geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: sixty on Sun, 02 August 2009, 21:18:22
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This one totally got my attention when another geekhacker found that $500 keyboard from Korea on eBay (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6645).
I did a bit of research after that (since I was sure I had seen the case design before on kbdmania and OTD) and finally found out that it is the result of a DIY kit.
It seems that those have been circling the Korean keyboard community for quite some time, since the latest revision just finished shipping now.
Below is information about the 356CL keyboard kit.
The pictures are taken from Miinan on OTD (http://www.otd.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=album&wr_id=8410&page=4), the questions have kindly been answered by ohdh2003 on KBDMania, when my Korean has been too weak. Thanks again!
Pictures
Set content:
(http://sadpanda.us/images/38075-8GHNB0F.jpg)
Metal plate and PCB:
(http://sadpanda.us/images/38076-BTIS2HB.jpg)
Frame (Gunmetal):
(http://sadpanda.us/images/38077-PHVPRT3.jpg)
Information
Q1. Today I found a picture on OTD indicating that this keyboard is some kind of devkit or DIY (Do it yourself) kit for a keyboard?
A1. Yes, it is a DIY product. (One who want to make a keyboard have to prepare cherry switches, keycaps, stabilizers, and a PS/2 cables. He or she can make using soldering tools and hexagonal lench(right spell?).)
Q2. Could anyone please enlighten me with some more information on the 356CL
A2. 365cl is similar to previous editions:
* is the last edition of 356 series. (`cl' means classical, since it doesn't have windows keys)
* It is limited as the same as previous edition.
* It is tenkeyless.
Different things from previous editions:
* It has no windows key.
* It has a bronze chunk to increase weight.
* It is inclined.
Q3. What does the set include?
A3. It contains:
1. (anodized) aluminum housing (two kinds of color exist, black and gun-metal.),
2. a bronze chunk to increase weight,
3. a pcb board,
4. a mouting plate (anodized aluminum),
5. chips for the controller,
6. a rubber band to reduce noise due to vibration of metal plate, and
7. a lot of bolts.
(Am I missed something?)
Q4. Is this still available?
A4. Delivery was just finished. (In some sense, it isn't available.)
Q5. How much does it cost?
A5. It priced around four hundred thousand won (approx. 310 USD).
I guess this explains why the eBay one is already so expensive. At a base price of over 300 dollars its not surprising. But damn, how cool is this? You can basically almost come up with your dream board (assuming you like the layout and can solder). I totally want one.
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That's really expensive for how labor-intesive that is...I'd love a metal case custom keyboard, but that's really pricey, especially when the switches are another $75-100.
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Any idea how do you specify key locations? By programming the controller chip? I would have guessed jumper wires but it looks like all the foil runs are already in place.
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The one on ebay used pink Alps switches, though, not Cherry.
Perhaps a different version of the kit?
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The one on ebay used pink Alps switches, though, not Cherry.
Perhaps a different version of the kit?
Yes, there have been a few different versions already. I assume there have been PCBs for ALPS switches before.
Any idea how do you specify key locations? By programming the controller chip? I would have guessed jumper wires but it looks like all the foil runs are already in place.
I believe it uses the LIMKB controller, which is also available separately. If that is the case then it should be freely programmable with software.
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I really like the red PCB. I'd put that in an acrylic case to show it off. But... for $300 it better come with a Red Esc key too.
It's pretty all right.
Given the above pictures and description, it doesn't look like it comes with any keycaps.
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I've got to wonder if the price is competitive with some sort of "one-off prototype building service" at 400,000KRW + the cost of keycaps and switches and apparently the cable.
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if you guys stay on this track, i smell an open-source keyboard brewing...
an open pcb design, firmware, parts supplier lists, etc :)
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What's the minimum order size for switches from Cherry?
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What's the minimum order size for switches from Cherry?
According to Digikey, it's a batch of 250 for blues.
Source:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=CH197-ND
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the matrix design looks pretty clean. also aluminum chassis looks really good.
but it's just too expensive considering extra the cherry switch / keycap prices.
ps: anyone knows what MCU is used in the controller?
ps2: I was thinking about a collaborative custom geekhack project kit but after seeing those switch prices I realised it doesn't make sense.
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According to Digikey, it's a batch of 250 for blues.
Source:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=CH197-ND
Digikey sells singles of them, there's just price breaks at various quantities. The 250 "standard package" is just how many cherry boxes up in a single unit, digikey will break those packages and sell you however many you want.
I've got to wonder if the price is competitive with some sort of "one-off prototype building service" at 400,000KRW + the cost of keycaps and switches and apparently the cable.
A PCB that size from a no tooling PCB house would probably run close to $150-200US by itself, not to mention the case.
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superb builds. although I don't like the transparent keycap thing.
what do you think, would be the minimum order for cherry corp to produce us a custom keyboard? considering we have a ready to manufacture design from mechanics to electronics.
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The whole thing looks Costar-ish. I wonder if they just purchase separate parts from Costar (the PCB and case) and just let the user do the rest.
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The aluminum case and pcb look really, really good.
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Hypothetically, couldn't you design your own keyboard PCB, controller, case, etc, and then buy the switches, all for cheaper than this? Or am I just crazy?
That would be pretty neat, actually. A breadboard keyboard.
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I bet whatever keyboard manufacturer is laughing at all this right now. "Hey, some keyboard nuts are willing to pay more for a disassembled keyboard!"
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Hypothetically, couldn't you design your own keyboard PCB, controller, case, etc, and then buy the switches, all for cheaper than this? Or am I just crazy?
That would be pretty neat, actually. A breadboard keyboard.
The case would be the deal breaker, the rest would probably be cheaper. Custom machined parts are outrageously expensive.
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you guys know what?
Even with that price, builders were suffered with lots of deficits. (maybe more than 5,000 USD, I guess)
All aluminum cases are CNC-manufactured, polished, anodized, less than 1/100 tolerance, and many prototype trials..
It worth enough. (Anyway it's different problem that you may want to buy that product)
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Hypothetically, couldn't you design your own keyboard PCB, controller, case, etc, and then buy the switches, all for cheaper than this?
No. The price is actually pretty good considering the small number that is produced. A single item like you suggest will be much more expensive.
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No. The price is actually pretty good considering the small number that is produced. A single item like you suggest will be much more expensive.
Even assembled on a breadboard with your own controller?
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That won't fit into the case, I guess. Anyway, it's the case, the switch pcb and the plate.
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Inornate, Welcome to Geekhack!
Are you a member at OTD? We do find it very impressive!
Yes I am. I've been watching geekhack for a several month, and It's also very impressive that 356CL is issued in geekhack community. :D
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First off ...yes its very impressive. The colour of the keys reminds me of the terminals I used to see at my dads work as a kid.
The PCB and the controller are the hard areas to cover/make ...true ?
Yes, a nice smart looking case would make it perfect, but not the deal breaker IMO.
Seeing how much the switches drop in price (via Digikey 1000 off, being almost half the single unit price). I wonder how hard it would be to get a GeekHack Kit together ...but, what if you were to re-use a case, possibly even the plate and work from there ?
That could drop the price some what.
But thinking about it, the limited edition cherry blue (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?pid=fkbn87mceb) Majestouch Tenkeyless (that I missed out on) from EKbrds is very close to what I 'think' my perfect board would be.
That said, I do like my Panasonic which is very much like the IBM Model F.
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It seems that most Koreans just used donor boards to get the switches.
That probably would be the best thing to do. At least here in Germany where Cherry has decent distribution it would be much easier to get your hands on a donor board than on the switches directly.
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sixty/ exactly. It's almost impossible that get a new switches from the distributor. So we just hack the manufactured keyboards ( vintage cherries, majestouches, apples, ...etc... )
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有的宗国宁伐？
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I'm sorry Cosmos, but this is generally an English-language board. While there are members on here who speak (I'm guessing here) Chinese, I'm pretty sure they're the only two.
Plus, this is an old-ass thread.
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Google Translate:
有的宗国宁伐
=
Some of these countries attacked Ning
Spam?
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Wow has anybody seen the transparent cases?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]28905[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]28906[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]28907[/ATTACH]
I guess that I need to learn Korean because I need this kit.
Reminds me of this
[ATTACH=CONFIG]28908[/ATTACH]
or this haha ( corny!!! )
[ATTACH=CONFIG]28909[/ATTACH]
Anyways if anybody knows someone who can help me get one of these kits I would be greatful
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How many people actually bought one of these kits?
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I like all kinds of fermented foods
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I like all kinds of fermented foods
Gotta be careful with the kimchee at the keyboard. A couple of times I splattered kimchee solution (aka "juice", aka Heavenly Kimchee Brine) on my keyboard from 3 feet away due to its spicy garlic fermented superpowers. Fortunately, just the top of my old keyboard.
My wife thinks it looks like pickled pigs feet, and won't try it.
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有的宗国宁伐？
I read Chinese, and the above makes no sense what so ever.
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So is the "vintage" look really that popular? why not get a vintage keyboard? Is there a big difference in build quality other than age than the Alps/other vint switches and new cherry switches other than wear and tear on used switches?
Personally if i sprung 500ish bucks on a custom keyboard, I wouldn't make it look like it was 25 years old, but that's just me.
EDIT: Re-reading the recent posts made me realize how off-topic this is, but if you look at the pictures on the 1st page it makes a lot more sense.
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So is the "vintage" look really that popular? why not get a vintage keyboard? Is there a big difference in build quality other than age than the Alps/other vint switches and new cherry switches other than wear and tear on used switches?
Personally if i sprung 500ish bucks on a custom keyboard, I wouldn't make it look like it was 25 years old, but that's just me.
EDIT: Re-reading the recent posts made me realize how off-topic this is, but if you look at the pictures on the 1st page it makes a lot more sense.
A huge portion of those prices are the alloy cases.
That and where else can you get a tenkeyless board without windows keys? Those are the 2 primary reasons id say...as well as customization when putting them together.
Sent from my EVO
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if this is still selling anywhere... im buying..
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Do we have any members here that are on otd that can set up purchases of these kits for the next buy?
I would really be interested in getting something like this (http://blog.naver.com/PostList.nhn?blogId=icecaky&categoryNo=11&parentCategoryNo=11¤tPage=14).
I just cant get this acrylic board out of my head
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This would be cool if it wasn't such a rip off price. A couple pieces of alluminum dont cost hundreds of dollars. You could just customize your own keyboard for way less than this.
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This would be cool if it wasn't such a rip off price. A couple pieces of alluminum dont cost hundreds of dollars. You could just customize your own keyboard for way less than this.
You sir are very wrong. The custom made cases are very expensive.
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This would be cool if it wasn't such a rip off price. A couple pieces of alluminum dont cost hundreds of dollars. You could just customize your own keyboard for way less than this.
yeah cause aluminum comes straight from the factory anodized and in the exact shape of a keyboard.:rolleyes:
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This would be cool if it wasn't such a rip off price. A couple pieces of alluminum dont cost hundreds of dollars. You could just customize your own keyboard for way less than this.
you my friend need to do alot more research before you say something like this
i will buy that at that price had i got the chance
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It would be cool if we could come up with a geek hack board, home brew style. make our own tenkeyless board. it would be alot of work though.
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Do we have any members here that are on otd that can set up purchases of these kits for the next buy?
I would really be interested in getting something like this (http://blog.naver.com/PostList.nhn?blogId=icecaky&categoryNo=11&parentCategoryNo=11ĪtPage=14).
I just cant get this acrylic board out of my head
That is pretty cool , but I don't know.... Something about it just screams 1980's. I can't figure out what product I used to have as a kid that was clear but something triggered that emotion. I'm pretty sure it wasn't my daughters old N64 controller.
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yeah cause aluminum comes straight from the factory anodized and in the exact shape of a keyboard.:rolleyes:
Actually anodizing aluminum is very simple and not expensive. You can buy anodized aluminum sheets for a few dollars. And yeah it takes a keyboard mold to make? But so what... they are charging $300 a piece because they had to make a mold? Come on!:croc:
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They are expensive but no one else is doing it. I think that it also includes the pcb in the price too
I wonder how much those acrylic cases are? I would have to imagine that they would be cheaper
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Mold? These things are machined to shape. The ridiculous quantity required before casting aluminum makes sense financially is just not seen in keyboards. Even the Corsair aluminum K60 and K90 are either extruded or possibly form bent.
These custom aluminum KBs are machined from solid blocks. Machine time costs money.