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geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: drewba on Tue, 16 December 2014, 21:04:28

Title: First Keycap Purchase - Noob Guidance!
Post by: drewba on Tue, 16 December 2014, 21:04:28: EDIT: It seems I made a fundamental mistake in thinking PBT> ABS keycaps. I'm starting over and looking for a blank set of ABS keycaps. Feng's site is down for a couple weeks too :(

Hi friends,
I'm working on my first mechanical board and was hoping I could get another set of eyes to make sure I'm making a decent decision.

First off, I'll be picking up the WASD V2 104 key barebones w/MX Clears (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/mechanical-keyboard/wasd-v2-104-key-barebones-mechanical-keyboard.html). A friend suggested pimpmykeyboard and I was able to find these blank DSA PBT Keycaps (http://keyshop.pimpmykeyboard.com/products/full-keysets/dsa-blank-sets-1). So, I'll need the base set + modifier set+ numpad set ($55.00 total). I found a thread that mentioned these will fit perfectly on any cherry MX switch keyboard with maybe the exception of the spacebar (a few mentioned having to file the spacebar down a bit).

1) Apart from the spacebar, am I going to run in to any challenges with these keycaps?
2) Is there a better resource to purchase similar keycaps at a lower price?
3) I know that PBT is the material, but can someone explain what DSA stands for?

Slightly more detailed question regarding blank keys: I won't have an issue typing on blank keys with the exception of symbols & numbers. I do still have to look at the keyboard when typing slashes, or an ampersand for instance. Let's say I want all blank keys except for numbers & symbols, where would you suggest I look? This isn't a dealbreaker but figured if I could make it work at a reasonable price (and match keycaps) I would. Thanks!
Title: Re: First Keycap Purchase - Noob Guidance!
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 16 December 2014, 21:18:04: 1) If you get clears you might have tightness issues

2) You can get tai hao keycaps for cheaper, but they're ABS

3) It's the "profile" of the keys. Doesn't stand for anything.
Title: Re: First Keycap Purchase - Noob Guidance!
Post by: FrostyToast on Tue, 16 December 2014, 21:21:37: DSA is a flat, non-sculpted, spherical profile.
I don't think I would suggest them for a first purchase since they are hated by many people.
Like tact said, Tai Hao is fine for a first purchase and the ABS construction really isn't too much of an issue.
Title: Re: First Keycap Purchase - Noob Guidance!
Post by: hwood34 on Tue, 16 December 2014, 21:22:38: 1) yep, only possible problems if you get clears
2) you can also get sets from feng on ebay
3) it's a low profile profile of caps like this:
(http://static.squarespace.com/static/531cec14e4b0a09d9584a407/t/537bd697e4b01fb1cd5ea7b6/1400624799145/P5200035.JPG)
Title: Re: First Keycap Purchase - Noob Guidance!
Post by: drewba on Tue, 16 December 2014, 21:42:26: Quote from: TacticalStache on Tue, 16 December 2014, 21:18:04
1) If you get clears you might have tightness issues

2) You can get tai hao keycaps for cheaper, but they're ABS

I am looking at getting clear switches...how bad would it be? Do MX clears have tightness issues with ABS & PBT?

I sort of assumed PBT was the superior material, sounds like that isn't the case. Seems people strongly dislike the WASD ABS keycaps, but is it safe to assume tai hao are higher quality even though they are ABS?

Quote from: hwood34 on Tue, 16 December 2014, 21:22:38
1) yep, only possible problems if you get clears
2) you can also get sets from feng on ebay
3) it's a low profile profile of caps like this:
Show Image
(http://static.squarespace.com/static/531cec14e4b0a09d9584a407/t/537bd697e4b01fb1cd5ea7b6/1400624799145/P5200035.JPG)

I had planned on getting clears, how bad is it? Can you be more specific about "feng on ebay"? A few searches yielded nothing. Thanks for the picture!
EDIT - figured out Feng was a user on GH :)

Quote from: FrostyToast on Tue, 16 December 2014, 21:21:37
DSA is a flat, non-sculpted, spherical profile.
I don't think I would suggest them for a first purchase since they are hated by many people.
Like tact said, Tai Hao is fine for a first purchase and the ABS construction really isn't too much of an issue.

Thanks, I'll look in to Tai Hao
Title: Re: First Keycap Purchase - Noob Guidance!
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 17 December 2014, 03:25:00: Clears have little ridges on the stems which can hold certain keycap types very tightly. DSA profile was originally designed for "industrial" use, so they're designed to fit tightly on the stems. When used in combination you can end up with keycaps that are very tight on the stems. It's not an issue if you have a loose MX Clear switch and use it to loosen up the caps a little before installing them by cycling them on and off the switch a few times each.

There are a whole lot of keycap options out there. I recommend you wait for your board to arrive and take your time browsing this subforum, the Group Buys subforum and elsewhere before you commit to buying a set of caps.

Some basics:

There are three main properties of keycaps that are important: Profile, material and print type.

Profile:
OEM: Most board come stock with OEM profile keycaps. OEM is not standardised, but most of them are very similar to each other. They are tallish and mildly "contoured" (each row has a different height and keytop angle) with "cylindrical" dents on the top of the caps.
Cherry: Originally made only by Cherry Corp, but now also made by BSP and GMK. Leopold's new PBT caps are also almost identical to Cherry profile. It's a lower profile than OEM, but also contoured and with cylindrical dents.
DCS: Made by Signature Plastics and often used for Group Buy sets. Very similar to Cherry profile, but with a steeper angle on the bottom two rows.
DSA: Made by Signature Plastics. Uncontoured (all rows have the same angle and height), low keycaps with spherical dents in the keytops. There are some other manufacturers with very similar profile caps (Cherry Corp made a similar one for their M8 switches, for instance)
SA: Made by Signature Plastics. Tall, contoured profile with spherical keytop dents. It is often used as an uncontoured profile, though, like DSA by using all row 3 profile. The contouring differs from DCS, Cherry and OEM in that the base angle is "flat" instead of angled away from the user, so the keycap tops make a smooth curve instead of being "stepped". Many old terminal boards used a similar profile and you'll find it on some old typewriters, too. It seems to have been designed for use with stepped boards or boards with angled keycap mounts which explains the "flat" base angle, but it actually turns out to feel really nice to type on despite the difference in angle with modern boards due to them being laid flatter than the old terminals and typewriters.

Material:
ABS: Stock material used for all profiles of keycaps. It is relatively fast-wearing and the least dense of all keycap materials. Floats in water. It's more malleable than PBT, but less than POM.
PBT: Denser, more hard-wearing material than ABS with different surface "feeling", tends to feel more "dry" and less "greasy" than ABS.
POM: Densest of the 3, quite hard-wearing and durable. Feels more "smooth" and teflon-like than the others, without "gripping" like smooth ABS can.

Printing:
Pad printed: Most standard rubber dome keyboards and laptops have pad printed keycaps. The legends are printed on the top with some form of ink or paint and then covered with a protective coat. The legends are therefore raised above the keycap surface and they can wear away fairly quickly.
Dye-sublimated (dyesubbed): Often used on PBT keycaps. An ink which is darker than the keycap material is heated and applied to the surface of the keycaps to allow the keycap material to absorb the dye. This results in a long-lasting legend which penetrates the actual material of the keycap and thus is not raised and is very long-lasting.
Lasered: There are three main types of lasered legends. The first uses a laser to etch the surface of the cap which is then infilled with ink / paint. This provides an almost-flush surface and is harder wearing than pad printing, but not as good as dyesub and the legends can usually be felt. The second "foams" or "burns" the keycap material, producing a darker colour. These can be slightly raised and penetrate a little into the surface. The third is when the keycaps are first coated in a layer of paint / dye that is UV cured and then a laser is used to "ablate" the legends into the surface by burning away the unwanted part. Backlit ABS keycaps are often made this way. This results in an inset legend that wears away relatively quickly (depending on the toughness of the paint used).
Double shot: The king of legends. Double shot keycaps are made in a two stage process where the legend and some support material are molded from one colour of plastic and then the main part of the keycap is molded around them in a different colour of plastic. ABS is the most tolerant of this process and is thus the most widely used for making doubleshots. The legends are flush with the surface and last until the keycap is worn down to almost unusable levels. The most durable of all types of "printing".

For the most part, keycap profile, material and legend type are a personal preference. Many people try a whole lot of them before settling on just a few as their favourites. That said, the most important factors when choosing keycaps, IMHO, are the quality of manufacture and thickness of material. The thicker the better. In this regard, GMK doubleshots and SA profile doubleshots are the best ABS keycaps available. In PBT, thick, Cherry profile dyesubs are what to look for. Those Leopold caps are very good, too. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of POM sets around (my favourite material) and those that are, are usually laser-infilled.

My personal favourite is contoured SA profile ABS doubleshots. I just wish they made them with POM.
Title: Re: First Keycap Purchase - Noob Guidance!
Post by: drewba on Wed, 17 December 2014, 08:49:17: Quote from: Oobly on Wed, 17 December 2014, 03:25:00
Clears have little ridges on the stems which can hold certain keycap types very tightly. DSA profile was originally designed for "industrial" use, so they're designed to fit tightly on the stems. When used in combination you can end up with keycaps that are very tight on the stems. It's not an issue if you have a loose MX Clear switch and use it to loosen up the caps a little before installing them by cycling them on and off the switch a few times each.

Thanks for all that detail Oobly! I'm going to have to read this a few times...
Title: Re: First Keycap Purchase - Noob Guidance!
Post by: Hypersphere on Wed, 17 December 2014, 09:21:39: Regarding profiles, I tend to prefer a high and stepped profile such as OEM, which is often used as the stock keycaps on new Cherry mx keyboards. Most of the keycap sets I have purchased are Cherry profile, which is somewhat lower than OEM and it is stepped. Recently, I bought the Granite PBT set, which is DSA profile -- medium height but flat, not stepped. Although the Granite set looks great and it has the dry and somewhat textured surface of PBT, I have difficulty typing on it because I am not accustomed to the flat profile or the spherical tops of the keycaps.

I much prefer the feel of PBT keycaps over ABS. To me, PBT feels dry and slightly textured, whereas ABS feels clammy and smooth. However, the texture of PBT varies. For example, the PBT keycaps on Realforce RF 87u, HHKB Pro 2, or vintage IBM keyboards feels very smooth to me, but it still feels dry.

However, I have some double-shot ABS sets that I like, mainly for their appearance.

I have some thick dye-sub PBT sets from Ducky, geek_feng, Imsto, and Originative. They usually work well, but sometimes they can be a bit loose fitting on the key stems. In addition, on keyboards with Costar-type stabilizers (such as the WASD boards), the stabilizer wires can rub the inside front edge on the stabilized keys. If this happens, you need to shave and/or sand the inner edge of the keycap until it clears the wire. I had this problem with the Leopold PBT set from eBay and my WASD keyboard. The Leopold caps are very high quality; they just have this problem on keyboards with Costar-type stabilizers.

Regarding geng_feng, he has an excellent reputation. I have bought several things from him.
Title: Re: First Keycap Purchase - Noob Guidance!
Post by: drewba on Wed, 17 December 2014, 09:35:28: Quote from: Hypersphere on Wed, 17 December 2014, 09:21:39
In addition, on keyboards with Costar-type stabilizers (such as the WASD boards), the stabilizer wires can rub the inside front edge on the stabilized keys. If this happens, you need to shave and/or sand the inner edge of the keycap until it clears the wire. I had this problem with the Leopold PBT set from eBay and my WASD keyboard. The Leopold caps are very high quality; they just have this problem on keyboards with Costar-type stabilizers.

Good to know! I was actually looking at the Leopold PBT sets last night. They look great.

Since others have mentioned it, I'm a little paranoid about getting PBT with MX clears due to tightness issues. Perhaps I'll cross that bridge when I'm not such a novice.
Title: Re: First Keycap Purchase - Noob Guidance!
Post by: Knxwledge on Tue, 23 December 2014, 14:42:43: Where can I purchase Tai Hao keycaps?
Title: Re: First Keycap Purchase - Noob Guidance!
Post by: drewba on Tue, 23 December 2014, 15:09:41: Quote from: Knxwledge on Tue, 23 December 2014, 14:42:43
Where can I purchase Tai Hao keycaps?

I was able to find Tai Hao on ebay and http://www.aliexpress.com
Title: Re: First Keycap Purchase - Noob Guidance!
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 23 December 2014, 22:53:50: Just go for those nice Leopold PBT. You really can't go wrong with them and they are a good price. I put them on a clears keyboard and didn't have any issues pulling them back off when I had to reseat some craptastic costar stabs that were on that board.