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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: intelli78 on Mon, 08 December 2014, 12:06:07
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People with variable weighted Realforces, what do you think of them? Are they better to type on than all-45g boards, or are they annoying? Is it too easy to actuate keys?
Also, is the key weighting graduated/"gradiented" like the EK chart shows: http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se07t0
Or is it like the Leopold chart shows here, a bunch of 45g and this weird distribution of 30g keys? http://leopold.co.kr/?doc=cart/item.php&it_id=1317180063
This looks really weird to me, can't say I understand it. Wouldn't you want to make the W column also 30g, or make the O column 45g, for symmetry? The EK chart makes more sense...
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People with variable weighted Realforces, what do you think of them? Are they better to type on than all-45g boards, or are they annoying? Is it too easy to actuate keys?
Also, is the key weighting graduated/"gradiented" like the EK chart shows: http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se07t0
Or is it like the Leopold chart shows here, a bunch of 45g and this weird distribution of 30g keys? http://leopold.co.kr/?doc=cart/item.php&it_id=1317180063
This looks really weird to me, can't say I understand it. Wouldn't you want to make the W column also 30g, or make the O column 45g, for symmetry? The EK chart makes more sense...
I have the Realforce variable, and I love it. I prefer to use my HHKB Pro 2 Type-S as my daily driver, but if I have a ton of typing to do, I pull out the 'ol Realforce variable.
Shown here:
(http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o580/eth0sz/GreensandPurples2.jpg) (http://s1148.photobucket.com/user/eth0sz/media/GreensandPurples2.jpg.html)
As for the weighting, in my heart I would like to say that it's like the EK chart, but in my head, I think it's actually like the Leopold chart you referenced. The 30g keys are extremely light, but not so light that you will accidentally push them. The 30g's are only for the pinky fingers, and they really do prevent fatigue from a lot of typing. And by a lot of typing, I would say 30 minutes and up of constant typing, and then you can really tell the difference. Your hands will thank you, if you do a lot of typing. The rest of the keyboard is 45g, as far as I can tell (except for the lone 55g ESC key, ofc). If I was a fat old man like the infamous r!pst3r, I would use his so-called keyboard "science" and stack a bunch of pennies on teh keys, but I'm not, so I won't.
The only real downside to the Realforce variable is gaming. If you like to use the WASD cluster for FPS gaming, it's kind of off-puting, tbh, because the W is 30g, and the ASD are 45g. This can be solved by remapping the keys, but taht sux.
Anyway, the RF variable is a great keyboard. It feels great, and the 30g's are in exactly the right places, regardless of symmetry. I would recommend the RF variable to you if you do a lot of typing, if you won't be playing a lot of FPS games with it, and so long as you aren't the type of person who prefers the feel of heavy switches. If you want heavy switches, with a pronounced tactile bump, then you will need the uniform 55g version. The RF variable is on the lighter side, but not too light. I really like it.
I hope this helps.
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I don't have the 45g 87U RF, but I do have the 55g and an HHKB Pro 2. My variable silent 87U is my favorite. In fact, I've purchased two of them. They are tactile and butter smooth, provided you're a light typist. To me, it doesn't feel variable. That's probably because the lighter keys are used by the weaker fingers.
While I enjoy the sound of non-silenced Topre switches, I really like the silenced keys. And the silenced version isn't much more expensive than the standard.
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lol am I the only one that dislike variable.
I got a RF 104U variable and I don't find the accidental press to be an issue. However the lighter domes just simply don't feel as nice, they're kind of mushy and not tactile at all.
So now you have a mix of tactile and linear switch with different weight it just feels inconsistent. It's like mixing mx green and mx red in the same keyboard.
As for typing, I find I still prefer 45g uniform better. It's more consistent and doesn't really make me fatigue on the weaker finger either. For gaming it's hands down uniform switch is better.
I personally have a RF 104U, Type Heaven, my g/f has a Leopold FC660C. Out of the 3 I'd recommend buying Leopold FC660C.
Though like people say it ultimately comes down to preference.
Hope this helps. :thumb:
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This is weight variance of my HHKB pro with Realforce 101 rubber, I used coin stack method to measure.
Seems like reasonable for othodox fingering. Leopold's diagram is weird.
I definitely prefer variable weighting, it is good for my pinkies.
Weights to register(actuate) 2012/03/23
HHKB pro(PD-KB300 2003-05) with variable weighted rubber sheet from Realforce 101(2007 maybe), silencing mod and lubricated by RO-59.
,-----------------------------------------------------------.
|43 |34 |40 |47 |45 |48 |50 |49 |48 |43 |35 |35 |36 |55 |55 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|47 |33 |41 |51 |49 |50 |49 |50 |51 |43 |36 |36 |37 |44 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|49 |34 |41 |50 |51 |52 |51 |51 |50 |44 |37 |37 |41 |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
|48 |35 |42 |50 |53 |52 |51 |51 |50 |45 |36 |45 |61 |
`-----------------------------------------------------------'
|54 |50 | 40 |50 |58 |
`-------------------------------------------'
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=27474.msg556319#msg556319
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For gaming, I keep on accidentally hitting a, so I stopped using it to play games, instead I use a cherry board. Also a lot of times I accidentally trigger the 1 button leaving a huge trail of 1111111 when I'm not careful. But apart from that, its pretty good, although I may get something uniform so my pinkies don't get too weak.
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Info from EK, so hasu is right...
The chart on our website is the most accurate. I believe the original specification was for distinct weightings, but we talked to Topre engineers and were told that the domes of the entire letter typing area were formed with one tool using a pressure gradient across the tool to control weightings; this greatly simplifies the manufacturing process. The result is gradually decreasing weightings as you move outwards from the center of the letter area.
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Yeap..that is how my variables are....
Pinky keys are 30g...and moving inwards they get slightly heavier..it isn't perfectly like that...but a good example is:
"A" is 30g
"S" takes slightly more pressure (it actually feels tactile unlike 30g to me)
"D" actually feels more like 45 but "E" is only slightly heavier than "S".
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Considering how much variation there can be on "uniform" Topre boards, that's not surprising.
How do you like your variable RF?
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I press 30g keys by mistake too often that it gets annoying for me.. but then I don't touch-type precisely according to method, and so variable weighting is kind of wasted on me anyway.
The hardest keys (50g+) are also too hard for me, and give me finger fatigue.
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I got my silent variable today (anniversary edition :))
My initial impression is that I kind of like the variable weighting. Will need to use it more, but it's not OCD-inducing like I thought it might be. The silent sliders are also really nice. Much smoother than those on the HHKB type-s.
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Info from EK, so hasu is right...
The chart on our website is the most accurate. I believe the original specification was for distinct weightings, but we talked to Topre engineers and were told that the domes of the entire letter typing area were formed with one tool using a pressure gradient across the tool to control weightings; this greatly simplifies the manufacturing process. The result is gradually decreasing weightings as you move outwards from the center of the letter area.
wow! I'm really surprised this is true, but it's awesome. Now that I know about the gradient in actuation force across the keys, I'm even more impressed by the Realforce Variable. My version also has silent switches, which are a tiny bit better than regular Topre's, and a tiny bit nicer than the HHKB silents, but that may be just because of the metal plate, which is what I think. So anyway, the Realforce variable is super great keyboard. However, I would have to say that the pinky finger keys are extremely light, and have virtually no tactile bump at all. So if that bugs you, then you won't like it, but that's okay, because there's a 45g or 55g Realforce out there for you!
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I have a 45g (EK edition) at home, and a variable weight at work. Overall it just feels like the variable weight Realforce is a tad lighter. As I am typing on it, I am never really aware of the variable weighting, which I think is a good thing.
Personally, I like the variable weight RF because:
-I like keyboards with light actuation
-I do not game on that keyboard
-I am a traditional touch typist, so the weighting works as intended.
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People with variable weighted Realforces, what do you think of them?.
I absolutely hate them. Way too light on average so it kills the Topre tactile feel.
(But I respect Grim Fandango's taste for ligher switch - You must like light actuation to appreciate the Topre variable)
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People with variable weighted Realforces, what do you think of them?.
I absolutely hate them. Way too light on average so it kills the Topre tactile feel.
(But I respect Grim Fandango's taste for ligher switch - You must like light actuation to appreciate the Topre variable)
The only keys that lose tactility are the 30g keys..which I also dislike because they will actuate even when I'm not pressing them..but during normal typing they aren't an issue.
The 2nd column in is not as tactile as the 45g keys so I can see why people might dislike them as well..but in the grand scheme of typing, you don't really notice it that much.
Now, if you type with 2-3 fingers per hand and they're flying all over the place, the variable makes absolutely no sense and I would hate it..
For relatively "proper" form they just seem to make sense...it was one of the few buys I was really skeptical about but using it made me a believer...
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^
completely concur with everything there
it's still silly that the mods are hit with pinkies but have heavy weighting.
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I don't have experience with all the Topre boards, but I do have the variable one. Typing experience is pretty satisfying, but not much better than my cherry boards. The PBT keycaps feel awesome though.
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A variable weighted keyboard would work great for me if I used a proper typing hand layout but due to my "gamer instincts" my left hand always goes to WASD as the home keys and hence causing my pinkie to receive much less use and so it is not that useful for me!
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A variable weighted keyboard would work great for me if I used a proper typing hand layout but due to my "gamer instincts" my left hand always goes to WASD as the home keys and hence causing my pinkie to receive much less use and so it is not that useful for me!
Yeap...Variable only makes sense if you're using proper form..If you're not I would imagine it would suck.
Overall it does feel lighter than all 45g..just in a general sense I thought it was lighter..almost annoyingly so...but it just starts to make sense....and when using it, it just feels right..
It is sort of like MX Browns..if you press it as an individual key it just seems very meh...but when using it it feels fine..variable is just like that. If you hen pick each key and test it out, it is annoying...the real key is typing with it...
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I really like the variable topre - only thing that killed it for me is I had a Silent board and some of the stabilized keys were awefully metallicy.
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People with variable weighted Realforces, what do you think of them? Are they better to type on than all-45g boards, or are they annoying? Is it too easy to actuate keys?
Also, is the key weighting graduated/"gradiented" like the EK chart shows: http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se07t0
Or is it like the Leopold chart shows here, a bunch of 45g and this weird distribution of 30g keys? http://leopold.co.kr/?doc=cart/item.php&it_id=1317180063
This looks really weird to me, can't say I understand it. Wouldn't you want to make the W column also 30g, or make the O column 45g, for symmetry? The EK chart makes more sense...
I thought that "Realforce" was a trademark or shorthand for their variable weighted technology, so a Realforce is always variable weighted, unless you specifically mention "uniform". Is this correct?
My impressions are that the variable weighted Realforce feels smoother than a uniform Topre like the Realforce 88UB (probably one of the closest model allowing a good comparison).
On the other hand, the uniform Topres that I have (88UB, FC660C, HHKB Type-S and Novatouch) feel "snappier". They have more tactile feedback, and I appreciate this quality more and more nowadays. That's why the Novatouch has replaced my beloved RF87U on my main computer. The better tactile feedback makes me want to type more.
I have the feeling that the 45g weighting is the right one for me, which has prevented me so far to purchase a 55g Topre or a keyboard with Cherry MX clear. I'm afraid more weight would be tiring. On the other hand, people who have tried 55g Topre are very vocal about it being better and more tactile, so I guess I'll have to try one.
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I have the feeling that the 45g weighting is the right one for me, which has prevented me so far to purchase a 55g Topre or a keyboard with Cherry MX clear. I'm afraid more weight would be tiring. On the other hand, people who have tried 55g Topre are very vocal about it being better and more tactile, so I guess I'll have to try one.
The 55g is definitely a different experience than 45g, and I doubt one can do extended typing on it without getting fatigued. It takes some time to used to the weighting, but afterwards 45g feels much less tactile in comparison, sort of like the difference between MX clear and brown.
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I have the feeling that the 45g weighting is the right one for me, which has prevented me so far to purchase a 55g Topre or a keyboard with Cherry MX clear. I'm afraid more weight would be tiring. On the other hand, people who have tried 55g Topre are very vocal about it being better and more tactile, so I guess I'll have to try one.
The 55g is definitely a different experience than 45g, and I doubt one can do extended typing on it without getting fatigued. It takes some time to used to the weighting, but afterwards 45g feels much less tactile in comparison, sort of like the difference between MX clear and brown.
I have already typed on rather heavy weighted rubber dome, and I clearly disliked it (I mean, more than light rubber domes).
I'm afraid my experience would be the same with heavier mechanical switches, and so far I have not been tempted to try.
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After all of 24 hours with a variable RF keyboard -- the only Topre board I’ve ever used -- I’m liking it. If I individually test the keys, it’s easy to feel the difference between the pinky keys and those with higher weight, and the pinky keys do feel a little mushier. There’s a bump near the top of the stroke on all the keys, but the bump is really subtle on the 30g keys. When I’m touch-typing, though, I don’t notice the difference – the typing experience feels smooth and precise, and I've had no trouble with accidental key presses. I’m not yet sure how I rate the RF against the Alps boards that I’ve used for years (Omnikeys and a Mattias), but so far I’d rate both Topre and Alps above the Cherry MX boards that I’ve tried (Reds and Blues in my case). Fwiw, I'm a reasonably fast touch typist, but not a gamer, and I'm happy with a reasonably light touch (I prefer Reds to Blues).
As some others have said, the RF keys are pretty quiet, so I don't see any need for a key-silencing project.