geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: namelessguy on Thu, 23 July 2009, 05:52:39
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I guess few would be interested in this, but anyway, a news.
http://www.fcl.fujitsu.com/release/2009/20090722.html
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/20090723_304223.html
And this article says it will be released in mid-August, and the price will be around 18,800 yen.
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What kind of switches will these have?
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What kind of switches will these have?
Well, it's got pretty unimpressive membrane switch with rubberdome-spring composite actuators on it, so I heard.
http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20070810/liber.htm
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What kind of switches will these have?
Poor man's Topres. At Filco prices. It would sound reasonably interesting if it cost about a quater of what it is.
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it's actually 35, 45, or 55, with all of the domes included. topre could learn from this.
other than that, nothing really stands out about this keyboard.
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Extra domes would refresh the BTC capacitive I have. That old thing suffers from worn out domes in the most used places (although it's all random since I cleaned it ) in groupings of 4. Having new 55g domes would rock but it doesn't look like I'd be doing it if the Libertouch isn't that interesting overall. My BTC has three weightings ("regular", space, and enter) but doesn't get much love nowadays.
Does anyone actually sell domes? Keycaps are available... Maybe domes should be too?
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Interesting. How old is that BTC? (my Topre is looking at me wondering why I'm asking).
I've had the BTC since "my first PC" .. I'd say it's about 16 years old. I stopped using it at least 10 years ago though, so dome wear happened within about 6 years.
The domes that saw little use are still going strong and pressing the keys gives you wonderful snappy dome feedback. The worn keys feel like mush. If you look at the pictures I took earlier, the domes are all open top and somewhat thin. In contrast, the Topre domes look (from the pics I've seen) nice and beefy and full up to the top so they'll most likely last longer.
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Woah, they must have some pretty crazy banks over there... ones with lots of money to spend on keyboards too...
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Thanks, just collecting data points. Someone else claimed some heavy bank users can wear out their Topres in a year.
HAHA...Maybe they shall try Cherry Double shot key cap....^_^
Hong Kong Customs officers use Cherry G80-1800 series keyboard with double shot key...I guess it's with black switches...
I bet they could still use it for another 10 years without changing any one of them.
BTW, This Libertouch has been sold in China for...um.. like months..
I got a short review about this in my forum.
However unfortuatedly it's in Chinese..
http://skyian.mine.nu/discuz/viewthread.php?tid=1058&extra=page%3D1
The price in China is about the same as Japan..
1300 RMB euqals 191 USD
The price in Japan is 17800yen
http://www.diatec.co.jp/shop/det.php?prod_c=544
17800 yen equals 187 USD
FYI ^_^
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what are double shot keys?
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what are double shot keys?
It's manufacturing process where a "hole" is left in the keycap where the legend goes and is filled with another color plastic, thus producing the completed key. Since it takes two injections of plastic to complete, the process is called double-shot molding. Here is an example: http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_mold.htm
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It's manufacturing process where a "hole" is left in the keycap where the legend goes and is filled with another color plastic, thus producing the completed key. Since it takes two injections of plastic to complete, the process is called double-shot molding. Here is an example: http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_mold.htm
thank you thank you =)
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Oh hey, I didn't notice earlier, but diatec not only sells the keyboard but also the extra domes too. Both in a light (http://www.diatec.co.jp/shop/det.php?prod_c=542) and heavy (http://www.diatec.co.jp/shop/det.php?prod_c=543) version. Hrm.... I wonder if majestouch can bring these over. Unfortunately I don't foresee much demand for them, especially on GH. There is much love of mechanical switches here.
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Two years ago, I was in Osaka and spent part of an afternoon trying out several high-end keyboards in the large "Yodobashi Camera" store. They had the Happy Hacking Professional as well as almost every model by Majestouch, Topre and the like.
For what it's worth, the Fujitsu Libertouch, which had just come out, was my favorite of the bunch (considering key feeling only), and I would have bought it on the spot if there had been an English layout version. The narrow space bar on Japanese keyboards drives me nuts.
Second-best was the HHKB Pro, but it's too minimalist for my taste. I want arrow keys and F-keys without having to chord.
Third was the Topre, but I found it a bit too mushy compared to the first two, and decided it wasn't worth the money. So I came out of the store empty-handed, and continued to use my good old Model M for two years. I emailed Fujitsu, asking them about a US-layout version of the Libertouch, but only ever received polite but noncommittal replies.
But now we have a baby, and since the computer is in the next room to his crib, I can't go CLACKETY-CLACK all night like I used to do. So I broke down and bought a Realforce 86U through a Japanese acquaintance who came to visit a few months ago. That's what I'm using now to type this message. I like it, but had I known the US-layout Libertouch was coming out, I would probably have waited this one out.
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Third was the Topre, but I found it a bit too mushy compared to the first two, and decided it wasn't worth the money.
How mushy was it? I guess this is one of the most intriguing questions for many who are curious about the Topre.
But now we have a baby, and since the computer is in the next room to his crib, I can't go CLACKETY-CLACK all night like I used to do. So I broke down and bought a Realforce 86U through a Japanese acquaintance who came to visit a few months ago. That's what I'm using now to type this message. I like it, but had I known the US-layout Libertouch was coming out, I would probably have waited this one out.
I can certainly understand your situation. I too have a baby and although she does not seem to be bothered by my keyboards sound, I have to think about her mother and her. My wife seems to be more "annoyed" by a loud keyboard. Thank God I have moved towards lighter keys. The blue switches don't seem to bother them at all. But in the future, for personal reasons, I may have to move my computer in the master bedroom and I am hence considering if I should get a brown switches or a Topre. This is one reason (among others) which made me ask the question above.
How does a Topre keyboard feel is a quesiton which comes on a lot. I think it's because people like me would like to know more and know that each person's experience is very subjective. So, we try to gather as many "reviews" as we can to try to make the best decision.
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I don't think I've tried a rubber dome board as good as when my BTC was new. More tactile than the Cherry Browns, quiet like domes, and even helps pop your fingers back up a little. The only other dome I liked was a mid generation MS ergonomic. It had the proper layout + multimedia keys, not the condensed layout like the later ones.
There's a lot of nostalgia with my BTC so I judge a lot of key feel against that board (or at least my memories of key feel on that board).
Well, if the Libertouch is a decent price, I just might pick one up or at least find one that I can test drive for a few minutes to see how it goes.
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How mushy was it? I guess this is one of the most intriguing questions for many who are curious about the Topre.
How does a Topre keyboard feel is a quesiton which comes on a lot. I think it's because people like me would like to know more and know that each person's experience is very subjective. So, we try to gather as many "reviews" as we can to try to make the best decision.
I read a lot of reviews here before buying new keyboards, but I decided that I just needed to spend some money (what I could afford) and simply try them out for myself.
I wonder if the mush feeling is noticeable more because of a comparison to a terse or crisp mechanical action, or whether the domes are more mush than other domes. I've felt (even when new) some keyboards with near linear action rubber domes, and some like my BTC (when new) quick and bouncy.
I mention my old BTC many times - The well used domes have noticeably less tactile feeling than the lesser used ones. They are really nice and bouncy - good unambiguous action - and some which are sort of like a softer than cherry brown feel (almost linear). I'm also afraid that a Libertouch will also wear out its domes and end up like my BTC but at least the domes are for sale.
Since I have a new Logitech rubber dome (the "Internet 350", IIRC) at the office, I can compare that with my BTC "good domes" ... The BTC good domes definitely have more feel than the new Logitech. The 350 is a cheap keyboard and feels that way. I'm afraid that a Topre will feel more like the 350 than the BTC but I hope it's really the other way around. Since I have a preference for heavier keys, if I got a Topre, I would really like one with a fixed set of 55g (was it 50 or 55?) domes rather than the staggered one.
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I read a lot of reviews here before buying new keyboards, but I decided that I just needed to spend some money (what I could afford) and simply try them out for myself.
I admit trying a keyboard in person is the best way to form an opinion. But, this is not always possible. Sometimes, it's because the try out can be very expensive and there is always a possibility of disappointment.
I wish the Japanese situation existed in North America. Japan seems to have a market for quality keyboards. I don't think there is a store in Canada which carries good mechanical keyboards. Logitech and Microsoft seem to be the ones which most stores carry. And then there are the less known cheap rubber domes keyboard and the ones which come with new computers.
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How mushy was it? I guess this is one of the most intriguing questions for many who are curious about the Topre.
The Topre registers a keypress earlier than a Model M (that is, one doesn't need to press the key as far), and the tactile feedback is not as pronounced. Since my fingers are used to a stiffer keyboard, I tend to bottom out, especially on the lighter-weighed keys, and that's what produces the "mushy" feeling. I suppose I might change my opinion after developing the "light touch" others are taking about.
Let me add that this is "mushy" compared to a Model M, and that, as someone who is rather picky about keyboards, I am globally satisfied with the Topre. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.
The best keyboard I have ever used in my life is the one on a Canon AP810 electronic typewriter. It's difficult to translate in mere words the transcendent goodness of that keyboard, but it feels like, when the key passes its actuation point, it will jump back by itself, giving your finger a tiny little push upwards. The keyboard feels alive under my fingers like no other I've tried.
Sometimes I dream of asking a hardware wizard to engineer a USB adapter for the AP810 keyboard...
Soundwise, the Topre is very satisfactory. It is much less noisy than some Youtube clips might lead you to believe, and the sound is quite pleasant.
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I don't think there is a store in Canada which carries good mechanical keyboards. Logitech and Microsoft seem to be the ones which most stores carry. And then there are the less known cheap rubber domes keyboard and the ones which come with new computers.
Pretty much the same here. If you want something good, you basically have to order it online.
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The Topre registers a keypress earlier than a Model M (that is, one doesn't need to press the key as far), and the tactile feedback is not as pronounced. Since my fingers are used to a stiffer keyboard, I tend to bottom out, especially on the lighter-weighed keys, and that's what produces the "mushy" feeling. I suppose I might change my opinion after developing the "light touch" others are taking about.
Let me add that this is "mushy" compared to a Model M, and that, as someone who is rather picky about keyboards, I am globally satisfied with the Topre. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.
The best keyboard I have ever used in my life is the one on a Canon AP810 electronic typewriter. It's difficult to translate in mere words the transcendent goodness of that keyboard, but it feels like, when the key passes its actuation point, it will jump back by itself, giving your finger a tiny little push upwards. The keyboard feels alive under my fingers like no other I've tried.
Sometimes I dream of asking a hardware wizard to engineer a USB adapter for the AP810 keyboard...
Soundwise, the Topre is very satisfactory. It is much less noisy than some Youtube clips might lead you to believe, and the sound is quite pleasant.
Thanks for the description. Very nice written in my opinion.
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The best keyboard I have ever used in my life is the one on a Canon AP810 electronic typewriter. It's difficult to translate in mere words the transcendent goodness of that keyboard, but it feels like, when the key passes its actuation point, it will jump back by itself, giving your finger a tiny little push upwards. The keyboard feels alive under my fingers like no other I've tried.
Interesting. Seems like Canon holds multiple key switch patents (http://www.google.com/patents?q=key+switch+canon&btnG=Search+Patents). Those may be worth investigating.
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The Topre registers a keypress earlier than a Model M (that is, one doesn't need to press the key as far), and the tactile feedback is not as pronounced.
Is there a tactile bump which at least let you know when the key has fired?
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Getting my Realforce boards any day now. Can't wait to try them now that I am getting used to the Blue Cherry's (http://www.fentek-ind.com/kbmmacbub.htm).
It is just too bad that shipping is so expensive, or we could put together a test kit ( I know, it has been suggested before). I think that the main problem would be that you really have to commit some time with a board to really understand what you do and do not like. Walking up to a board in a store and pecking out a few keystrokes really doesn't do any real justice.
Also, I checked into the Libertouch, and the keyboard seems to fit somewhere towards the top of the membrane keyboard line, but priced a little more exclusively. Will be interesting to have a few reviews here though.
Later..........
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Considering the bad press it gets around here, I'd be suprised to see if anyone decides to cough up for one...
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Walking up to a board in a store and pecking out a few keystrokes really doesn't do any real justice.
I totally agree with what you said. But, sometimes being able to at least try one is better than taking a shot in the dark, although like you said, a quick try does not always tell you if you'll like it in a month or two. At the beiginning, I found the keys on the G80 to be too slippery. But over time, I learn that I can actually use this "feature" to move quickly from one key to another and my speed increased.
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Is there a tactile bump which at least let you know when the key has fired?
There is one, but it's quite muted compared to the Model M. Also, it's practically nonexistent on the 35g-weighted keys.