geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: spremino on Mon, 01 December 2014, 08:45:02
-
I like buckling springs but they are too noisy for my taste, and I lack the patience to make any "muffle mod". Thus I am considering alternatives.
After extensive research, it seems to me that Cherry Clears are the most tactile among stiff non-clicky switches, and they are widely available in Europe (thanks to Cherry).
Besides Cherry Clears, I have considered a Dell AT102W as well - if I can find one - but I have read that its key caps are ABS, and I dislike key caps that get shiny quickly.
Any other alternative should be easily available in ISO layout.
--
EDIT: Clarified how buckling spring compare to Cherry Clears
Thanks for your advice.
-
Clears really don't feel much like buckling spring at all. They're also a little lighter. There's a definitive snap at the actuation point with buckling springs that you don't get really with any Cherry switch (possibly Greens, but I've never tried them). You're not going to get the same feel in a Cherry switch.
That being said, if you're considering Alps, you might look into a Matias Quiet Pro (which are really quiet). Not sure about the ISO layout though.
-
Since you're in EU, your best bet is probably The Keyboard Co, and it looks like they have the Quiet Pro in several European layouts:
http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_search.asp?SR=matias%20quiet%20pro&UI=matias.ca
-
I personally find that clicky Alps (typically white or blue) feel more like buckling spring than any of the others. The drawback is they aren't really any quieter.
-
Clears really don't feel much like buckling spring at all.
Right. I meant that they are reported to be the most tactile among stiff non-clicky switches (I have edited my original post to clarify).
I am not looking for a buckling spring feel necessarily, but I need the tactile feel. For example, I like the tactility of the keyboard on my Thinkpad, but the short travel makes me bottom out too often.
Unfortunately the Matias has small Windows keys and I fear that it comes with ABS key caps, but thanks for your suggestion anyway.
-
Then yeah, a Cherry Clear or Gray would probably be your best bet (Grays are stiffer Clears). Currently WASD keyboards has ISO boards w/ Clears in stock:
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/mechanical-keyboard/wasd-v2-88-key-iso-custom-mechanical-keyboard.html
You would just have to swap out the keys with a PBT set.
-
they're the only mx switches i like, i don't tend to use buckling springs because they're so loud
-
All Cherry mx switches share the characteristic of increasing force past the actuation through the entire displacement to bottoming out. Some, such as browns and clears, have grafted a cam onto the switch stem to give the impression of a tactile bump. In contrast, IBM buckling spring switches undergo compression until a catastrophic collapse of the spring, which is accompanied by a vertical drop in force. Because of these differences in mechanism and force-displacement behavior, no Cherry mx switch feels like an IBM buckling spring (either membrane Model M or capacitive Model F).
Next to the IBM Model F capacitive buckling spring, my own preference is the Topre switch, especially the 55g variety. This involves increasing force until the rubber dome collapses, with decreasing force until nearly reaching the bottom of the displacement. The feeling is similar to that of tripping a weighted piano key.
If I were not able to use an IBM Model F or Topre keyboard, my next choice would be Matias tactile/click switches. If it had to be relatively quiet, I would go with Matias tactile silent switches. Other possibilities (but available only in vintage boards) would be Monterey blues, orange, black or white Alps, or NMB Hi-Tek "space invader" black or white switches.
-
Why do you want to go for a non-clickey switch? There are clicky switches that are quieter than a Model M. I'd recommend scouring eBay for a cheap old Alps style board. You can usually find the Chicony 5181 going for ~$30 plus shipping. It's the most tactile non buckling spring board I've ever used, though it's not exactly quiet either.
-
All Cherry mx switches share the characteristic of increasing force past the actuation through the entire displacement to bottoming out. Some, such as browns and clears, have grafted a cam onto the switch stem to give the impression of a tactile bump. In contrast, IBM buckling spring switches undergo compression until a catastrophic collapse of the spring, which is accompanied by a vertical drop in force. Because of these differences in mechanism and force-displacement behavior, no Cherry mx switch feels like an IBM buckling spring (either membrane Model M or capacitive Model F).
Next to the IBM Model F capacitive buckling spring, my own preference is the Topre switch, especially the 55g variety. This involves increasing force until the rubber dome collapses, with decreasing force until nearly reaching the bottom of the displacement. The feeling is similar to that of tripping a weighted piano key.
If I were not able to use an IBM Model F or Topre keyboard, my next choice would be Matias tactile/click switches. If it had to be relatively quiet, I would go with Matias tactile silent switches. Other possibilities (but available only in vintage boards) would be Monterey blues, orange, black or white Alps, or NMB Hi-Tek "space invader" black or white switches.
Um... no. The tactile point is lower on buckling springs, but there is still spring resistance after the collapse, just as there is on MX Clears, although you're right about them feeling different. After the tactile bump (and it is a true tactile bump), Clears have a decent drop in force, albeit less than BS switches, and then the spring force increases more strongly.
Topre are about as far from BS that you can get, IMHO. The tactile point is right at the top, instead of near the bottom and they're much softer.
I'd say if you want something as similar as possible, but quiet, without doing mods, Matias Quiet Click switches are your best bet, although they are also softer than BS.
-
Why do you want to go for a non-clickey switch? There are clicky switches that are quieter than a Model M. I'd recommend scouring eBay for a cheap old Alps style board. You can usually find the Chicony 5181 going for ~$30 plus shipping. It's the most tactile non buckling spring board I've ever used, though it's not exactly quiet either.
Actually, I am not after a quiet keyboard, but buckling springs are too loud.
I would consider an old Alps keyboard, but I also have the requirement of non-ABS key caps (otherwise the Dell AT102W would have been a choice). Thanks for your suggestion, though.
Going for Clears with PBT or POM is the easy way, because I can pick a G80-3000.
-
All Cherry mx switches share the characteristic of increasing force past the actuation through the entire displacement to bottoming out. Some, such as browns and clears, have grafted a cam onto the switch stem to give the impression of a tactile bump. In contrast, IBM buckling spring switches undergo compression until a catastrophic collapse of the spring, which is accompanied by a vertical drop in force. Because of these differences in mechanism and force-displacement behavior, no Cherry mx switch feels like an IBM buckling spring (either membrane Model M or capacitive Model F).
Next to the IBM Model F capacitive buckling spring, my own preference is the Topre switch, especially the 55g variety. This involves increasing force until the rubber dome collapses, with decreasing force until nearly reaching the bottom of the displacement. The feeling is similar to that of tripping a weighted piano key.
If I were not able to use an IBM Model F or Topre keyboard, my next choice would be Matias tactile/click switches. If it had to be relatively quiet, I would go with Matias tactile silent switches. Other possibilities (but available only in vintage boards) would be Monterey blues, orange, black or white Alps, or NMB Hi-Tek "space invader" black or white switches.
Um... no. The tactile point is lower on buckling springs, but there is still spring resistance after the collapse, just as there is on MX Clears, although you're right about them feeling different. After the tactile bump (and it is a true tactile bump), Clears have a decent drop in force, albeit less than BS switches, and then the spring force increases more strongly.
Topre are about as far from BS that you can get, IMHO. The tactile point is right at the top, instead of near the bottom and they're much softer.
I'd say if you want something as similar as possible, but quiet, without doing mods, Matias Quiet Click switches are your best bet, although they are also softer than BS.
It seems we are actually in agreement about the tactile points.
On the Model M at least, the tactile point and the actuation point occur at about the same distance along the force-displacement curve, which is at about 2.3 mm out of a total displacment of about 4 mm. In an mx clear switch, the tactile bump reaches a peak at about 1.2 mm out of 4 mm, a trough at about 1.9 mm, and the actuation point occurs at about 2 mm. Is this what you mean? That is, that the tactile point/actuation point of the buckling spring occurs when the switch is depressed farther than is the case with the mx clear? If so, then it seems we are in agreement.
To me, the "feel" of the buckling spring is "cleaner" than the feel of the mx clear switch. Perhaps this is due to the sudden collapse of the buckling spring and the fact that this tactile point coincides with actuation, whereas the tactile bump in the mx clear occurs over a broader range of the displacement.
Despite the differences between buckling springs and Topres, these are the two switches that I find the most satisfying out of all that I have tried. To me, they have a definitive and precise feel. In particular, I like the capacitive buckling spring switches found in Model F keyboards and the 55g Topres found in RF 87u keyboards.
-
If you've have the budget, maybe one of the ISO WASD keyboards. Could always mod clear stems with green springs?
-
Haven't specifically tried clears, so I can't make a judgement on those. From my experiences, however, BS is definitely my favorite switch type, followed by black space invaders and SMK alps-mount (monterey blues). Black ALPS (if in good condition) are alright, but I just really need me some tactile and audible feedback. Maybe if i tried a cherry red I would like it, but I feel that yellow alps were to fatiguing to me.
-
Black ALPS (if in good condition) are alright, but I just really need me some tactile and audible feedback.
AFAIK, Black ALPS are tactile.
-
The good ones I used felt like it, the board I own feels scratchy and linear. Both from Dell at101w.
-
The good ones I used felt like it, the board I own feels scratchy and linear. Both from Dell at101w.
Interesting. Was your AT101W NIB?
-
Black ALPS (if in good condition) are alright, but I just really need me some tactile and audible feedback.
AFAIK, Black ALPS are tactile.
Black Alps are tactile, but the bump is more of a mild hump elongated throughout the keystroke and not super noticeable.
-
MX greens will probably be the closest you can get to buckling spring in terms of weight and feel. As for a quieter switch, white alps might fit the bill
-
The good ones I used felt like it, the board I own feels scratchy and linear. Both from Dell at101w.
Interesting. Was your AT101W NIB?
Both I got for free not NIB (think they were used at a school). I sold the good feeling one to a friend who uses it at work (same place I do) so I can still type on it for comparison. The other one (witch is black) I kept and it feels pretty bleh. I would like to transplant keys onto it at some point.
-
I am primarily an Ergo Clears user, but I use BS on my Model M, and they are nothing alike. Clears have a clean bump, are nice and stiff, and don't take to much effort to actuate. Buckling Springs on the other hand, are a little bit dirty and scratchy, sometimes take different forces to actuate, and are pretty heavy. They are both great for typing though, and buckling springs are very loud, and clears are virtually silent if you use O-Rings or try not to bottom out.
-
I think it can be more or less summarized by saying that buckling springs feel like adult tools and cherry switches feel like baby toys.
-
Can't stand non clicky switches myself. Closest Cherry switch to buckling spring to me is MX Greens, just because of the weight and clicky-tactile-ness. But as described above, the overall feel of the switch is not the same.
-
I am primarily an Ergo Clears user, but I use BS on my Model M, and they are nothing alike. Clears have a clean bump, are nice and stiff, and don't take to much effort to actuate. Buckling Springs on the other hand, are a little bit dirty and scratchy, sometimes take different forces to actuate, and are pretty heavy. They are both great for typing though, and buckling springs are very loud, and clears are virtually silent if you use O-Rings or try not to bottom out.
Yes, before I discovered Model F buckling springs, I thought that my IBM SSK was the greatest keyboard ever. I still like my SSK, but compared to my IBM XT, the SSK feels scratchy. The XT is smooth, precise, staccato clicky -- and surprisingly light. Because I like to bottom out, I find clears to be exhausting -- they have a steep increasing force slope past the actuation point -- this is great for learning not to bottom out, but otherwise I find that I am fighting the switch. I actually find greens less fatiguing than clears.
-
I am a full-time Model M user, with quite a large collection of MX keyboards to play with. I also thought Clears would be a good match for the Model M's buckling springs, but no way. I really disliked MX Clears. I have not yet tried to make them Ergo, but I will.
The closest I have come to proper B/S feel are MX Greens, but I find them tiring to use for extended periods. So for home use, I am back to MX Browns with low-profile keycaps. The sound and feel is, well, similar to B/S. For brief periods, I use Greens, which feel more like B/S, but my primary home keyboard remains a Leopold TKL with MX Browns.
Good luck!
- Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
-
I am a full-time Model M user, with quite a large collection of MX keyboards to play with. I also thought Clears would be a good match for the Model M's buckling springs, but no way. I really disliked MX Clears. I have not yet tried to make them Ergo, but I will.
The closest I have come to proper B/S feel are MX Greens, but I find them tiring to use for extended periods. So for home use, I am back to MX Browns with low-profile keycaps. The sound and feel is, well, similar to B/S. For brief periods, I use Greens, which feel more like B/S, but my primary home keyboard remains a Leopold TKL with MX Browns.
Good luck!
- Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
Interesting. I really wanted to like Cherry mx switches, but they just don't do it for me. Nevertheless, after selling off all my Cherry mx keyboards, I still wanted something other than my Novatouch for my Cherry keycap collection. While there seems to be more cache attached to mx clears (or perhaps anything but dull old browns), I have ended up with a WASD barebones with mx browns for my one and only Cherry mx board!
-
Interesting. I really wanted to like Cherry mx switches, but they just don't do it for me. Nevertheless, after selling off all my Cherry mx keyboards, I still wanted something other than my Novatouch for my Cherry keycap collection. While there seems to be more cache attached to mx clears (or perhaps anything but dull old browns), I have ended up with a WASD barebones with mx browns for my one and only Cherry mx board!
Good choice. What keycaps? I like Imsto low-profile PBT on WASD keyboards.
- Ron | samwisekoi
Sig auto-typed by my GH36 LH keypad.
-
@samwisekoi, Good choice! I put a blend of two sets of Imsto dye-sub PBT caps on my WASD board (blue alphanumerics with gray-pebble mods). I just got my Granite set; I may try that next.
-
MX whites are another possiblity. They're essentially quieter versions of greens. The sound isn't the same level from every switch, but you won't find any whites that are louder or as loud as a green switch.
If greens are like popping bubble wrap, whites sound like rain drops gently hitting a window.
-
If greens are like popping bubble wrap, whites sound like rain drops gently hitting a window.
What a soothing mental representation! Therefore I would go for Cherry Whites, but a Cherry keyboard with Clears and PBT or POM can be had inexpensively.
-
Why do you want to go for a non-clickey switch? There are clicky switches that are quieter than a Model M. I'd recommend scouring eBay for a cheap old Alps style board. You can usually find the Chicony 5181 going for ~$30 plus shipping. It's the most tactile non buckling spring board I've ever used, though it's not exactly quiet either.
Actually, I am not after a quiet keyboard, but buckling springs are too loud.
I would consider an old Alps keyboard, but I also have the requirement of non-ABS key caps (otherwise the Dell AT102W would have been a choice). Thanks for your suggestion, though.
Going for Clears with PBT or POM is the easy way, because I can pick a G80-3000.
If you do go that route I highly recommend rather getting the black version with POM caps and then install a backing plate to increase the stiffness. The lighter colour one has THIN PBT caps and they don't feel great, the black one has THICK POM caps that feel mush better. Also, the PCB is very flexible and doesn't have enough supports inside the case, so some kind of plate to stiffen it up is needed, otherwise it feels... like loosely mounted bendy PCB with switches mounted on it.
-
If you do go that route I highly recommend rather getting the black version with POM caps and then install a backing plate to increase the stiffness. The lighter colour one has THIN PBT caps and they don't feel great, the black one has THICK POM caps that feel mush better.
Thanks for your suggestion BECAUSE otherwise I would rather have picked the lighter colour model for its PBT key caps.
Also, the PCB is very flexible and doesn't have enough supports inside the case, so some kind of plate to stiffen it up is needed, otherwise it feels... like loosely mounted bendy PCB with switches mounted on it.
Thanks for this suggestion, too. For those interested, I have found that the easiest way of performing such mod is described here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=13165
-
Clears really don't feel much like buckling spring at all.
Right. I meant that they are reported to be the most tactile among stiff non-clicky switches (I have edited my original post to clarify).
I am not looking for a buckling spring feel necessarily, but I need the tactile feel. For example, I like the tactility of the keyboard on my Thinkpad, but the short travel makes me bottom out too often.
Unfortunately the Matias has small Windows keys and I fear that it comes with ABS key caps, but thanks for your suggestion anyway.
I have clears on this keyboard. If you like BS then stay away from them. They're kind of awful. So far, MX Clears are my least favorite mechanical keyswitch. I much prefer buckling springs, but I'd have to do some serious electrical work to make one programmable and fit into a sane amount of space. Some day I may have to do just that. Blues don't feel like BS either, but they feel crisp, and you can feel confident when you've pressed a key, much like BS.