Short history: About 2 years ago started to get serious underarm / tendon problems (left arm). Running to doctors, physio-therapists etc. etc. Got diagnosed with tendonosis (chronic tendonitis). Most of it due to wrong posture, cramped fingers using crazy shortcuts and... here it comes, using hunt-and-peck not being able to touch-type.
Aside of the medical aspect, this was the time when I started looking around for better desk and keyboard solutions. Starting with under the desk tray for keyboard, purchasing an Advantage Kinesis. This in turn forced me to learn to touch type. After a year and a half doing that, I am certainly not what you would call a turbo-typer. But all in all I can find my way on my precious Advantage keyboard.
Then I found Geekhack and read many interesting stories on ergonomics. And most of all, I think in 50% (maybe exaggerating a bit here..) of the posts/answers of jacobolus, I have seen him write, don't rest your hands/palms, have your hands hover, so the muscles in the upper arm can do some work as well. Now since my problems with my underarms are better, but far from gone I am really prone on working on that part of my typing.
Now with the Kinesis Advantage, I clearly taught myself wrong. It has such a "great" and inviting area to rest your palms on, you would think it was made to rest your palms on while typing. From the start I bought the palm pads and they are even indented from my palms resting on them while typing. Now trying to have my hands hover and my palms not resting. And I find it really really hard. I am attempting to hover, but then after 5-10 minutes catch myself resting my palms again.
Any one got any tips on how to improve on this and hover all the time? All help is welcome!
Your previous underarm problem is the result of your muscles Pulling your shoulders down and back close to your body..
Your previous underarm problem is the result of your muscles Pulling your shoulders down and back close to your body..
Can you elaborate a bit more on that, English 2nd language and not fully comprehending what you write here. Lowerarm is still a problem for me and would love to know more about this.
Attached a rendering and the area circled I experience the most pain / discomfort. Through ultrasound it has been diagnosed as tendonosis. Have had several physio-therapy treatments. From laser-therapy (at the acute stage where I couldn't even twist a doorknop without excruciating pain) to regular muscle / tendon treatments focussed on stretching and strengthening. However, the cause, working 8-10 hours a day in front of a computer is still there. (Senior Technical Support Analyst at a Web development company... long explanation for: Jack of all trades).
Appreciate the time and effort!!!Show Image(http://skreengrab.com/zhq3.jpg)
in both arms or just 1 arm
PRIOR to your new keyboard, before you first went to the doctor..
Was your forearm touching the table ontop of it while you typed ?
what was your original typing situation like.
is there wrist pain.
Tendinosis just means there’s chronic/long-term damage to the tendons, caused by a bunch of little tears in the tissue, and from what I understand it heals pretty slowly. I don’t think any of us here are physical therapists or orthopedic doctors, so you can probably get better general medical advice from professionals. My main advice would be: take breaks, don’t work too much, get enough sleep and exercise, eat properly, don’t get too stressed out, etc. As far as keyboard-specific advice goes, I think it sounds like you’re on the right track with the Kinesis Advantage.
I think the main things causing tendinitis and tendinosis while typing are wrists bent upward and excessive force mashing the keys down. But I haven’t seen any especially conclusive studies about this. (They might exist, if someone has some good references, I’d love to see them.)
I wish there were better research about the specific shocks felt by different tissues (bones/cartilage/ligaments/tendons/muscles) on different types of keyswitches and different keyboard shapes/positions, and with different typing styles. None of the papers I’ve seen are actually all that helpful, so take every bit of advice you get with a pinch of salt, and do what’s comfortable for you. This is more folk wisdom than hard science.
With that said, I find the most comfortable typing to be with my upper arms held loosely at my sides (not sticking out sideways or extended forward), my elbows at a 90–100° angle, my wrists as straight as they can get, and the keyboard angled to be parallel to my forearms (i.e. flat or slightly down-angled). On a fully split keyboard, the arms can be put in an even more neutral position by tenting the halves upward toward the center at a 20–40° angle, and turned by whatever amount keeps my wrists straight (the best amount varies between row-staggered vs. column-staggered keyboards). Occasional changes of position (e.g. switching between standing and sitting at my desk) are also helpful.
I’m hardly an expert on this either, but I find I best avoid fatigue when typing by trying to keep my finger motions springy and light. I want to make sure I put enough energy into the keystrokes to reliably actuate the switches, but not smash my fingers down any harder than necessary. There’s nothing wrong with “bottoming out” the switch, but mashing it down really hard into an abrupt stop ends up putting a lot of unnecessary shock into every press. (For me, bad rubber domes cause much faster fatigue than discrete mechanical switches, and I personally appreciate both tactile and audio feedback at actuation. YMMV.) I find it helpful to not rest my arms on any surface while typing, that way I can more easily move my hands slightly around the keyboard, to reduce the amount of reaching my fingers need to do (but without moving my hands so much that they’re way out of position for the next keystroke). Additionally, by having my forearms floating free, my whole forearm can pivot slightly at the elbow. The theory here goes that some of the shock of the keystrokes can then be absorbed in the large muscles in the upper arm which are responsible for flexing and extending the elbow. This is much less important/possible in typing on a standard keyboard than it is on chording stenography keyboards or when playing piano chords, but still helpful I find.
Assuming the upper arms are hanging straight down from the sides, I don’t think it’s impossibly much work for the biceps to hold the forearms up. The biceps are big muscles and should be able to hold the weight of the forearms for a substantial amount of time without getting too tired. In between bursts of typing, a palmrest can be helpful, or the arms can be rested in some other way, e.g. on the lap, the table surface, or chair armrests.
But again, as always, YMMV. If you find it’s more comfortable to use a palmrest while typing, go ahead.
Does your wrist often make angles such as in this photo..
Is your wrist usually straight ?
Do you keep it straight. but often make that angle to hit the left most keys ?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/YOSQm7g.png)
Do you keep your palm flat against the keyboard, or like in a handshake (near vertical)?
Your previous underarm problem is the result of your muscles Pulling your shoulders down and back close to your body..
The best two piece of advice I can give are get your chair (and keyboard) up higher, if you're using a keyboard tray you're almost certainly way too low, don't forget that another part of proper ergonomics that a lot of people forget about is the mid to lower part of your body. Unless you have very short legs you are almost certainly too low down. IMHO keyboard drawers/trays should be banned!Readers should note that this advice (avoiding keyboard trays) contradicts every empirical study I’ve seen about the subject; there are consistent findings that a flat or negatively-tilted keyboard on a low desk or tray (placed such that when the elbows are at a 90–100° angle, the fingers comfortably rest on the home row with the wrists straight) partly solves many of the problems (tension in the shoulders and back, wrist extension leading to pressure in the carpal tunnel, tension in the arms, excessive striking forces causing finger joint problems, etc.) associated with typing using a keyboard on a “normal” height desk.
Second bit of advice is something that helped me a ton,get your chair armrests up higher and plant your elbows.Probably reasonable enough to rest your elbows/forearms on something, but I also don’t think it’s strictly necessary.
The best two piece of advice I can give are get your chair (and keyboard) up higher, if you're using a keyboard tray you're almost certainly way too low, don't forget that another part of proper ergonomics that a lot of people forget about is the mid to lower part of your body. Unless you have very short legs you are almost certainly too low down. IMHO keyboard drawers/trays should be banned! (unless you have a desk that's really really high up).
Second bit of advice is something that helped me a ton,get your chair armrests up higher and plant your elbows. That helped me tons by taking a lot of the "pressure" off the rest of my arms and allowing me to concentrate on keeping my wrists straight and not letting them "slouch". I don't use _any_ wrist rests in front of my board and that was one of the things that I didn't like about the Kinesis Advantage, you don't really have a choice. That any the inverted style of the key wells really didn't work with the way my hands are. It caused me a ton of issues when I tried to use one.
Good luck with finding out what works for you. While it's great to get advice from people it can be very different from person to person so sometimes what works great for one person is bad for the next. You just have to keep at it and find what works best for you and stick with it.
I have a Matias Ergo Pro on order and can't wait for it to arrive. I suspect it's probably about as close to the perfect keyboard as I've found yet ... it being decent key switches and being truly split are two huge bonuses for me. I've been using Goldtouch V2's for a few years now and like them but I'm starting to wear out the switches (can you call a rubber dome a switch?) -- but all-in-all they've more than done their duty for the amount of time I've gotten out of them.
However, the Ergopro is very tempting to try out. Especially since I would like to try more tenting as I think that could benefit me. However, I am not sure if the Ergopro is enough tenting though. If I am not mistaken jacobolus mentioned somewhere that tenting around 30º can be very beneficial. I fear the Ergopro is not going to be able to do that.The ErgoPro has two entirely separate halves, meaning it can have as much tent as you want. Each half even has a tripod mount on the bottom, so you should be able to relatively easily build yourself some structure to hold the halves in whatever kind of position you prefer.
Your previous underarm problem is the result of your muscles Pulling your shoulders down and back close to your body..
When I first read this, I was thinking underarm as in under the shoulder joint. Tp4tissue, I think that might be what you were referring to in the quote above. If so, could you elaborate a bit because I have painful and tight tissue in that region. What might I be doing to cause this trouble? Thanks!
Readers should note that this advice (avoiding keyboard trays) contradicts every empirical study I�ve seen about the subject; there are consistent findings that a flat or negatively-tilted keyboard on a low desk or tray (placed such that when the elbows are at a 90�100� angle, the fingers comfortably rest on the home row with the wrists straight) partly solves many of the problems (tension in the shoulders and back, wrist extension leading to pressure in the carpal tunnel, tension in the arms, excessive striking forces causing finger joint problems, etc.) associated with typing using a keyboard on a �normal� height desk.
Readers should note that this advice (avoiding keyboard trays) contradicts every empirical study I�ve seen about the subject; there are consistent findings that a flat or negatively-tilted keyboard on a low desk or tray (placed such that when the elbows are at a 90�100� angle, the fingers comfortably rest on the home row with the wrists straight) partly solves many of the problems (tension in the shoulders and back, wrist extension leading to pressure in the carpal tunnel, tension in the arms, excessive striking forces causing finger joint problems, etc.) associated with typing using a keyboard on a �normal� height desk.
What has this angle advice got to do with keyboard trays? Unless you have incredibly short lower legs if you are using a keyboard tray under your desk then you are almost certainly not at the proper height for your LOWER body ergonomics -- this is what I was trying to illustrate here. Your feet should be flat on the floor, your knees at (or very close to) a 90 degree angle with your upper legs (thighs) roughly parallel to the floor.
P.S. YOu'll note that I said along with getting rid of the keyboard tray to also raise your chair ... so you're still going to have proper height and angles for both your arms AND your legs/lower body. From my experience most people who are using a keyboard tray and still sitting in the wrong position for it, either super low with your arms angled up or too high with your arms almost right down in your lap.
After just strolling around two offices here I can tell you first-hand that every single person/setup that has a keyboard tray attached had it wrong and in a very un-ergonomic manner, so I guess YMMV when it comes to it working by default. It certainly doesn't here or at most setups that I've seen in my personal experience.I’ve strolled around 5–6 big offices in the last few months. About 90% of everyone has a very unergonomic setup. :-)