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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: pr0ximity on Sat, 24 January 2015, 20:07:57

Title: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: pr0ximity on Sat, 24 January 2015, 20:07:57

So this is something that's been bothering me for a bit now, just haven't had the time to look around for info and possible solutions. After doing some searching and some tinkering I've come up empty.

Does anyone else's Model M's stabilized keys (with inserts, not the spacebar) feel very different when pressing down on the right vs. left side?

On mine, pressing down on the side of the key with the stabilizer insert results in a very mushy feeling, with the key coming back up very slowly. Pressing on the side with the spring and hammer the key feels normal and crisp, like the rest of the non-stabilized keys.

It makes my shift, backspace, and enter keys feel godawful to the point where I dislike using the board (it's difficult to tap the backspace key multiple times quickly).

I suspect this is because the stabilizing pin on the key is rubbing on the sidewalls of the insert, but I've never heard anyone else complain about this before. My inserts and keys are clean to the best of my ability (my shift keys are brand new RGB's from Unicomp, backspace and enter are originals) and reseating doesn't seem to change anything, the springs buckle very nicely. I've checked the alignment of the stabilizing pins to the best of my ability and tried slightly bending them one way or another in case they weren't straight in line with the insert's barrel) without success. I also thought maybe the pins were too big for the inserts, so I sanded one down a bit, but it doesn't seem to have helped. I may sand it further to see where that gets me (probably just a less stable key...).

My next thought is lubrication, but I'm wary of putting lube in the inserts. From what I've read that's a no-no for membrane BS boards?

Literally every other key on the board feels perfect, and I love the thing to death. But I seriously can't see myself using it until I can fix those stabilized keys.  :'(

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 24 January 2015, 20:22:18

Something like this has been discussed a few times before.

Some of the barrel inserts are not symmetrical - it definitely does matter which way around they go.

And sometimes you just need to change the angle of the inserts slightly, especially if you are mixing inserts and keycaps from different sources.

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: pr0ximity on Sat, 24 January 2015, 20:24:39

Quote from: rowdy on Sat, 24 January 2015, 20:22:18

Something like this has been discussed a few times before.

Some of the barrel inserts are not symmetrical - it definitely does matter which way around they go.

And sometimes you just need to change the angle of the inserts slightly, especially if you are mixing inserts and keycaps from different sources.

I'll keep tinkering with the alignment.

Not symmetrical how? As in flipping them 180° will result in a difference?

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 24 January 2015, 20:26:13

A link:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67309.msg1581276#msg1581276

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: XMIT on Thu, 29 January 2015, 06:16:41

I've found that the molds for the new Unicomp inserts are slightly different from the old 1980s inserts. The newer ones are smoother inside whereas the older ones seem to have a very slight lip about halfway down. Replacing the inserts made my chronic sticking right Shift key problems go away. I don't recommend using lube there as it is often too gunky and causes the key to stick in a different way.

You'll of course also need a new insert - the black one - if you want to put a new key set on an old board. Newer numeric keypad keys use inserts instead of stabilizers.

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: 1391406 on Thu, 29 January 2015, 11:24:39

Do the keys use stabilizer wires?

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: nubbinator on Thu, 29 January 2015, 11:26:48

You may also need new stabilizer inserts.  Sometimes they just start to stick.

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: 1391406 on Thu, 29 January 2015, 11:30:54

Also, have you tried swapping any of the keys that are sticking with keys that don't?

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: XMIT on Thu, 29 January 2015, 16:45:13

I did multiple key swaps on my boards - Unicomp versus IBM molds, new versus old keys - and found that stabilizer inserts were most often the culprit. In theory you may be able to modify the inside of the stabilizer insert to remove the rough spot (you can feel it if you just slide the insert against a keycaps' stabilizing post, holding it at an angle so that the post hits the edge of the inside of the insert). I've had the best luck with just replacing them.

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 29 January 2015, 17:51:22

How old is the board? As was said, it’s probably the inserts to blame. Perhaps some dirt has gotten between the stems and the inserts? You might be able to fix it by just thoroughly cleaning the inserts out, or you might be better off just getting new ones from Unicomp (they sell them for cheap). I also don’t see how lube could hurt anything, so if you want, give that a try.

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: 1391406 on Thu, 29 January 2015, 18:49:20

Swap the inserts from barrels with keys that don't stick and see if that makes any difference.

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 29 January 2015, 20:38:08

Quote from: nubbinator on Thu, 29 January 2015, 11:26:48

You may also need new stabilizer inserts.  Sometimes they just start to stick.

Can you lube the stabiliser insert thingies on a BS keyboard?

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: Snowdog993 on Thu, 29 January 2015, 20:59:43

Quote from: rowdy on Thu, 29 January 2015, 20:38:08

Can you lube the stabiliser insert thingies on a BS keyboard?

Not a good idea.  I have never done that.  I wouldn't recommend it either.

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 29 January 2015, 21:03:26

You could totally lube them. I’d recommend using mostly krytox grease, maybe the geekhackers thick kit. Shouldn't take very much lube, and should help dramatically. Make sure to thoroughly clean the inserts and keycap stems first though.

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: nubbinator on Thu, 29 January 2015, 21:04:30

Quote from: rowdy on Thu, 29 January 2015, 20:38:08

Quote from: nubbinator on Thu, 29 January 2015, 11:26:48

You may also need new stabilizer inserts.  Sometimes they just start to stick.

Can you lube the stabiliser insert thingies on a BS keyboard?

Sure.  Will it help, no.

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 29 January 2015, 21:37:03

One vote each way, and a wet blanket :p

Fair enough.  Mine are fine, I was just wondering if it would help someone else.

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: pr0ximity on Fri, 30 January 2015, 10:11:55

Thats for all of the suggestions, think I'm probably going to see if I can get some new inserts from Unicomp. I have new Unicomp RGB on my Shifts (err, I guess just the G) and the board itself is using the original inserts from '86, so I think it's safe to say new ones are worth a try.

I'm away from the board right now but I'll probably try switching the inserts around a bit more from one key to the other and on the OG keys vs. the Unicomp ones, at least while I wait for new inserts to be delivered. I'll be experimenting with floss modding it this coming week so the caps will be on and off of it quite regularly.

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: ander on Sun, 13 January 2019, 01:10:35

Note to compulsive "necro spotters": Yes, I know this is an old, old thread. You can tell by the dates on the other posts. Feel free to rephrase that, if you have nothing else to do there in your parent's basement suite. However, as this topic concerns boards made in the '80s and '90s—well before GH itself was created (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Geekhack)—it can never really be "old", no matter what you think. Yikes, what was that dazzling bolt of energy that shot by and exploded in the midst of those whinging date-obsessed readers? Ah, it was the devastating point I just made.

(http://www.earthexplodes.com/assets/images/comics/204-zombies.png)

Quote from: rowdy on Sat, 24 January 2015, 20:22:18

Something like this has been discussed a few times before... Some of the barrel inserts are not symmetrical - it definitely does matter which way around they go... And sometimes you just need to change the angle of the inserts slightly...

Thanks, Rowdy me mate, for your excellent advice. The Enter key on my favourite Model M (1986 barcode 1390131) was balking when not pressed on centre. I tried lubing the barrel and key with plastic-friendly Inox (https://www.amazon.com/INOX-MX3-100g-Inox-Small/dp/B004RZOA0A/ref=sr_1_cc_8), but it didn't help.

It didn't occur to me to remove and reinsert the stabilizer insert. I also noticed that, while it seemed to be firmly in place, I could get a bit of play from it by inserting a jeweler's screwdriver and gently shifting it from the bottom. I suspect it'd moved just enough to contact the key's stab pin, for it's working great again now.

Keyboard stabs are the only stable thing around here, too, so it's important they work properly.

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: mattlach on Sun, 13 January 2019, 16:01:54

I've had these keys sticking on my Unicomps, but never on my old Model M's.

Someone recently suggested to me lubing the inside of the holes to see if that helps.   I'm not sure what to use though.   Possibly a Silicone Oil?

Title: Re: M Buckling spring stabilized keys sticking
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 13 February 2019, 19:59:48

Quote from: ander on Sun, 13 January 2019, 01:10:35

Note to compulsive "necro spotters": Yes, I know this is an old, old thread. You can tell by the dates on the other posts. Feel free to rephrase that, if you have nothing else to do there in your parent's basement suite. However, as this topic concerns boards made in the '80s and '90s—well before GH itself was created (https://deskthority.net/wiki/Geekhack)—it can never really be "old", no matter what you think. Yikes, what was that dazzling bolt of energy that shot by and exploded in the midst of those whinging date-obsessed readers? Ah, it was the devastating point I just made.

Show Image

(http://www.earthexplodes.com/assets/images/comics/204-zombies.png)

Quote from: rowdy on Sat, 24 January 2015, 20:22:18

Something like this has been discussed a few times before... Some of the barrel inserts are not symmetrical - it definitely does matter which way around they go... And sometimes you just need to change the angle of the inserts slightly...

Thanks, Rowdy me mate, for your excellent advice. The Enter key on my favourite Model M (1986 barcode 1390131) was balking when not pressed on centre. I tried lubing the barrel and key with plastic-friendly Inox (https://www.amazon.com/INOX-MX3-100g-Inox-Small/dp/B004RZOA0A/ref=sr_1_cc_8), but it didn't help.

It didn't occur to me to remove and reinsert the stabilizer insert. I also noticed that, while it seemed to be firmly in place, I could get a bit of play from it by inserting a jeweler's screwdriver and gently shifting it from the bottom. I suspect it'd moved just enough to contact the key's stab pin, for it's working great again now.

Keyboard stabs are the only stable thing around here, too, so it's important they work properly.

:D

But a suggestion originally made by fohat, just happens to be something that I have put into practice myself.

Also you can try sticking a slender screwdriver into the inserts and wriggling them around a bit.  That definitely helped with one of my SSKs.