing is called a 'market'. I'd love to see privately run schools fighting over good teachers, and using benefits packages, salaries, etc. as incentives. And I'd love to see ****ty, phone-it-in teachers get unceremoniously ****-canned. Then education would start to improve. I'd love to see schools of all kinds, perhaps some with a focus -- music, science, art, theater, etc. Then you could send each of your children to the school that best suits their interests and/or talents. That would be something.
But the first step is getting rid of the teacher's unions, unfortunately.
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That's why I think that before we even start talking about funding, the discussion should be about tenure, and the fact that who keeps their job doesn't depend on anything other than how long they've been there. If that were addressed, teachers would probably try harder and maybe we wouldn't have to argue about politics.
I agree. Tenure was designed for higher education so that professors could have political views without fear of reprisals -- not as a way to secure a sinecure. As things stand now, a teacher has to rape students on videotape in order to get fired in a timely fashion. (Rubber Rooms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rubber_Room))
When I was in high school a teacher rigged his tests so that students would almost all pass. He actually italicized the correct answers on a multiple choice exam. When it was discovered, he called in the union to protect him, and it took over a year for him to be removed from the school. My principal at the time, his hands tied, put this teacher in the hall as a hall monitor. And the lazy bastard sat there for over a year, reading The New York Times all day. My first thought was: "Does this guy have any sense of self-respect at all?" Would I stay on a job where I clearly wasn't wanted, and when I was clearly caught doing something wrong?
I had great teachers, too. Ironically, New York State teacher's unions reject the concept (http://nypost.com/2014/01/09/cuomo-wants-to-pay-best-teachers-more/) of 'merit pay' for exceptional teachers.
But again, and again, the only possible solution is more money, more teachers, more power for the unions.
And to address Ray's initial post here, no, all the kids should not be winners. Because that's just silly. And as others have said, a fine was not needed and the mercy rule should have just ended the game like every other mercy rule I'm aware of.
Agreed. Being totally destroyed on the field is not necessary for children. We have The Jets for that.
More money is the solution to the education problem.. Absolutely, YES..
Teachers make nothing, and their job is to deal with the worst bunch of people on earth, kids, I'm not saying it's the kid's fault, it's just how humans are. ..
However, is more education necessary better for the country, IF we're to assume the country must remain an independent power..
Do you think it's easy to make smart people go to war.. join the army.. or work hard for little pay..
This is a tough choice... and time and time again.. empires fall because occupational forces becomes impossibly expensive.. look at iraq.. being bankrupt and not getting the damn oil is the reason we're out of there...
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Teachers make nothing
I would say this depends on location.
AND your definition of nothing. What would you consider to be decent teacher pay?
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Teachers make nothing
I would say this depends on location.
AND your definition of nothing. What would you consider to be decent teacher pay?
to deal with animals that you emotionally abuse and scar you ?...
More than they're getting now..
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Teachers make nothing
I would say this depends on location.
AND your definition of nothing. What would you consider to be decent teacher pay?
to deal with animals that you emotionally abuse and scar you ?...
More than they're getting now..
While I can agree you couldn't pay me enough to be a school teacher, looking at our local districts pay database from 2010 the average pay was ~$60K.
Perhaps I'm out of touch but would most people not consider $60K/yr decent pay?? Especially for a job where you get 3 months off in the summer time?
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What you're describing is called a 'market'. I'd love to see privately run schools fighting over good teachers, and using benefits packages, salaries, etc. as incentives. And I'd love to see ****ty, phone-it-in teachers get unceremoniously ****-canned. Then education would start to improve. I'd love to see schools of all kinds, perhaps some with a focus -- music, science, art, theater, etc. Then you could send each of your children to the school that best suits their interests and/or talents. That would be something.
No, I'm not describing a "market." I'm describing a well-funded public school system.
But the first step is getting rid of the teacher's unions, unfortunately.
And that's your real motive. Not better education for children, just union-bashing like you've done in so many other threads here.
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While I can agree you couldn't pay me enough to be a school teacher, looking at our local districts pay database from 2010 the average pay was ~$60K.
Perhaps I'm out of touch but would most people not consider $60K/yr decent pay?? Especially for a job where you get 3 months off in the summer time?
Factor in almost perfect job security, health benefits, and a pension Ray. Then how does it seem? Oh, and they can take summers off, or work, their choice. I have no problem with teacher's being well paid -- the work they do is crucial -- but the unions insist on zero accountability, and no other option to solve problems aside from more teachers and more money.
But the first step is getting rid of the teacher's unions, unfortunately.
And that's your real motive. Not better education for children, just union-bashing like you've done in so many other threads here.
Yes, my real motive is to annihilate teacher's unions (not teachers, just the unions) because they're hurting children. They don't give a damn about children or their education, only power. Americans must break the teacher's unions monopolistic stranglehold on education. A case in point -- Harlem Success Academy Charter Schools (http://successacademies.org/). Run by a woman named Eva Moskowitz, these schools have improved the educations of the most at-risk children in NYC. Their success rates with children are nearly inverse to the success rate for public schools. And naturally, the UFT (United Federation of Teachers) hound them at every turn.
Why? Because mediocrity is the natural enemy of success. If people see great alternatives to public schools, that chips away at the unions' power, and they can't have that. So they're doing everything in their power to stop the success.
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Teachers make nothing
I would say this depends on location.
AND your definition of nothing. What would you consider to be decent teacher pay?
to deal with animals that you emotionally abuse and scar you ?...
More than they're getting now..
While I can agree you couldn't pay me enough to be a school teacher, looking at our local districts pay database from 2010 the average pay was ~$60K.
Perhaps I'm out of touch but would most people not consider $60K/yr decent pay?? Especially for a job where you get 3 months off in the summer time?
depends where you live
60k in NYC is prob considered avg middle class, but by no means "comfortable"
60k in like Montana is prob upper middle class.
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if all kids were winners we wouldnt have a keyboard forum
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Up through elementary ages, having no score keeping is fine. It's about an activity, learning how things work, it's rules, socialization and so on. I don't agree with the all are same/equal there though as it only breeds bad ideas and sense of entitlement at a young age. But it needs to shift over to competitive basis eventually once a certain age is reached. Then it's time to learn life isn't fair, that you have to actually work at something to improve skills, learn from failure and more.
As far as the US education system, it's been declining by design. It's all about controlling the population. If people get too intelligent it becomes a huge problem for those in power. They also want to keep that massive disparity in the income divide going.
The biggest problem with education in my view is the idea of grade levels. It's why I hated traditional school so much. If it wasn't for alternative school where I was able to complete courses on my own very quick pace I wouldn't have even graduated.
People learn things in different ways, at different paces. It would be much better to have classes based on aptitude than age group... at least for those of us that would operate better that way.
I like the US educational system a lot for that very reason... in more ways than one.
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if all kids were winners we wouldnt have a keyboard forum
wow.. way to self-depreciate. hahahaha
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While I can agree you couldn't pay me enough to be a school teacher, looking at our local districts pay database from 2010 the average pay was ~$60K.
Perhaps I'm out of touch but would most people not consider $60K/yr decent pay?? Especially for a job where you get 3 months off in the summer time?
Factor in almost perfect job security, health benefits, and a pension Ray. Then how does it seem? Oh, and they can take summers off, or work, their choice. I have no problem with teacher's being well paid -- the work they do is crucial -- but the unions insist on zero accountability, and no other option to solve problems aside from more teachers and more money.
But the first step is getting rid of the teacher's unions, unfortunately.
And that's your real motive. Not better education for children, just union-bashing like you've done in so many other threads here.
Yes, my real motive is to annihilate teacher's unions (not teachers, just the unions) because they're hurting children. They don't give a damn about children or their education, only power. Americans must break the teacher's unions monopolistic stranglehold on education. A case in point -- Harlem Success Academy Charter Schools (http://successacademies.org/). Run by a woman named Eva Moskowitz, these schools have improved the educations of the most at-risk children in NYC. Their success rates with children are nearly inverse to the success rate for public schools. And naturally, the UFT (United Federation of Teachers) hound them at every turn.
Why? Because mediocrity is the natural enemy of success. If people see great alternatives to public schools, that chips away at the unions' power, and they can't have that. So they're doing everything in their power to stop the success.
You make it seem like the average american can afford to pay for this stuff.. LOLOL
The teachers union is there to create teachers AT ALL.. it's NOT a good job.. typically only the lowest line of graduates enter k-12 teaching..
I'm not saying it's not important, that's just the nature of field.
being a teacher is like being a parent. Parenting is statistically among people's LEAST favorite things to do..
You always hear moms and dads tell you about how their kids make them happy.. hahaha.. they're lying through their teeth to cover up their misery..
A teacher is like parents ++... by far one of the worst jobs.. because you work with the ****tiest people... KIDS...
Is it possible to make it better, sure, is it possible to be motivated, sure, but that takes fortitude that is highly paid for ELSEWHERE..
and so who's left to babysit.. hahaha we already know this.
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And there is no more dodge ball.
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And there is no more dodge ball.
they stopped letting us play that at my school
we had kick ball though, but obviously that's not the same.
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when i was in elementary school we used to have "field day".
The school was split up into 3 different teams based on the school colors (red/black/white) from Kindergarten to 5th grade.
There'd be tug of war, relay races, tire jumping, monkey bar race, etc. Winners would earn points for the team, the winning team would get a ribbon or whatever.
My brother entered the same elementary school 7 years later and they took out the point system and it was just a sports event day.
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when i was in elementary school we used to have "field day".
The school was split up into 3 different teams based on the school colors (red/black/white) from Kindergarten to 5th grade.
There'd be tug of war, relay races, tire jumping, monkey bar race, etc. Winners would earn points for the team, the winning team would get a ribbon or whatever.
My brother entered the same elementary school 7 years later and they took out the point system and it was just a sports event day.
Yeah! Same thing at my school. In first grade we had competitions and it was awesome. By fifth grade, we got participation ribbons and they took out all the cool stuff like the egg toss. :(
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when i was in elementary school we used to have "field day".
The school was split up into 3 different teams based on the school colors (red/black/white) from Kindergarten to 5th grade.
There'd be tug of war, relay races, tire jumping, monkey bar race, etc. Winners would earn points for the team, the winning team would get a ribbon or whatever.
My brother entered the same elementary school 7 years later and they took out the point system and it was just a sports event day.
Yeah! Same thing at my school. In first grade we had competitions and it was awesome. By fifth grade, we got participation ribbons and they took out all the cool stuff like the egg toss. :(
Man when I was in fifth grade they still paddled kids and at our field day we threw raw eggs, dug through a mountain of flower looking for pennies and shot bows and arrows.
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when i was in elementary school we used to have "field day".
The school was split up into 3 different teams based on the school colors (red/black/white) from Kindergarten to 5th grade.
There'd be tug of war, relay races, tire jumping, monkey bar race, etc. Winners would earn points for the team, the winning team would get a ribbon or whatever.
My brother entered the same elementary school 7 years later and they took out the point system and it was just a sports event day.
Yeah! Same thing at my school. In first grade we had competitions and it was awesome. By fifth grade, we got participation ribbons and they took out all the cool stuff like the egg toss. :(
Man when I was in fifth grade they still paddled kids and at our field day we threw raw eggs, dug through a mountain of flower looking for pennies and shot bows and arrows.
when i was in elementary school we used to have "field day".
The school was split up into 3 different teams based on the school colors (red/black/white) from Kindergarten to 5th grade.
There'd be tug of war, relay races, tire jumping, monkey bar race, etc. Winners would earn points for the team, the winning team would get a ribbon or whatever.
My brother entered the same elementary school 7 years later and they took out the point system and it was just a sports event day.
Yeah! Same thing at my school. In first grade we had competitions and it was awesome. By fifth grade, we got participation ribbons and they took out all the cool stuff like the egg toss. :(
And neither of you is a sociopath? Amazing! When I was in the Boy Scouts we'd have a thing called 'The Klondike Derby' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klondike_derby) -- we'd build dogsleds out of wood, and each local troop would have to pull the sled around to different activity areas of a snowy college campus. There'd be orienteering, fire-building, etc. -- all contests of skill. We'd put the smallest kid in the troop in the sled, do some of the activities, and then it would devolve into ramming the sleds into one another (terrified that poor kid on the inside) for kicks.
It took Progressives to turn childhood (especially for boys) into one big non-competitive flower-arranging contest.
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i dodged bullets in elementary. bunch of pussies playing with dirt and flowers
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i dodged bullets in elementary. bunch of pussies playing with dirt and lowers
So you're saying you were the winner against bullets? See, all kids are winners.
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i dodged bullets in elementary. bunch of pussies playing with dirt and lowers
So you're saying you were the winner against bullets? See, all kids are winners.
not all of us. rip lil smiley, lil joker, el smiling joker and brad.
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Our school's field day with just a carnival coming and setting up in the kickball field