geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Merranza on Wed, 14 January 2015, 07:37:20
-
First of all, hi to everybody :)
Been lurking for some time and many hours of reading through threads around here helped me decide which mechanical keyboard I should opt for.
About a week ago, I bought a Corsair K70 RGB with brown switches. I really like the keyboard so far (like you probably know, software is buggy but in terms of hardware, I really enjoy my purchase).
I've been hesitating a lot between reds and browns (gaming, music composing and work from home from time to time). Being perfectionist, I want to make sure I made the right choice as I am still in my refund/exchange period until tomorrow.
I've tried my keyboard for many hours to get the feel of it. Now, people are stating browns tactile feedback is very useful to actually know you've actuated a key. Many times while typing on my keyboard, I've realized when I released right when I hit the bump, my key wouldn't register. After looking up at the force diagram of browns, I now understand that the actuation point is after the bump when you downstroke.
That's where I need your expertise to understand the purpose of this. Are browns designed that way because your finger won't stop instantly and will hit the actuation point right after under normal usage (normal typing scenario and not slowly pressing one key)? Is this a way to *prepare your brain* to stop your finger which will hit the actuation point after the bump? It's just that to me, the opposite would have been much better by placing the actuation point right before the bump so when you hit the bump, you are 100% sure you did in fact register a key. That way, the bump would act like a bottom out point before the real bottom out point of the board (a softer bottom that would pardon since you would still have around 1.5 mm before actually really hitting the board).
I've seen many polls/threads online ranking browns as more popular than reds/blacks. I'm trying to understand the advantage of a brown switch over a red or a black since anyway, you need to go beyond the bump to actuate the key leaving you in that *linear portion* of the brown switch.
English is not my primary language so I beg your pardon in advance if my question is not clear enough. If it's the case, let me know and I'll try to rephrase it :)
edit: forgot to add that sometimes when using my browns, I hit the bump and see that my key hasn't registered. When I type fast, I really tend to type more lightly hence why I'm hesitating with the reds.
-
Welcome to Geekhack!
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=64990.0
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67341.0
^ a couple recent threads on the subject
-
Thank you!
-
To answer your question, it's literally impossible to have the actuation point perfectly INSIDE the bump you feel when pressing down on a switch, so the easiest way possible is to have it JUST after the bump. This also ensure easier QA and more consistent feel, since you never WANT to intentionally press a key 1/4th of the way down--that's not normal motion and can tire you out. If you're trying to avoid bottoming out, or having a sound from bottoming out, that's what O-Rings are for :)
Even Logitech G910 Orion Spark, with new Omron mechanical switches have the activation point of the switch PAST the tactile bump (I have one).
You would never want it before the bump...otherwise you would get accidental keypresses from resting your fingers on the key button (might as well use Reds, then...)
One reason blues are hated by many gamers (loved by typists but HATED by people who have to double tap for skills in games) is because the activation and release points are at different locations. So you can see what would happen if brown activation was before the bump...
Mice are the same way. The activation of the switch is always PAST the click point, but extremely close to it (closer since the mouse mechanical switch is significantly smaller).
-
I'll check when I get home, but I'd be somewhat surprised if you can consistently release the key right as the bump was felt and still not activate the switch. That seems to be a pretty thin margin, and if so you have some fantastic reflexes.
Unless it's not a thin margin and I just have terrible response to the tactile bump.
-
I'll check when I get home, but I'd be somewhat surprised if you can consistently release the key right as the bump was felt and still not activate the switch. That seems to be a pretty thin margin, and if so you have some fantastic reflexes.
Unless it's not a thin margin and I just have terrible response to the tactile bump.
Oh heck no! I'm not claiming I have ultra high precise reflexes :) It's not happening on a consistent basis but from time to time.
-
To answer your question, it's literally impossible to have the actuation point perfectly INSIDE the bump you feel when pressing down on a switch, so the easiest way possible is to have it JUST after the bump. This also ensure easier QA and more consistent feel, since you never WANT to intentionally press a key 1/4th of the way down--that's not normal motion and can tire you out. If you're trying to avoid bottoming out, or having a sound from bottoming out, that's what O-Rings are for :)
Even Logitech G910 Orion Spark, with new Omron mechanical switches have the activation point of the switch PAST the tactile bump (I have one).
You would never want it before the bump...otherwise you would get accidental keypresses from resting your fingers on the key button (might as well use Reds, then...)
One reason blues are hated by many gamers (loved by typists but HATED by people who have to double tap for skills in games) is because the activation and release points are at different locations. So you can see what would happen if brown activation was before the bump...
Mice are the same way. The activation of the switch is always PAST the click point, but extremely close to it (closer since the mouse mechanical switch is significantly smaller).
Thank you very much for your post, it's pretty informative. I'm reading through jdcarpe's thread suggestions too and I can see there's no clear consensus on browns (like I've read elsewhere too).
I'm thorn, but seeing how people claim their broken in browns are, I'm probably better off staying with them instead of exchanging them for reds. The best would have been to buy reds and browns but they are so hard to find where I live that this wasn't an option :S
-
I'll check when I get home, but I'd be somewhat surprised if you can consistently release the key right as the bump was felt and still not activate the switch. That seems to be a pretty thin margin, and if so you have some fantastic reflexes.
Unless it's not a thin margin and I just have terrible response to the tactile bump.
Oh heck no! I'm not claiming I have ultra high precise reflexes :) It's not happening on a consistent basis but from time to time.
Hmm, it's either some bad luck with your release or you might have some MX browns that aren't precise enough. I don't think I've ever missed a keystroke on my MX brown keyboard (I also rarely bottom out, so I'm somewhere in between the bump and bottoming out), so I can't say I've encountered what you have. If it's your typing style, maybe you'd be more suited for a lighter spring or something.
-
The only way to get switches to actuate at the start of the bump is to have a linear stem press against the leaf and then have a bump after that. I don't know if people would actually like that feeling though since the actual bump won't synchronize with the actuation.
-
I feel that the jailhouse mod makes switches more responsive to actuating when there is a bump.
-
Finally went back to the store and got an MX reds. The more I was using my browns, the more I was thinking about reds. The tactile bump in browns didn't really feel like a bump but more like useless friction all the way down. Browns really felt like an average middle on all accounts, be it for typing or gaming. I type very lightly and the more I speed up, the lighter my touch becomes so these reds are simply amazing to me. When I'll check into a keyboard to type, I'll look at other switches (MX blue or something else). To each their own :)
My WPM has already gone up by 10 on average compared to my browns and I'm not totally used to my new switches yet.
I love it :)
Thank you for all your advices.
-
[..]The tactile bump in browns didn't really feel like a bump but more like useless friction all the way down.
There's your problem. ;)
-
[..]The tactile bump in browns didn't really feel like a bump but more like useless friction all the way down.
There's your problem. ;)
Implying I was bottoming out right? :)
-
If you're not bottoming out at all, you're not typing your fastest..
-
i don't get why cherry wastes their time making such ****ty switches.
same goes for blacks and reds
-
I believe that bottoming out is expected. The point is not bottoming out hard so your fingers don't get fatigued, like taking a stroll versus stomping the ground. I also typed faster on mx reds over browns because of the lack of that tactile bump, although I don't mind it so much.
-
To answer your question, it's literally impossible to have the actuation point perfectly INSIDE the bump you feel when pressing down on a switch, so the easiest way possible is to have it JUST after the bump.
What do you mean by “inside the bump”, and what do you mean by “literally impossible”? It’s entirely possible to have the actuation point coincide with the portion of the stroke where force is dropping after its peak (the “tactile” point/range). If you have full control over the switch design, the switch’s tactile response and its actuation point can be controlled mostly independently.
Some switches (most notably clicky NEC and Omron B3G-S switches, but also to some extent clicky Hi-Tek “space invaders”) have the actuation point at the wrong place, slightly before the tactile point.
-
one funny thing about the post-bump activation i make use of is allowing the switch to stop just before the bump on upstrokes, inside the smalll gap between the bump and activation point. the (in my opinion overly large) ratio of the tactile resistance to spring force makes it easy to keep in place, allowing "low force" consecutive activations of keys like cursor keys.
really it's just a bizarre by-product and would trade it any day for a smoother low-force tactile mechanism (anyone got a guide for consistently modding brown stems like this guy did? http://mykeyboard.co.uk/surgery/)