Personally, I feel Browns and Reds are the worst switches there are.
Dear god no. There certainly one of the lesser liked MX switches, so they're rated about where they should be typically
"blacks: worthless"Dear god no. There certainly one of the lesser liked MX switches, so they're rated about where they should be typically
This GH forum seems to have very well-informed folks, so maybe that's the consensus around people who know.
It's just that for a noob who doesn't have experience with the switches, most links you find Google recommend Brown for gaming.
E.g. like this article:
http://www.furiouspaul.com/articles/cherry-mx-keyboard-switches.html
Browns are usually the first entry switch for MK buyers.
Koreans love their "vintage" browns though.
90% of the people here hate browns
Dear god no. There certainly one of the lesser liked MX switches, so they're rated about where they should be typically
gritty red [...] a lot on newcomers seems to think that browns are "quiet blue" which is infuriating.I’d say all MX switches are either linear or could be called “gritty linear” or perhaps “linear with a little speed bump”. I think “quiet blue” is a pretty accurate description of MX brown. If you put noise-canceling headphones on over ear plugs, MX blue and brown feel fairly comparable.
gritty red [...] a lot on newcomers seems to think that browns are "quiet blue" which is infuriating.I’d say all MX switches are either linear or could be called “gritty linear” or perhaps “linear with a little speed bump”. I think “quiet blue” is a pretty accurate description of MX brown. If you put noise-canceling headphones on over ear plugs, MX blue and brown feel fairly comparable.
Even without the click they are completely different , blue being heavier and much more tactile .Have you tried without sound? The sound changes the way it subjectively feels. MX blue is really not very tactile. I think “gritty red with a plasticky tick sound” is a pretty fair description.
I indeed never tried without sound , will try and report back .Even without the click they are completely different , blue being heavier and much more tactile .Have you tried without sound? The sound changes the way it subjectively feels. MX blue is really not very tactile. I think “gritty red with a plasticky tick sound” is a pretty fair description.
after reading blog articles and forum threads that said that Brown is superior to Red for gaming
Blue isn't indeed that tactile , the sound makes it all , now I'm confused . But I can still feel the weighting difference between blue and brown .Even without the click they are completely different , blue being heavier and much more tactile .Have you tried without sound? The sound changes the way it subjectively feels. MX blue is really not very tactile. I think “gritty red with a plasticky tick sound” is a pretty fair description.
Blue isn't indeed that tactile , the sound makes it all , now I'm confused . But I can still feel the weighting difference between blue and brown .Even without the click they are completely different , blue being heavier and much more tactile .Have you tried without sound? The sound changes the way it subjectively feels. MX blue is really not very tactile. I think “gritty red with a plasticky tick sound” is a pretty fair description.
I think MX brown is a great choice...it actuates about halfway through the stroke which is a full 4mm
Also , since I keep contributing to /r/mk daily questions thread , a lot on newcomers seems to think that browns are "quiet blue" which is infuriating .I know the feeling. I think that the important difference between blues and browns/clears/ergo-clears is that blues feel "snappier" since the slider part of the switch "jumps" over the tactile bump. With browns/clears/ergo-clears, you have to keep pushing for the entire distance of the switch's travel, so they won't feel exactly like blues or greens.
I think MX brown is a great choice...it actuates about halfway through the stroke which is a full 4mm
AFAIK that's not correct.
My understanding is that Cherry MX switches register a keystroke 2mm into the keypress regardless of color - i.e. 33% into the keypress not 50% - and then there is 4mm of additional keypress before bottoming out. (Note due to minor manufacturing differences the actual measurements may be slightly different).
And the actuation bump is just before the initial 2mm, so it's very early in the keypress.
You can see how little you need to depress a key (Brown switch shown) in order for it to actuate...Show Image(https://taugrim.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/cherry-mx-brown-actuation.jpg)
...relative to how far you can actually push keys before they bottom out...Show Image(https://taugrim.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/o-ring-red-vs-blue-aligned.jpg)
You're incorrect. According to cherry specs, MX series switches have 0.08 inches (~2.03mm) of pretravel (before actuation), and 0.16 inches (~4.06mm) of total travel.
Source: http://cherrycorp.com/product/mx-series/
In the dimensions section, there's a chart detailing pretravel and total travel distances. It's in inches, but it's not too hard to convert.
Wasn't there a thread opened a few weeks ago with the exact same conversation?Welcome to 2015. It's not 1995 anymore, the Internet has changed.
Browns feel like broken scratchy reds to me.
Wasn't there a thread opened a few weeks ago with the exact same conversation?Welcome to 2015. It's not 1995 anymore, the Internet has changed.
2 months ago (~8 weeks)
Why do people hate MX browns?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=64990.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=64990.0)
Last year I purchased my first mechanical keyboard, the CM Storm QuickFire Rapid, with Red switches for both gaming and typing, but with an emphasis on gaming performance.
Even though I loved my keyboard, I started questioning whether I'd bought the right color switches after reading blog articles and forum threads that said that Brown is superior to Red for gaming, and that the tactile bump of the Browns provides meaningful feedback.
So I purchased a CM Storm keyboard with Brown switches and tested both keyboards over several days, with and without different color O-rings.
I found that the placement of the tactile bump of the Brown switches to be too early in the keypress and too subtle to inform my keypresses - in most cases as soon as I felt like I'd started pressing a key, I'd already passed the tactile bump. This isn't a flaw necessarily in the tactile bump itself, but rather the fact that the switch registers a keystroke very early in the keypress, and the tactile bump is just before that.
I explain this in an article I posted, along with photos:
http://taugrim.com/2015/01/03/red-vs-brown-cherry-mx-switches-red-vs-blue-o-rings/ (http://taugrim.com/2015/01/03/red-vs-brown-cherry-mx-switches-red-vs-blue-o-rings/)
I'm curious to hear what those of you who have used both switch colors (and others) think about Brown switches I understand per the stickied FAQ that there is no "right" answer here. I was just disappointed by the feel of the Brown switches, after reading so much hype about them.
it's good to go by your personal scale of preference ;)
Yes, if I press the keys slowly, browns feel like "dirty reds". However, when typing at speed, the grittiness disappears, yet I prefer typing on browns to typing on reds, because it seems there is a tactile bump that somehow registers subconsciously.
what is the treshhold for "worn in" browns or is it a placebo like vintage blacks?Brand new MX switches from ~1990 (black, brown, blue, clear, etc.) are noticeably different than brand new switches you can buy today. If you get your hands on some of each, you can easily verify this for yourself. I haven’t tried very old MX clear switches, but “vintage” blue switches are a bit less clicky, and “vintage” brown and black switches are very noticeably less scratchy, even brand new. This apparently has to do with the insides of switch housings being smoother on 25 year old switches than current switches, but I don’t think anyone has definitively established whether the plastic formula changed, or the steel tooling changed / wore out, or some detail of the injection molding process changed, or the factory-applied lubricant changed in material or application.
Neither the differences between “vintage” and “modern” switches, nor the differences between new and heavily used switches are “placebos”. You can hold a pair of loose switches up to your ear and press them side by side with obviously different results.
I've had multiple "good" "new" vintage Blacks, new old Blacks, new new Blacks, old "vintage" Blacks, old old Blacks, and broken in new Blacks. I've tried three of the four permutations of Blacks that I know. The difference in feel is well within the margin of error as there are good new Blacks and good "vintage" Blacks as well as bad ones of them. I have never noticed a significant difference, not one that justifies the hype.Okay, well I feel like there’s a night and day difference between these particular two batches of switches. What does “margin of error” mean in this context? If you handed me a pair of switches from the batches I’ve tried, I could pick out which one was which easily, every time.
(from a keyboard with ABS caps with absolutely perfect texture left on them, so it can’t have been used for more than a few days of typing tops
Okay, well I feel like there’s a night and day difference between these particular two batches of switches. What does “margin of error” mean in this context? If you handed me a pair of switches from the batches I’ve tried, I could pick out which one was which easily, every time.
So is your claim something like: Cherry MX has always had a huge variance in switch smoothness, with some being extremely smooth, and others feeling like sandpaper?
I guess that’s plausible. I’ve only tried a few batches of switches, and maybe it was sheer luck that the 3 circa 1990 switches were all quite smooth and the >2010 switches were all sandpapery.
(from a keyboard with ABS caps with absolutely perfect texture left on them, so it can’t have been used for more than a few days of typing tops
do you mean YOU used them for less than a few days? cause it takes me like 2 months of full time work before i can tell.
I've tried it blind. I find that when I do it blind with equal number of switches, I find less than a 20% variance in the number of each that I find "buttery smooth" as "vintage" Blacks are often described. It's probably closer to 10%. Given that I don't have a massive sample size to test with, it really isn't statistically significant. And when I've sorted by the worst feeling switches, the margin is closer to 10% or less.How many of the sets of switches you’ve tried were in extremely good condition? Poor storage conditions (especially dust/grit getting into the switch internals) makes a huge difference to keyswitches. I’m sure it’s possible to find old switches which were stored improperly and now feel super scratchy.
Now I want a keyboard with dry ice/teflon switches!-spray the entire switch housing with teflon
I've tried it blind. I find that when I do it blind with equal number of switches, I find less than a 20% variance in the number of each that I find "buttery smooth" as "vintage" Blacks are often described. It's probably closer to 10%. Given that I don't have a massive sample size to test with, it really isn't statistically significant. And when I've sorted by the worst feeling switches, the margin is closer to 10% or less.How many of the sets of switches you’ve tried were in extremely good condition? Poor storage conditions (especially dust/grit getting into the switch internals) makes a huge difference to keyswitches. I’m sure it’s possible to find old switches which were stored improperly and now feel super scratchy.
What I’m more curious about is whether anyone has found an extremely smooth batch of recent switches? I’ve never heard someone claim they have.
Here’s a subjective scale:
2 = worst old Alps switch I ever tried, totally filled with dirt to the point it almost stopped working
4 = scratchy almost new MX red switch from ~2012
7.5 = NIB white space invader switch
7.5 = NIB green Alps from ~1987
8.5 = lubed (krytox?) spring-swapped MX black switch in nuclearsandwich’s 456GT
9.5 = sliding a block of dry ice across a teflon surface
On that scale, the nearly new vintage MX black switches I’ve tried are in the ~6.5 range.
ALL my new MX switches are scratchy. Every single one. Browns, Clears and Blacks. I'd guess around 3.5 on your scale, although it's definitely more noticable on the tactile switches. [...] Just using them to try and wear them in really takes a long time and a lot of use, but would eventually get them to the same point as the vintage switches I reckon.That’s something that would be interesting to test with some kind of automated keypresser. Try 3 million keypresses and see if the new MX black switches feel as nice as the old ones.
I also happen to think MX spring choices are poor. They should replace all their springs with 62g and sell just one variant of each of their types: Blues, Clears and Blacks.Agreed. The Korean 62–67g springs make for better switches than the original springs for most typists. I wonder to what extent it’s possible for hobbyists to alter individual MX sliders or machine new ones as prototypes. I think if as a community folks came up with some nice 1–3 switch tweaks, it might be possible to convince Kaihua to match it in a production version. Kaihua seems interested overall in trying to be recognized as (at least a tiny bit) intentionally designed, not purely cheaper clones.
No switch is inferior or superior to another switch, it's all just personal preference.Nah. It just depends how you define the criteria. And we're all (probably) Homo sapiens sapiens, i.e. more or less the same. Plus more or less the same (cultural) biases.
No switch is inferior or superior to another switch, it's all just personal preference.That’s total nonsense. There are all sorts of criteria by which we can judge switches, and for many we can find broad agreement. For example, all else equal, I doubt anyone prefers a switch which binds when pressed off-axis (the way Cherry ML does), sticks at the bottom of the stroke without returning (the way an unlubed spring-swapped MX clear switch often does), registers double keypresses (this is typically some combination of chattery switches + bad firmware), fails to actuate at all every other keypress (like the enter key on my garage door keypad), actuates before the tactile/click point (like NEC and Omron switches), breaks easily (like Aristotle MX clones, reportedly), wobbles (like simplified Alps switches and many Alps clones), feels like sandpaper as it goes down (like the MX switches we’re all complaining about here), has a very uneven bumpy force curve (like black Alps switches circa 1995).
No switch is inferior or superior to another switch, it's all just personal preference.That�s total nonsense. There are all sorts of criteria by which we can judge switches, and for many we can find broad agreement. For example, all else equal, I doubt anyone prefers a switch which binds when pressed off-axis (the way Cherry ML does), sticks at the bottom of the stroke without returning (the way an unlubed spring-swapped MX clear switch often does), registers double keypresses (this is typically some combination of chattery switches + bad firmware), fails to actuate at all every other keypress (like the enter key on my garage door keypad), actuates before the tactile/click point (like NEC and Omron switches), breaks easily (like Aristotle MX clones, reportedly), wobbles (like simplified Alps switches and many Alps clones), feels like sandpaper as it goes down (like the MX switches we�re all complaining about here), has a very uneven bumpy force curve (like black Alps switches circa 1995).
Then there are other switch attributes which get to the style/character of the switch. We can often judge switches by how nearly they approach certain ideals for a particular switch type (but this is a bit iffier than above, because there isn�t total consensus about what feeling is desirable within those categories). For example, if a switch aims to have a crisp tactile click, we can judge how crisp and how dramatic that click is; if a switch aims to be silent, we can judge it for any noise it makes. But someone might prefer a switch that is clicky but with a slightly rounded feeling to the click, or a very quiet switch that nonetheless makes a bit of noise, so this isn�t as clear cut. Other details are more subjective still.
This post is ridiculous...Which part do you find ridiculous?
I don't go around saying blues are inferior.Perhaps you’re talking about a different post? My post you quoted doesn’t say anything even remotely similar to that.
I have never seen a Cherry MX switch that "feels like sandpaper."*cough cough* reds *cough cough*
There's a big difference between preference and a universal acknowledgement that there is a problem with the switch. [...] Claiming there is some consensus on that is BS...No one said there was universal consensus on anything.
No switch is inferior or superior to another switch, it's all just personal preference.That’s total nonsense. There are all sorts of criteria by which we can judge switches, and for many we can find broad agreement. For example, all else equal, I doubt anyone prefers a switch which binds when pressed off-axis (the way Cherry ML does), sticks at the bottom of the stroke without returning (the way an unlubed spring-swapped MX clear switch often does), registers double keypresses (this is typically some combination of chattery switches + bad firmware), fails to actuate at all every other keypress (like the enter key on my garage door keypad), actuates before the tactile/click point (like NEC and Omron switches), breaks easily (like Aristotle MX clones, reportedly), wobbles (like simplified Alps switches and many Alps clones), feels like sandpaper as it goes down (like the MX switches we’re all complaining about here), has a very uneven bumpy force curve (like black Alps switches circa 1995).
Then there are other switch attributes which get to the style/character of the switch. We can often judge switches by how nearly they approach certain ideals for a particular switch type (but this is a bit iffier than above, because there isn’t total consensus about what feeling is desirable within those categories). For example, if a switch aims to have a crisp tactile click, we can judge how crisp and how dramatic that click is; if a switch aims to be silent, we can judge it for any noise it makes. But someone might prefer a switch that is clicky but with a slightly rounded feeling to the click, or a very quiet switch that nonetheless makes a bit of noise, so this isn’t as clear cut. Other details are more subjective still.
Sorry you had to type all that, but you're wrong. It's personal preference.Let me spell out what you are claiming in concrete terms:
I prefer Browns to all the other switches I have tried.No one is disputing your preference. It’s entirely reasonable, there’s nothing wrong with it.
the "best" switch is a matter of personal preference.Every single person on this thread agrees with this statement. (Even though the Topre people will sometimes troll you by saying otherwise.)
It's confusing to meDo you want me to try to explain again? I’m trying to be as clear as possible, but the point I’m making seems to be really difficult for some of you to understand.
As I and many others have already said, I prefer Browns (which many here claim to be scratchy) to all the other switches I have tried. Malfunctioning switches aside, I agree with ynrozturk and maintain that the "best" switch is a matter of personal preference. It's confusing to me that some people are having such a hard time understanding that other people might have different switch preferences than their own.It's the same issue (leaving out common human factors) as with (1) subjectivists and (2) lack of comparison in audio. There are believers, and there's this "omg godly ath-m50 master race sooo good" crowd, that unfortunately hasn't used anything else worthy of comparison.
Maybe in Turkey everyone’s a masochist who likes cheap/slightly broken tools?
You claim to prefer browns. Have you used 45g Topre? Complicated tactile Alps or Matias Quiet switches? Logitech's new omrons? Tactile Mitsumi miniature switches? …? That's the point.
You claim to prefer browns. Have you used 45g Topre? Complicated tactile Alps or Matias Quiet switches? Logitech's new omrons? Tactile Mitsumi miniature switches? �? That's the point.
Oh I get it now, you're one of those ****ing idiots.There should have been a smiley face there. I was just teasing you because you are still totally missing my point, and I don’t know how to write it any more clearly. (The implication of the teasing sentence being that: well, where I’m from if I hand out two linear switches which are identical except for one being smoother, everyone I know will choose the smoother one, but maybe where you’re from people all choose randomly or prefer the scratchier one. More realistically, I suspect that everyone everywhere prefers the smoother one, and you’re just being stubborn and/or you don’t understand my argument.)
Oh I get it now, you're one of those ****ing idiots.There should have been a smiley face there. I was just teasing you because you are still totally missing my point, and I don’t know how to write it any more clearly. (The implication of the teasing sentence being that: well, where I’m from if I hand out two linear switches which are identical except for one being smoother, everyone I know will choose the smoother one, but maybe where you’re from people all choose randomly or prefer the scratchier one. More realistically, I suspect that everyone everywhere prefers the smoother one, and you’re just being stubborn and/or you don’t understand my argument.)
Anyhow, nevermind. It’s not worth getting worked up about. Give it a few days and come back and read more carefully, and I’m sure you can figure it out. I have faith in your powers of basic literacy ynrozturk.
Sorry you had to type all that, but you're wrong. It's personal preference.Let me spell out what you are claiming in concrete terms:
1. There are people who prefer a scratchy switch to an otherwise identical smoother switch
2. There are people who prefer a switch that sometimes fail to actuate or sometimes double-actuates to an otherwise identical switch that works consistently
3. There are people who prefer a switch that actuates slightly before the tactile point to an otherwise identical switch that actuates at or slightly after the tactile point
4. There are people who prefer a switch that binds when pressed slightly off center to an otherwise identical switch which does not
5. There are people who prefer a switch which sticks at the bottom to an otherwise identical switch which does not
etc.
I maintain that that’s nonsense. Please find me some of these crazy people. Maybe in Turkey everyone’s a masochist who likes cheap/slightly broken tools?
Scratchy is subjective. Some people don't feel MX are scratchy. Not to mention some people enjoy a bit more friction (and others do not). [...] sounds like you're trying to weasel your way into showing how MX switches are inferior...Who likes more friction? I’ve never heard from this person who savors a frictiony switch.
Who likes more friction? I’ve never heard from this person who savors a frictiony switch.
You’re putting words in my mouth.
All Cherry switches are overrated.
geekhack dot org is the only place on the internet where there are flame wars about what you use in a keyboardI love the notion that Cherry Browns are somehow "beginner" switches, and that Reds, Clears, etc. are for "advanced users".
geekhack dot org is the only place on the internet where there are flame wars about what you use in a keyboardI love the notion that Cherry Browns are somehow "beginner" switches, and that Reds, Clears, etc. are for "advanced users".
All Cherry switches are overrated.
My only mechanical keyboard atm is a Poker II with cherry mx browns, and while I love it, I really want to try clears.
geekhack dot org is the only place on the internet where there are flame wars about what you use in a keyboardI love the notion that Cherry Browns are somehow "beginner" switches, and that Reds, Clears, etc. are for "advanced users".
Lol. All Cherry switches are beginner switches.
Its interesting enough that I've lurked through a few of these phases of switch preference.
Back before the surge of Mechanical keyboards, there was a distinct "OMG BLACKS ARE THE BEST!!!". The general comments were that they're stiff enough to prevent bottoming out, and if you couldn't handle them your fingers were weak. Blacks at this point demanded a premium of ~$10 per keyboard.
Shortly after, we had a parallel surge of Browns and reds due to the lighter springs. Acknowledgement that you CAN type lighter on the lighter springs, and less fatigue meant you could go longer. However, the increase of pro gamers using reds pushed the red switches up in demand. Blacks were deemed stupid, and fell completely out of favour to the point where some boards weren't offered in blacks. This led to a parallel surge in pricing for browns and reds (similar to the blacks of old), with reds occasionally demanding a higher premium than browns.
At that point the demand for clears had grown so much that a few boards (ducky special, WASD had a limited run) offered clears. Deck was the only other maker that offered clears.
Just as I sort of fell out with buying more keyboards (thank god I managed to stop at 3 + a keypad), blues were coming into favour for typists/coders but they were more to balance demand (blacks stayed low).
Now its interesting that people shun browns altogether, and people are commonly recommending greens and whites.
Personal recommendation? play with each switch for about 20 minutes if you can. Ignore any differences in gritty-ness, as that diminishes in as little as a day of constant typing (or about a month on the longer end). 20 minutes will be enough to ascertain if the stiffer switches will cause too much fatigue, or if they're within your preference.
I ended up moving away from browns (the bumps actually made me bottom out every time), to blacks (you eventually adapt to just hitting the keys about half way... muscle memory.). Figure out which one suits your needs best, and that will be "the best" for you.