Post by: redeye on Wed, 19 November 2014, 05:12:54
I'm just testing the water here with anyone who has any insight with topre boards or who may have already used this product that could tell me if this mod is feasible?
My plan is to disassemble the novatouch and remove the top plate and pop out the sliders. Then mask off where necessary and spray a thin layer of rubber on the back of the top plate and inside the housing of where the sliders go. The aim here is to remove the clack of the returning key against the housing, its pretty much the same principle as a lot of silencing mods already out there.
I'm also think of spraying on top of the top plate in the stabilised locations like "enter, right shift and backspace" keys because they are noisy on the way down too.
The spray product i'm going to use is frost auto's Liquid wrap, any views on this will greatly help. Thanks
Post by: kaiteoki on Wed, 19 November 2014, 05:41:35
Post by: feizor on Wed, 19 November 2014, 06:02:02
Get a real topre S. Whats the point buying a half ass comercial "gaming" topre switch made by a company that isnt solely focused on real keyboards that include an abundant amount of gimmicky features that nobody uses like stupid ass 8x repeat rate and retard media keys with cheap ass stock keycaps. This severely gimped out overpriced keyboard is worth being bought by suckers like you. Cooler master did their homework on scamming fools such as yourself. You feel for their garbo marketting scheme.
The MX stems.
Post by: kaiteoki on Wed, 19 November 2014, 06:29:52
you re one of this se that fell fr the low quality product with high marketting schemesGet a real topre S. Whats the point buying a half ass comercial "gaming" topre switch made by a company that isnt solely focused on real keyboards that include an abundant amount of gimmicky features that nobody uses like stupid ass 8x repeat rate and retard media keys with cheap ass stock keycaps. This severely gimped out overpriced keyboard is worth being bought by suckers like you. Cooler master did their homework on scamming fools such as yourself. You feel for their garbo marketting scheme.
The MX stems.
Post by: redeye on Wed, 19 November 2014, 07:08:03
Get a real topre S. Whats the point buying a half ass comercial "gaming" topre switch made by a company that isnt solely focused on real keyboards that include an abundant amount of gimmicky features that nobody uses like stupid ass 8x repeat rate and retard media keys with cheap ass stock keycaps. This severely gimped out overpriced keyboard is worth being bought by suckers like you. Cooler master did their homework on scamming fools such as yourself. You feel for their garbo marketting scheme.
you re one of this se that fell fr the low quality product with high marketting schemesGet a real topre S. Whats the point buying a half ass comercial "gaming" topre switch made by a company that isnt solely focused on real keyboards that include an abundant amount of gimmicky features that nobody uses like stupid ass 8x repeat rate and retard media keys with cheap ass stock keycaps. This severely gimped out overpriced keyboard is worth being bought by suckers like you. Cooler master did their homework on scamming fools such as yourself. You feel for their garbo marketting scheme.
The MX stems.
Sorry did I just start a thread saying "Please ridicule me for buying a novatouch because life is just too good"? I don't think so. Please if you have an info about any possible technical issues with the mod or helpful hints it would be much appreciated.
I'm enjoying my new board, I prefer it to brown switches i was using plus I got my gmk caps on, so It's a double plus.
Post by: Roibhilin on Wed, 19 November 2014, 08:00:40
Get a real topre S. Whats the point buying a half ass comercial "gaming" topre switch made by a company that isnt solely focused on real keyboards that include an abundant amount of gimmicky features that nobody uses like stupid ass 8x repeat rate and retard media keys with cheap ass stock keycaps. This severely gimped out overpriced keyboard is worth being bought by suckers like you. Cooler master did their homework on scamming fools such as yourself. You feel for their garbo marketting scheme.please chill
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 19 November 2014, 08:39:23
In other words, go for it. I can't see any reason not to do it.
Post by: 0100010 on Wed, 19 November 2014, 08:46:05
Not being familiar with product you mentioned using, you would probably want to test a small normally not visible area with it - to see if the solvent used in the spray in any way affects the top plate negatively (this is assuming the novatouch plate is plastic, like the HHKB).
Secondly, provided you don't have any solvent issues (like the plate melting, getting soft, discoloring) - the next thing you will want to check is how well the sprayed on product adheres to the plate. Is it going to bond permanently and potentially ruin the plate? Or is it going to be a very loose bond, where after a few keystrokes it will start to delaminate and cause issues.
Other than that - can only say go for it. That's kind of the point - make your keyboard into something you really enjoy.
Post by: spiceBar on Wed, 19 November 2014, 11:03:08
Hi all,
I'm just testing the water here with anyone who has any insight with topre boards or who may have already used this product that could tell me if this mod is feasible?
My plan is to disassemble the novatouch and remove the top plate and pop out the sliders. Then mask off where necessary and spray a thin layer of rubber on the back of the top plate and inside the housing of where the sliders go. The aim here is to remove the clack of the returning key against the housing, its pretty much the same principle as a lot of silencing mods already out there.
I'm also think of spraying on top of the top plate in the stabilised locations like "enter, right shift and backspace" keys because they are noisy on the way down too.
The spray product i'm going to use is frost auto's Liquid wrap, any views on this will greatly help. Thanks
I don't think the mod you suggest is feasible, but it would be nice if you could test it at least on one key. Be warned: if the spray contains acetone or other solvants, it may be dangerous for the keyboard.
I'm going to release soon a post about silencing the Novatouch, because that's what I have been doing in the last 3 evenings.
If you want to hear the result, here is how the Novatouch sounds out of the box:
http://www.chesstiger.com/images/keyboards/Novatouch.wav
And here is how it sounds after my silencing mod:
http://www.chesstiger.com/images/keyboards/Novatouch_fully_silenced.wav
Both recordings have been done at the same level, with the mic at the same distance, and the typing style was light: I was trying in both case to type fast without making too much noise.
At the end of the audio clip I press 3 times on each of the stabilized keys, in this order:
Backspace
Enter
Right Shift
Left Shift
Space
The mod is done mainly with soft landing pads, slimmed down with a clothing iron to ~0.15mm. Padding is used for the bottom of the case, and firm landing pads are used for the space bar.
A few points:
- Spraying the plate would be mostly useless. The click sound on the upstroke is caused by the slider hitting the inside of the switch housing. That's were you want to put some rubber.
- The inside of the switch is partially lubed. You would probably need to remove the lube before applying the rubber.
- The layer of rubber should not be more than 0.3mm thick. 0.2 or a little less would be excellent.
- The rattle of the stabilized keys is caused by the stabilizer wire inside them. The wires are hitting the plastic because there is too much space for them and they bounce back and forth inside the housing when you hit these keys. The correct way to silence this is to put thick grease on the ends of these wires. Maybe letting rubber dry at their ends and then applying grease on top of this could also help. This involves disassembling the stabilized keys in all cases (which is not hard to do anyway once you have separated the metal plate from the PCB).
Post by: redeye on Wed, 19 November 2014, 19:51:36
@Oobly
Is there any chance you have a link to any info on your "latex" mod? Thanks
@0100010
"Or is it going to be a very loose bond, where after a few keystrokes it will start to delaminate and cause issues."
This is a real concern, I can see this happening over time or when removing any small pieces of masking tape causing some rubber to come loose dropping debris on to the pcb.
@spicebar
Your mod sounds superb and exactly what I want to achieve, are they the pads from elitekeyboards? my only concern is the pads expand over time and return to their normal width. This may have an effect on the travel distance of the slider altering the tactile feel as reported on a similar mod on a realforce.
"- Spraying the plate would be mostly useless. The click sound on the upstroke is caused by the slider hitting the inside of the switch housing. That's were you want to put some rubber."
I agree, one option of my plan was to spay the underside of the housing like in the image and possibly in a few other locations
(http://i.imgur.com/Zj7gCUt.png)
Photo credit: elitekeyboards
I only have an issue with 3 keys (which are all stabilised) and your mod isn't as destructive as my idea so i'll probably give your idea a shot, thanks.
Post by: spiceBar on Wed, 19 November 2014, 21:58:17
Thanks to everyone for the advice, I'm glad I asked. It never occurred to me about the issues I'll have with a solvent based spray and it looks like the product I'll be using does have acetone as an active ingredient.
@Oobly
Is there any chance you have a link to any info on your "latex" mod? Thanks
@0100010
"Or is it going to be a very loose bond, where after a few keystrokes it will start to delaminate and cause issues."
This is a real concern, I can see this happening over time or when removing any small pieces of masking tape causing some rubber to come loose dropping debris on to the pcb.
@spicebar
Your mod sounds superb and exactly what I want to achieve, are they the pads from elitekeyboards? my only concern is the pads expand over time and return to their normal width. This may have an effect on the travel distance of the slider altering the tactile feel as reported on a similar mod on a realforce.
"- Spraying the plate would be mostly useless. The click sound on the upstroke is caused by the slider hitting the inside of the switch housing. That's were you want to put some rubber."
I agree, one option of my plan was to spay the underside of the housing like in the image and possibly in a few other locationsShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/Zj7gCUt.png)
Photo credit: elitekeyboards
I only have an issue with 3 keys (which are all stabilised) and your mod isn't as destructive as my idea so i'll probably give your idea a shot, thanks.
Yes, these are the soft landing pads (black ones) from EliteKeyboard.com.
In your picture, you do not have to worry about the keycap touching the top of the housing. It does not happen, because the slider has little legs (see pictures below) and these legs hit the rubber sheet above the PCB before the keycaps can come in contact with the switch housing. The legs touching the bottom rubber is what makes the "thock". If the keycaps came in contact, the noise would be a "click" similar to the one on the upstroke. But they don't.
For this reason, I still do not understand why CM includes O-rings with the keyboard. They cannot do anything. The O-rings are smaller than the circumference of the slider, so there is really no way they can help the same way they help in Cherry MX switches. However there is one thing they can do: they can make the keycap taller, and it is possible that some keycaps could touch the side of the housing without O-rings. In this case, including O-rings is a waste of rubber: rings made with hard plastic would do exactly the same thing.
So either CM does not understand what they are doing, or they do understand it but they think it's too complicated to explain to us and that we will be satisfied with "O-rings = sound dampening". Or it just happens that they have loads of O-rings in stock and it's cheaper for us to provide them instead of hard plastic rings.
Anyway... No noise happens on the top of the housing and it does not serve any purpose to put rubber over there. Unless you have keycaps with strange shapes.
The only place you need to add rubber is inside the switch.
Here are pictures that will help in understanding what happens, but please keep in mind that these pictures are not 100% accurate. They are just meant to explain the "click" on the upstroke and how to get rid of it:
Without sound dampening:
[attachimg=2]
With sound dampening (a landing pad has been installed inside the switch):
[attachimg=3]
Please note that the landing pads are much thinner in reality than on this picture.
You can find a step-by-step of the mod I did initially on the FC660C here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49046.0
What you do is that you follow this procedure, but at step 4 you insert a new step:
You take a clothing iron, you set it to the highest temperature, and you iron the landing pads as hard as you can. You must put them inside a folded sheet of paper to avoid direct contact with the iron, because they may burn.
Actually, depending on the power of your clothing iron, they may burn even inside the sheet of paper. So experiment with just one landing pad at a time until you find the right setting. When the landing pads start to stick to the paper, your iron is a little too hot. Just a little. It may be good at this temperature as long as you can remove the pads from the paper. I have not experimented this: even at its highest temperature, my iron has not been able to burn the pads.
Using the highest possible temperature before they burn guarantees that they will not return to their initial width. There is some melding happening here, so they will stay like that.
In my previous mods, I had started using this method, but I was afraid to slim the pads all the way down. When they were too slim they started to "climb" on the slider a little bit and I thought this would jam the switch. I was wrong.
So I was using pads that were between 1mm=0.04inch (first experiments) to just 0.4mm=0.016inch. There was a small change in the feel of the Topre switch.
Now I slim them down to between 0.15 to 0.20mm (0.006 to 0.008inch), and there is absolutely no change in the tactile feel of the switch. The upstroke noise is still dampened.
Here is what they should look like before and after "processing":
[attachimg=1]
Obviously, the two in the middle have not been ironed... Yet! :)
Then you install these pads on the slider (they are more like a sheet of rubber at this point):
[attachimg=4]
They do climb a little bit on the slider, but it turns out that it does not matter, thanks to the shape of the housing. The mechanical action of the upstroke will secure them in this position. They cannot climb any higher.
With the picture above, you get an idea of the width of the landing pad: the edge on which the pad sits is approximately 1mm in width (0.04inch). On the picture you can see that the landing pad is less than 1/5 of this. It's between 0.15 and 0.20mm (between 0.006 and 0.008inch) when it is free. Once inside the switch, it will be slightly compressed by the rubber dome and the conical spring under it, so I'm pretty sure we are talking about a reduction of 0.15mm here (0.006inch). It represents less than 4% of the key travel.
The pad's orientation is important:
[attachimg=5]
On the stabilized keys, you install it like this:
[attachimg=6]
Finally, the rattle of the stabilized keys can be dampened with thick silicon or lithium grease, like this:
[attachimg=7]
I plan to post a complete description of the mod, but here you have the essential points covered with pictures.
Good luck! :)
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 20 November 2014, 01:07:25
That does sound really good. I must admit the Novatouch does tempt me, but I'm going to try to resist and see whether they bring out a 55g version. I'm also investigating capacitive sensing PCB designs and may end up making my own 55g 60% layout, but that's quite far from becoming a reality right now.
@redeye: It's kind of hidden away in the trampoline mod thread, but it's a very simple mod, a couple of drops of liquid latex or other type of liquid rubber on the inside of the top casing of MX switches: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50632.msg1113167#msg1113167
I have been using it for about a year now on my home keyboard and 6 months or so on my work one and have not had any pieces come off the top casing, so I'm fairly certain they'll stay in place. I'd actually recommend rather doing spiceBar's silencing mods, for Topre, though.
Post by: redeye on Thu, 20 November 2014, 03:05:59
spicebar you have nailed it, I'll be placing an order for the pads by the end of today, once again thanks for the tutorial.
Post by: deci on Fri, 21 November 2014, 13:00:00
I did now know you could get the soft landing pads that thin without them 'puffing' back out to at least .5mm
I'm making an order for landing pads now.
For this reason, I still do not understand why CM includes O-rings with the keyboard. They cannot do anything. The O-rings are smaller than the circumference of the slider, so there is really no way they can help the same way they help in Cherry MX switches. However there is one thing they can do: they can make the keycap taller, and it is possible that some keycaps could touch the side of the housing without O-rings. In this case, including O-rings is a waste of rubber: rings made with hard plastic would do exactly the same thing.The O-rings do nothing on OEM caps like the stock ones but are necessary for low profile keycaps like original cherry dolch. The cross seams on the inside roof in these key caps smack the switch housing when pressed. This is extra bad on stabilizer keys since the novatouch stabs have that little ridged ring that sticks up. It makes a huge difference.
So basically Cooler Master was smart enough to realize that some keycap sets require the o-rings. (Note, soft landing pads would probably work a lot better for this as well since it covers the cross seems better).
Post by: spiceBar on Fri, 21 November 2014, 21:39:14
Great write up.
I did now know you could get the soft landing pads that thin without them 'puffing' back out to at least .5mm
I'm making an order for landing pads now.For this reason, I still do not understand why CM includes O-rings with the keyboard. They cannot do anything. The O-rings are smaller than the circumference of the slider, so there is really no way they can help the same way they help in Cherry MX switches. However there is one thing they can do: they can make the keycap taller, and it is possible that some keycaps could touch the side of the housing without O-rings. In this case, including O-rings is a waste of rubber: rings made with hard plastic would do exactly the same thing.The O-rings do nothing on OEM caps like the stock ones but are necessary for low profile keycaps like original cherry dolch. The cross seams on the inside roof in these key caps smack the switch housing when pressed. This is extra bad on stabilizer keys since the novatouch stabs have that little ridged ring that sticks up. It makes a huge difference.
So basically Cooler Master was smart enough to realize that some keycap sets require the o-rings. (Note, soft landing pads would probably work a lot better for this as well since it covers the cross seems better).
Can we agree that all the O-ring does is that it keeps the keycap high enough so that it does hit the switch housing?
My point is that when they are used in Cherry MX switches, the elastic properties of O-rings are crucial. The O-ring is sandwiched between the keycap roof (or the crossbars) and the top of the switch housing, reducing the travel of the key. An elastic O-ring will dampen the sound more than a hard one.
In Cherry MX switches, the O-rings always REDUCE the key travel.
In the Novatouch, the elasticity of the O-ring serves no purpose. The O-rings are there only because they prevent the keycap from being pushed all the way down on the stem.
More, the O-rings in the Novatouch cannot reduce the key travel. They actually will, in some case, increase the key travel.
Here are a few picture to explain this point:
In the first picture, we can see that the crossbar under the roof of the keycap could indeed hit the switch housing. This depends on the length of the stem under the keycap, which explains that it happens mainly with low profile keycaps that have shorter stems:
[attachimg=1]
The level of the moving slider (purple) is lower than the level of the switch housing (black).
The roof of the cap, or the crossbars, could hit the housing.
In this second picture, I show that an O-ring is approximately the same circumference as the slider, and has a smaller circumference than the opening in the switch housing:
[attachimg=2]
In this third picture, I show what happens when the key is pressed when an O-ring is installed. The switch is bottomed-out, and the level of the keycap (which can only be above the O-ring) is now above the level of the switch housing:
[attachimg=3]
The roof of the cap cannot hit the housing anymore, because the cap is now higher.
Please note that depending on the shape of the keycap, it could hit the housing somewhere else,
but probably not on the circular edge.
The elastic properties of the O-ring do not play any role. A hard O-ring could be used with the same effects.
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 21 November 2014, 22:31:20
Post by: spiceBar on Fri, 21 November 2014, 22:54:31
science has happened, but where would you mount the o-ring? Would it work on the key? Can you test this?
You mount the O-ring exactly like on a Cherry MX keycap: around the stem under the keycap.
However, as I have explained, the O-ring has a very different effect on the Novatouch. On Cherry MX, it prevents the switch slider from hitting the bottom of the switch case.
On the Novatouch its purpose is to force the keycap to be mounted higher, so some keycaps models do not hit the housing when you press the keys.
On Cherry MX, the elasticity of the O-ring is essential.
On the Novatouch, only its width matters.
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 21 November 2014, 22:55:55
science has happened, but where would you mount the o-ring? Would it work on the key? Can you test this?
You mount the O-ring exactly like on a Cherry MX keycap: around the stem under the keycap.
However, as I have explained, the O-ring has a very different effect on the Novatouch. On Cherry MX, it prevents the switch slider from hitting the bottom of the switch case.
On the Novatouch its purpose is to force the keycap to be mounted higher, so some keycaps models do not hit the housing when you press the keys.
On Cherry MX, the elasticity of the O-ring is essential.
On the Novatouch, only its width matters.
Alright, that's fairly sensible then. I'd like to see someone try this for a full set and see some thoughts on it..
Post by: spiceBar on Fri, 21 November 2014, 23:20:00
science has happened, but where would you mount the o-ring? Would it work on the key? Can you test this?
You mount the O-ring exactly like on a Cherry MX keycap: around the stem under the keycap.
However, as I have explained, the O-ring has a very different effect on the Novatouch. On Cherry MX, it prevents the switch slider from hitting the bottom of the switch case.
On the Novatouch its purpose is to force the keycap to be mounted higher, so some keycaps models do not hit the housing when you press the keys.
On Cherry MX, the elasticity of the O-ring is essential.
On the Novatouch, only its width matters.
Alright, that's fairly sensible then. I'd like to see someone try this for a full set and see some thoughts on it..
For most keycaps sets, O-rings don't do anything on the Novatouch.
The caps will sit 1mm (0.04 inch) higher, but the sound will be the same.
For the few keycaps sets that produce a high-pitched, plastic-on-plastic sound when bottoming-out, the O-rings may suppress this sound and replace it with the Topre "Thock".
None of this will do anything for the plastic-on-plastic clicking sound on the upstroke, which must be addressed with the method I have described (slimmed down landing pads).
Post by: redeye on Sat, 22 November 2014, 13:04:41
After i've done spicebar's mod I may coat the underside of 2 or 3 keys just to help with the downstroke clack on the housing, this is more apparent on my iso enter and right shift keys.
Post by: madhias on Sat, 22 November 2014, 13:53:40
Post by: Ngt on Tue, 25 November 2014, 07:55:36
spiceBars mod made me jealous and i have to get a Novatouch sometimes! It sounds perfect.
I want a Topre keyboard. I thought I'd go for a RF 88UB but then I heard about the Novatouch and Spicebar's mod. Now I don't know what I want anymore ...
RF = good keycaps from stock, good quality build but poor choice of customization for 205€.
CM Novatouch = poor keycaps, good quality build but much more customization (and really nice sound if silenced) for 180€.
So I'm thinking: "Well I don't need to change the keycaps as long as I have good caps from stock" but I'm not sure and if I change my mind then I'll be ****ed ... I just feel that the RF looks more "badass" than the Novatouch that seems "cheap" too me. Perhaps I'm just fooling myself around.
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 25 November 2014, 12:59:25
spiceBars mod made me jealous and i have to get a Novatouch sometimes! It sounds perfect.
I want a Topre keyboard. I thought I'd go for a RF 88UB but then I heard about the Novatouch and Spicebar's mod. Now I don't know what I want anymore ...
RF = good keycaps from stock, good quality build but poor choice of customization for 205€.
CM Novatouch = poor keycaps, good quality build but much more customization (and really nice sound if silenced) for 180€.
So I'm thinking: "Well I don't need to change the keycaps as long as I have good caps from stock" but I'm not sure and if I change my mind then I'll be ****ed ... I just feel that the RF looks more "badass" than the Novatouch that seems "cheap" too me. Perhaps I'm just fooling myself around.
The keycaps legends on the RF88UB are definitely unreadable. I know, I have one. They are black, and the keycaps are dark grey.
That's an important point to keep in mind.
Post by: Ngt on Tue, 25 November 2014, 14:35:17
spiceBars mod made me jealous and i have to get a Novatouch sometimes! It sounds perfect.
I want a Topre keyboard. I thought I'd go for a RF 88UB but then I heard about the Novatouch and Spicebar's mod. Now I don't know what I want anymore ...
RF = good keycaps from stock, good quality build but poor choice of customization for 205€.
CM Novatouch = poor keycaps, good quality build but much more customization (and really nice sound if silenced) for 180€.
So I'm thinking: "Well I don't need to change the keycaps as long as I have good caps from stock" but I'm not sure and if I change my mind then I'll be ****ed ... I just feel that the RF looks more "badass" than the Novatouch that seems "cheap" too me. Perhaps I'm just fooling myself around.
The keycaps legends on the RF88UB are definitely unreadable. I know, I have one. They are black, and the keycaps are dark grey.
That's an important point to keep in mind.
Yeah I know but it could be like a test to see if I can write on blank keycaps. A test priced at 200€ though. The fact is that the Novatouch is priced at 180€ in France, adding a good PBT set to the calculation set the price at 260€ at least, considering shipping fees. Not so far from the 220€ required for the RF (included shipping fees) you would say. The hesitation is here ???
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 25 November 2014, 22:43:07
spiceBars mod made me jealous and i have to get a Novatouch sometimes! It sounds perfect.
I want a Topre keyboard. I thought I'd go for a RF 88UB but then I heard about the Novatouch and Spicebar's mod. Now I don't know what I want anymore ...
RF = good keycaps from stock, good quality build but poor choice of customization for 205€.
CM Novatouch = poor keycaps, good quality build but much more customization (and really nice sound if silenced) for 180€.
So I'm thinking: "Well I don't need to change the keycaps as long as I have good caps from stock" but I'm not sure and if I change my mind then I'll be ****ed ... I just feel that the RF looks more "badass" than the Novatouch that seems "cheap" too me. Perhaps I'm just fooling myself around.
The keycaps legends on the RF88UB are definitely unreadable. I know, I have one. They are black, and the keycaps are dark grey.
That's an important point to keep in mind.
Yeah I know but it could be like a test to see if I can write on blank keycaps. A test priced at 200€ though. The fact is that the Novatouch is priced at 180€ in France, adding a good PBT set to the calculation set the price at 260€ at least, considering shipping fees. Not so far from the 220€ required for the RF (included shipping fees) you would say. The hesitation is here ???
What PBT keycaps would you put on the Novatouch? An AZERTY set? Where can we find one?
Post by: Ngt on Wed, 26 November 2014, 03:05:02
spiceBars mod made me jealous and i have to get a Novatouch sometimes! It sounds perfect.
I want a Topre keyboard. I thought I'd go for a RF 88UB but then I heard about the Novatouch and Spicebar's mod. Now I don't know what I want anymore ...
RF = good keycaps from stock, good quality build but poor choice of customization for 205€.
CM Novatouch = poor keycaps, good quality build but much more customization (and really nice sound if silenced) for 180€.
So I'm thinking: "Well I don't need to change the keycaps as long as I have good caps from stock" but I'm not sure and if I change my mind then I'll be ****ed ... I just feel that the RF looks more "badass" than the Novatouch that seems "cheap" too me. Perhaps I'm just fooling myself around.
The keycaps legends on the RF88UB are definitely unreadable. I know, I have one. They are black, and the keycaps are dark grey.
That's an important point to keep in mind.
Yeah I know but it could be like a test to see if I can write on blank keycaps. A test priced at 200€ though. The fact is that the Novatouch is priced at 180€ in France, adding a good PBT set to the calculation set the price at 260€ at least, considering shipping fees. Not so far from the 220€ required for the RF (included shipping fees) you would say. The hesitation is here ???
What PBT keycaps would you put on the Novatouch? An AZERTY set? Where can we find one?
Oh I guess I just forgot about that ... Sometimes I just think about using QWERTY or blank keycaps. It is just too hard to find AZERTY set. That's why I'm wondering if this is worth getting a Topre board on which you can easily replace the set but not in AZERTY. At least I would have the choice of the set and not only a black on black set.
Post by: azhdar on Wed, 26 November 2014, 03:20:58
spiceBars mod made me jealous and i have to get a Novatouch sometimes! It sounds perfect.
I want a Topre keyboard. I thought I'd go for a RF 88UB but then I heard about the Novatouch and Spicebar's mod. Now I don't know what I want anymore ...
RF = good keycaps from stock, good quality build but poor choice of customization for 205€.
CM Novatouch = poor keycaps, good quality build but much more customization (and really nice sound if silenced) for 180€.
So I'm thinking: "Well I don't need to change the keycaps as long as I have good caps from stock" but I'm not sure and if I change my mind then I'll be ****ed ... I just feel that the RF looks more "badass" than the Novatouch that seems "cheap" too me. Perhaps I'm just fooling myself around.
The keycaps legends on the RF88UB are definitely unreadable. I know, I have one. They are black, and the keycaps are dark grey.
That's an important point to keep in mind.
Yeah I know but it could be like a test to see if I can write on blank keycaps. A test priced at 200€ though. The fact is that the Novatouch is priced at 180€ in France, adding a good PBT set to the calculation set the price at 260€ at least, considering shipping fees. Not so far from the 220€ required for the RF (included shipping fees) you would say. The hesitation is here ???
What PBT keycaps would you put on the Novatouch? An AZERTY set? Where can we find one?
Azerty PBT is hard ,
There once was a drop where they produced one white on black PBT azerty , got one second hand for 20€ .
You can find cherry G81 keyboard that got PBT dye-sub in Azerty , I got one for 20€ last week .
Someone is selling one set here for 50€ (expensive ) :
http://fr.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/comments/2nct2j/wts_eu_various_keyboards_ibm_model_mcherryetc/
Also Granite set come with inter kit so you can build up an azerty complet set .
ISO Azerty PBT life is hard .
Post by: Ngt on Wed, 26 November 2014, 04:34:54
Post by: spiceBar on Wed, 26 November 2014, 05:37:40
Yeah but I'm kind of getting tired to move heaven and earth to find just a keycaps set. I'll consider training on a blank set I think.
PBT AZERTY is hard to find, but ABS can be found.
The keyboard company has still a few Filco ABS double shots key caps in AZERTY. I have 3 sets and they are nice (heavy and spherical tops). They have a kind of retro look and feel. They fit on the Novatouch. I think they cost £29 or so.
If you insist, I believe they can also sell you a set of the standard Filco AZERTY keycaps. I think they keep spare sets.
Post by: Ngt on Wed, 26 November 2014, 06:08:26
Yeah but I'm kind of getting tired to move heaven and earth to find just a keycaps set. I'll consider training on a blank set I think.
PBT AZERTY is hard to find, but ABS can be found.
The keyboard company has still a few Filco ABS double shots key caps in AZERTY. I have 3 sets and they are nice (heavy and spherical tops). They have a kind of retro look and feel. They fit on the Novatouch. I think they cost £29 or so.
If you insist, I believe they can also sell you a set of the standard Filco AZERTY keycaps. I think they keep spare sets.
Does the standard Filco AZERTY keycaps set are made of ABS or PBT?
Post by: spiceBar on Wed, 26 November 2014, 12:22:58
Yeah but I'm kind of getting tired to move heaven and earth to find just a keycaps set. I'll consider training on a blank set I think.
PBT AZERTY is hard to find, but ABS can be found.
The keyboard company has still a few Filco ABS double shots key caps in AZERTY. I have 3 sets and they are nice (heavy and spherical tops). They have a kind of retro look and feel. They fit on the Novatouch. I think they cost £29 or so.
If you insist, I believe they can also sell you a set of the standard Filco AZERTY keycaps. I think they keep spare sets.
Does the standard Filco AZERTY keycaps set are made of ABS or PBT?
ABS.
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 27 November 2014, 07:38:33
I'd love to try a NovaTouch with 55g domes, your silencing mod and SA profile keycaps :)
Post by: Ngt on Thu, 27 November 2014, 07:42:47
Post by: spiceBar on Thu, 27 November 2014, 10:50:43
Are the domes on a RF board the same as the one used on the Novatouch? If they are it means that we could swap them and boum you have a novatouch with 55g domes.
They are identical, so it is possible to build a 55g Novatouch (you would also end up with a 45g Realforce).
I'm not going to try this, because I prefer the lightest Topres (30g and 45g).
@Oobly: thanks. I needed to take the pictures to better understand what's going on. It's not working as everyone would expect.
Post by: Heliosphere on Mon, 01 December 2014, 01:35:26
Are the domes on a RF board the same as the one used on the Novatouch? If they are it means that we could swap them and boum you have a novatouch with 55g domes.
They are identical, so it is possible to build a 55g Novatouch (you would also end up with a 45g Realforce).
I'm not going to try this, because I prefer the lightest Topres (30g and 45g).
@Oobly: thanks. I needed to take the pictures to better understand what's going on. It's not working as everyone would expect.
Hey spiceBar, how do you feel about the Novatouch with your silencing mod versus a Realforce 87U?
I have a 87U that someone did a silencing mod on, but with unflattened pads so the key travel is significant. I'm thinking of either re-modding or de-modding the 87U, or trying out modding a Novatouch.
Post by: spiceBar on Mon, 01 December 2014, 07:00:02
Are the domes on a RF board the same as the one used on the Novatouch? If they are it means that we could swap them and boum you have a novatouch with 55g domes.
They are identical, so it is possible to build a 55g Novatouch (you would also end up with a 45g Realforce).
I'm not going to try this, because I prefer the lightest Topres (30g and 45g).
@Oobly: thanks. I needed to take the pictures to better understand what's going on. It's not working as everyone would expect.
Hey spiceBar, how do you feel about the Novatouch with your silencing mod versus a Realforce 87U?
I have a 87U that someone did a silencing mod on, but with unflattened pads so the key travel is significant. I'm thinking of either re-modding or de-modding the 87U, or trying out modding a Novatouch.
With unflattened landing pads, your 87U has lost most of its tactility and 25% of key travel. I guess it's my fault, that's how I published the mod initially. You would get the tactility and key travel back by flattening the landing pads.
The Novatouch has a deeper "Thock". The Realforce, on the downstroke, sounds more muted. Both sound great anyway.
The Novatouch has more tactility than the Realforce. Maybe it's because it's uniform 45g.
Modding the Novatouch or the Realforce is approximately the same amount of work. The procedure is the same.
Between modding the Realforce or the Novatouch, I think the better deal is to mod the Novatouch:
- Cherry MX keycaps compatibility. That's the killer feature here.
- Deeper "Thock" (a matter of taste, naturally)
- More tactility
- Smaller footprint
The Realforce is great, but the Novatouch is as good once modded, and has the advantage of being compatible with Cherry MX keycaps.
Post by: Heliosphere on Tue, 02 December 2014, 17:19:05
With unflattened landing pads, your 87U has lost most of its tactility and 25% of key travel. I guess it's my fault, that's how I published the mod initially. You would get the tactility and key travel back by flattening the landing pads.
The Novatouch has a deeper "Thock". The Realforce, on the downstroke, sounds more muted. Both sound great anyway.
The Novatouch has more tactility than the Realforce. Maybe it's because it's uniform 45g.
Modding the Novatouch or the Realforce is approximately the same amount of work. The procedure is the same.
Between modding the Realforce or the Novatouch, I think the better deal is to mod the Novatouch:
- Cherry MX keycaps compatibility. That's the killer feature here.
- Deeper "Thock" (a matter of taste, naturally)
- More tactility
- Smaller footprint
The Realforce is great, but the Novatouch is as good once modded, and has the advantage of being compatible with Cherry MX keycaps.
I guess I will un-mod my Realforce. It's also uniform 45g, but I prefer getting the tactility back. I guess since the landing pads were glued onto the stem housings, removal might be messy. Have you attempted removal of landing pads before, and do you have any advice in that regard?
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 02 December 2014, 18:11:33
With unflattened landing pads, your 87U has lost most of its tactility and 25% of key travel. I guess it's my fault, that's how I published the mod initially. You would get the tactility and key travel back by flattening the landing pads.
The Novatouch has a deeper "Thock". The Realforce, on the downstroke, sounds more muted. Both sound great anyway.
The Novatouch has more tactility than the Realforce. Maybe it's because it's uniform 45g.
Modding the Novatouch or the Realforce is approximately the same amount of work. The procedure is the same.
Between modding the Realforce or the Novatouch, I think the better deal is to mod the Novatouch:
- Cherry MX keycaps compatibility. That's the killer feature here.
- Deeper "Thock" (a matter of taste, naturally)
- More tactility
- Smaller footprint
The Realforce is great, but the Novatouch is as good once modded, and has the advantage of being compatible with Cherry MX keycaps.
I guess I will un-mod my Realforce. It's also uniform 45g, but I prefer getting the tactility back. I guess since the landing pads were glued onto the stem housings, removal might be messy. Have you attempted removal of landing pads before, and do you have any advice in that regard?
Well obviously the keyboard has not been modded the way I recommend.
I don't know if it will be possible to undo this mod. It will depend on the kind of glue that has been used.
You need to be careful and remove all of the glue, or some keys risk getting stuck in the "up" position, or may end up harder to press. This may be difficult.
Good luck...
The way I mod Topre keyboards, the landing pads are simply put around the sliders. There is no glue involved. They are very easy to remove. I have recently unmodded one of my Realforce, and it ended up it its original state. No issue.
Post by: Zwi on Wed, 03 December 2014, 01:33:00
Well obviously the keyboard has not been modded the way I recommend.
I don't know if it will be possible to undo this mod. It will depend on the kind of glue that has been used.
You need to be careful and remove all of the glue, or some keys risk getting stuck in the "up" position, or may end up harder to press. This may be difficult.
Good luck...
The way I mod Topre keyboards, the landing pads are simply put around the sliders. There is no glue involved. They are very easy to remove. I have recently unmodded one of my Realforce, and it ended up it its original state. No issue.
spiceBar - Thanks for posting this tutorial
I purchased a NovaTouch for the main purpose of cannibalizing the sliders to use in my FC660C. After swapping the sliders I was not that happy with the sound compared to the stock FC660C. Since then I installed the landing pads as per your tutorial and can confirm that mod works 100% as you say.
At first I didn’t flatten the pads – it was not that bad but like you said there is a noticeable difference in the amount of travel in each key press. I just got done ripping it back apart to flatten the pads and it works a lot better now.
After the mod my FC660C (with NovaTouch sliders) sounds exactly like your audio clip. I’m not sure why they are not manufactured like this from the factory. IMO this mod makes the keyboard.
Post by: Heliosphere on Wed, 03 December 2014, 01:52:08
I'm not sure why they are not manufactured like this from the factory. IMO this mod makes the keyboard.
Adding pads adds another manufacturing step so it would be costly. It would be nice though if they could implement a simple way to add a thin rubber padding/coating on the top of the stems in the future. Novatouch Type S?
Post by: spiceBar on Wed, 03 December 2014, 09:58:13
Well obviously the keyboard has not been modded the way I recommend.
I don't know if it will be possible to undo this mod. It will depend on the kind of glue that has been used.
You need to be careful and remove all of the glue, or some keys risk getting stuck in the "up" position, or may end up harder to press. This may be difficult.
Good luck...
The way I mod Topre keyboards, the landing pads are simply put around the sliders. There is no glue involved. They are very easy to remove. I have recently unmodded one of my Realforce, and it ended up it its original state. No issue.
spiceBar - Thanks for posting this tutorial
I purchased a NovaTouch for the main purpose of cannibalizing the sliders to use in my FC660C. After swapping the sliders I was not that happy with the sound compared to the stock FC660C. Since then I installed the landing pads as per your tutorial and can confirm that mod works 100% as you say.
At first I didn’t flatten the pads – it was not that bad but like you said there is a noticeable difference in the amount of travel in each key press. I just got done ripping it back apart to flatten the pads and it works a lot better now.
After the mod my FC660C (with NovaTouch sliders) sounds exactly like your audio clip. I’m not sure why they are not manufactured like this from the factory. IMO this mod makes the keyboard.
Oh yes, a silenced FC660C is gorgeous in sound and feel. Congratulations! And yours can even be fitted with great Cherry MX keycaps!
You now have one of the greatest keyboards in the world.
Post by: Zwi on Wed, 03 December 2014, 16:17:20
Well obviously the keyboard has not been modded the way I recommend.
I don't know if it will be possible to undo this mod. It will depend on the kind of glue that has been used.
You need to be careful and remove all of the glue, or some keys risk getting stuck in the "up" position, or may end up harder to press. This may be difficult.
Good luck...
The way I mod Topre keyboards, the landing pads are simply put around the sliders. There is no glue involved. They are very easy to remove. I have recently unmodded one of my Realforce, and it ended up it its original state. No issue.
spiceBar - Thanks for posting this tutorial
I purchased a NovaTouch for the main purpose of cannibalizing the sliders to use in my FC660C. After swapping the sliders I was not that happy with the sound compared to the stock FC660C. Since then I installed the landing pads as per your tutorial and can confirm that mod works 100% as you say.
At first I didn�t flatten the pads � it was not that bad but like you said there is a noticeable difference in the amount of travel in each key press. I just got done ripping it back apart to flatten the pads and it works a lot better now.
After the mod my FC660C (with NovaTouch sliders) sounds exactly like your audio clip. I�m not sure why they are not manufactured like this from the factory. IMO this mod makes the keyboard.
Oh yes, a silenced FC660C is gorgeous in sound and feel. Congratulations! And yours can even be fitted with great Cherry MX keycaps!
You now have one of the greatest keyboards in the world.
Exactly how I feel after getting my Dolch set this week :D
(http://i.imgur.com/eYdIXie.jpg)
Post by: Heliosphere on Wed, 03 December 2014, 16:56:24
Post by: Ngt on Sat, 21 February 2015, 11:22:30
I tried to flatten the soft landing pads but it is way too long with my iron. I have to stay 4-5min pressing on each of them at full force even if the iron is at max power. Hence I came with a new idea:
(http://i.imgur.com/9dh3LnY.jpg)
I put the pads on the wood-burner at my parents with some weight over them to squeeze them for 4min. That's the time I need to make them ~0,3mm wide.
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 22 February 2015, 01:02:46
I started modding my Novatouch. Damn I had a hard time opening the board.
I tried to flatten the soft landing pads but it is way too long with my iron. I have to stay 4-5min pressing on each of them at full force even if the iron is at max power. Hence I came with a new idea:
I put the pads on the wood-burner at my parents with some weight over them to squeeze them for 4min. That's the time I need to make them ~0,3mm wide.
:)
After the "industrial" hair flat iron method, a few days ago, we have a new entry for the "Most Unexpected Way To Iron My Landing Pads" contest.
Now I think I'm ready to see anything involving a dragster, or an elephant! :)
What? A dragster AND an elephant? :eek:
Hint: they are going to reboot the LHC in a few days! :thumb:
Seriously, maybe 0.3mm is still not thin enough. I'm pretty sure you can shave a tenth of mm from that. 0.2mm would be much better.
I guess this yellow beverage has nothing to do with your keyboard and I'm even wondering if it's legal. :)
Post by: Ngt on Sun, 22 February 2015, 12:25:23
I started modding my Novatouch. Damn I had a hard time opening the board.
I tried to flatten the soft landing pads but it is way too long with my iron. I have to stay 4-5min pressing on each of them at full force even if the iron is at max power. Hence I came with a new idea:
I put the pads on the wood-burner at my parents with some weight over them to squeeze them for 4min. That's the time I need to make them ~0,3mm wide.
:)
After the "industrial" hair flat iron method, a few days ago, we have a new entry for the "Most Unexpected Way To Iron My Landing Pads" contest.
Now I think I'm ready to see anything involving a dragster, or an elephant! :)
What? A dragster AND an elephant? :eek:
Hint: they are going to reboot the LHC in a few days! :thumb:
Seriously, maybe 0.3mm is still not thin enough. I'm pretty sure you can shave a tenth of mm from that. 0.2mm would be much better.
I guess this yellow beverage has nothing to do with your keyboard and I'm even wondering if it's legal. :)
It took me so many hours for the whole operation. It took me pretty much 12 hours straight. I went to bed at 6:30am this morning. I think it is because it was my first time opening a board. I struggled at pretty much every step
. Hopefully Azhdar gave me some tips at the beginning when I was stuck.In the end I must admit that the difference in noise is pretty clear. Damn that space bar is so smooth!
However I think my flattening method was ****. It feels like the pads took back some of their original thickness. I managed to put them between 0,2mm and 0,3mm (I just guess because I didn't have a ruler going lower than 1mm). They looked pretty slim though. When I woke up, I tried the board and the switch felt way more linear. I removed 2 pads from 2 plungers to compare and indeed they thickened. The nearby keys are lower than my stock reference keys when you look at their profile even though they are on the same row.
I'll have to try the industrial method. It seems faster than the clothing iron. How long did you have to use the clothing iron them to get the desired thickness? The idea of doing it all over again is not delighting. But I can't lose that tactility. There is no point in using Topre otherwise.
About that yellow beverage, it is called kefir and it is legal
. It is done by putting a special mushroom in water with sugar, lime and ginger. The mushroom consumes the sugar and ferment the beverage. It produces probiotics which are so good for the guts flora hence the organism. The fermentation produces gas which make the beverage like a lemonade. In the end you get a yellow lemonade fully organic, a bit sweet with the taste of the fruit you put in it. It is awesome. Of course serve it chill and before drinking it you must filter the mushroom and you can put it in another bottle to start over again. 
It is similar to kombucha for those who heard of it.Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 22 February 2015, 18:33:20
I started modding my Novatouch. Damn I had a hard time opening the board.
I tried to flatten the soft landing pads but it is way too long with my iron. I have to stay 4-5min pressing on each of them at full force even if the iron is at max power. Hence I came with a new idea:
I put the pads on the wood-burner at my parents with some weight over them to squeeze them for 4min. That's the time I need to make them ~0,3mm wide.
:)
After the "industrial" hair flat iron method, a few days ago, we have a new entry for the "Most Unexpected Way To Iron My Landing Pads" contest.
Now I think I'm ready to see anything involving a dragster, or an elephant! :)
What? A dragster AND an elephant? :eek:
Hint: they are going to reboot the LHC in a few days! :thumb:
Seriously, maybe 0.3mm is still not thin enough. I'm pretty sure you can shave a tenth of mm from that. 0.2mm would be much better.
I guess this yellow beverage has nothing to do with your keyboard and I'm even wondering if it's legal. :)
It took me so many hours for the whole operation. It took me pretty much 12 hours straight. I went to bed at 6:30am this morning. I think it is because it was my first time opening a board. I struggled at pretty much every step
In the end I must admit that the difference in noise is pretty clear. Damn that space bar is so smooth!
However I think my flattening method was ****. It feels like the pads took back some of their original thickness. I managed to put them between 0,2mm and 0,3mm (I just guess because I didn't have a ruler going lower than 1mm). They looked pretty slim though. When I woke up, I tried the board and the switch felt way more linear. I removed 2 pads from 2 plungers to compare and indeed they thickened. The nearby keys are lower than my stock reference keys when you look at their profile even though they are on the same row.
I'll have to try the industrial method. It seems faster than the clothing iron. How long did you have to use the clothing iron them to get the desired thickness? The idea of doing it all over again is not delighting. But I can't lose that tactility. There is no point in using Topre otherwise.
About that yellow beverage, it is called kefir and it is legal
OK, so probiotics (code name for alcool?) and mushrooms and you can't any work done, right? :))
Seriously, the problem you have must be the temperature. I'm surprised your clothing iron cannot get hot enough.
On the highest setting on mine (linen), the temperature was high enough to permanently slim the landing pads without melting them. I guess I must have been lucky. I pressed hard (5-10kg approximately) on the pads with the iron for 20 to 30 seconds.
Don't worry too much that you have to redo it. The same thing happened to me. Yes, you'll have to suffer the disassembly process all over again, and ironing the pads once again is a pain, but in the end this keyboard will be just perfect and 100% yours. Of all the Realforce keyboards I have been able to work on, the Novatouch is the one that feels and sounds the best once modded.
Here is my very unscientific way to evaluate the thickness of the landing pads: from this picture you can estimate that they are probably around or less than 1/5 of their original thickness, which is 1mm:
[attachimg=1]
And from this one you have a comparison with the thickness of the slider's edge, which is also around 1mm in thickness:
[attachimg=2]
There is no reason you can't get this as well.
Post by: Ngt on Mon, 23 February 2015, 01:27:54
At the beginning I left some water in the clothing iron so it threw water vapor on them while flattening them. After noticing it I just removed it and tried again but I had to do it for too long. How could you know the weight of the force you applied on the iron? Weren't you pushing with your hands?I started modding my Novatouch. Damn I had a hard time opening the board.
I tried to flatten the soft landing pads but it is way too long with my iron. I have to stay 4-5min pressing on each of them at full force even if the iron is at max power. Hence I came with a new idea:
I put the pads on the wood-burner at my parents with some weight over them to squeeze them for 4min. That's the time I need to make them ~0,3mm wide.
:)
After the "industrial" hair flat iron method, a few days ago, we have a new entry for the "Most Unexpected Way To Iron My Landing Pads" contest.
Now I think I'm ready to see anything involving a dragster, or an elephant! :)
What? A dragster AND an elephant? :eek:
Hint: they are going to reboot the LHC in a few days! :thumb:
Seriously, maybe 0.3mm is still not thin enough. I'm pretty sure you can shave a tenth of mm from that. 0.2mm would be much better.
I guess this yellow beverage has nothing to do with your keyboard and I'm even wondering if it's legal. :)
It took me so many hours for the whole operation. It took me pretty much 12 hours straight. I went to bed at 6:30am this morning. I think it is because it was my first time opening a board. I struggled at pretty much every step
In the end I must admit that the difference in noise is pretty clear. Damn that space bar is so smooth!
However I think my flattening method was ****. It feels like the pads took back some of their original thickness. I managed to put them between 0,2mm and 0,3mm (I just guess because I didn't have a ruler going lower than 1mm). They looked pretty slim though. When I woke up, I tried the board and the switch felt way more linear. I removed 2 pads from 2 plungers to compare and indeed they thickened. The nearby keys are lower than my stock reference keys when you look at their profile even though they are on the same row.
I'll have to try the industrial method. It seems faster than the clothing iron. How long did you have to use the clothing iron them to get the desired thickness? The idea of doing it all over again is not delighting. But I can't lose that tactility. There is no point in using Topre otherwise.
About that yellow beverage, it is called kefir and it is legal
OK, so probiotics (code name for alcool?) and mushrooms and you can't any work done, right? :))
Seriously, the problem you have must be the temperature. I'm surprised your clothing iron cannot get hot enough.
On the highest setting on mine (linen), the temperature was high enough to permanently slim the landing pads without melting them. I guess I must have been lucky. I pressed hard (5-10kg approximately) on the pads with the iron for 20 to 30 seconds.
Don't worry too much that you have to redo it. The same thing happened to me. Yes, you'll have to suffer the disassembly process all over again, and ironing the pads once again is a pain, but in the end this keyboard will be just perfect and 100% yours. Of all the Realforce keyboards I have been able to work on, the Novatouch is the one that feels and sounds the best once modded.
Here is my very unscientific way to evaluate the thickness of the landing pads: from this picture you can estimate that they are probably around or less than 1/5 of their original thickness, which is 1mm:
(Attachment Link)
And from this one you have a comparison with the thickness of the slider's edge, which is also around 1mm in thickness:
(Attachment Link)
There is no reason you can't get this as well.
Post by: spiceBar on Mon, 23 February 2015, 02:26:24
At the beginning I left some water in the clothing iron so it threw water vapor on them while flattening them. After noticing it I just removed it and tried again but I had to do it for too long. How could you know the weight of the force you applied on the iron? Weren't you pushing with your hands?
Yes, I was pushing with my hands. When I say "5 to 10kg", it's just to give you an idea, but it does not matter.
First, you need to work on a hard surface, like a wood board. Don't use the ironing board.
Then, you need to find 3 parameters:
- The iron's temperature
- The amount of pressure needed
- The duration
The temperature is the most important and easy to find: it's as hot as you can, but not as hot as to melt the pads. For a clothing iron, this may just be the highest temperature it can do.
The amount of pressure is probably just how hard you can press without being too tired at the end of the process (I had to repeat the ironing step 22 times, as I was ironing the pads 4 by 4). You also need to flatten the pads evenly: to achieve that, I had to press with various angles and change them all the time to make sure that every side of the pads was getting compressed for long enough.
The duration is how long you need to press on the pads with the iron in order to get them really thin, at 1/5 of their original width or even a little less. In my case, I pressed for 20-30 seconds, but maybe a shorter time would have worked if my iron had been hotter. However, if your iron is not hot enough, using a long time (say one minute or more) will not compensate. The pads will get back some of their thickness after some time, which is apparently happening in your case.
It sounds complicated, but you just keep your goal in mind and that should be enough: do whatever to flatten them to 1/5-1/6 of their original width, approximately.
It should not be necessary to press too hard on them or for too long: if so, the iron is not hot enough.
Use non-ironed pads as a reference and check them against every batch you have flattened.
Post by: Ngt on Mon, 23 February 2015, 03:19:21
At the beginning I left some water in the clothing iron so it threw water vapor on them while flattening them. After noticing it I just removed it and tried again but I had to do it for too long. How could you know the weight of the force you applied on the iron? Weren't you pushing with your hands?
Yes, I was pushing with my hands. When I say "5 to 10kg", it's just to give you an idea, but it does not matter.
First, you need to work on a hard surface, like a wood board. Don't use the ironing board.
Then, you need to find 3 parameters:
- The iron's temperature
- The amount of pressure needed
- The duration
The temperature is the most important and easy to find: it's as hot as you can, but not as hot as to melt the pads. For a clothing iron, this may just be the highest temperature it can do.
The amount of pressure is probably just how hard you can press without being too tired at the end of the process (I had to repeat the ironing step 22 times, as I was ironing the pads 4 by 4). You also need to flatten the pads evenly: to achieve that, I had to press with various angles and change them all the time to make sure that every side of the pads was getting compressed for long enough.
The duration is how long you need to press on the pads with the iron in order to get them really thin, at 1/5 of their original width or even a little less. In my case, I pressed for 20-30 seconds, but maybe a shorter time would have worked if my iron had been hotter. However, if your iron is not hot enough, using a long time (say one minute or more) will not compensate. The pads will get back some of their thickness after some time, which is apparently happening in your case.
It sounds complicated, but you just keep your goal in mind and that should be enough: do whatever to flatten them to 1/5-1/6 of their original width, approximately.
It should not be necessary to press too hard on them or for too long: if so, the iron is not hot enough.
Use non-ironed pads as a reference and check them against every batch you have flattened.
Alright I didn't know that doing it on the ironing table was not the way to go. I didn't do it on a hard surface I'm afraid. However I'm going to try the industrial method because the only hard wood surface I have at my place is my flatmate's table and he might not be happy if I iron on it. :)) Hopefully my girlfriend has a flat hair iron so I'll try with it. I'm looking forward to do it right this time. I'm writing on the NT, the sound is nice but it is all linear now :'( . I think I'll take some time to do it over the next weekend.
Thanks for the info Spice. ;)
Post by: spiceBar on Mon, 23 February 2015, 09:56:50
At the beginning I left some water in the clothing iron so it threw water vapor on them while flattening them. After noticing it I just removed it and tried again but I had to do it for too long. How could you know the weight of the force you applied on the iron? Weren't you pushing with your hands?
Yes, I was pushing with my hands. When I say "5 to 10kg", it's just to give you an idea, but it does not matter.
First, you need to work on a hard surface, like a wood board. Don't use the ironing board.
Then, you need to find 3 parameters:
- The iron's temperature
- The amount of pressure needed
- The duration
The temperature is the most important and easy to find: it's as hot as you can, but not as hot as to melt the pads. For a clothing iron, this may just be the highest temperature it can do.
The amount of pressure is probably just how hard you can press without being too tired at the end of the process (I had to repeat the ironing step 22 times, as I was ironing the pads 4 by 4). You also need to flatten the pads evenly: to achieve that, I had to press with various angles and change them all the time to make sure that every side of the pads was getting compressed for long enough.
The duration is how long you need to press on the pads with the iron in order to get them really thin, at 1/5 of their original width or even a little less. In my case, I pressed for 20-30 seconds, but maybe a shorter time would have worked if my iron had been hotter. However, if your iron is not hot enough, using a long time (say one minute or more) will not compensate. The pads will get back some of their thickness after some time, which is apparently happening in your case.
It sounds complicated, but you just keep your goal in mind and that should be enough: do whatever to flatten them to 1/5-1/6 of their original width, approximately.
It should not be necessary to press too hard on them or for too long: if so, the iron is not hot enough.
Use non-ironed pads as a reference and check them against every batch you have flattened.
Alright I didn't know that doing it on the ironing table was not the way to go. I didn't do it on a hard surface I'm afraid. However I'm going to try the industrial method because the only hard wood surface I have at my place is my flatmate's table and he might not be happy if I iron on it. :)) Hopefully my girlfriend has a flat hair iron so I'll try with it. I'm looking forward to do it right this time. I'm writing on the NT, the sound is nice but it is all linear now :'( . I think I'll take some time to do it over the next weekend.
Thanks for the info Spice. ;)
Well... You can't apply much pressure on the pads if they are on a soft surface like an ironing table...
If you don't have any flat surface that is able to withstand the temperature, maybe you can do it on the floor.
Post by: Ngt on Mon, 23 February 2015, 09:58:29
At the beginning I left some water in the clothing iron so it threw water vapor on them while flattening them. After noticing it I just removed it and tried again but I had to do it for too long. How could you know the weight of the force you applied on the iron? Weren't you pushing with your hands?
Yes, I was pushing with my hands. When I say "5 to 10kg", it's just to give you an idea, but it does not matter.
First, you need to work on a hard surface, like a wood board. Don't use the ironing board.
Then, you need to find 3 parameters:
- The iron's temperature
- The amount of pressure needed
- The duration
The temperature is the most important and easy to find: it's as hot as you can, but not as hot as to melt the pads. For a clothing iron, this may just be the highest temperature it can do.
The amount of pressure is probably just how hard you can press without being too tired at the end of the process (I had to repeat the ironing step 22 times, as I was ironing the pads 4 by 4). You also need to flatten the pads evenly: to achieve that, I had to press with various angles and change them all the time to make sure that every side of the pads was getting compressed for long enough.
The duration is how long you need to press on the pads with the iron in order to get them really thin, at 1/5 of their original width or even a little less. In my case, I pressed for 20-30 seconds, but maybe a shorter time would have worked if my iron had been hotter. However, if your iron is not hot enough, using a long time (say one minute or more) will not compensate. The pads will get back some of their thickness after some time, which is apparently happening in your case.
It sounds complicated, but you just keep your goal in mind and that should be enough: do whatever to flatten them to 1/5-1/6 of their original width, approximately.
It should not be necessary to press too hard on them or for too long: if so, the iron is not hot enough.
Use non-ironed pads as a reference and check them against every batch you have flattened.
Alright I didn't know that doing it on the ironing table was not the way to go. I didn't do it on a hard surface I'm afraid. However I'm going to try the industrial method because the only hard wood surface I have at my place is my flatmate's table and he might not be happy if I iron on it. :)) Hopefully my girlfriend has a flat hair iron so I'll try with it. I'm looking forward to do it right this time. I'm writing on the NT, the sound is nice but it is all linear now :'( . I think I'll take some time to do it over the next weekend.
Thanks for the info Spice. ;)
Well... You can't apply much pressure on the pads if they are on a soft surface like an ironing table...
If you don't have any flat surface that is able to withstand the temperature, maybe you can do it on the floor.
Well I think I'll just try the industrial method. I don't want to risk marking the floor especially since I'm renting this place but thanks for the input.
Post by: nubbinator on Mon, 23 February 2015, 10:42:02
Post by: spiceBar on Mon, 23 February 2015, 15:49:42
Has anyone tried silencing with liquid latex? Or would that not hold up well enough?
Someone talked about this idea once, but I have not heard of anyone actually trying it.
Post by: lwls on Mon, 23 February 2015, 16:05:48
Has anyone tried silencing with liquid latex? Or would that not hold up well enough?
The process wouldn't be as streamlined as flattening pads, but it would probably work - just a bit tedious.
Oobly has done it with MX switches. (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50632.msg1117334#msg1117334)
The right amount would also probably be a hard thing to get right...
Post by: BrewCaps on Mon, 23 February 2015, 16:24:25
Post by: nubbinator on Mon, 23 February 2015, 16:36:59
Post by: Snowdog993 on Tue, 24 February 2015, 02:24:58
Post by: Ngt on Tue, 24 February 2015, 02:30:42
How about just plain old silicone rubber? Make sure it's dry. Would that work?
go ahead try it and tell us! :D
Post by: Ngt on Tue, 24 February 2015, 04:49:39
(http://i.imgur.com/ZOkiPuM.jpg)
I cannot say if it is really 1/5 of the original size but it is definitely at least 1/3 or 1/4. It made it quick to see if it doesn't mark the floor and apparently it doesn't. The only problem is that I didn't clean the floor properly hence there were some little impurities which got in the way of the ironing process. The landing pad has some little bumps at different places. Next time I'll try to move the force applied on the iron so it doesn't reproduce.
EDIT: I put it at max temperature for 40s. It was stuck a bit on the folded paper sheet but it was easy to pick it up so I guess it is around the right temperature for it. I'm looking forward to do it properly this time. I feel that it is going to be just wonderful after that.
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 24 February 2015, 05:08:20
In the end I tried to iron on the floor as you suggest Spicebar and it seems that it makes wonders. Here is a picture of the result:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ZOkiPuM.jpg)
I cannot say if it is really 1/5 of the original size but it is definitely at least 1/3 or 1/4. It made it quick to see if it doesn't mark the floor and apparently it doesn't. The only problem is that I didn't clean the floor properly hence there were some little impurities which got in the way of the ironing process. The landing pad has some little bumps at different places. Next time I'll try to move the force applied on the iron so it doesn't reproduce.
EDIT: I put it at max temperature for 40s. It was stuck a bit on the folded paper sheet but it was easy to pick it up so I guess it is around the right temperature for it. I'm looking forward to do it properly this time. I feel that it is going to be just wonderful after that.
You're almost there. It should probably be a little thinner than on your picture, but from where I stand it's difficult to tell. :)
As I understand the picture was before your edit? Then after re-doing it you must be very close now. Yes, the pads sticking just a little bit to the paper is a good sign.
Post by: Ngt on Tue, 24 February 2015, 05:14:04
In the end I tried to iron on the floor as you suggest Spicebar and it seems that it makes wonders. Here is a picture of the result:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ZOkiPuM.jpg)
I cannot say if it is really 1/5 of the original size but it is definitely at least 1/3 or 1/4. It made it quick to see if it doesn't mark the floor and apparently it doesn't. The only problem is that I didn't clean the floor properly hence there were some little impurities which got in the way of the ironing process. The landing pad has some little bumps at different places. Next time I'll try to move the force applied on the iron so it doesn't reproduce.
EDIT: I put it at max temperature for 40s. It was stuck a bit on the folded paper sheet but it was easy to pick it up so I guess it is around the right temperature for it. I'm looking forward to do it properly this time. I feel that it is going to be just wonderful after that.
You're almost there. It should probably be a little thinner than on your picture, but from where I stand it's difficult to tell. :)
As I understand the picture was before your edit? Then after re-doing it you must be very close now. Yes, the pads sticking just a little bit to the paper is a good sign.
I edited to tell a bit more about my process as I forgot to do it when I first wrote the post. So the picture you see has been done at max temperature for 40s. I don't know if I need to be even lower than that. I think I'll try with a 40s one, put it back in the keyboard to see the result and I'll adjust from there. I'm afraid that if I go lower than that, it might be too much.
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 24 February 2015, 07:09:40
In the end I tried to iron on the floor as you suggest Spicebar and it seems that it makes wonders. Here is a picture of the result:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ZOkiPuM.jpg)
I cannot say if it is really 1/5 of the original size but it is definitely at least 1/3 or 1/4. It made it quick to see if it doesn't mark the floor and apparently it doesn't. The only problem is that I didn't clean the floor properly hence there were some little impurities which got in the way of the ironing process. The landing pad has some little bumps at different places. Next time I'll try to move the force applied on the iron so it doesn't reproduce.
EDIT: I put it at max temperature for 40s. It was stuck a bit on the folded paper sheet but it was easy to pick it up so I guess it is around the right temperature for it. I'm looking forward to do it properly this time. I feel that it is going to be just wonderful after that.
You're almost there. It should probably be a little thinner than on your picture, but from where I stand it's difficult to tell. :)
As I understand the picture was before your edit? Then after re-doing it you must be very close now. Yes, the pads sticking just a little bit to the paper is a good sign.
I edited to tell a bit more about my process as I forgot to do it when I first wrote the post. So the picture you see has been done at max temperature for 40s. I don't know if I need to be even lower than that. I think I'll try with a 40s one, put it back in the keyboard to see the result and I'll adjust from there. I'm afraid that if I go lower than that, it might be too much.
It will not be too thin. I think you need to make them a little bit thinner and it will be perfect.
But you are right, the best way to know is to try them inside the switches. That's how I would do it.
Post by: Ngt on Tue, 24 February 2015, 07:17:42
In the end I tried to iron on the floor as you suggest Spicebar and it seems that it makes wonders. Here is a picture of the result:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ZOkiPuM.jpg)
I cannot say if it is really 1/5 of the original size but it is definitely at least 1/3 or 1/4. It made it quick to see if it doesn't mark the floor and apparently it doesn't. The only problem is that I didn't clean the floor properly hence there were some little impurities which got in the way of the ironing process. The landing pad has some little bumps at different places. Next time I'll try to move the force applied on the iron so it doesn't reproduce.
EDIT: I put it at max temperature for 40s. It was stuck a bit on the folded paper sheet but it was easy to pick it up so I guess it is around the right temperature for it. I'm looking forward to do it properly this time. I feel that it is going to be just wonderful after that.
You're almost there. It should probably be a little thinner than on your picture, but from where I stand it's difficult to tell. :)
As I understand the picture was before your edit? Then after re-doing it you must be very close now. Yes, the pads sticking just a little bit to the paper is a good sign.
I edited to tell a bit more about my process as I forgot to do it when I first wrote the post. So the picture you see has been done at max temperature for 40s. I don't know if I need to be even lower than that. I think I'll try with a 40s one, put it back in the keyboard to see the result and I'll adjust from there. I'm afraid that if I go lower than that, it might be too much.
It will not be too thin. I think you need to make them a little bit thinner and it will be perfect.
But you are right, the best way to know is to try them inside the switches. That's how I would do it.
Yeah I'll try tonight. It will be a run against the clock this time. I don't want to spend as much time as I did last time, anyway I shouldn't. I figured out all the tricks now.
Post by: Snowdog993 on Tue, 24 February 2015, 10:24:40
How about just plain old silicone rubber? Make sure it's dry. Would that work?
go ahead try it and tell us! :D
I don't want or need to "silence" a keyboard whatsoever. If you are making "pads" you still could try making them from silicone. What you do is put a glob of it on wax paper, and use a squeegee to make it a consistent layer. Once it is dry you can cut out your "pads" and they would be the same thickness and consistency. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I didn't explain how I was thinking either.
Post by: Ngt on Tue, 24 February 2015, 16:43:19
How about just plain old silicone rubber? Make sure it's dry. Would that work?
go ahead try it and tell us! :D
I don't want or need to "silence" a keyboard whatsoever. If you are making "pads" you still could try making them from silicone. What you do is put a glob of it on wax paper, and use a squeegee to make it a consistent layer. Once it is dry you can cut out your "pads" and they would be the same thickness and consistency. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I didn't explain how I was thinking either.
Don't worry no hard feeling. I already bought the landing pads and I already half way through so I won't change the method for now. Where would buy such silicone?
Post by: Snowdog993 on Tue, 24 February 2015, 23:08:45
How about just plain old silicone rubber? Make sure it's dry. Would that work?
go ahead try it and tell us! :D
I don't want or need to "silence" a keyboard whatsoever. If you are making "pads" you still could try making them from silicone. What you do is put a glob of it on wax paper, and use a squeegee to make it a consistent layer. Once it is dry you can cut out your "pads" and they would be the same thickness and consistency. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I didn't explain how I was thinking either.
Don't worry no hard feeling. I already bought the landing pads and I already half way through so I won't change the method for now. Where would buy such silicone?
I suppose you could go to any hardware store that has it. It's just silicone!
Post by: Ngt on Wed, 25 February 2015, 03:22:44
How about just plain old silicone rubber? Make sure it's dry. Would that work?
go ahead try it and tell us! :D
I don't want or need to "silence" a keyboard whatsoever. If you are making "pads" you still could try making them from silicone. What you do is put a glob of it on wax paper, and use a squeegee to make it a consistent layer. Once it is dry you can cut out your "pads" and they would be the same thickness and consistency. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I didn't explain how I was thinking either.
Don't worry no hard feeling. I already bought the landing pads and I already half way through so I won't change the method for now. Where would buy such silicone?
I suppose you could go to any hardware store that has it. It's just silicone!
Fair enough I'll keep that in mind. Thank you. ;)
Post by: Snowdog993 on Wed, 25 February 2015, 09:27:28
I suppose you could go to any hardware store that has it. It's just silicone!
Fair enough I'll keep that in mind. Thank you. ;)
You must wait until it dries completely. It takes well over 24 hours for that to happen. Don't expect it to dry in an hour or so. It is very very very sticky when it is wet. Not a good thing. Once it is dry, you can do anything you like with it, including fabricating any size, shape, etc with it.
Post by: Ngt on Wed, 25 February 2015, 20:24:03
I finally did the mod again. I lost to much time trying different ironing time in the end I did it approximately (50s + 10s if I felt they needed it). The tactility is back but I wonder if there is a little difference with the stock Novatouch. I let 2 keys without the pads and I feel like when I use them that they are a bit snappier than the one with the pads. I wonder if I screwed up again or if it had to be a little difference no matter what.
I suppose you could go to any hardware store that has it. It's just silicone!
Fair enough I'll keep that in mind. Thank you. ;)
You must wait until it dries completely. It takes well over 24 hours for that to happen. Don't expect it to dry in an hour or so. It is very very very sticky when it is wet. Not a good thing. Once it is dry, you can do anything you like with it, including fabricating any size, shape, etc with it.
Cool good to know!