this might be asking for too much but i would prefer a version where the numpad is located on the leftside of the keyboard instead.
this might be asking for too much but i would prefer a version where the numpad is located on the leftside of the keyboard instead.
this might be asking for too much but i would prefer a version where the numpad is located on the leftside of the keyboard instead.
Reminds me a bit of TheFlyingRaccoon's LongCat Project (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43788.0).
Good luck with your build! Find your plate drawing attached. :)
Reminds me a bit of TheFlyingRaccoon's LongCat Project (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43788.0).
Good luck with your build! Find your plate drawing attached. :)
I am speechless. Thanks so much!
Reminds me a bit of TheFlyingRaccoon's LongCat Project (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43788.0).
Good luck with your build! Find your plate drawing attached. :)
I am speechless. Thanks so much!
You're welcome! :D
If you need something changed, just PM me.
Oh, and here's one with the numpad on the left...
Interesting layout , have you considered replacing the delete key with Fn and putting the Delete on the Fn layer of the Backspace ?
It looks like there's a rising trend in split space bar designs lately. I love it. This is one of the best layouts I've seen yet.
Things I like:
re-purposed the traditional backspace key to the num pad key
delete key in a more accessible location (may require an adjustment period to retrain fingers to avoid hitting delete when trying to hit space or backspace)
TKL form factor that retains the num pad!
of course, backspace key for left thumb (suck it, full-length space bar!)
Minor complaint that is not specific to your design: Standard-sized shift keys seem like such a waste of real estate. I know why the size of the right shift key is optimal for standard 80% and up layouts but it still bothers me. It seems like the left shift could be safely split into 2 keys, with the left-most key becoming scroll lock [with your design (there's no need for a second scroll lock on keyboards that already have one)] or some other modifier.
I am eager to see this keyboard get made. The more I look at it, the more I like it.
Anyone interested in a Dihedral 79 plate? Even if just a few people go for it it could push price down a fair bit.
Anyone interested in a Dihedral 79 plate? Even if just a few people go for it it could push price down a fair bit.
Are you planning on making a PCB for it? Or is this going to be strictly hand wired?
Anyone interested in a Dihedral 79 plate? Even if just a few people go for it it could push price down a fair bit.
Are you planning on making a PCB for it? Or is this going to be strictly hand wired?
i'm going to handwire, though if someone wanted to design a pcb i would be totally happy with that.
Anyone interested in a Dihedral 79 plate? Even if just a few people go for it it could push price down a fair bit.
Are you planning on making a PCB for it? Or is this going to be strictly hand wired?
i'm going to handwire, though if someone wanted to design a pcb i would be totally happy with that.
The only reason I ask it that, I would definitely be interested, if only it supported some other layout options in the same form factor. I don't know that I could live with that spacebar arrangement, for instance, or I might like to have a 2-unit backspace, or a 1.75-unit right shift, etc. I could design you a plate that would cover those options, but the stabilizer holes wouldn't support plate mounting anymore, hence the necessity of a PCB.
Anyone interested in a Dihedral 79 plate? Even if just a few people go for it it could push price down a fair bit.
Are you planning on making a PCB for it? Or is this going to be strictly hand wired?
i'm going to handwire, though if someone wanted to design a pcb i would be totally happy with that.
The only reason I ask it that, I would definitely be interested, if only it supported some other layout options in the same form factor. I don't know that I could live with that spacebar arrangement, for instance, or I might like to have a 2-unit backspace, or a 1.75-unit right shift, etc. I could design you a plate that would cover those options, but the stabilizer holes wouldn't support plate mounting anymore, hence the necessity of a PCB.
If you want to build an alternate design i would be happy to add it into the OP. However, the point of my original post wasnt to start a massive group buy, just to see if it would be worthwhile getting five or ten plates instead of just one. This is still, in my mind, a small project so I can build my endgame board.
Anyone interested in a Dihedral 79 plate? Even if just a few people go for it it could push price down a fair bit.
Are you planning on making a PCB for it? Or is this going to be strictly hand wired?
i'm going to handwire, though if someone wanted to design a pcb i would be totally happy with that.
The only reason I ask it that, I would definitely be interested, if only it supported some other layout options in the same form factor. I don't know that I could live with that spacebar arrangement, for instance, or I might like to have a 2-unit backspace, or a 1.75-unit right shift, etc. I could design you a plate that would cover those options, but the stabilizer holes wouldn't support plate mounting anymore, hence the necessity of a PCB.
If you want to build an alternate design i would be happy to add it into the OP. However, the point of my original post wasnt to start a massive group buy, just to see if it would be worthwhile getting five or ten plates instead of just one. This is still, in my mind, a small project so I can build my endgame board.
Yep, understood. It's a good project!
Just wondering, but is the split space bar setup possible on the Phantom? Or did it not have those switch locations? I know the numpad area can be done on the phantom, aka "7bit" layout.
thanks for the support. sorry if my post came off as rude, im kind of tired and finding it hard to string words together :)
Just wondering, but is the split space bar setup possible on the Phantom? Or did it not have those switch locations? I know the numpad area can be done on the phantom, aka "7bit" layout.
Sorry for the OT, Dihedral, but I just want to quickly answer Melvang's question. The Phantom could not support the same bottom row as OP's design, because the switch locations for those keys are not present on the PCB. the closest thing with a split spacebar I could come up with for the Phantom is this: 1.25-1.25-1.25-2.00-1.00-1.50-1.00-2.00-1.25-1.25-1.25. That would require a custom plate to be made. :)thanks for the support. sorry if my post came off as rude, im kind of tired and finding it hard to string words together :)
Didn't sound rude to me. :D
One other subtle difference is the lack of a 2u backspace, which phantom presumably does not support.
One other subtle difference is the lack of a 2u backspace, which phantom presumably does not support.
The Phantom actually does support either a 2u key or 1u-1u keys in the backspace position. Again, plate dependent. :)
I see that the layout has two 2.5u keys in the bottom row for the Backspace and Space. That size of keycaps could be difficult to source.
Let me suggest 2.25 for Backspace and 2.75 for Space so that you can use the same keycap as left and right Shift. That would also put Delete a tiny bit closer to the left thumb.
This is pretty neat.
For me, the problems I would maybe have; sometimes I hit backspace rapidly and my left thumb isn't as good for that as my right. Also, where the keypad enter is, mis-keying it when using the cursors would be more catastrophic than a key that doesn't say, submit a form or send an email.
This is a pretty awesome layout. I can totally imagine myself using this. Just one question.
What is the function of the Num Lock key? I was under the impression the Nav Keys are under a function layer. Is it a Nav cluster until num lock is on? At which point the nav cluster is now under a function layer?
This is a pretty awesome layout. I can totally imagine myself using this. Just one question.
What is the function of the Num Lock key? I was under the impression the Nav Keys are under a function layer. Is it a Nav cluster until num lock is on? At which point the nav cluster is now under a function layer?
Where would I be able to source 2.5 sized keys for Backspace and Spacebar?
Where would I be able to source 2.5 sized keys for Backspace and Spacebar?
Where would I be able to source 2.5 sized keys for Backspace and Spacebar?
2.5 unit is available from SP in SA and DCS profiles only and only in Row 4 but not space bar profile.
The shortest keys available in space bar profile is 4 unit in DSA and 4.5 unit in DCS.
http://www.keycapsdirect.com/pdfs/SAFamily.pdf
http://www.keycapsdirect.com/pdfs/DCSFamily.pdf
Again, SP does not have a mold for 2.5 unit in DSA. The cheapest price I think I have heard for a new mold for SP is 3,000USD.
http://www.keycapsdirect.com/pdfs/DSAFamily.pdf
derp, mispost.
This a really interesting project. I'm afraid I have nothing to offer but my wallet. I would really need some kind of case for it though.
It's been a while since I was last here and poked at some projects, but this should work, and you can use this as a starting place. I did change your 2.5 keys into 2.75 and adjusted the 1.25 down to 1.0 in order to make it easier. I didn't even know there were 2.5 keys. I know that's not what you wanted, but I've attached all the relevant files so you can make adjustments. :D
(Attachment Link)
This should demonstrate how it could be built with the matrix provided. It's not the cleanest, the matrix is not exactly clean, since I jammed things in where there wasn't space... I was working from another project I was dabbling with a long time ago, and I just adjusted it really quick to be closer to your layout. There is an LED under CAPS and the center key/spacebar to use as... an indicator? Technically there is still one pin free on the atmega.
(Attachment Link)
This is great! Thank you! I poked into pcb design but was overwhelmed. What software should I use to adjust the design?
This is great! Thank you! I poked into pcb design but was overwhelmed. What software should I use to adjust the design?
This was all done in KiCad - Build 2013-02-13 BZR 3947.
I fixed all the diode footprints in this version :
This is great! Thank you! I poked into pcb design but was overwhelmed. What software should I use to adjust the design?
This was all done in KiCad - Build 2013-02-13 BZR 3947.
I fixed all the diode footprints in this version :
I totally forgot about this thread, i'm glad to see this moving on, i saw a similar layout a while ago but this one looks the most compelling. i usually favor the standard spacebar, but after thinking about it i can see why some people would enjoy this, and i think i'd like to give it a whirl at some point. Either way, thanks for working on this, projects like this are always very interesting.
Well, I know nobody asked for this... but...
(Attachment Link)
... I thought I would try re-doing it for Cherry MX + Alps
(it's an addiction)
Did one of these actually get put together? I'd like to see it.
This design is pretty cool. One thing though. If you remove one modifier off Row 4, namely the right winkey, you get a symmetrical layout, so you can move the numpad/arrows to the left by simply flipping the plate over.
This design is pretty cool. One thing though. If you remove one modifier off Row 4, namely the right winkey, you get a symmetrical layout, so you can move the numpad/arrows to the left by simply flipping the plate over.Enter != Caps Lock. It's not symmetrical.
Right, I overlooked that.This design is pretty cool. One thing though. If you remove one modifier off Row 4, namely the right winkey, you get a symmetrical layout, so you can move the numpad/arrows to the left by simply flipping the plate over.Enter != Caps Lock. It's not symmetrical.
As you know I like this design but I've always felt something is off and have just worked out what that is - it's missing a column for + - * / and . The only reasons I use a number pad are calculations or writing dates so I need these symbols, for a single number it's quicker to hit the top row.
I guess these are among the "keys you don't need" so I don't expect them to be added, but I'm not interested if they're not there. Maybe you can you get plates cut with a detachable column? Though then you fragment any case buys...
Thoughts?
You're right, that doesn't look good and the symbol keys aren't be on the right rows so keycaps will be an issue, and enter is too low... No go.
Just trying to get my head round the firmware side of things for the shift option. Your num lock isn't really, it's a layer switch - no problem. With the number layer active to access the symbols using shift it would have to become another layer switch, but to type with the numpad enabled and select test using the arrows it will still need to be a shift key. I requested "implied shift" mode which has been added to easy AVR (thanks Metalliqaz!) so this is also no problem. This just leaves selecting text using "Home" and "End" broken, but they could be swapped for "Del" and "PrntSc" on the shifted number layer...
Am I missing anything?
This is how it should function - not sure about how this would be implemented; I have no firmware experience.
if shift held down - do the function on shift and return. If there is none then continue
if num lock active - do the function on numlock and return. if there is none then continue
do basic function
This is how it should function - not sure about how this would be implemented; I have no firmware experience.
if shift held down - do the function on shift and return. If there is none then continue
if num lock active - do the function on numlock and return. if there is none then continue
do basic function
Fair enough, I'm not overly experienced myself :)
Programatically it works like this (for numpad 9):
If "num lock"
If "shift"
-
else
9
else
home
But in firmware terms "shift" isn't a real shift as neither shift and 9 or home are "-" so each option maps to a different layer, but luckily shift and numpad symbols are still symbols.
The added complication here is that you need an actual "num lock" key somewhere in case you use the board on a computer with it off by default, otherwise you'll have no numbers and the 9 key would send "PgUp" when the number layer is active.
This might just work!
I don't understand the difference between my numlock key and any other...?
I don't understand the difference between my numlock key and any other...?
Numlock is a special key which controls a toggle in the operating system rather than in the keyboard - if you plug in two keyboards and press numlock on one the other knows and it's LED lights up. With this official numlock switched off you get PgUp as found on most keycaps :)
I don't understand the difference between my numlock key and any other...?
Numlock is a special key which controls a toggle in the operating system rather than in the keyboard - if you plug in two keyboards and press numlock on one the other knows and it's LED lights up. With this official numlock switched off you get PgUp as found on most keycaps :)
So a 'real numlock' would just assume that my numpad was like a standard one?
I don't understand the difference between my numlock key and any other...?
Numlock is a special key which controls a toggle in the operating system rather than in the keyboard - if you plug in two keyboards and press numlock on one the other knows and it's LED lights up. With this official numlock switched off you get PgUp as found on most keycaps :)
So a 'real numlock' would just assume that my numpad was like a standard one?
Eh... I'm not sure I can explain this. I made layouts to show what I would do but it crashes on saving so you'll have to past the raw data below in.More[{a:5,w:3,w2:1},"\n\n\n\n\n\nyour num lock on",{x:0.5,w:3},"\n\n\n\n\n\nYour numlock plus shift",{x:0.5,w:3},"\n\n\n\n\n\nyour numlock off"],
[{y:0.5,a:4},"7\nHome","8\n↑","9\nPgUp",{x:0.5,a:5},"real\nlock\n\n\n\n\nnum","\n\n\n\n\n\n/","\n\n\n\n\n\n*",{x:0.5,a:6},"Ins","Menu","Home"],
[{a:4},"4\n←","5","6\n→",{x:0.5},"\n\n\n\n\n\nPgUp","",{a:5},"\n\n\n\n\n\n-",{x:0.5,a:6},"Delete","PgUp","End"],
[{a:4},"1\nEnd","2\n↓","3\nPgDn",{x:0.5},"\n\n\n\n\n\nPgDn","",{a:5},"\n\n\n\n\n\n+",{x:0.5,a:7},"PrntSc","PgDn","Pause"],
[{a:5},"0\nIns","\n\n\n\n\n\n↑",{a:4},".\nDel",{x:0.5},"\n\n\n\n\n\nHome",{a:5},"\n↑",{a:4},"\n\n\n\n\n\nEnd",{x:0.5},"",{a:5},"\n\n\n\n\n\n↑",{a:4},"\n\n\n\n\n\nEnter"],
[{a:5},"\n\n\n\n\n\n←","\n\n\n\n\n\n↓","\n\n\n\n\n\n→",{x:0.5},"\n\n\n\n\n\n←","\n\n\n\n\n\n↓","\n\n\n\n\n\n→",{x:0.5},"\n\n\n\n\n\n←","\n\n\n\n\n\n↓","\n\n\n\n\n\n→"]
If "real numlock" is off and your numlock is on you will get the bottom legends, only if both are on do you get the numbers. Ideally "real numlock" would always be on, but you can't make this happen.
I'm still thinking about it and haven't come up with anything that can't be done with the these three layers so I think I'm worrying you unnecessarily, as long as "implied shift" is an option in other firmwares or we can make this popular/standard enough that Metalliqaz adds it to EasyAVR.
I think we can safely theorise about the boards operation and cross the bridge of implementing it when the time comes. Would you be interested in this board if symbols could be accessed by the shift key as proposed?
I think we can safely theorise about the boards operation and cross the bridge of implementing it when the time comes. Would you be interested in this board if symbols could be accessed by the shift key as proposed?
I'm now satisfied that it can work so am definitely interested but it needs ISO support. This is going to be UK designed and made, it makes sense to cater for the locals :)
LibreCAD is installing as we speak to attempt to do this, but I have no clue how it works. How hard can it be...
I quite often use shift and PgUp/PgDn/Home/End to select text so messy as it looks I'll have them there somewhere, and I'd rather have the symbols in their normal places but that's personal preference and will be user selectable. You do raise a good point that shift could switch the numpad functions regardless of numlock - shift and delete/ print screen make no sense so may as well remap nav keys closer.I think we can safely theorise about the boards operation and cross the bridge of implementing it when the time comes. Would you be interested in this board if symbols could be accessed by the shift key as proposed?
I'm now satisfied that it can work so am definitely interested but it needs ISO support. This is going to be UK designed and made, it makes sense to cater for the locals :)
LibreCAD is installing as we speak to attempt to do this, but I have no clue how it works. How hard can it be...
I myself have defected to ANSI, but sure, if it's a UK board then it does make sense to do ISO.
I played around with that keyboard-layout-editor code you sent me and have changed it to a better (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2b9df9a9c024fcae76d8211edf8496b3) (IMO) layout which I think would work quite well. When I say numlock, I mean my numlock not real numlock. Thoughts?
I quite often use shift and PgUp/PgDn/Home/End to select text so messy as it looks I'll have them there somewhere, and I'd rather have the symbols in their normal places but that's personal preference and will be user selectable. You do raise a good point that shift could switch the numpad functions regardless of numlock - shift and delete/ print screen make no sense so may as well remap nav keys closer.I think we can safely theorise about the boards operation and cross the bridge of implementing it when the time comes. Would you be interested in this board if symbols could be accessed by the shift key as proposed?
I'm now satisfied that it can work so am definitely interested but it needs ISO support. This is going to be UK designed and made, it makes sense to cater for the locals :)
LibreCAD is installing as we speak to attempt to do this, but I have no clue how it works. How hard can it be...
I myself have defected to ANSI, but sure, if it's a UK board then it does make sense to do ISO.
I played around with that keyboard-layout-editor code you sent me and have changed it to a better (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2b9df9a9c024fcae76d8211edf8496b3) (IMO) layout which I think would work quite well. When I say numlock, I mean my numlock not real numlock. Thoughts?
You have got rid of "real numlock" though - you will need one somewhere!
Indeed it can, any key can do anything :)I quite often use shift and PgUp/PgDn/Home/End to select text so messy as it looks I'll have them there somewhere, and I'd rather have the symbols in their normal places but that's personal preference and will be user selectable. You do raise a good point that shift could switch the numpad functions regardless of numlock - shift and delete/ print screen make no sense so may as well remap nav keys closer.I think we can safely theorise about the boards operation and cross the bridge of implementing it when the time comes. Would you be interested in this board if symbols could be accessed by the shift key as proposed?
I'm now satisfied that it can work so am definitely interested but it needs ISO support. This is going to be UK designed and made, it makes sense to cater for the locals :)
LibreCAD is installing as we speak to attempt to do this, but I have no clue how it works. How hard can it be...
I myself have defected to ANSI, but sure, if it's a UK board then it does make sense to do ISO.
I played around with that keyboard-layout-editor code you sent me and have changed it to a better (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2b9df9a9c024fcae76d8211edf8496b3) (IMO) layout which I think would work quite well. When I say numlock, I mean my numlock not real numlock. Thoughts?
You have got rid of "real numlock" though - you will need one somewhere!
real numlock can go in one of the blank spaces in the shift layer... right? I don't see the issue with PgUp/PgDn/Home/End - they are effectively where they are on a normal board.
Indeed it can, any key can do anything :)I quite often use shift and PgUp/PgDn/Home/End to select text so messy as it looks I'll have them there somewhere, and I'd rather have the symbols in their normal places but that's personal preference and will be user selectable. You do raise a good point that shift could switch the numpad functions regardless of numlock - shift and delete/ print screen make no sense so may as well remap nav keys closer.I think we can safely theorise about the boards operation and cross the bridge of implementing it when the time comes. Would you be interested in this board if symbols could be accessed by the shift key as proposed?
I'm now satisfied that it can work so am definitely interested but it needs ISO support. This is going to be UK designed and made, it makes sense to cater for the locals :)
LibreCAD is installing as we speak to attempt to do this, but I have no clue how it works. How hard can it be...
I myself have defected to ANSI, but sure, if it's a UK board then it does make sense to do ISO.
I played around with that keyboard-layout-editor code you sent me and have changed it to a better (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2b9df9a9c024fcae76d8211edf8496b3) (IMO) layout which I think would work quite well. When I say numlock, I mean my numlock not real numlock. Thoughts?
You have got rid of "real numlock" though - you will need one somewhere!
real numlock can go in one of the blank spaces in the shift layer... right? I don't see the issue with PgUp/PgDn/Home/End - they are effectively where they are on a normal board.
The nav keys are fine but once you press shift you are changing home and PgUp to * and - so can't use shift + home/PgUp to select text, which I often do.
I just had a read through Swill's plate builder thread and seems there are big savings to be had by combining multiple plates into one file which uses most of a sheet. To me this means that rather than everyone agreeing on a layout everyone can come up with their own and go in on the same order - does it get any better than that?
Methinks it's time to contact some cutters for more info/quotes :)
Edit: Sent a couple of e-mails, not expecting a reply tonight...
You actually own a laser cutter, but haven't made a plate yet?! That's some impressive self control. I got one quote back, £25 for the original design with square holes or £27.25 for my slightly larger bordered ISO with notched holes (both based on a sheet full of 24 plates)
How much is a sheet of steel anyway? I didn't realise they were so big :))
You actually own a laser cutter, but haven't made a plate yet?! That's some impressive self control. I got one quote back, £25 for the original design with square holes or £27.25 for my slightly larger bordered ISO with notched holes (both based on a sheet full of 24 plates)
How much is a sheet of steel anyway? I didn't realise they were so big :))
I was bored and have switches lying around so I made a numberpad to simulate the one on the D-79 out of hot glue, which I shall be using alongside my JD40. Need to sort the firmware with layers but it works!MoreShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/Zj2qOqr.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/gTci0fG.jpg)
How much does your cutter want for a very small run of these? Seems the interest has dwindled considerably :(
What I want is a TKL + the right side of what you designed (the arrows/numpad combo). Either as a standalone, or attached to a TKL. :D
Moving the backspace to the left thumb I think deviates a little too much from a standard layout (for me!).
What I want is a TKL + the right side of what you designed (the arrows/numpad combo). Either as a standalone, or attached to a TKL. :D
Moving the backspace to the left thumb I think deviates a little too much from a standard layout (for me!).
So the same as the current design but with standard key placement in the main block and with F-keys?
What I want is a TKL + the right side of what you designed (the arrows/numpad combo). Either as a standalone, or attached to a TKL. :D
Moving the backspace to the left thumb I think deviates a little too much from a standard layout (for me!).
So the same as the current design but with standard key placement in the main block and with F-keys?
Wait, I just realized what I wrote was confusing, even to me. But yes, if I understood what you wrote. 60% on the left, and your arrow/numpad combo.
I would enjoy a plate, but I need a different model. Do you know where I can get plates for different models? Or get a quote somewhere?Dihedral 79Plate image:
- Have a quote for a plate, but would prefer to buy a few and sell some on. If you want a plate, please post in this thread.
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/CGV1wDs.png)
I would enjoy a plate, but I need a different model. Do you know where I can get plates for different models? Or get a quote somewhere?Dihedral 79Plate image:
- Have a quote for a plate, but would prefer to buy a few and sell some on. If you want a plate, please post in this thread.
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/CGV1wDs.png)
I would enjoy a plate, but I need a different model. Do you know where I can get plates for different models? Or get a quote somewhere?Dihedral 79Plate image:
- Have a quote for a plate, but would prefer to buy a few and sell some on. If you want a plate, please post in this thread.
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/CGV1wDs.png)
Thank you Sir, very appreciated. I will check those out...
Go to a service like BigBlueSaw in the US or LaserMaster in the UK. They can sort you out with something.[/list]
I'm playing spot the difference between your latest layer suggestions and the PCB suggested by regack (https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=67948.0;attach=92678;image) a couple of pages back. I have a cold so am not at my best, but I'm not seeing any physical changes - is it just what key does what that's changed?
The one sticking point for me at the moment is the 2.75 keys at the bottom as no cap sets include them and PMK only have blanks in DSA or DCS.
I'm playing spot the difference between your latest layer suggestions and the PCB suggested by regack (https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=67948.0;attach=92678;image) a couple of pages back. I have a cold so am not at my best, but I'm not seeing any physical changes - is it just what key does what that's changed?
The one sticking point for me at the moment is the 2.75 keys at the bottom as no cap sets include them and PMK only have blanks in DSA or DCS.
One last thing then before declaring this complete - the keycap profile. If it's not flat (really hope it isn't) does the bottom row of the D79 numberpad match the profile of the standard up arrow? Would be a shame if it didn't :)