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geekhack Marketplace => Great Finds => Topic started by: Manyak on Mon, 13 July 2009, 00:08:36

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Manyak on Mon, 13 July 2009, 00:08:36

Just in case anyone has some interest in modding it to be AT compatible.

http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Vintage-Clicky-Keyboard-Square-Metal-Logo-PN5640991_W0QQitemZ200256089094QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2ea0316c06&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A1|66%3A2|39%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

Judging by it's size I'd say it puts the Model M to shame, at least in terms of durability.

(http://www.recycledgoods.com/Images/s_p_17096_1.jpg)

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Mercen_505 on Mon, 13 July 2009, 06:20:12

Oooh... those don't come around very often. The blue switch on the top is beckoning me...

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Hak Foo on Mon, 13 July 2009, 19:54:16

The layout is just terrifying.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Mon, 13 July 2009, 20:10:20

Sandy has a pic on his site of one of those disassembled, the innards seem to be identical to that of the Model F - same capacitive contacts, same buckling spring assemblies... Obviously the Model F was the name they gave to their PC-specific capacitive BS keyboards.

I'd love to know what all the Models A, B, D, E and G-L were :) I assume some were the keyboards of the 3278 and that other terminal of theirs whose name escapes me. The Displaywriter and Datamaster too...

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: maxlugar on Wed, 05 August 2009, 03:51:36

Quote from: Manyak;102326

Just in case anyone has some interest in modding it to be AT compatible.

http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Vintage-Clicky-Keyboard-Square-Metal-Logo-PN5640991_W0QQitemZ200256089094QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2ea0316c06&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A1|66%3A2|39%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

Show Image

(http://www.recycledgoods.com/Images/s_p_17096_1.jpg)

The probability of being able to convert the Model C to work with any modern computer is slim to none.

It takes a fair amount of dedicated elctronics to convert the scan codes and enable 2-way communication for a PC/XT keyboard to work with an AT or PS2 computer.  Not to mention the USB converter required to work with a modern Windows machine.

It might be nice to press the Model C keys though...

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 05 August 2009, 04:04:47

Quote from: maxlugar;107073

The probability of being able to convert the Model C to work with any modern computer is slim to none.

kbdbabel.org has these conversions available:

IBM PC/XT ---> PS2
IBM 3104 ---> PS2
IBM 3151-3153/3179/318x/319x/34xx ---> PS2

in alpha:

IBM 5291-2 ---> PS2

in development:

IBM RT
IBM 3178
IBM 5251 Terminal Keyboard (parallel interface)

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 05 August 2009, 05:49:42

What's the difference between the C2 and C4? Is that manual on the net?

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 05 August 2009, 07:12:05

Is there also a C3 variant?

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 05 August 2009, 07:53:18

Interesting stuff. I'd like to see that manual if you get the chance to upload it.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 05 August 2009, 14:46:57

Quote from: maxlugar;107073

It takes a fair amount of dedicated elctronics to convert the scan codes and enable 2-way communication for a PC/XT keyboard to work with an AT or PS2 computer.  Not to mention the USB converter required to work with a modern Windows machine.

It might be nice to press the Model C keys though...

It's even worse - it's a 3178 protocol keyboard as opposed to XT. Im sure it could be converted, but would probably require more effort than the XT board.

Feel wise... There's a disassembled pic on Sandy's page. Looks just like a Model F. Probably will feel just like an XT F.

Oh, and Webwit, does the manual mention what that blue switch does?

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 05 August 2009, 15:42:12

I was thinking it was something like that, but what is that button with the lock icon that's located where one would expect to find a caps lock?

Sorry for the constant stream of questions, just intrigued by this old beast.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 05 August 2009, 16:31:58

Ah yeah, I get it now.

The click thing is weird. I had read that old IBM terminal keyboards had a solenoid in them to make a click noise when a key was pressed. I'm sure that this was useful in the old linear boards they had, but for BS boards it seems excessive. Perhaps a concession to those familiar with the old designs?

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: keyb_gr on Wed, 05 August 2009, 16:56:17

Quote from: webwit;107298

This is probably why the M has a speaker grill. It is not for the M, but for early terminal board versions of the M.

The RS/6000 boards had a speaker throughout.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 05 August 2009, 19:10:14

Quote from: webwit;107267

Feels like an F XT, slightly lighter that the F AT I have (or is it an illusion?), but is in build closer to the F AT, with a flimsy plastic bottom. However, it is from '83 (different from the ebay pictures, still 9 of 10 left), while my F XT is from '84. It suggests the difference in feel between XT and AT is not in the better build of the XT.

Sandy claims it weighs 3kg. He also claims that the AT version is heavier than the XT, although somebody recently disputed that figure. It is possible that it's heavier but it doesn't feel so heavy because it's bigger and the weight is distributed over a larger area? I know that's why I think a Filco is heavier than a Dell AT, even though it's the other way around.

Quote

The RS/6000 boards had a speaker throughout.

So did the Quiet Touch keyboards weirdy enough (the greased ones, not the rubber domes)

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 05 August 2009, 19:55:28

I tried this out for myself. I weighed it on my bathroom scales (or to be exact, I weighed myself, and then I weighed myself holding the keyboard) Did it three times and got a weight of 2.8Kg for the keyboard and it's cable - exactly the same figure that Sandy gives for the PC/AT Model F.

By means of comparison - the same test gave a weight of exactly 2Kg for a 1993-vintage 1391406 without it's cable.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: maxlugar on Thu, 06 August 2009, 14:42:41

Quote from: ch_123;107342

I tried this out for myself. I weighed it on my bathroom scales (or to be exact, I weighed myself, and then I weighed myself holding the keyboard) Did it three times and got a weight of 2.8Kg for the keyboard and it's cable - exactly the same figure that Sandy gives for the PC/AT Model F.

By means of comparison - the same test gave a weight of exactly 2Kg for a 1993-vintage 1391406 without it's cable.

Both the 83-key Model F and 84-key PC AT keyboards were weighed on a postage scale and the results posted in a different thread.  Here they are again:

"I also weighed both to see validate ch_123's premise. The results:

Model F 83-key
5.75 pounds without the cord on the scale
5.95 pounds with the cord on the scale

PC AT 84-key
5.30 pounds without the cord
5.85 pound with the cord.

So it wasn't just an illusion. The 83-key Model F is heavier even though it has a slightly smaller footprint. The 0.45 pound differential is over 7 ounces. You Europeans can do the conversion to kg. Even with the longer coiled cord included, the PC AT is still 0.10 pounds lighter than the original Model F."

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 06 August 2009, 15:03:02

Quote from: ch_123;107342

or to be exact, I weighed myself, and then I weighed myself holding the keyboard

Correct usage of bathroom scales for smaller weights.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: maxlugar on Thu, 06 August 2009, 15:03:33

Quote from: webwit;107575

Hmm.. need better scale.

Hey man, it's good enough for the United States Postal Service...although I'm not sure if that guarantees that it's accurate

However, I can assure you it's more accurate than a bathroom scale

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 06 August 2009, 16:07:45

I didn't expect a bathroom scales to be 100% accurate, but as I said, I've calibrated the scale with a Model M. With cable, and using that system, the scale gives a weight of 2.2Kg, which is what is expected of a Model M of that type and vintage. There's also the fact that Sandy's website gives the same weight. Now, unless Sandy measured his Model F using the exact same type of scales as I did, the likelihood that i'd get the same weight as he did is pretty slim. I'm going to stand by my figures for now.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 06 August 2009, 16:16:15

Quote from: ripster;107635

Depends on the scale I guess. I just took a 5 lb weight upstairs and the method gave me a result a full pound off. These digital scales can deceive you with false accuracy

Maybe your 5lb. weight is mislabeled.  I think you need to do more tests.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: maxlugar on Thu, 06 August 2009, 16:21:21

Quote from: ripster;107637

I thought there was a Head Shop on every corner of Amsterdam?  I like the name of this one, The Flying Dutchman (http://www.flyingdutchmen.com/)!

Webwit should really be called the "Dutch Damager" for his scathing sense of humor

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: maxlugar on Thu, 06 August 2009, 16:28:18

Quote from: webwit;107641

Well I have one with 0.05g accuracy but that only goes to 250g. The one I ordered can have a few kg and has a 0.5g accuracy. Both can be calibrated and I have certified calibration weights. That should put an end to it.

Yeah, well I want to see the official stamped and notarized calibration certs from the EU.  Then and only then will I concede that the 83-key Model F is lighter (or the same weight) compared to the 84-key PC AT keyboard.

(And don't even try and forge the certs) :lie:

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Mercen_505 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 11:41:03

There are still 8 of these available. If you make an offer, you can get it for considerably less than the ~90 USD that is the "Buy it now" price.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 26 August 2009, 11:42:19

Quote from: Mercen_505;112066

There are still 8 of these available. If you make an offer, you can get it for considerably less than the ~90 USD that is the "Buy it now" price.

But what would you do with it?

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 13:56:25

Quote from: Mercen_505;112066

There are still 8 of these available. If you make an offer, you can get it for considerably less than the ~90 USD that is the "Buy it now" price.

The C2 model is available for much less here. (http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-5640987-3178-C2-0-Keyboard-ASM_W0QQitemZ200256086957QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea03163ad&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A1|66%3A2|39%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50)

Quote

But what would you do with it?

Experimentation and modding purposes. They're basically the same thing as a Model F, except cheaper, because there's probably not that many people around who still use 3178s.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Mercen_505 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 14:54:34

Quote

But what would you do with it?

It goes in the collection ;)

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Wed, 26 August 2009, 15:10:37

Quote from: webwit;107076

The empty part at the right is were the numpad goes on the C2-C4 models. Ironically, the manual calls the C1 a "75-key data-entry keyboard" and the C2-C4 a "87-key typewriter keyboard".

IIRC: the empty area on the right was for the PF key pad.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 15:32:46

Yep, see the C2 model I linked above.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Wed, 26 August 2009, 17:07:43

Ass-ton of geek cred there...

Am I correct in my understanding that these are irrevocably incompatible with modern equipment..?

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 17:20:47

I think the guy at Kbdbabel has some sort of conversion project in development for the really old IBM terminal keyboards, but I'm not sure whether it will work with these particular models, or whether it will come to anything at all.

Really what I'd love is an old 3278 keyboard from the late 70s. Those things were beasts.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Wed, 26 August 2009, 17:50:03

Quote from: ch_123;112163

Really what I'd love is an old 3278 keyboard from the late 70s. Those things were beasts.

Like this: http://www.recycledgoods.com/7741_IBM_1742705_Keyboard%20for%203278%20Terminal.html
(http://www.recycledgoods.com/zoom_s_p_7741_1.jpg.ashx)

Good lord, they were a nightmare!  Almost as heavy as a manual typewriter, and the keys went down with a meaty 'clunk'. Barely touch-typeable. I was happy-happy to move to the 3179 when they started appearing.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 18:12:34

Ah, interesting to hear from someone who had first hand experience with one. Still intrigued by the original BS keyboards, though I wouldn't bother buying one off eBay because of the weight and associated shipping costs. Ideally one will appear in a skip one day =P

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Wed, 26 August 2009, 18:23:01

Quote from: ch_123;112171

Ah, interesting to hear from someone who had first hand experience with one.

:lol:  There isn't a lot of IBM mainframe equipment from the 70s forward that I haven't had my hands on.  :cool:  Plenty of other IBM-compatible equipment as well.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Thu, 27 August 2009, 05:23:13

Quote from: Shawn Stanford;112174

:lol:  There isn't a lot of IBM mainframe equipment from the 70s forward that I haven't had my hands on.  :cool:  Plenty of other IBM-compatible equipment as well.

Mhmm. Any 5251 terminals? Where they also buckling spring? There was a discussion a while back where someone was trying to figure out what the earliest BS keyboard was, and it was between the 5251's keyboard and the 3278s.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Thu, 27 August 2009, 06:42:22

Quote from: ch_123;112249

Mhmm. Any 5251 terminals? Where they also buckling spring? There was a discussion a while back where someone was trying to figure out what the earliest BS keyboard was, and it was between the 5251's keyboard and the 3278s.

According to an article I found on Google, the 5251 was a System/34 terminal. Here's a picture of one from the article:
(http://www.corestore.org/5251-1sm.jpg)
I never used S/34, although I did use Series/1 and plenty of 3270 terminals from that period. The keyboard in that picture looks a lot like the keyboards from the Series/1 and 3270 terminals of the era. I would expect it to work the same: with a heavy push and a hearty 'thunk'. If those thing used buckling springs, they were automotive...

Of course, someone could ping the owner of this site (http://www.corestore.org/index.htm) and ask him to take apart that terminal.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Moparx on Thu, 27 August 2009, 08:45:12

Picked one up with an offer of $27.
Another item for my keyboard collection .:)

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 28 August 2009, 11:24:56

They cut the price in half on these. The C2 model with extra keys is cheaper though, oddly enough.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Mercen_505 on Tue, 01 September 2009, 19:05:39

I got my model C board in the mail today.... quite an odd keyboard indeed. The board is pretty odd in that the keycaps look brand new, yet the case and board itself are in pretty poor shape. I just opened it up to take a peek inside, but I probably won't do any cleaning for a few weeks. I still have 3-4 other boards that need cleaning as well, including my AT model F. Interestingly, the label on the backplate lists it as a model F. The keys have a sturdy and consistent feel somewhere in between the rock solid Model F (XT) and the not nearly so nice Model F (AT).


Also, I bought one of these, for the lulz. It was cheap enough to warrant a closer look ;)

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/_Sirocco/Fluke1720A.jpg)

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 02 September 2009, 04:32:21

Quote from: Mercen_505;113812

nterestingly, the label on the backplate lists it as a model F.

This doesnt surprise me at all... pics?

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Mercen_505 on Wed, 02 September 2009, 06:18:49

Quote

Oh yeah baby, Model C all the way. Did you get the C1 or C2?

I'm assuming it's a C1. It looks like the one in the pic toward the top of the thread. I really do enjoy the action on the keys... very pleasant.  I need to find enough time to post the 8 hojillion pics I've taken on my keyboards, but I've got a software project I'm trying to finish and it's eating my lunch, as we say around these parts  ^_^

Also, I'm lazy.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Moparx on Wed, 02 September 2009, 13:55:35

I received mine today.

(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7134/99848315.jpg)
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9380/50358236.jpg)
(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3163/22044372.jpg)

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Moparx on Wed, 02 September 2009, 14:00:24

Quote from: webwit;114038

Yours says MOD M..

Yeah. No idea why though.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Moparx on Wed, 02 September 2009, 14:26:36

A few internal shots:
(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5980/73573142.jpg)

(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1580/25391058.jpg)

I'll be having some cleaning to do this weekend.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Wed, 02 September 2009, 14:27:54

They key layout on that thing is like nothing I've ever used. That is a weird-ass layout...

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 02 September 2009, 14:38:06

Quote from: webwit;114052

That looks more familiar. With the big ass capacitor or whatever it is separated from the rest.

I think it's an inductor, the opposite of a capacitor.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Mercen_505 on Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:05:18

Ah, I see the internals of your board are as dirty as mine. Mine also has the holes in the chassis where the manual fits.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 02 September 2009, 15:12:49

A Model M Model C? Does it have membrane BS or capactive BS?

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Moparx on Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:19:15

Quote from: ch_123;114070

A Model M Model C? Does it have membrane BS or capactive BS?

It is capacitive.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Mercen_505 on Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:29:24

Quote

A Model M Model C?

I wonder if that is a clerical error? Mine says Mod C1.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Mercen_505 on Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:41:25

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/_Sirocco/model_c_1.jpg)

Makes sense, then.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:45:40

Quote from: webwit;114134

I think by 1989 they called all their bs keyboards Model M, even if a prior design was not changed.

No, I've seen Model F terminal keyboards dated 1992.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Mercen_505 on Wed, 02 September 2009, 17:49:20

Quote

No, I've seen Model F terminal keyboards dated 1992.

I think we're talking about two different things...

The sticker on the chassis of my Model C1 (see my previous post) shows it to be a model C1. But the sticker on the back of the metal baseplate inside the keyboard calls that part a Model F.

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/_Sirocco/Model_c_2.jpg)

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Moparx on Wed, 02 September 2009, 18:38:08

Quote from: Mercen_505;114144

The sticker on the chassis of my Model C1 (see my previous post) shows it to be a model C1. But the sticker on the back of the metal baseplate inside the keyboard calls that part a Model F.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/_Sirocco/Model_c_2.jpg

Here is the sticker on my metal baseplate:
(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4476/42947255.jpg)

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 02 September 2009, 19:00:53

Ok, so we have a Model F Model C, a Model M Model C, oh, and bare in mind - they may be Model Cs, they could 'Modification C' or the like...

I have a theory on this one, but I'd need to know whether or not the "Model M Model C" is a Model M style design, or a Model F one.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 05 September 2009, 09:51:50

Oh right, that makes much more sense. So these are Model Fs (or Ms) for the 3178 family of terminals. Mystery solved then.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: microsoft windows on Sun, 06 September 2009, 06:09:17

That sounds like a good explanation.

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 06 September 2009, 14:48:14

Quote from: timw4mail;114056

I think it's an inductor, the opposite of a capacitor.

Could it be a solenoid - that can be set up to click when you press a key?

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Fri, 11 September 2009, 08:47:19

Quote from: webwit;116947

Of course this comment just made me had to have it.
And guess what? LIES! Plain lies! :) This is the lighest most delicious clicky keyboard I now have. It beats the F both in feel and sound. Also it has TWO secret compartments and very cupped keys (the F and J supercupped), double shot. Man, the idea that normal modern keyboards could have this feel but don't, it is insane.

Really? Awesome! I distinctly remember those being terrible keyboards. I could have been using older models, or I may have them confused with another manufacturer. The place was a mix of variously-aged IBM equipment and a few other manufacturers (Telex? Memorex?), all of it very well used.

So, what are your plans for getting its delicious clickiness hooked up to a piece of modern computing equipment..?

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: JBert on Fri, 11 September 2009, 08:47:29

Pictures, or it didn't happen. :-)

By the way, got any results for a ripometer test on that one?

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 11 September 2009, 09:07:44

Quote from: webwit;116947

Of course this comment just made me had to have it.

And guess what? LIES! Plain lies! :)

This is the lighest most delicious clicky keyboard I now have. It beats the F both in feel and sound.

Also it has TWO secret compartments and very cupped keys (the F and J supercupped), double shot.

Man, the idea that normal modern keyboards could have this feel but don't, it is insane.

I demand pictures of the insides! Do NOT make me come over there!

Oh btw, are the keycaps compatible with the F/M? Also, are the keys to either side of the spacebar (that look like they are lower down than the rest of keys) any different in terms of feel to the rest?

Title: IBM Model C
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Fri, 11 September 2009, 11:54:24

Quote from: ripster;116957

Sounds like a great find. I like the new name for scooped F's and J's:  "SuperCupped".   This is in contrast of course to "Nubile Nubs".

I'll hold out for something nubile and supercupped...

Like a hot gymnast:
(http://live.psu.edu/slnoflash2/userpics/10004/normal_Sacramone01.jpg)