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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: rdjack21 on Tue, 11 August 2009, 00:48:36

Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 11 August 2009, 00:48:36: I'm just wondering if anyone as tried one of these. As you can see below the layout is considerably different than US version.

Japanese:
(http://www.geekstuff4u.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/H/a/Happy_Hacking_Pro_WH_1.jpg)

US:
(http://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/pdkb400w_full.jpg)

Some Notes:
1) They are the same size
2) The Japanese version has two Fn keys so you don't have to give up a meta key to have Fn on both sides of the board.
3) 4 extra keys that can be used layer activation keys for key short cuts.
4) Cursor/Arrow keys
5) bad location for right shift maybe remap up arrow to shift and shift to up arrow.
6) Most all of the number row would have to be remapped to US standard that I'm used to. Along with some other keys as well.
7) I think the biggest issue for me will be where the BS/Delete key is located. I've finally gotten myself trained for the location on the US version but I think I can deal with it.

I guess the real question I have though is can I use those extra keys on the space row for layer keys in Linux. Because Linux supports I believe 4 layers per key if you turn it on. Layer one Normal key press, Layer 2 shift -> key, Layer 3 (you have to define) -> key, Layer 4 shift->Layer 3 key-> key but I think I have read somewhere that you can remove the shift part on layer 4 if you have the keys.
Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: vicz on Tue, 11 August 2009, 15:15:19: I tried it in a store when I was in Japan two years ago. The two show-stoppers for me were (in that order) the narrow space bar and the right shift key.

I worked in Japan for three years and had to use a Japanese keyboard at work. I never could get used to the narrow space bar and was always hitting the "henkan" and "muhenkan" keys around it. I generally can get used to non-alphabetic keys moving around (the tilde and backslash keys being the most notorious of them), but for some reason the wide space bar is written in my genes.

As for the right shift key, my pinky was always hitting the uparrow when I tried to type an exclamation mark. I suppose exchanging right shift and uparrow would be marginally better, but still not ideal.

Other problems, such as the parentheses being over the wrong keys, are easily solved by modifying the keyboard map, but neither xkb nor xmodmap can widen the space bar (and remapping the keys around them to space doesn't work either, the tactile feedback is all wrong -- I've tried it).

I don't see why you couldn't use the extra keys as modifiers under Linux.
Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: ch_123 on Tue, 11 August 2009, 16:25:48: The Japanese don't use a lot of spaces in their writing, and thus it isn't as important a key for them as it is for speakers of European languages.

I wonder what the Happy Hacking logo key does...
Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: cmr on Tue, 11 August 2009, 17:11:32: if what you're after is "more keys" then i submit humbly that the HHKB is the wrong road to take
Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: Rajagra on Tue, 11 August 2009, 18:31:49: Quote from: cmr;108959
if what you're after is "more keys" then i submit humbly that the HHKB is the wrong road to take

On the other hand, if you want more keys within reach of the home position, a Japanese layout is tempting, HHKB or not.

I have a feeling that space button (let's not call it a bar!) is just barely big enough for where my thumb hits. I think I'll pick up a cheap Japanese board to play with.

I would buy a HHKB Pro in a heartbeat if it had the complete functionality of a full-sized keyboard. There are enough keys to do this.
Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: D-EJ915 on Tue, 11 August 2009, 20:35:14: I've never had any issues using Japanese boards but then again I use my left hand exclusively for space and shift, the only thing that does bug me a little bit is the small backspace :P however when I use it I never really have any issues.
Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Tue, 11 August 2009, 20:51:43: I was thinking of getting the Japanese one too but then I realized I would like the keyboard more if it had a longer spacebar, so I just got the pro =D
Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 11 August 2009, 21:24:35: Quote from: Rajagra;108975
On the other hand, if you want more keys within reach of the home position, a Japanese layout is tempting, HHKB or not.

I have a feeling that space button (let's not call it a bar!) is just barely big enough for where my thumb hits. I think I'll pick up a cheap Japanese board to play with.

I would buy a HHKB Pro in a heartbeat if it had the complete functionality of a full-sized keyboard. There are enough keys to do this.

Yes this is what I'm after. I want those other keys for modifiers/layer selectors so that I can map all the keys I use.

On the US version of the HHKB really the only keys you have available for doing this are the Left and Right meta keys. But if I want a Fn key on both sides of the board then I have to give one of those up as well. So essentially you only have one meta key to work with.

But what about L+R Control/Alt I use the dog out of those already and really do not want to give them up.

But like other people pointed out I am worried about the size of both the space bar and the enter key. Like Rajagra maybe I should just try to find a cheap Japanence board to play with first. I also need to think about other things I could do to make the US HHKB workable mostly give up on having two Fn keys then I would have both meta keys to work with.

Also big thanks for all the imput it helps when I'm thinking about these things.
Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 11 August 2009, 21:33:01: Quote from: D-EJ915;109013
I've never had any issues using Japanese boards but then again I use my left hand exclusively for space and shift, the only thing that does bug me a little bit is the small backspace :P however when I use it I never really have any issues.

mine:

Show Image
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/enthauptet/bin/C1b.jpg)

Glad to hear that you don't have issues with the layout. I've been thinking about how I currently use the space bar and I find that I use both of my thumbs on it but mostly the right thumb. And both of my thumbs rest or naturally hit the space bar at the gap on either side of the B key. So it may work for me as well. But I may have issues with the enter key I've noticed that I hit it on the left side of the key not the middle so I would have to learn to stretch over a little to hit it on the Japanese layout. That should be doable.
Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: rdjack21 on Tue, 11 August 2009, 21:48:18: Quote from: cmr;108959
if what you're after is "more keys" then i submit humbly that the HHKB is the wrong road to take

It is not so much that I want more keys but that I want more modifier keys for all kinds of things. True you can do allot with what the HHKB Pro has but I'm really wanting to try to more stuff onto single modifier keys as those are much easer to hit and remember. All you have to do is go look at the contortions that you have to go through on Emacs for most things to understand what I want to remove. With a couple more modifiers you could make things so much easer. In stead of hitting 3-4 keys to do an action you could hit Modifier -> key and be done with it. Oh well I'm rambling now so I will stop...
Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 24 August 2009, 16:26:27: Quote from: Rajagra;108975
if you want more keys within reach of the home position, a Japanese layout is tempting, HHKB or not.
...
I think I'll pick up a cheap Japanese board to play with.

I've given up trying to find a Japanese board, I may have to turn to those nice Koreans for help:

Imagine the 2 keys beside the space bar as Fn keys.

And I can get one from Korea (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130322578968) with free shipping. The total is 25% less than shipping alone from the U.S.
Crazy world.
Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 19:37:26: Quote from: Rajagra;111631
I've given up trying to find a Japanese board, I may have to turn to those nice Koreans for help:

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4019)

Imagine the 2 keys beside the space bar as Fn keys.

And I can get one from Korea (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130322578968) with free shipping. The total is 25% less than shipping alone from the U.S.
Crazy world.

I've got three of them in the process of being shipped from Japan. One should ship this week. The other two may be another week or more before they ship. What kind of Japanese board are you looking for? HHKB Pro or something else. The HHKB Pro Japanese layout is going for 22k-24k yen new but I've seen some on Yahoo Japan for less used.

EDIT: Forgot to add what are you using for generating the above layout. If I did not know better that looks like it came from xkeycaps but that would include the scan codes.
Title: HHKB Pro Japanese Layout
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 24 August 2009, 20:01:36: Quote from: rdjack21;111667
What kind of Japanese board are you looking for? HHKB Pro or something else. The HHKB Pro Japanese layout is going for 22k-24k yen new but I've seen some on Yahoo Japan for less used.

EDIT: Forgot to add what are you using for generating the above layout. If I did not know better that looks like it came from xkeycaps but that would include the scan codes.

I just want some extra keys on the space bar row to use as modifiers with AutoHotkey. The Japanese layout has a few too many keys. Korean or Brazilian boards should be a better compromise.

The image is from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout).

Ultimately I want a quality board with such keys. So I might consider the Japanese HHKB. But it does seem to have lost some of the elegant simplicity of the normal version that actually defines its character. Maybe if I knew what all those keys do (like the one with the HH logo)?