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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Defect on Tue, 30 December 2014, 13:01:37

Title: Need A Model F Buyers Guide
Post by: Defect on Tue, 30 December 2014, 13:01:37
Hello Geekhack.

Did a quick google search but didn't see a Model F buyers guide.

Can you guys help me put one together?

What are the different layouts?  I know of XT vs AT, but couldn't tell you the advantages or liabilities when comparing the two.

How many "models" are there?  For each layout/model, I'm hoping to find out the best manufacture years, plug type, and price ranges for beat up, good, like-new, and NIB.

At work right now but will continue to search the forums in my downtime.  Anyone who has time and can contribute, I greatly appreciate it.  Maybe spark some discussion.


Edit: I know there are great info guides on Model F's but I didn't see anything specific to a buyers perspective. 
What are some things to look out for?  Which ones are more mod friendly?  Looking to hear from GH.
Title: Re: Need A Model F Buyers Guide
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 30 December 2014, 13:05:08
Most of the info you seek is out there, you just have to read through many threads to find it :D
Title: Re: Need A Model F Buyers Guide
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 30 December 2014, 13:10:39
I feel like there should be a guide over at DT, or maybe on Reddit/mechanicalkeyboards *cringe*
Title: Re: Need A Model F Buyers Guide
Post by: Defect on Tue, 30 December 2014, 13:10:55
Quote from: SpAmRaY on Tue, 30 December 2014, 13:05:08
Most of the info you seek is out there, you just have to read through many threads to find it :D

Plan on digging when I get a chance but also want to hear from active Geekhackers who have Model F's or who have had experience buying Model F's.  Maybe its already been talked to death in other threads...my bad.

I read that prices are changing though.

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 30 December 2014, 13:10:39
I feel like there should be a guide over at DT, or maybe on Reddit/mechanicalkeyboards *cringe*
Prefer to hear what GH has to say :)
Title: Re: Need A Model F Buyers Guide
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 30 December 2014, 13:13:01
Briefly:

XT has 83 keys and needs an active converter (such as Soarer's XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0)) to work on a modern PC.

AT has 84 keys, and will work on any modern PC using an AT-to-PS2 adapter, if you have a PS2 keyboard port on your mobo.

122-key will require an active converter. Layout can be changed to a more ANSI-standard-like layout, without much trouble. Often confused with 122-key Model M keyboards. Always look for a black metal back to ensure it's a Model F.

Other variants, such as the Bigfoot, 107-key, and 62-key (Kishsaver) exist.

http://kishy.ca has good information for you.
Title: Re: Need A Model F Buyers Guide
Post by: Touch_It on Tue, 30 December 2014, 13:44:42
jdcarpe layed out the basics pretty well as for what the differences are.  As far as pricing goes

XT I would say, in the current market a good medium would be 50-60 dollars with some being more expensive and sometimes (if you are lucky) can be had for around $30.  Personally I would say anything under $50 is a good deal, assuming nothing is really broken or missing.

AT usually goes for more because of a more friendly layout and works with an at to ps2 adapter vs a converter.  Prices seem to vary widely.  You could expect to pay on ebay anywhere from $75 to $200.  I would say anything around 100 including shipping is a good deal.  With that being said, Cindy over on Deskthority will sell them for well below face value.  The cavat being there are waiting lists.

122 key expect to pay around 75-125 for one on ebay.  Note that market prices change and you may not see any on ebay for months and the price a few months ago was $150.  Recently, i believe there were some at $75 or lower.

Other variants, pricing gets weird due to scarcity.  If you want one, my advice would be to buy asap when you see one, assuming the price isn't crazy.  Crazy is a pretty abstract word but it is different for everyone.
Title: Re: Need A Model F Buyers Guide
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 30 December 2014, 19:30:44
XT - 83 keys, convertible with an XTant kit and USB capsense controller; ~$50
(http://clickykeyboard.com/2012/may26/016)

AT - 84 keys, usually modded to ANSI and adding Alt keys by replacing the long space bar with a 7x one; ~$100
(http://i45.tinypic.com/15f61t.jpg)

F122 - most common Model F, convertible with a Teensy / Soarer to USB; ~$80
(http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/Images/6110344.jpg)

F50 - all metal case, convertible with a USB capsense controller; ~$100
F62 - all metal case aka Kishsaver/Tinsaver, convertible with a USB capsense controller; ~$200
F77 - all metal case, convertible with a USB capsense controller, only three known examples; ~$300
F107 - all metal case, convertible with a USB capsense controller; ~$200
(http://kkraftonline.de/Museum/data/images/4704%20Keyboards%202.jpg)

There are less common variants of many of these boards as well.

EDIT :

Forgot the 3178 boards - they are convertible to USB capsense as well, but they are probably good parts donor boards; ~$25
(http://webwit.nl/input/ibm_misc/c1_and_c2.jpg)
Title: Re: Need A Model F Buyers Guide
Post by: Touch_It on Tue, 30 December 2014, 19:33:57

Quote from: 0100010 on Tue, 30 December 2014, 19:30:44
XT - 83 keys, convertible with an XTant kit and USB capsense controller; ~$50
Show Image
(http://clickykeyboard.com/2012/may26/016)


AT - 84 keys, usually modded to ANSI and adding Alt keys by replacing the long space bar with a 7x one; ~$100
Show Image
(http://i45.tinypic.com/15f61t.jpg)


F122 - most common Model F, convertible with a Teensy / Soarer to USB; ~$80
Show Image
(http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/Images/6110344.jpg)


F50 - all metal case, convertible with a USB capsense controller; ~$100
F62 - all metal case aka Kishsaver/Tinsaver, convertible with a USB capsense controller; ~$200
F77 - all metal case, convertible with a USB capsense controller, only three known examples; ~$300
F107 - all metal case, convertible with a USB capsense controller; ~$200
Show Image
(http://kkraftonline.de/Museum/data/images/4704%20Keyboards%202.jpg)


There are less common variants of many of these boards as well.

Makes my post look nub.  I'm going to use the i was at work card, lol.
Title: Re: Need A Model F Buyers Guide
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 30 December 2014, 20:20:19
Excellent work guys.

I don't have anything to add except my method for getting close to an ANSI/Model M layout:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.msg1338079#msg1338079 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.msg1338079#msg1338079)
Title: Re: Need A Model F Buyers Guide
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 30 December 2014, 20:48:39
Quote from: 0100010 on Tue, 30 December 2014, 19:30:44
XT - 83 keys, ~$50
AT - 84 keys, usually modded to ANSI and adding Alt keys by replacing the long space bar with a 7x one; ~$100
F122 - most common Model F, ~$80
[4704] F50 ~$100; F62 ~$200; F77 ~$300; F107 ~$200
These prices seem pretty optimistic to me, from what I’ve seen on ebay over the past year or so; more realistically these are about the best prices you can expect with a fair amount of hunting around ebay (with a lot more hunting, you might find cheaper).

- The XTs can occasionally be found for $50 + shipping, or very rarely for cheaper, but they often sell at $80+.

- AT prices are all over the map; sometimes they’re lower than F122 prices, sometimes higher. I’ve seen them anywhere from $60 to $200+. In the past 4 months the range has been like $130–300, with a couple of mistitled ones going for cheaper.

- It’s quite rare for F122s to be found for <$100, and I’ve seen several go for more like $200.

Personally I’d suggest $50 as a fair price for an XT, and $100 as a pretty good price for either an F122 or an AT, but all of those are lower than the average prices these go for: a "buy it now" listing on ebay will typically sell within a couple weeks at $75 for an XT or at $150 for an AT or F122. [The price seems a bit silly to me for XTs, considering they use a wacky layout and need a converter to work on modern machines, but it is what it is.]

* * *

The 4704 boards were incredibly rare until quite recently: a few people had the 62-key and 50-key versions, but the other two types were all stuck on bank warehouse shelves. A bunch showed up in the last few months, but now that the briefly available stock has sold out, it’s difficult to find new ones at any price. If you want to buy one from someone in this community who already has one, I think it’ll definitely take more than $200 for the 62/107-key versions and more than $300 for the 77-key. A 77-key 4704 board would definitely fetch >$300 on ebay if it went up right now. I’m not sure about the other: probably would depend on how widely publicized the auction was.

Not too many people in the wider world even know these bank terminal boards exist, so there isn’t all that much demand, but a bunch of folks around the geekhack/deskthority community still really want one and have plenty of cash to drop. I’m really sure quite what the market price is, or what it will be in 6 months.

I’m sure there are still many stuck in various banks, but it’s non-trivial to find them.