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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: hazel-ra on Fri, 07 August 2009, 21:38:36

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Fri, 07 August 2009, 21:38:36

Hello everyone -

I have two IBM M2 that have fried chips ( or hopefully, more precisely, dried capacitors ) which I will attempt to fix shortly, thanks to posts I found on this board.

In the interim, I got a unicomp model M, and although it has buckling springs, I'm less then happy. Now I remember why I got rid of my IBM model Ms; it feels like it takes too much force to press a key. It feels like I'm playing the piano. I looked at the keys from the M compared to keys from my M2s and other cherry-switch keyboards that I like, and I noticed that the model M keys were taller. This might be a factor

Are there any brand-new M2 clones out there, with short, buckling spring keys? Something that mimics the feel of the M2 keystroke?

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 08 August 2009, 06:38:17

Could you fit the M2 keycaps onto an M/Unicomp?

I agree with Webwit though, there really shouldnt be that much difference between the two of them.

Title: thanks
Post by: hazel-ra on Sat, 08 August 2009, 10:37:02

Hey everyone, thanks for your interest and responses.

I don't really know what the difference is physically between the Unicomp M that I'm using and an m2, but I can tell you that the feel is noticeably different. The M seems to require more strength to depress the keys, and I can feel it in my fingers, wrists and elbows as I use it. The M keys feel much more stiff :)

If anyone knows what I'm talking about, and can recommend a keyboard with the m2 feel, buckling springs or no, please drop me a line! :)

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 08 August 2009, 10:48:46

If you want a buckling spring board that isnt as stiff as a regular Model M or even M2, you might want to check out the PC/AT Model F. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5050) The layout isn't exactly ideal, but the fact that everyone around here who has one loves them says an awful lot about how good they are.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 08 August 2009, 11:18:26

Quote from: webwit;108185

I'm afraid it is the same spring and switch and travel, and only the keycap is shorter. But I have no clue what I'm talking about, so I hope someone drops you a line.

If you took that picture with at the same magnification the springs on the M2 looks to be smaller in diameter. Which may translate to less force. But like you I'm just blowing smoke. Like the original poster I like M's but my fingers can't take them for very long before they start to hurt. That is the main reason I ended up here in a search for a replacement. I may just have to get one of those M2 just to see for myself.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 08 August 2009, 11:20:50

Quote from: ch_123;108186

If you want a buckling spring board that isnt as stiff as a regular Model M or even M2, you might want to check out the PC/AT Model F. (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5050) The layout isn't exactly ideal, but the fact that everyone around here who has one loves them says an awful lot about how good they are.

May be true but finding them for sale is hard. I've found the older XT versions and the old ones with what looks like a serial connector on them but I have yet to find a AT version that I can get. But then again I've only been looking for about a week. If you know where to get them please post some links I think I want to try one of the Model F's

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 08 August 2009, 11:30:50

Quote from: webwit;108190

Damn. I don't think we can keep the M3 with titanium springs a collector's secret any much longer.

Sssh! You're not meant to tell anyone about those... Or the Model X...

Quote

May be true but finding them for sale is hard. I've found the older XT versions and the old ones with what looks like a serial connector on them but I have yet to find a AT version that I can get. But then again I've only been looking for about a week. If you know where to get them please post some links I think I want to try one of the Model F's

Yeah, they are a rather obscure item, and have been getting more and more rare as time goes on. ncbound sells one every few months, and Brian O' Neill had one recently. I'd suggest that you just keep looking.

Best way to find them on eBay is to search for the 'IBM AT Keyboard', their Model F name is not well known outside of places like Geekhack.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 08 August 2009, 11:51:45

Ok I'll not get one for now or maybe just wait a bit before getting one. There is a Topre calling to me right now that I'm going to order next week. If I get one of the M2 now I would have to delay getting one of these:

(http://www.vshopu.com/souldout/TP_DG0380/DSCF0003.jpg)

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 08 August 2009, 11:53:56

Quote from: ripster;108203

Be sure to post back on your M2 capacitor replacement results.

Not a lot of M2s on US Ebay (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=ibm+m2+keyboard&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=ibm+m2&_osacat=0) right now. One looks like the H1N1 virus special.  One joker has a starting bid of $99.  The other has a BIN of $50.  I just bought two NIB Model Ms for $30 each so I'm not going with those.

Yea I already saw those. You do have to say though that the $99 one is very clean. But man that H1N1 virus one would need to be decontaminated and I'm not sure it is worth the trouble.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 08 August 2009, 11:58:42

Quote from: ripster;108207

I wasn't going to say anything about the mini Topre (I always encourage people to try something new) but did you notice the number row has different SHIFT characters?  I just memorized em and ain't gonna change now so I'd have to AutoHotkey that sucker all over the place.

Yea with those extra keys on the bottom row I can think off all kinds of cool things to do with them. But I will be doing it in xmodmap. I'll end up remapping most of those key.

As far as mentioning it I think webwit wants one as well. I just hope I can still get one.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: lecorsair on Sat, 08 August 2009, 12:13:45

Might want to give the 42H1331 from Brian O'neil a try, but will have to do a little modding. It's very straightforward and simpler than it sounds. The 42H1331 is a POS keyboard with a rj-25 connector. Having modded mine several years ago, I forgot the exact process, but the general steps are: get a ps2 cable, use a multi-meter to find the cable/pin assignment. Do a search for "42H1331" on google, I think there's a site that tell you what's the pin assignment on the rj-25 cable relative to the 42H1331. You can reuse the white keyboard connector if you can disassemble it cleanly, or if you have a Fry's around they stock them. Once you have the ps2 mapped, you can then attach the ps2 cable to the connector in the correct order. Attach connector to keyboard/re-assemble keyboard and voila! you have a working M2...mostly. Being that the 42H1331 is a POS board, some of the symbols/accent keys are not in the standard layout.

If that's too much work, you might then consider purchasing the 42H1331 and swapping out the parts with your old M2.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: lecorsair on Sat, 08 August 2009, 13:18:42

Thanks for the welcome!

These two photos were taken with a 50mm lens so I can't really get a better closeup, but it will give you an idea. The layout is not exactly the same, but easily adaptable for daily use, I alternate with a dinovo for night-use when my wife is giving the evil eyes.

(http://www.flickr.com/photos/goodthyme/3801697492/sizes/l/)

(http://www.flickr.com/photos/goodthyme/3801701748/sizes/l/)

Seems I'm inept/not allowed to posting photos, so here's the like to flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/goodthyme/3801701748/sizes/l/

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Sat, 08 August 2009, 14:03:47

Quote from: ripster;108191

iMav once did (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=4853&highlight=m2) a 1:1 swap of M spring/hammers for M2 spring/hammers.  He didn't seem to see any difference.

Age of the M2 springs may be a factor here too.

Hm... a thought occurs to me. I could take out the aged springs from my M2 with a busted chip, and use them to replace the springs in my brand-new model M.... Worth the effort? I think I'll try to repair the chips first.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Sat, 08 August 2009, 14:17:51

Quote from: lecorsair;108221

Might want to give the 42H1331 from Brian O'neil a try, but will have to do a little modding. It's very straightforward and simpler than it sounds. The 42H1331 is a POS keyboard with a rj-25 connector. Having modded mine several years ago, I forgot the exact process, but the general steps are: get a ps2 cable, use a multi-meter to find the cable/pin assignment. Do a search for "42H1331" on google, I think there's a site that tell you what's the pin assignment on the rj-25 cable relative to the 42H1331. You can reuse the white keyboard connector if you can disassemble it cleanly, or if you have a Fry's around they stock them. Once you have the ps2 mapped, you can then attach the ps2 cable to the connector in the correct order. Attach connector to keyboard/re-assemble keyboard and voila! you have a working M2...mostly. Being that the 42H1331 is a POS board, some of the symbols/accent keys are not in the standard layout.

If that's too much work, you might then consider purchasing the 42H1331 and swapping out the parts with your old M2.

Forgive me for being dense, but I don't understand what's being proposed in either scenarios. What parts from which keyboards are being put where? And what is the result?

Who is Brian O'neil? I googled the name with that spelling, and also with 42H1331, but got no results.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 08 August 2009, 14:25:29

He's a seller on eBay. He's one of the better sources of old IBM boards out there.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Sat, 08 August 2009, 14:26:35

Quote from: ripster;108191

iMav once did (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=4853&highlight=m2) a 1:1 swap of M spring/hammers for M2 spring/hammers.  He didn't seem to see any difference.

Age of the M2 springs may be a factor here too.

Actually, looking at the difference a bit more, I'm thinking what I'm noticing and not liking is the key height. The keys of the model M are much taller ( about twice the height ), although the height of the spring chamber is the only slightly less for the M2.  

To my mechanically disinclined mind, I can't figure out why I would notice taller keys when the spring chamber is nearly the same, but I don't think I'm imagining things.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 08 August 2009, 14:31:59

Id say that it's possibly spring wear. Old Model Ms tend to feel much less firm after they've been used. I'd say your M2 is just worn out somewhat and you have become used to how this feels.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Sat, 08 August 2009, 14:32:18

Quote from: ch_123;108276

He's a seller on eBay. He's one of the better sources of old IBM boards out there.

Are you saying that there's a way to more easily repair my m2s, either by migrating out the keys and mechanisms to another keyboard, or migrating in a new chip? I sure hope so!

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 08 August 2009, 15:20:13

Or just replace the capacitor, probably easier in the long run.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Sat, 08 August 2009, 16:44:12

Quote from: ch_123;108295

Or just replace the capacitor, probably easier in the long run.

Yeah, but I feel I'm more liable to screw that up, and permanently wreck the board. I don't have much experience with de-soldering. I would really like to just swap out the chip!

BTW, does anyone know where I can buy the replacement capacitors online? I went to my local radio shack and they don't carry them.

What I need are :
2.2uF 63v electrolytic
47uF 16v tantalum

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 08 August 2009, 16:48:04

^^^ What ch said.

If it works, the fix is the cheapest and easiest way. If you're not sure you can do it, ask a friend. Or post in the thread (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5065).

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 08 August 2009, 16:55:26

Quote from: hazel-ra;108300

Yeah, but I feel I'm more liable to screw that up, and permanently wreck the board. I don't have much experience with de-soldering. I would really like to just swap out the chip!

BTW, does anyone know where I can buy the replacement capacitors online? I went to my local radio shack and they don't carry them.

What I need are :
2.2uF 63v electrolytic
47uF 16v tantalum

The board is already wrecked, nothing to lose. De-soldering is explained in the thread.

When you say 'chip' you're probably talking of the whole controller board? Because the chip (= controller) itself should be OK.

You can use tantalums or electrolytics for both caps.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Sat, 08 August 2009, 22:16:13

Quote from: ripster;108337

If you are in the US Mouser and Datacal have a huge assortment of caps - almost too many choices.  For this application, I'd just get electrolytics from Parts Express (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=020-1002).  16v electrolytics are fine for this.

Awesome! Hey Ripster, is the hot nerdy avatar in your profile currently seeing anyone?

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: huha on Sun, 09 August 2009, 09:09:18

The M2 repair thread doesn't say this explicitly, but you have to push the capacitors to the side. when desoldering.
Depending on your soldering iron, it takes considerable amounts of time until they come loose; apply slight pressure to the capacitor and then warm up the pads--it should come loose after a few minutes or so.
There's not much to do wrong here, except when you're too hasty and don't warm it up properly (as I did), because it really takes ages.


-huha

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: lowpoly on Sun, 09 August 2009, 10:25:25

Quote from: huha;108377

The M2 repair thread doesn't say this explicitly, but you have to push the capacitors to the side.

It does. :smile:

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Sun, 09 August 2009, 21:06:19

Quote from: huha;108377

The M2 repair thread doesn't say this explicitly, but you have to push the capacitors to the side. when desoldering.

It looks like they did the de-soldering without taking the board out. ( I thought I read that they didn't but when I went back over it I couldn't find that they did. ) It's easy to take the board out; would that make it easier to desolder? To heat it from underneath and pull the old capacitors straight out?

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: keyb_gr on Mon, 10 August 2009, 02:43:32

These are surface mount caps, no through-hole. Pads are on the component side only. Therefore it's not necessary to remove the control PCB.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Mon, 10 August 2009, 15:41:13

Quote from: ripster;108346

Uh oh, another Geekhacker hitting on GeekGirl. Must be the glasses.

Show Image

(http://www.allouttabubblegum.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/superman-10.jpg)

Hellz YEAH it's the glasses! Good LORD, who is that girl..?

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Tue, 11 August 2009, 18:14:17

Quote from: Shawn Stanford;108729

Hellz YEAH it's the glasses! Good LORD, who is that girl..?

I just pieced it together... It's Script-girl!

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Tue, 11 August 2009, 20:20:07

Quote from: ripster;108998

Boy, I'm gonna have to be more careful with you guys, I thought that pic link was untraceable.  Yeah, ScriptGirl is kind of a poser.

It wasn't an easy trace; I had to search the blog and read the review (great blog, BTW). But, yeah, I figgered it out as well: Scriptgirl.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Tue, 11 August 2009, 20:43:18

Quote from: ripster;108998

Boy, I'm gonna have to be more careful with you guys, I thought that pic link was untraceable.  Yeah, ScriptGirl is kind of a poser.

You know what? I'm gonna let her slide on this one...

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 12 August 2009, 08:32:17

Quote from: hazel-ra;109015

You know what? I'm gonna let her slide on this one...

No.  I'm going to let her slide on this one.  Several times, even.
 
Sorry.  Couldn't resist.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Wed, 12 August 2009, 18:35:21

Quote from: itlnstln;109107

No.  I'm going to let her slide on this one.  Several times, even.
 
Sorry.  Couldn't resist.

Dude, I can't resist!

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: o2dazone on Thu, 13 August 2009, 08:55:37

Quote from: itlnstln;109107

No.  I'm going to let her slide on this one.  Several times, even.
 
Sorry.  Couldn't resist.

aw jeez
itlnstln knows no bounds

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: huha on Thu, 13 August 2009, 09:03:26

An M2 clone?
I'd rather call it a cloning effort gone horribly wrong, but there's always the Mechanical Touch (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4721) keyboard.

-huha

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Thu, 13 August 2009, 09:26:51

Quote from: itlnstln;109107

No.  I'm going to let her slide on this one.  Several times, even. Sorry.  Couldn't resist.

Awesome..!

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 13 August 2009, 12:04:38

Long days at work... it gets a man to thinkin'.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Thu, 13 August 2009, 16:53:40

So BTW, what is the technique for de-soldering a stand-on electronic component? The capacitors completely obscure the solder. Do I hold the iron near the capaitors, to warm them up, or do I touch the iron to the capacitor itself?

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 14 August 2009, 08:09:33

There's a description in the first post how I do it.

If you have zero experience with soldering you might want to practice on something else first.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: keyb_gr on Fri, 14 August 2009, 09:46:56

Quote from: lowpoly;109699

If you have zero experience with soldering you might want to practice on something else first.

Understatement (n).

Some decent soldering equipment suited for surface mount stuff (usually a soldering iron / station with a fine tip), good sight and/or some loupe / microscope and a steady hand are recommended.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: huha on Fri, 14 August 2009, 10:04:05

The M2 is fairly simple to operate, since you'll only desolder these two SMD capacitors. I used an incredibly cheap soldering iron and it'll work pretty well if you're patient enough. Patience is extremely important.

Press your iron's tip against the pad where the cap is connected, wait and repeat the process with the other pad. If both pads have been heated, gently apply pressure to the cap pushing it to the side (i.e. perpendicular to the pads; if you push it in the direction of a pad, you'll inevitably tear a trace or two, which is extremely hard to repair). Don't overdo it and steadily supply heat to the pads by pushing your iron's tip against them. Small amounts of solder can help with the heat distribution.

-huha

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Fri, 14 August 2009, 16:34:40

Thanks everybody! Is there a common source for surface mount stuff that I can practice on? Some common thing that I might find at the thrift store, say, that will certainly have surface mount parts on it?

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 14 August 2009, 16:46:13

Quote from: hazel-ra;109571

The capacitors completely obscure the solder.

Unless you have a different controller, some solder can be seen north and south of the caps:

(http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/133/modelm2controllerbeforele9.jpg)

Also note the '+' symbol, that's where the plus pin of the new cap goes.

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Sat, 15 August 2009, 09:54:25

What about a clothes-iron surface mount desoldering?

http://hackedgadgets.com/2006/06/20/clothes-iron-surface-mount-desoldering/

This guy was pretty careless -- looks like he just wanted to remove chip -- but if I were more careful, would it workd?

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Sat, 15 August 2009, 13:06:29

Quote from: ripster;109860

It's only two chips - nothing fancy needed.  Cut or crush the caps off first and it's simple. (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=97)

OK, this sounds really interesting, but people talk about damaging the traces if desoldering. If I'm crushing the capacitors off, that sounds like it could easily damage the traces.

BTW what are traces?

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: hazel-ra on Sun, 06 September 2009, 16:11:15

Well, I finally took the plunge and re-soldered new capacitors -- or at least tried to.

What's interesting is that when I took the PCB to the local electronics store, the guy thought that someone had already replaced the capacitors -- the solders "didn't look factory". I believe I got this keyboard from the local FreeGeek, so this information is going around.

Anywho, I made a mess of the small one -- I kept the iron on there so long that it began to melt through the plastic of the SMT. At that point I got it off with a straight razor and did the big one too.

After trying to clean up the pads, I tried to solder them. It's a ****ty job, and I think a big part of the problem is the cheap 20w soldering iron I bought. But, I think I got them on enough to plug in the chip-- and! ...sigh. The same two LED light up on PS/2 connection, even when the computer is turned off.

I do have another keyboard and a two more of each capacitor, so I might try to get some expert help on this next one. Also, I noticed another part, which might be a capacitor, on the chip, so if I can figure out what it is, I might try to replace that too.

Other than that, thinking of starting a petition for unicomp to make m2 clones... mmm, m2 clones

Title: An M2 clone? With buckling springs?
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 06 September 2009, 22:05:05

Quote from: ripster;108998

Yeah, ScriptGirl is kind of a poser.

After finding the review of Superman: the Movie on the site the picture came from, I thought I'd search further, and I found this:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=86765&id=12509753507

where the picture originally came from.