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geekhack Community => Reviews => Topic started by: osi on Fri, 05 December 2014, 14:49:10
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Hello geekhack. Last year I had the pleasure of picking up the HHKB Pro 2 - Type-S. While I've lauded the HHKB in various other threads around the forum, I've not yet given a thorough review of the product as a whole. I feel that after a solid year in use as my daily driver, it's time for a proper assessment.
Like many others before me, I read up as much as I could about the HHKB mainly via geekhack forums. Bottom line, one will never know how a board will feel or perform until it is in your possession. Reading and reading about others' experiences simply fueled my fire until finally I caved and bought one--et nous voici donc.
[attach=1]
Pros :
- 60%
- Symmetrical and aesthetically pleasing
- Topre
- Intuitive function layer
- Proper location for the 'Control' key
- Backspace placement above enter
- DIP switches
- Excellent stock keycaps
- Back legs have 2 angle options
Cons :
- USB hub not necessary
- ABS space bar
- Some keys have minor alignment problems
- No black case option for the Type-S
- I don't have multiple yet
Personally, the flaws listed above are non-factors to me but they are flaws none-the-less
[attach=2]
Starting from the research phase, to making the purchase, and now after a year of use, my experience with this board has been great. I affectionately refer to the board as "my baby" and no other keyboard thus far has been able to take its place.
After receiving the board, of course I dove right in and it was love at first type. I can't recall exactly but I'll say it took about a week to accommodate to the function layer. The arrow keys were the easiest to grasp while the home, end, pg up, pg down locations took slightly more time to get used to. The function layer is very intuitive and after some use, it has easily worked its way into my muscle memory.
[attach=3]
The break in period lasted about a month, maybe less. I use computer for my job and type quite frequently during the work day and I thoroughly enjoyed this phase. The key press feel is good out of the box but once broken in, the feel even improves, as one would expect. Tactile feel with butter smooth movement all while feeling like a miniature piano key is the best way I can put the feeling into words. Over the past year, there has been no dramatic change in terms of the keypress feel that I could tell.
[attach=4]
Before exploring the world of mechanical keyboards, out of habit I've always used keyboards with the legs extended and so naturally, I extended the HHKB legs and used the board this way for ~6 months. Toward the end of my "extended leg" phase, my wrists and hands began to bother me with discomfort. I took this to the ergonomic section and it was suggested to lay the board flat and even after further discussion, I've placed some cardboard under the board to eliminate the negative angle. Placing the board like this greatly eased my discomfort and fatigue and provided a much more enjoyable experience. To be clear, the board did not directly cause my issues--I was simply working too many long hours . Thanks to other members here with great suggestions and forcing myself to take breaks (away from a keyboard), my carpals have been far less aggravated and have mostly returned back to normal. I'm forever grateful for the knowledge of the members here in regards to the health of my wrists.
I've had no problems with the board moving around or sliding while typing unless I intentionally move my board--exactly how I like it. No need for more grip on the feet or larger surface area for the grips as they work just fine as is. The case could be a TOUCH heavier but otherwise no complaints here either. Adding weight diminishes the portability factor and I do carry my board around.
[attach=5]
DIP settings activated on my board :
1 - ON (HHKB Lt. Ext mode) [In conjunction with switch 2 set to OFF]
3 - ON (Delete becomes backspace ; fn + backspace becomes delete)
6 - ON (Wake up enabled)
All others set to OFF.
Future plans :
- Proper lubing
- Hasu's controller
- Debadging
[attach=6]
Using this keyboard has been a dream. As listed in my 'Cons' above, I wish I had more than one board and I will eventually. Thanks to geekhack for the wealth of information that led to this purchase and year of pleasurable typing. Also a thank you to Hoggy and the others over in the ergonomic forum for saving my hands and wrists :D
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Thanks for the nice review! Have you tried a standard HHKB Pro 2? If so, how do you like it compared to the type-S?
As for me, I started with the standard model and very recently I tried the Type-S. Just about the only negative for me with the standard model is the "clack" of the keys on the return stroke. The Type-S attenuates the clack, but I am not sure I like the sound and feel of the Type-S. I also like having a black case with the standard model (and I leave the mods black, but I replaced the black alphanumeric keys with printed white ones).
Another small negative is the USB hub, as you have pointed out. I don't use the hub, and having it causes my Mac not to recognize the keyboard, although in actual use this does't seem to matter.
There are only two other things I might wish to change about the HHKB Pro 2. First, it might be nice to have 55g switches; I can try this out with a dome swap. Second, it might be nice to have plate-mounted switches instead of case-mounted switches; this would require PFU to come out with a plate-mounted version if there were ever a HHKB Pro 3. However, these two revisions might actually result in having a negative impact on the sound and feel of the keyboard. On the other hand, I really like my RF 87ub 55g with its plate-mounted 55g Topre switches.
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Nice little review osi! I can agree with most of your points, the only things I would prefer is a heavier case for mine. I would definitely recommend lubing, I just lubed mine a few days ago and it feels even better (didn't know it was possible).
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I actually use both usb hubs. At night, I plug in two USB LEDs for cozy lighting and sometimes I use it for USB->3,3V to power some quick minor prototype.
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One more thing about the Type-S that actually has me questioning whether I like it as well as my standard HHKB Pro 2 or my RF 87ub 55g: the sound and feel of the keys on the Type-S are as if the sliders were wrapped in tissue paper.
While I like the fact that the clack noise has been attenuated, I also prefer a more definitive and solid sound and feel such as I get from the RF 87ub 55g.
Some people report that they prefer the dental band mod over the Type-S. I will just have to try this for myself to know which version I prefer.
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I'm so glad I saw this thread. I was in the process of purchasing a topre. Now I'm in a new dillema, buy a type S or save the money for parts to customize it! It's so hard!
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I'm so glad I saw this thread. I was in the process of purchasing a topre. Now I'm in a new dillema, buy a type S or save the money for parts to customize it! It's so hard!
Similar results can be achieved with a dental band mod - if you want to open your new HHKB.
OTOH some Type-S HHKB have exhibited whistling, which a few people have experienced. This is not something that happens with a "noisy" HHKB, or one with the dental band mod in place.
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Thanks for the nice review! Have you tried a standard HHKB Pro 2? If so, how do you like it compared to the type-S?
As for me, I started with the standard model and very recently I tried the Type-S. Just about the only negative for me with the standard model is the "clack" of the keys on the return stroke. The Type-S attenuates the clack, but I am not sure I like the sound and feel of the Type-S. I also like having a black case with the standard model (and I leave the mods black, but I replaced the black alphanumeric keys with printed white ones).
Another small negative is the USB hub, as you have pointed out. I don't use the hub, and having it causes my Mac not to recognize the keyboard, although in actual use this does't seem to matter.
There are only two other things I might wish to change about the HHKB Pro 2. First, it might be nice to have 55g switches; I can try this out with a dome swap. Second, it might be nice to have plate-mounted switches instead of case-mounted switches; this would require PFU to come out with a plate-mounted version if there were ever a HHKB Pro 3. However, these two revisions might actually result in having a negative impact on the sound and feel of the keyboard. On the other hand, I really like my RF 87ub 55g with its plate-mounted 55g Topre switches.
Negative. I have not yet had the pleasure of typing on an HHKB Pro 2 nor 55 gram Topres so I cannot compare :(
Nice little review osi! I can agree with most of your points, the only things I would prefer is a heavier case for mine. I would definitely recommend lubing, I just lubed mine a few days ago and it feels even better (didn't know it was possible).
I think my board is broken in well enough for a nice lube. Glad to hear the lube did you well!
I'm so glad I saw this thread. I was in the process of purchasing a topre. Now I'm in a new dillema, buy a type S or save the money for parts to customize it! It's so hard!
I was in the same dilemma a year ago. I would have never been satisfied not knowing I had the Type-S so I saved a bit more for it and I have no regrets!
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I'm so glad I saw this thread. I was in the process of purchasing a topre. Now I'm in a new dillema, buy a type S or save the money for parts to customize it! It's so hard!
I don't know if you are dead set on the HHKB, but I recommend the FC660C. It feels more solid to me (I am partial to the layout as well), and doesn't slide around on the desk near as much. The HHKB is the best there is if the layout is what you desire.
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I'm so glad I saw this thread. I was in the process of purchasing a topre. Now I'm in a new dillema, buy a type S or save the money for parts to customize it! It's so hard!
I don't know if you are dead set on the HHKB, but I recommend the FC660C. It feels more solid to me (I am partial to the layout as well), and doesn't slide around on the desk near as much. The HHKB is the best there is if the layout is what you desire.
I tend to agree. The FC660C was my first Topre board, and I very much appreciated its solidity and typing sound and feel. However, I didn't like the stock keycaps on the first version and at the time it was difficult to find replacement keycaps. In addition, the layout was not quite what I wanted.
Then I got the HHKB Pro 2, and I instantly liked just about everything about it, especially the form factor and layout, but also the dye-sub PBT keycaps. However, I have never quite adjusted to the hollow "plasticky" sound. Recently, I got the Type-S, but it sounds and feels as if the sliders are wrapped in tissue paper.
Now the keyboard I use most often is a RF 87ub 55g. It sounds and feels solid, and provides excellent tactile feedback. It looks, sounds, and feels like I am getting my money's worth from this keyboard. However, I do prefer the form factor and layout of the HHKB Pro 2.
Given this experience, the hypothetical ideal keyboard for me would be the HHKB Pro 2, but with plate-mounted 55g Topre switches.
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I'm so glad I saw this thread. I was in the process of purchasing a topre. Now I'm in a new dillema, buy a type S or save the money for parts to customize it! It's so hard!
I don't know if you are dead set on the HHKB, but I recommend the FC660C. It feels more solid to me (I am partial to the layout as well), and doesn't slide around on the desk near as much. The HHKB is the best there is if the layout is what you desire.
I tend to agree. The FC660C was my first Topre board, and I very much appreciated its solidity and typing sound and feel. However, I didn't like the stock keycaps on the first version and at the time it was difficult to find replacement keycaps. In addition, the layout was not quite what I wanted.
Then I got the HHKB Pro 2, and I instantly liked just about everything about it, especially the form factor and layout, but also the dye-sub PBT keycaps. However, I have never quite adjusted to the hollow "plasticky" sound. Recently, I got the Type-S, but it sounds and feels as if the sliders are wrapped in tissue paper.
Now the keyboard I use most often is a RF 87ub 55g. It sounds and feels solid, and provides excellent tactile feedback. It looks, sounds, and feels like I am getting my money's worth from this keyboard. However, I do prefer the form factor and layout of the HHKB Pro 2.
Given this experience, the hypothetical ideal keyboard for me would be the HHKB Pro 2, but with plate-mounted 55g Topre switches.
I'd agree with that. There was always something nagging at me when considering paying $350 for a plastic board like that. It definitely found its niche.
I am jealous! I have yet to try the 55g Topre, but I don't think I have ever heard anything bad about them. It's on my bucket list of sorts.
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I had to get rid of mine but part of me wishes that I didn't.
Do you use yours for gaming at-all or is yours a primary typing/work keyboard? I feel like I'd love to go ahead and buy another one, but knowing that I have had one before, I feel that it'll be a waste of money as I just can't use it over reds.
Thoughts?
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I had to get rid of mine but part of me wishes that I didn't.
Do you use yours for gaming at-all or is yours a primary typing/work keyboard? I feel like I'd love to go ahead and buy another one, but knowing that I have had one before, I feel that it'll be a waste of money as I just can't use it over reds.
Thoughts?
The HHKB for me is primarily a work keyboard for sure. Having said that, I have absolutely no issues gaming on the HHKB.
This is do to :
- 99% of the time; FPS gamer - nothing important is bound to F Keys
- I do not use the WASD cluster for gaming, so the layout does not affect me in that aspect
- I prefer a linear switch for gaming (MX Reds)
If the games you play don't rely on binds to the function keys and the layout does not interfere with your normal setup--there should be no issues on the gaming front :D
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very detailed! thanks and hoping i will get to try one in the future also.
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I'm so glad I saw this thread. I was in the process of purchasing a topre. Now I'm in a new dillema, buy a type S or save the money for parts to customize it! It's so hard!
I don't know if you are dead set on the HHKB, but I recommend the FC660C. It feels more solid to me (I am partial to the layout as well), and doesn't slide around on the desk near as much. The HHKB is the best there is if the layout is what you desire.
I solved the HHKB sliding around thing with these cabinet door bumpers:
http://www.amazon.com/Bumpers-Small-Diameter-Thick-Sheet/dp/B003F092P6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1421021210&sr=8-1&keywords=blum+cabinet+door+bumpers+small
Just use the small ones that are 1/16" thick on all four corners. Sits like it's glued to the desk.
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Nice review, I don't see the USB hub as a flaw, though. I use it to import pictures from my camera to my PC. :)
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Nice review, I don't see the USB hub as a flaw, though. I use it to import pictures from my camera to my PC. :)
The hub is good for plugging in a 23U as well.
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I plug my wired mouse (and when I use it, my graphics tablet) into the USB hub (my main computer at the moment is my 13inch rMBP (which only has 2 USB slots) so the fact that the HHKB has a USB hub built in is a godsend.
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I like the hub as well. You guys are going to laugh, but I have a 16' powered USB cable attached to my media PC in the living room running the TV. I take my HHKB from my office in there when it's TV time and keep a cheap trackball mouse on the coffee table that plugs into the HHKB. :thumb:
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Thanks for the review, I never though of the ergonomics of my hhkb, I'll try the cardboard
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One more thing about the Type-S that actually has me questioning whether I like it as well as my standard HHKB Pro 2 or my RF 87ub 55g: the sound and feel of the keys on the Type-S are as if the sliders were wrapped in tissue paper.
While I like the fact that the clack noise has been attenuated, I also prefer a more definitive and solid sound and feel such as I get from the RF 87ub 55g.
Some people report that they prefer the dental band mod over the Type-S. I will just have to try this for myself to know which version I prefer.
Hello, I am considering a second HHKB, but a Type-S. Are the key switches the same weight as the normal HHKB?
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One more thing about the Type-S that actually has me questioning whether I like it as well as my standard HHKB Pro 2 or my RF 87ub 55g: the sound and feel of the keys on the Type-S are as if the sliders were wrapped in tissue paper.
While I like the fact that the clack noise has been attenuated, I also prefer a more definitive and solid sound and feel such as I get from the RF 87ub 55g.
Some people report that they prefer the dental band mod over the Type-S. I will just have to try this for myself to know which version I prefer.
Hello, I am considering a second HHKB, but a Type-S. Are the key switches the same weight as the normal HHKB?
yeah, both are 45g
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Do 45-gram Topre switches on an HHKB feel firmer than the same switch on an 87U? I use a 55g 87UB because 45g Topre switches felt too light on a Realforce KB. I had read somewhere on GH that someone said 45g switches on an HHKB had an improved feel over the same switch on a Realforce.
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Do 45-gram Topre switches on an HHKB feel firmer than the same switch on an 87U? I use a 55g 87UB because 45g Topre switches felt too light on a Realforce KB. I had read somewhere on GH that someone said 45g switches on an HHKB had an improved feel over the same switch on a Realforce.
My Topre boards include the RF 87ub 55g, RF 87ub 45g, and HHKB Pro 2 (45g). The HHKB has a different sound and feel from the RF boards, but I wouldn't say that the HHKB feels firmer. The case-mounted switches in the HHKB tend to feel "springier" than the plate-mounted switches in the RFs, perhaps because the plastic case is more yielding than a metal plate. To me, typing on the HHKB is more fun than typing on the RFs. With the RFs, I get a feeling of solidity, like driving a luxury sedan, whereas the HHKB is like driving a two-seater sports car.
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Do 45-gram Topre switches on an HHKB feel firmer than the same switch on an 87U? I use a 55g 87UB because 45g Topre switches felt too light on a Realforce KB. I had read somewhere on GH that someone said 45g switches on an HHKB had an improved feel over the same switch on a Realforce.
improved is subjective, but it does have a different feel, not due to the switch or domes being different, but due to the switches being mounted to the plastic case, rather than a metal plate like on the RF boards. So that when you press on the switch there is a bit of give from the case.
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Hypersphere and slickmamba:
Thanks to both of you. Improved feel is difficult if not impossible to quantify; and it is subjective. Both responses tell me the feel is different from the 45g/87U KBs I've owned. If I can ask another question, do you find the feel of the switch on an HHKB has more tactile feedback than on a Realforce? Again, this may be difficult to quantify, but if you have feedback, I'd appreciate hearing what your assessments.
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Yes, it is difficult to quantify tactile feedback. To me, the "best" feedback is a combination of auditory and tactile sensations that occur as close as possible to each other and to the actuation of the switch. The keyboards that deliver this kind of feedback to my satisfaction include IBM Model F, HHKB Pro 2, RF 87ub 55g, and KBP V60 Matias Click keyboards.
If I try to isolate the tactile feedback on a given key by pressing it slowly, I would say that my RF 87ub 55g has a more definitive feeling of building up pressure until the rubber dome collapses than does the HHKB Pro 2 with its 45g domes. However, when typing at speed, perhaps because of the extra springiness afforded by the case-mounted switches in the HHKB Pro 2, it feels a bit more "alive" than my RF. At the same time, the switches in my HHKB Pro 2 feel noticeably lighter than those in my 55g RF. When I want a heavier, more solid feel, I use my 55g RF. When I want a lighter, livelier feel, I use the HHKB Pro 2.
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Yes, it is difficult to quantify tactile feedback. To me, the "best" feedback is a combination of auditory and tactile sensations that occur as close as possible to each other and to the actuation of the switch. The keyboards that deliver this kind of feedback to my satisfaction include IBM Model F, HHKB Pro 2, RF 87ub 55g, and KBP V60 Matias Click keyboards.
If I try to isolate the tactile feedback on a given key by pressing it slowly, I would say that my RF 87ub 55g has a more definitive feeling of building up pressure until the rubber dome collapses than does the HHKB Pro 2 with its 45g domes. However, when typing at speed, perhaps because of the extra springiness afforded by the case-mounted switches in the HHKB Pro 2, it feels a bit more "alive" than my RF. At the same time, the switches in my HHKB Pro 2 feel noticeably lighter than those in my 55g RF. When I want a heavier, more solid feel, I use my 55g RF. When I want a lighter, livelier feel, I use the HHKB Pro 2.
Your observations and testing are much like mine, I had to laugh. There are times one thinks "I must be the only one who does this". Also, your choice of keyboards are pretty much mine, except for the Matias, I've never tried one but have looked at them on-line. Like you, there are times I want a slightly lighter switch, and have been using an MX Red Corsair K65 (a bit too light for me), but I don't care for the proximity of the key-switches on Filco, CMQFR, and like-designed KBs.
Between Topre switches and RF's configuration, the keyboard suits me; but the lure of an HHKB with its unique feel might be a good alternative for those times I want a lighter switch. Oddly enough, RF's 45g KB never felt good to me; the switches felt a bit mushy, nowhere near as definitive as Topre's 55-gram switch.
Thanks for your observations, they resonated with me.