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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: obra on Wed, 24 December 2014, 08:53:57

Title: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: obra on Wed, 24 December 2014, 08:53:57: While I wait for the Model 01 boards to come back from Shenzhen, I've been messing around with a symmetric stagger 60% layout. Before I go and get 5 PCBs made, I'd love layout feedback from folks.

[attachimg=1]

Keyboard Layout Editor/url] (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@=esc&=%60&=1&=2&=3&=4&=5&=6&=7&=8&=9&=0&=-&=/=&=del;&@_w:1.75;&=tab&=q&=w&=e&=r&_w:1.25;&=t&_w:1.25;&=y&=u&=i&=o&=p&=%5B&_w:1.75;&=%5D;&@_w:1.5;&=ctrl&=a&=s&=d&=f&=g&=macro&=h&=,j&=k&=l&=/;&='&_w:1.5;&=ret;&@_w:1.25;&=shift&=z&=x&=c&=v&_w:1.25;&=b&=up&_w:1.25;&=n&=m&=,&=.&=//&_w:1.25;&=shift&=%5C;&@_w:1.25;&=fn&_w:1.25;&=alt&_w:1.25;&=cmd&_w:1.75;&=space&=left&=down&=right&_w:1.75;&=space&_w:1.25;&=cmd&_w:1.25;&=alt&_w:1.25;&=ctrl&=fn)
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: plainbriny on Wed, 24 December 2014, 17:31:58: While symmetry is a good thing, and this layout is nice, I don't think the navigation keys in the middle will work well.

Most people access the navigation keys (arrows) with one hand. Of course this may just a habit come from old boards putting these keys in the right hand side. However, this middle navigation keys will lead to two possibilities:
1) one has to move one hand to access theses keys
2) one learn to access these keys using two hands

The first will affect the typing since the hand will move between the home row and these navigation keys constantly. I am not sure about the second, but I imagine some editing works will become much more complicated.

Perhaps these keys can be assigned to other functions, and accessing the arrow keys with some function keys. For example, I have assigned my 'f' key to a layer switch, while I press this key, 'jkl;' in the other hand become the navigation keys. This way, my hand do not need to move all the times.

Also, the positions of the space keys will cause the thumbs to move inward, which might cause some strain. Perhaps you can merge the 'left' and 'right' keys with either space key. This will lead to more natural typing.
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: yasuo on Wed, 24 December 2014, 22:06:49: i like findecanor design more like utron
(http://i.imgur.com/ob2OXBb.png)
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 25 December 2014, 00:38:44: I’ve always thought a pure symmetric row stagger started breaking down at the pinkies. What about something like this?
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/7f3dd224e425a1d0d6289533b1cead06
(http://i.imgur.com/8vLFT1E.png)
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 25 December 2014, 06:37:24: If you are going to make it compatible with a Poker case then you need to design the layout so that there is no switch directly over a standoff/bolt hole.
Some cases have a standoff between the QWERTY layout's G and H keys, while some don't. I see that the Macro key would interfere with that one. I think the others are clear but you'd better check yourself.

I would add a few options so that more people would buy it. For instance allow a few 1u keys on the bottom row on both sides for those who are used to having arrow keys there from having used Kinesis/Maltron/ErgoDox or an old Mac keyboard.
Personally I prefer the Space bar closer to the middle (I use the right one) and the right Alt key right below the . key.
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: obra on Thu, 25 December 2014, 10:50:53: Quote from: Findecanor on Thu, 25 December 2014, 06:37:24
Some cases have a standoff between the QWERTY layout's G and H keys, while some don't. I see that the Macro key would interfere with that one. I think the others are clear but you'd better check yourself.

Indeed. That was a change I made late at night once I was playing with the layout editor. The actual board design had G and H as 1.5x keys.

Quote from: Findecanor on Thu, 25 December 2014, 06:37:24

I would add a few options so that more people would buy it. For instance allow a few 1u keys on the bottom row on both sides for those who are used to having arrow keys there from having used Kinesis/Maltron/ErgoDox or an old Mac keyboard.
Personally I prefer the Space bar closer to the middle (I use the right one) and the right Alt key right below the . key.

*nod* Of course it's fully programmable and the key positions I specced were just so folks could get a sense of how it might be laid out.
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: obra on Thu, 25 December 2014, 10:53:20: Quote from: jacobolus on Thu, 25 December 2014, 00:38:44
I�ve always thought a pure symmetric row stagger started breaking down at the pinkies. What about something like this?
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/7f3dd224e425a1d0d6289533b1cead06
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/8vLFT1E.png)

A design constraint I'd set myself is that I didn't want to require the use of stabilizers, which kind of nukes the gigantic space and backspace keys.

I'm curious about your double-height tab and return keys. They don't seem like they're actually easier to hit than single-height keys given the position.

The Q and P keys seem slightly oddly placed for reachability. What's the reasoning there?
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: obra on Thu, 25 December 2014, 10:57:05: Quote from: yasuo on Wed, 24 December 2014, 22:06:49
i like findecanor design more like utron
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/ob2OXBb.png)

Mm. I actually quite like this. Really, quite a lot. Nice work @Findecanor. Is this a board that's been made before or just a thought experiment to date?
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 25 December 2014, 11:06:33: Quote from: obra on Thu, 25 December 2014, 10:53:20
I'm curious about your double-height tab and return keys. They don't seem like they're actually easier to hit than single-height keys given the position.
Quite possible. :-)

Quote
The Q and P keys seem slightly oddly placed for reachability. What's the reasoning there?
I find that they’re easier to reach that way, given the way a pinky finger moves. In a standard QWERTY keyboard, I find Q easier to reach than P with a pinky. (I typically use my ring finger for P.)
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: obra on Thu, 25 December 2014, 11:52:50: Playing with a findecanor style layout that might be more accessible to folks who aren't quite converts to the µTron style:

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/6t8sexh9082q796/Screenshot%202014-12-25%2012.36.47.png?dl=1)

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/qf4jf8t6v60rk8h/Screenshot%202014-12-25%2012.41.54.png?dl=1)

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ixhkkvbt6umjhdd/Screenshot%202014-12-25%2012.43.23.png?dl=1)

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/6g4mbvv5so2mb0t/Screenshot%202014-12-25%2012.50.41.png?dl=1)

All of them _should_ take into account the screwdown points for a poker-style 60% case.

I'll have 1 or two free boards for folks who give good commentary and are interested in the final layout ;)
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: obra on Thu, 25 December 2014, 11:53:59: Quote from: jacobolus on Thu, 25 December 2014, 11:06:33
Quote
The Q and P keys seem slightly oddly placed for reachability. What's the reasoning there?
I find that they�re easier to reach that way, given the way a pinky finger moves. In a standard QWERTY keyboard, I find Q easier to reach than P with a pinky. (I typically use my ring finger for P.)

*nod* Man I wish our fingers worked like keyboards expected them to ;)
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 25 December 2014, 16:40:39: Quote from: obra on Thu, 25 December 2014, 10:57:05
Nice work @Findecanor. Is this a board that's been made before or just a thought experiment to date?
Not my design. I'd guess that yasuo was inspired by the µTron through some thought experiment that I had posted.
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: obra on Thu, 25 December 2014, 20:30:57: Quote from: Findecanor on Thu, 25 December 2014, 16:40:39
Quote from: obra on Thu, 25 December 2014, 10:57:05
Nice work @Findecanor. Is this a board that's been made before or just a thought experiment to date?
Not my design. I'd guess that yasuo was inspired by the �Tron through some thought experiment that I had posted.

*nod*
Sadly, that exact layout won't work in a poker-style enclosure. One mounting hole is blocked
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: obra on Fri, 26 December 2014, 13:26:09: Playing around with something that will fit in a poker enclosure and doesn't require stabilizers gets me to this:

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/j7ty71ae7mom2f9/Screenshot%202014-12-26%2011.23.29.png?dl=1)

Obviously the mapping will want some love. But I think it _might_ address some of the issues folks here have flagged

Layout Editor (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##=%5B%5B%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22esc%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%221%22,%222%22,%223%22,%224%22,%225%22,%22-%22,%22/=%22,%226%22,%227%22,%228%22,%229%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%220%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22%22%5D,%0A%5B%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22~%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22q%22,%22w%22,%22e%22,%22r%22,%7Bw/:1%7D,%22t%22,%22%5B%22,%22%5D%22,%7Bw/:1%7D,%22y%22,%22u%22,%22i%22,%22o%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22p%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22%5C%5C%22%5D,%0A%5B%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22ctrl%22,%22a%22,%22s%22,%22d%22,%22f%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22g%22,%7Bw/:2%7D,%22Ret%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22h%22,%22,j%22,%22k%22,%22l%22,%22/;%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22'%22%5D,%0A%5B%7Bw/:1%7D,%22shift%22,%22z%22,%22x%22,%22c%22,%22v%22,%22b%22,%7Bw/:1.5%7D,%22tab%22,%7Bw/:1.5%7D,%22%22,%22n%22,%22m%22,%22,%22,%22.%22,%22//%22,%7Bw/:1%7D,%22shift%22%5D,%0A%5B%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22caps%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22alt%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22win%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22bksp%22,%7Bw/:1.75%7D,%22backspace%22,%7Bw/:1.5%7D,%22fn%22,%7Bw/:1.75%7D,%22space%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22space%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22altgr%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22menu%22,%7Bw/:1.25%7D,%22ctrl%22%5D%5D)
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: tufty on Sat, 27 December 2014, 01:28:19: Shift is one of the most important keys on the board, I'd swap it with backspace. I hate its placement on a QWERTY board, too.
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: obra on Sat, 27 December 2014, 04:13:14: Quote from: tufty on Sat, 27 December 2014, 01:28:19
Shift is one of the most important keys on the board, I'd swap it with backspace. I hate its placement on a QWERTY board, too.

Indeed. On the Model 01, it's a thumb key. I'm mostly looking for commentary on the physical layout, since it'll be fully end-user mappable
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: tufty on Sat, 27 December 2014, 04:27:35: If it were me, I'd probably try to separate the staggered halves even further, pulling zxcv and m,./ to the edges of the board. It'll mean some hand movement for the very centre keys, but should improve hand separation (and feel less cramped to boot).

I don't know if that's do-able with the poker case requirement, though.
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: yasuo on Sat, 27 December 2014, 04:34:08: thumb shift better in split i think, may placing shift in home row CTRL and ' make better
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: obra on Sat, 27 December 2014, 15:48:40: Quote from: tufty on Sat, 27 December 2014, 04:27:35
If it were me, I'd probably try to separate the staggered halves even further, pulling zxcv and m,./ to the edges of the board. It'll mean some hand movement for the very centre keys, but should improve hand separation (and feel less cramped to boot).

I don't know if that's do-able with the poker case requirement, though.

Yeah. This is the sort of layout I prefer and will ship to customers for our "real" first product: (http://media.bestofmicro.com/W/D/453469/original/keyboardio-model-01-backlit.png)
Title: Re: Layout RFC: Symmetric Stagger 60%
Post by: obra on Sat, 27 December 2014, 15:49:39: Quote from: yasuo on Sat, 27 December 2014, 04:34:08
thumb shift better in split i think, may placing shift in home row CTRL and ' make better

Maybe! But because the pinkie finger is shorter, I'm not 100% convinced it's worth the retraining pain. This is what TrulyErgonomic did and I never got used to it.