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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: dorkvader on Tue, 30 December 2014, 00:50:34

Title: tell me about light browns
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 30 December 2014, 00:50:34
I am entertaining the notion of light MX browns.

One of my favourite switches is ergo clear because the lighter spring accentuates the tactile bump. The same ideology applied to MX brown switches could work too.

People who have tried it, please let me know.

Currently I only have 55g springs, but I can always get lighter. I think the issue with very light springs is heavy keycaps. The other issue (stabilizers) is no issue for me because I prefer heavy switches on my modifiers.

Let me know your opinions on the concept in general, how it has worked out for you, and what spring you recommend.
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 30 December 2014, 04:00:05
I tried 45g browns on Nubs' tester last year. They got stuck a lot. Figured I might as well use reds.
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 30 December 2014, 07:33:45
Surely if you made browns any lighter you wouldn't even be able to feel the keys?
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 30 December 2014, 08:19:50
Surely if you made browns any lighter you wouldn't even be able to feel the keys?

If MX Browns were any lighter... they'd be floating...
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 30 December 2014, 09:54:37
Surely if you made browns any lighter you wouldn't even be able to feel the keys?

The thought is that a lighter spring will make the tactile bump more noticeable. This is clearly demonstrated by putting a very heavy spring into a brown (feels linear) or clear (feels like a brown, but very heavy).

I believe the browns I made for Vibex were 50g and they worked fine (I also lubed them). I didn't put keycaps on the board though (since it's not mine).

B'sides topre is only 30g and you can easily feel them. Why not MX brown?
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 30 December 2014, 10:46:11
I wasn't being wholly serious, just that MX brown already has a "typing on thin air" feel to me anyway. I can't imagine wanting to make them lighter.
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 30 December 2014, 14:08:26
Surely if you made browns any lighter you wouldn't even be able to feel the keys?

The thought is that a lighter spring will make the tactile bump more noticeable. This is clearly demonstrated by putting a very heavy spring into a brown (feels linear) or clear (feels like a brown, but very heavy).

I'm pretty sure you are right. I was thinking along the same lines the other days, when I was experimenting with a clear and brown switches sampler.

I put a little bit too much grease in the switches. I use medium thickness grease to silence Cherry MX switches (only the non clicky ones), and it was my first time using this particular grease.

The switches had a little too much grease on the sliders, and it makes them feel heavier (the grease works against the pressure of your finger). As a side effect, the tactile bump was undoubtedly less noticeable.

On the brown switch, it had almost disappeared, while on the clear it felt like a brown's bump.

It must have been discussed already, but when Cherry created the clear switch my guess is that they just wanted a brown with more tactile bump. A stronger spring inside was not the initial plan.

But they probably noticed that depending on the batch quality, some switches would get stuck in the depressed position, especially when there are molding defaults on the slider's bump. To avoid any issue I think that they decided to put a stronger spring inside.

But maybe 99.5% of clears, and browns also, would work just fine with a lighter spring. We are not limited by Cherry's manufacturing constraints, as we can test all our switches one by one, so we can definitely try a lighter spring in browns. If a switch gets stuck, it should be fairly easy to file & lube the bump to fix it.

I think a 30-35g brown switch would be very interesting. But I have not tried this yet.
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: davkol on Tue, 30 December 2014, 14:19:51
It must have been discussed already, but when Cherry created the clear switch my guess is that they just wanted a brown with more tactile bump. A stronger spring inside was not the initial plan.
Clears are older than browns. They supposedly existed in '88 (source: DT wiki), while browns were first made for Kinesis Contoured in early 90's and Cherry Corp. themselves didn't put them in a keyboard until mid 90's.
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: Touch_It on Tue, 30 December 2014, 14:23:16
Light browns sound very interesting.  I would love to try a 30-35g switch, assuming they can be made not to stick.  I usually only use Buckling Spring but would like to try out a light switch for a few weeks.
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 30 December 2014, 16:00:53
It must have been discussed already, but when Cherry created the clear switch my guess is that they just wanted a brown with more tactile bump. A stronger spring inside was not the initial plan.
Clears are older than browns. They supposedly existed in '88 (source: DT wiki), while browns were first made for Kinesis Contoured in early 90's and Cherry Corp. themselves didn't put them in a keyboard until mid 90's.

++

why clears exist is kinda unclear, but they were definitely first
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 30 December 2014, 16:31:01
It must have been discussed already, but when Cherry created the clear switch my guess is that they just wanted a brown with more tactile bump. A stronger spring inside was not the initial plan.
Clears are older than browns. They supposedly existed in '88 (source: DT wiki), while browns were first made for Kinesis Contoured in early 90's and Cherry Corp. themselves didn't put them in a keyboard until mid 90's.

Oh, I didn't know. Thank you for pointing this out.
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: Hypersphere on Tue, 30 December 2014, 17:16:49
Aren't Cherry mx browns already only 45g? Are we talking about the actuation force or the bottoming-out force? In any event, I have a WASD V2 87 with mx browns and thick dye-sub keycaps. It feels extremely light to me. I could get accustomed to most of the keys, but I would like a somewhat heavier spacebar.

Lately, I have been using a KBP V60MTS-C with IBM 5140 dye-sub PBT keycaps; this keyboard feels just right to me, and the switches are rated as 60g (actuation force). However, the force-displacement curve of Matias switches is said to be quite different from that of Cherry mx switches. With Matias, the force drops after actuation, whereas with Cherry switches, the force continues to increase. If you bottom out like I do, Matias switches feel lighter than their actuation force would indicate.

I've tried mx reds. I liked the purity of a purely linear switch, but I missed having a tactile bump. Typing at speed with browns, the tactile bump is not consciously noticeable, yet I prefer browns to reds for typing.

Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 30 December 2014, 17:18:38
theyre 45g at actuation, around 65 at bottom out

something like a korean 45g is different from a cherry 45g, since korean springs are measured at bottom out
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: davkol on Tue, 30 December 2014, 17:40:57
55g peak
45g actuation
60g impact

(from WASD's graphs, ignoring tolerances)
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: Liar on Tue, 30 December 2014, 18:43:58
The Gateron switch tester from Varmilo has 35g Clears on it:

(https://massdrop-cf2.imgix.net/resizer/1500x1000/r/MD-4826_20141219110432_640ae8eeb01aac5d.jpg?fm=jpg&q=70)
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/varmilo-switch-tester (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/varmilo-switch-tester)
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 02 January 2015, 22:01:03
The Gateron switch tester from Varmilo has 35g Clears on it:

Show Image
(https://massdrop-cf2.imgix.net/resizer/1500x1000/r/MD-4826_20141219110432_640ae8eeb01aac5d.jpg?fm=jpg&q=70)

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/varmilo-switch-tester (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/varmilo-switch-tester)

I think that's 35g actuation not 35g bottomout. I have experimented with putting 55g (bottomout) korean springs in a clear and it does not always return.
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: asgeirtj on Fri, 02 January 2015, 22:21:19
I am entertaining the notion of light MX browns.

One of my favourite switches is ergo clear because the lighter spring accentuates the tactile bump. The same ideology applied to MX brown switches could work too.

People who have tried it, please let me know.

Currently I only have 55g springs, but I can always get lighter. I think the issue with very light springs is heavy keycaps. The other issue (stabilizers) is no issue for me because I prefer heavy switches on my modifiers.

Let me know your opinions on the concept in general, how it has worked out for you, and what spring you recommend.

Last mod i made was making a whole board 50g korean browns.  I was excited for it since i'm a very light typist.  However turns out that you should be careful what you wish for since I'm constantly bumping into adjacent keys.  Also, I think its less satisfying to type on.  Since then I've been convinced into the church of clears.  My next board will be 55g korean ergo clears.  I think the 55g is just right for me.
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: dorkvader on Fri, 02 January 2015, 22:58:08
I am entertaining the notion of light MX browns.

One of my favourite switches is ergo clear because the lighter spring accentuates the tactile bump. The same ideology applied to MX brown switches could work too.

People who have tried it, please let me know.

Currently I only have 55g springs, but I can always get lighter. I think the issue with very light springs is heavy keycaps. The other issue (stabilizers) is no issue for me because I prefer heavy switches on my modifiers.

Let me know your opinions on the concept in general, how it has worked out for you, and what spring you recommend.

Last mod i made was making a whole board 50g korean browns.  I was excited for it since i'm a very light typist.  However turns out that you should be careful what you wish for since I'm constantly bumping into adjacent keys.  Also, I think its less satisfying to type on.  Since then I've been convinced into the church of clears.  My next board will be 55g korean ergo clears.  I think the 55g is just right for me.

hmm perhaps 55g clears are the switch for me. Thanks for the input.

Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: Oobly on Sat, 03 January 2015, 16:02:20
I am entertaining the notion of light MX browns.

One of my favourite switches is ergo clear because the lighter spring accentuates the tactile bump. The same ideology applied to MX brown switches could work too.

People who have tried it, please let me know.

Currently I only have 55g springs, but I can always get lighter. I think the issue with very light springs is heavy keycaps. The other issue (stabilizers) is no issue for me because I prefer heavy switches on my modifiers.

Let me know your opinions on the concept in general, how it has worked out for you, and what spring you recommend.

Last mod i made was making a whole board 50g korean browns.  I was excited for it since i'm a very light typist.  However turns out that you should be careful what you wish for since I'm constantly bumping into adjacent keys.  Also, I think its less satisfying to type on.  Since then I've been convinced into the church of clears.  My next board will be 55g korean ergo clears.  I think the 55g is just right for me.

hmm perhaps 55g clears are the switch for me. Thanks for the input.

I use and love 62g ErgoClears and unless they're lubed I believe any lighter springs will allow the stems to stick now and then on the return. So if you do intend to use 55g springs, be sure to lube the stems. You could also shave the mold lines on the stems to smooth them out in lieu of taking the time to wear them in with stronger springs first. It really seems to help a lot, according to the ones I tried it with on my latest project.
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: asgeirtj on Sat, 03 January 2015, 16:40:33
I am entertaining the notion of light MX browns.

One of my favourite switches is ergo clear because the lighter spring accentuates the tactile bump. The same ideology applied to MX brown switches could work too.

People who have tried it, please let me know.

Currently I only have 55g springs, but I can always get lighter. I think the issue with very light springs is heavy keycaps. The other issue (stabilizers) is no issue for me because I prefer heavy switches on my modifiers.

Let me know your opinions on the concept in general, how it has worked out for you, and what spring you recommend.

Last mod i made was making a whole board 50g korean browns.  I was excited for it since i'm a very light typist.  However turns out that you should be careful what you wish for since I'm constantly bumping into adjacent keys.  Also, I think its less satisfying to type on.  Since then I've been convinced into the church of clears.  My next board will be 55g korean ergo clears.  I think the 55g is just right for me.

hmm perhaps 55g clears are the switch for me. Thanks for the input.

I use and love 62g ErgoClears and unless they're lubed I believe any lighter springs will allow the stems to stick now and then on the return. So if you do intend to use 55g springs, be sure to lube the stems. You could also shave the mold lines on the stems to smooth them out in lieu of taking the time to wear them in with stronger springs first. It really seems to help a lot, according to the ones I tried it with on my latest project.

I'm curious, how does a stronger spring make it easier to wear them in?  How strong of a spring would you recommend for such a thing, and how long does it take to "break them in" ?  I take that the springs should be broken in before lubing them? 
Title: Re: tell me about light browns
Post by: spiceBar on Sat, 03 January 2015, 20:22:22
I am entertaining the notion of light MX browns.

One of my favourite switches is ergo clear because the lighter spring accentuates the tactile bump. The same ideology applied to MX brown switches could work too.

People who have tried it, please let me know.

Currently I only have 55g springs, but I can always get lighter. I think the issue with very light springs is heavy keycaps. The other issue (stabilizers) is no issue for me because I prefer heavy switches on my modifiers.

Let me know your opinions on the concept in general, how it has worked out for you, and what spring you recommend.

Last mod i made was making a whole board 50g korean browns.  I was excited for it since i'm a very light typist.  However turns out that you should be careful what you wish for since I'm constantly bumping into adjacent keys.  Also, I think its less satisfying to type on.  Since then I've been convinced into the church of clears.  My next board will be 55g korean ergo clears.  I think the 55g is just right for me.

hmm perhaps 55g clears are the switch for me. Thanks for the input.

I use and love 62g ErgoClears and unless they're lubed I believe any lighter springs will allow the stems to stick now and then on the return. So if you do intend to use 55g springs, be sure to lube the stems. You could also shave the mold lines on the stems to smooth them out in lieu of taking the time to wear them in with stronger springs first. It really seems to help a lot, according to the ones I tried it with on my latest project.

I'm curious, how does a stronger spring make it easier to wear them in?  How strong of a spring would you recommend for such a thing, and how long does it take to "break them in" ?  I take that the springs should be broken in before lubing them?

I think he means that in order to avoid having stuck keys while you are wearing them, you'd better have the stronger springs.

I also believe that stronger springs will push the slider with more velocity on the upstroke, wearing them slightly faster.