Post by: mouse.the.lucky.dog on Tue, 18 November 2014, 04:04:45
1) In terms of durability how are they holding up after six months of use?
2) After six months of use, how do they feel?
Post by: Jixr on Tue, 18 November 2014, 10:55:47
( fun fact, nearly everything you own was made by cheap asian labor )
I have a keyboard with browns, feel just fine, work just fine, no problems.
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 18 November 2014, 12:15:01
Post by: Jixr on Tue, 18 November 2014, 13:25:39
Post by: katushkin on Tue, 18 November 2014, 14:00:27
Right, I've had a Keycool 87 with Kailh browns for a while, and have racked up about 100K keystrokes.
I've had no pressure changes, no dodgy stems, strange noises or anything like that. I almost prefer them to Cherry Browns.
Post by: mouse.the.lucky.dog on Tue, 18 November 2014, 14:45:45
THEY ARE SO GOOD
Right, I've had a Keycool 87 with Kailh browns for a while, and have racked up about 100K keystrokes.
Looking around one thing I've seen mentioned is that there seems to be a lot of variance in feel in key on a single board. Have you found that to be the case?
Post by: katushkin on Tue, 18 November 2014, 14:57:10
THEY ARE SO GOOD
Right, I've had a Keycool 87 with Kailh browns for a while, and have racked up about 100K keystrokes.
Looking around one thing I've seen mentioned is that there seems to be a lot of variance in feel in key on a single board. Have you found that to be the case?
Nothing of the sort. Certainly not on the letters or the modifiers that you normally press a lot while typing.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 November 2014, 14:59:32
Looking around one thing I've seen mentioned is that there seems to be a lot of variance in feel in key on a single board. Have you found that to be the case?
The Nixeus Moda I had had dodgy modifiers which caused the keyfeel to be off on those switches. I think there were a few other issues on that board but overall, it wasn't too bad. The review of that board is in my signature or profile and has Kailh Brown switches. I haven't logged enough time on it to offer an opinion on the OP.
Post by: Jixr on Tue, 18 November 2014, 15:50:18
Looking around one thing I've seen mentioned is that there seems to be a lot of variance in feel in key on a single board. Have you found that to be the case?
The Nixeus Moda I had had dodgy modifiers which caused the keyfeel to be off on those switches. I think there were a few other issues on that board but overall, it wasn't too bad. The review of that board is in my signature or profile and has Kailh Brown switches. I haven't logged enough time on it to offer an opinion on the OP.
Did they mail you one too? I got one from them, hate the thing, my right shift key broke and you cant replace it.
Post by: Hyde on Tue, 18 November 2014, 16:07:34
They feel less wobbly and smooth.
Though that's like 5 minutes of testing so I could be wrong but first impressions are good. :thumb:
To be honest I didn't have faith initially also but the results surprised me.
Post by: davkol on Tue, 18 November 2014, 17:20:55
they are fine, people just hate because stuff made in china must be junk.Or perhaps people aren't in favor of plagiarism, cutting costs or, say, certain externalities.
( fun factoid, nearly everything you own was made by cheap asian labor )FTFY
Post by: Jixr on Tue, 18 November 2014, 18:57:15
Post by: dante on Tue, 18 November 2014, 19:00:39
Post by: heedpantsnow on Tue, 18 November 2014, 22:04:37
its not plagerism, the copyright expired, and now anyone can use the tech. learn how it works.
Not legally. But it is still taking someone else's design and profiting from it. It's the Chinese way.
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 18 November 2014, 22:14:43
Not legally. But it is still taking someone else's design and profiting from it. It's the Chinese way.Oh give me a break. It’s the human way.
There’s nothing unethical about copying 30-year-old out-of-patent devices. Such copying is one of the biggest sources of technological and economic progress in the world, and everyone does it all the time.
It would be wonderful if the material standard of living everywhere in the world could be improved to the point that labor-intensive products cost roughly the same to produce anywhere in the world, but that’s not going to happen any time soon and it’s not worth complaining about.
The biggest difference between Chinese and US/European manufacturing at this point in many cases isn’t even the cheaper labor or lax environmental standards; instead, the Chinese supply chain is much more condensed and efficient, and there is an amazing scale and concentration of manufacturing expertise and experience in some parts of China. It’s really quite an achievement, and just throwing out racist stereotypes about “the Chinese way” being to “profit from someone else’s design” is ignorant and wrongheaded.
(Which isn’t to say there isn’t also plenty to criticize about Chinese labor practices, government policies, etc., but it needs to be done with understanding and nuance.)
Cherry produces products today that are slightly inferior to their product from 20 years ago, and they haven’t really done any substantial innovation in that timeframe either. They have persistent supply issues that make keyboard manufacturers go through hell to source switches, and dramatically delay shipments.
If Kaihua, Gateron, et al. want to make a slightly tweaked version of a long-out-of-patent part available for a fraction of the price, I say that’s great: it can only expand the market for mechanical keyboards and get more people typing on something healthier and more efficient than a rubber dome. Maybe it’ll even be the kick in the pants Cherry needs to start doing some real innovation again.
Post by: Coreda on Tue, 18 November 2014, 22:38:47
Post by: jonathanyu on Tue, 18 November 2014, 22:50:39
Post by: heedpantsnow on Wed, 19 November 2014, 00:16:05
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 November 2014, 00:43:52
I lived in China for 13 years and am fluent in Mandarin and a couple of local dialects. If you have any questions pls PM me. My remarks are not racist, they are made from intimate experience with their "condensed and efficient supply chain" lol.It’s nonetheless an unhelpful generalization, unless you have direct knowledge or experience with Kaihua the company or their business practices. (If you do have direct criticism to level against Kaihua, please share.)
Moreover, copying existing things (especially ones past the point of any legal protection) happens absolutely everywhere, and is hardly unique to China. If trying to profit from other people’s ideas is “the Chinese way”, then it is equally “the American way” and “the British way” and “the German way” and “the Korean way” &c. Or perhaps more generally “the any-company-anywhere-who-thinks-there’s-a-profit-there way”.
There’s a reason that patents expire: some corporate entity shouldn’t have a perpetual right to profit off any human invention. Instead of ideas being locked up forever, they become the patrimony of everyone, and if someone else can manage to make the same thing better, or cheaper, or faster, then we generally all benefit when they go ahead and do it.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Wed, 19 November 2014, 01:02:41
Anyway, I am also curious to know what people's long term experience with these are. Cherry, Alps, and others have many many years of data to draw from. Statements about the reliability of Kailh should be withheld until a similar (or at least much greater than we have now) amount of data can be observed.
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 November 2014, 01:19:14
It’s just that in many places lawsuits provide at least a bit of a brake, and governments aren’t quite as out in the open about their corruption. But companies will do what they can get away with, and in many developed countries the institutions (like unions, government regulators, and courts) who hold corporate interests back even a little bit have been systematically coopted or defanged for the past 40 years. Pretty much everywhere in the world, for every admirable corporation, there are 10 more who act like psychopaths.
Post by: davkol on Wed, 19 November 2014, 03:01:05
its not plagerism, the copyright expired, and now anyone can use the tech. learn how it works.Patents and copyright are two different things. Yes, both are a kind of a monopoly on distribution, but then there's the other part of copyright, i.e. autorship. I don't blame Chinese for not having respect to that as an integral part of their culture (it's traditionally based on copying to a large extent after all, paintings in particular). However, it doesn't mean I'm gonna adopt that approach ASAP.
There's a big issue with the way the keyboards are marketed... Razer claiming they've designed their switches ground up; others putting stress on the "blue" part of a switch, sometimes even adding the word "Cherry" (spotted repeatedly on eBay).
Besides, what's the advantage of all the clones? Umm, yeah. Quantity. Is it even an advantage?
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 November 2014, 03:49:23
There's a big issue with the way the keyboards are marketed... Razer claiming they've designed their switches ground up; others putting stress on the "blue" part of a switch, sometimes even adding the word "Cherry" (spotted repeatedly on eBay).I don’t think ebay pages count as “marketing”. As for Razer.... well....
Quote
Besides, what's the advantage of all the clones? Umm, yeah. Quantity. Is it even an advantage?The big advantage is that you can buy as many of the clone switches as you want, anytime, on short notice, for a bit cheaper than the best price you’ll find for MX switches.
If you talk to anyone who tries to source MX switches, they’ll tell you that the supply problems with various Cherry switches introduce a huge amount of headache and uncertainty into every keyboard project. Pretty much every keyboard vendor would love to use something other than MX switches for that reason alone. Some of them are sticking with MX because the consumer perception is still that Cherry switches are better. But it’s as much for availability risk concerns as price per se or slight design tweaks (whatever Razer’s marketing will tell you) that you see so many keyboards switching from Cherry to Kaihua switches recently, not to mention so much interest in Matias switches and e.g. Logitech adopting new Omron switches.
Post by: davkol on Wed, 19 November 2014, 10:47:59
Quote
I don’t think ebay pages count as “marketing”.Vendors. eBay is a channel just like Amazon or even NewEgg nowadays.
Quote
The big advantage is that you can buy as many of the clone switches as you want, anytime, on short notice, for a bit cheaper than the best price you’ll find for MX switches.Indeed... as long as you're a manufacturer/vendor. I'm neither.
As a customer, why should I purchase a something like that? Why not buy a keyboard made in England with German switches, and if can't afford it, well, what about buying used or DIY?
I know, I know—the growth fetish.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Wed, 19 November 2014, 11:22:41
So I guess I will have some experience for you guys soon.
Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 19 November 2014, 11:29:08
Base on the Razer Blackwidow demo units I tried at a local computer store. I find I actually prefer them over Cherry MX Blue and Brown in terms of feel.Note, that these are "Razer Green", not strictly Kailh.
They feel less wobbly and smooth.
Sure, they are less wobbly at the top, but I noticed they are just as wobbly as Cherry MX at the bottom.
I think it is just a tighter housing, and I suppose that sticker modified Cherry MX would feel the same.
However, the vintage Cherry MX Blue switches I type on now are much smoother than "Razer Green". New MX Blues don't top up as easily as broken-in vintage switches, and I feel that Razer Greens are slightly worse than new MX Blues.
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 19 November 2014, 13:24:14
As a customer, why should I purchase a something like that? Why not buy a keyboard made in England with German switches, and if can't afford it, well, what about buying used or DIY?As a customer, you should skip all of these and get a used Alps board. :P
Post by: Polymer on Wed, 19 November 2014, 14:37:05
Sure, but you could say the same thing about most consumer electronics firms everywhere (and most other firms for that matter); for instance almost everything any of the Korean chaebols do is super shady. You think Samsung is going to invent something new if they know they can get a better result by copying an existing product? Not a chance.
Not that this applies to these switches...but your comparison is a bad one. Most places will look at existing designs and try to improve upon them. China, generally, doesn't try to make it better, they try to make something that looks the same but isn't necessarily made as well, in an attempt to make it cheaper. There is SOME innovation there but for the most part, they don't create they copy. Korea, for examples, innovates...all of the other countries you mentioned, innovate...China, does not. The last innovation China had was probably gunpowder.
Post by: Jixr on Wed, 19 November 2014, 16:14:49
Quote
Not that this applies to these switches...but your comparison is a bad one. Most places will look at existing designs and try to improve upon them. China, generally, doesn't try to make it better, they try to make something that looks the same but isn't necessarily made as well, in an attempt to make it cheaper. There is SOME innovation there but for the most part, they don't create they copy. Korea, for examples, innovates...all of the other countries you mentioned, innovate
...China, does not. The last innovation China had was probably gunpowder.
This is such an ignorant statement.
Post by: yicaoyimu on Wed, 19 November 2014, 16:52:00
(http://i.imgur.com/WECEECK.png)
Post by: heedpantsnow on Wed, 19 November 2014, 17:35:15
lol to those that say Kailth is illegal. Maybe you are too lazy to even check but it's OK. I did that for you. You can STFU now.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/WECEECK.png)
Settle down dude. No one said illegal. It's simply sad that they don't create. Lol.
Post by: tutuling on Thu, 20 November 2014, 02:08:29
Post by: johndavis33 on Thu, 20 November 2014, 11:10:25
That said, I doubt Kailh puts their switches through the kind of testing that cherry did in that video. Judging by their market/appeal atm, I don't think they'd be able to produce such a large volume at the price they do if they were to conduct that kind of testing.
Post by: dante on Thu, 20 November 2014, 11:32:09
Think that LinusTechTips videowhere he toured the cherry factory was related to this stuff? It's probably not a conincidence that they got invited to tour the factory soon after Kailh switches took off.
That said, I doubt Kailh puts their switches through the kind of testing that cherry did in that video. Judging by their market/appeal atm, I don't think they'd be able to produce such a large volume at the price they do if they were to conduct that kind of testing.
Unfortunately Cherry's testing doesn't account for non-Clicky Blues/Greens/Whites, or scratchy Reds and Blacks.