Post by: nubbinator on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:07:12
http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-77-Key-Model-F-4704-Keyboard-6019303-EXTREMELY-RARE-/321650836414?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae3e243be
Post by: bueller on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:09:10
For those of you who really have an expendable income and are willing to get the "deal" of the century.....for the seller that is.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-77-Key-Model-F-4704-Keyboard-6019303-EXTREMELY-RARE-/321650836414?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ae3e243be
Didn't you hear? It's FIFTEEN TIMES AS RARE AS A KISHSAVER!
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:15:17
Post by: Joey Quinn on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:24:52
Post by: Evo_Spec on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:31:12
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:31:45
His username here is Ellipse.
Post by: nubbinator on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:32:59
Are the 77keys really that much rarer than a kish???!!!?!
More rare? Yes. $2k + shipping rare? Hell no.
And, honestly, if you're selling something for more than $200, shipping should always be included as long as it's under 20lbs and within a reasonable size. $2k plus shipping is just a slap in the face to an already insulting price.
I wonder how much he paid for that from Cindy (elecplus) at Deskthority? All this guy does is flip for profit...
His username here is Ellipse.
Some people are *******s. Now we know the user name of another one of them.
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:34:30
Post by: nubbinator on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:36:53
I really don't think the price is that far out of line considering there are there know units of this across GH and DT combined.
If they bought it from Cindy at a reasonable price and then are immediately flipping it (as JD stated), then it is unreasonable and they're an *******.
In any case, I still find it unreasonable for it to be more than $1k.
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:42:00
Post by: bueller on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:43:09
I really don't think the price is that far out of line considering there are there know units of this across GH and DT combined.
If they bought it from Cindy at a reasonable price and then are immediately flipping it (as JD stated), then it is unreasonable and they're an *******.
In any case, I still find it unreasonable for it to be more than $1k.
Agreed, I very much doubt this guy pay $2K for this board so he's pretty much just an opportunistic *******.
Post by: Michael on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:47:43
Post by: Sifo on Sat, 24 January 2015, 23:49:37
As long as it has a Mandolin Crystal, it's worth it...
**** you beat me to it
Post by: orihalcon on Sun, 25 January 2015, 00:41:24
Pretty sure I've got an M122 around here that has an ever-elusive Mandolin Crystal. Probably the only known M122 to have one. Certainly rarer than an F77. Just forgot to mark which one has it after being lost in the excitement of discovering it.
Post by: MGH on Sun, 25 January 2015, 00:47:30
Post by: exitfire401 on Sun, 25 January 2015, 00:50:08
What does a Mandolin Crystal look like? :confused:
Ever see a bottle of snake oil?
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 25 January 2015, 00:50:43
Internals are replacements from IBM circa '91.
Post by: nubbinator on Sun, 25 January 2015, 00:52:48
I just noticed something in the ebay post on this.
Internals are replacements from IBM circa '91.
That just screams added value to me. Not only do you get something super rare, but you get the newest version of it!
Post by: Parak on Sun, 25 January 2015, 01:04:59
Most I've seen so far is that one lot of 4 nib g80-5000s for something around $9k...
Post by: Xonar on Sun, 25 January 2015, 01:05:32
Perhaps Ellipse is trying to run a business based on selling these keyboards, and is thinking like a businessman. I can understand this, but it's just not something I think should be done.
Here's an idea: Why don't a bunch of us get together and do a group buy for this 77 key and find a new owner for it through a contest or giveaway? Seems to me like that would solve the problem of only hardcore collectors being able to own a great board like this, if we'd be able to get enough people to participate in the GB. What do you guys think?
EDIT: If he's getting them from an ecycler, I think he still oughta be doing the same thing that Cindy does when she gets boards from ecyclers, but I guess it's more up to him to charge whatever he wants at that point.
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 25 January 2015, 01:14:53
Post by: Xonar on Sun, 25 January 2015, 01:20:29
All you guys are sure quick to jump to libelous bull****; quite uncool if you ask me. I�m pretty sure Ellipse didn�t get anything from Elecplus.
Ignore that, I confused him with someone else. I'm leaning more towards the possibility of him getting these from ecyclers, which makes me feel better about his selling practices. He probably got this board for a lot more than one of Cindy's 77 keys, and I can understand the high price somewhat.
Post by: faceyourfaces on Sun, 25 January 2015, 04:52:12
All you guys are sure quick to jump to libelous bull****; quite uncool if you ask me. I�m pretty sure Ellipse didn�t get anything from Elecplus.I believe Ellipse has flipped boards from Cindy in the past, and since Cindy came across some 77 keys recently, it's logical to assume that's what happened here as well. I don't think anyone's 100% sure either way, so maybe Ellipse can shed some light on the situation.
Ignore that, I confused him with someone else. I'm leaning more towards the possibility of him getting these from ecyclers, which makes me feel better about his selling practices. He probably got this board for a lot more than one of Cindy's 77 keys, and I can understand the high price somewhat.
Cindy came across 77 keys? When?
Post by: intelli78 on Sun, 25 January 2015, 04:58:07
All you guys are sure quick to jump to libelous bull****; quite uncool if you ask me. I’m not sure if Ellipse ever bought anything from Elecplus, but for these keyboards he claims to have his own e-recycler sources. I’m not sure how much he’s paying them, but finding stuff that would otherwise get scrapped and reselling it on public markets with a goal of maximizing return is hardly a crime. Either he’ll find a buyer or he won’t (in which case the price will probably come down after a while).+1,
Gee whiz...
It's great to sell to your buddies at good prices and discourage blatant flipping within the community, but this is just dragging a man's name through the mud.
He has already said these are from recyclers, and otherwise they'd probably still be on a shelf or in a shredder. What exactly is wrong with rescuing and restoring boards and getting a good price?
It's great for us when someone like Cindy comes around and passes on savings, but no one is OBLIGATED to do that.
This is like a twisted, strongarm form of begging. Either sell at prices the ingroup says is "fair" (i.e., transfer value from your pocket to theirs by selling below market value) or have your reputation publicly trashed.
No one is forcing anyone to pay this price. If it's too expensive (which is not at all certain given it's a 3 of a kind) then it will not sell. Simple as that. It's not like it's an overpriced WASD that a n00b might accidentally overpay for or a scam Leopold auction. It's a truly rare item with no precedent for the price...
I think the backlash against quote-unquote "profiteering" is more rotten than the original problem. Of course I do NOT want to see keyboards turned into a mainstream target for flippers. That really messed up the retro gaming hobby and I cringe when n00bs join just to ask what their latest find is worth.
But price, and supply and demand, are not just theories you can choose to ignore. Rare/desirable items command a premium EVERYWHERE...not just in the keyboard community. We at GH are not special snowflakes, unbeholden to these realities.
So by all means positively encourage community members to avoid markup. It is commendable and a good behavior both to encourage and to do.
But this is wayward, not nice, contrary to the workings of economics, and IMO misguided anyway because it's not an unreasonable price for what's being sold.
Note that this is not meant as a personal attack against anyone inside or outside this thread, please do not take it that way.
Post by: intelli78 on Sun, 25 January 2015, 05:00:16
I don't think any have been confirmed, but she thinks/thought she may have a lead. That would, of course, drive prices down considerably if it happened. Anyone considering buying should probably factor that into their decision.All you guys are sure quick to jump to libelous bull****; quite uncool if you ask me. I�m pretty sure Ellipse didn�t get anything from Elecplus.I believe Ellipse has flipped boards from Cindy in the past, and since Cindy came across some 77 keys recently, it's logical to assume that's what happened here as well. I don't think anyone's 100% sure either way, so maybe Ellipse can shed some light on the situation.
Ignore that, I confused him with someone else. I'm leaning more towards the possibility of him getting these from ecyclers, which makes me feel better about his selling practices. He probably got this board for a lot more than one of Cindy's 77 keys, and I can understand the high price somewhat.
Cindy came across 77 keys? When?
Post by: snoopy on Sun, 25 January 2015, 05:09:59
And that price is just insane and far away from a real market value. And he just keeps on referring to the 2k$ Industrial SSK, where two idiots bid the price up.
Post by: bueller on Sun, 25 January 2015, 05:15:58
And he just keeps on referring to the 2k$ Industrial SSK, where two idiots bid the price up.
Which I honestly think is far more valuable than this anyway. Sure, there may be more of them around but wayyyy more people would be interested in them due to the fact that they don't have to be modified.
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 25 January 2015, 08:46:52
Some people are *******s. Now we know the user name of another one of them.
A person who has a rare and valuable item can sell it for whatever he wants in a free open market.
I really don't think the price is that far out of line considering
I don't either. Looking at the rarity and desirability of this keyboard, $2K seems about right.
But shipping should be included at that price.
It makes me quite sad to think that I will likely never own this keyboard, but that does not translate into anger at someone who has one for sale.
Post by: berserkfan on Sun, 25 January 2015, 08:46:59
I warned early on about Ellipse. He isn’t really a member of the community. Right from the start he was pretty open and shameless about his intentions – he basically joined geekhack to make money off us.
Let’s put things this way. Ezrahilyer and Orihalcon also make money from us. But they are also genuinely interested in what they do, they contribute to modding discussions, they try to do things for the community, they engage us in normal conversations without dollar signs in their eyes. They’re like the small businessmen and craftsmen who live within the community that they do business with.
Ellipse is nothing like that.
The problem is that many geeks have no self control and too much money. It must be those $500000 a year programming jobs?
The best way to deal with this guy is not to engage him. I have no intention of ever buying anything from him.
[redacted]
For those who want to propose market forces, fine. Let him start the bidding at $0.01 and have us all bid. If this item is really worth so much to geeks, I'm sure he'll get a $1,000,000 winning bid.
Post by: orihalcon on Sun, 25 January 2015, 09:31:57
Maybe include an xWhatsit Converter (choice of installed or uninstalled) and free shipping to sweeten the deal?
Post by: intelli78 on Sun, 25 January 2015, 10:14:51
If you’re so desperate to buy from him just to satisfy your curiosity, simple. Read his descriptions carefully and take a snapshot of everything. After buying, play with the board, open it and look inside, do your keyboard porn thing or whatever makes you happy. Then figure out a different interpretation of his descriptions – you can always get a lawyer friend to help you. Complain to paypal.
Don’t worry, paypal ‘claims specialists’ are normal people who probably have never seen a $1999 keyboard before. There’s no way these guys will think that ancient 77-key weirdo is worth $1999, so they’ll take your side. Send it back to him, get your full refund, and he still has to pay for return shipping! After that experience he’ll be less keen to exploit us geeks.
Is my proposal unethical? Sure. But is it illegal? No. Just like Ellipse’s way of conducting himself.
There is nothing unethical about what he is doing, but you're right, to do what was just described would be HIGHLY unethical.
I agree that he can name the price to ask, but I don't think it will sell. My guess is that it's more of a $1200-$1500 item, if he gets his asking price, good for him. I do like the idea of it increasing awareness so that people look harder for them. He might be basing the price on offers he's received in the past too, since I'm sure there have been a few.
It probably should include an xWhatsit Converter (choice of installed or uninstalled) and free shipping at that price though.
It does include an xwhatsit. Also, free shipping is never free, anytime you see that it has already been priced into the item.
Post by: Photekq on Sun, 25 January 2015, 10:18:21
There is nothing unethical about what he is doing, but you're right, to do what was just described would be HIGHLY unethical.+1 Ellipse does nothing unethical. Sure, he's shameless with his advertising, but not unethical.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 25 January 2015, 11:14:19
Some of these comments are highly unethical and rude. Return fraud as suggested by Berserk's now redacted commentary?
There is a lot of ill will from some of you, but I won't be bullied into selling rare stuff for a song. My stuff sells within a couple months of listing it and I'm fine with setting a price and being patient. Feel free to disregard my posts if you are offended by someone asking for a price reflective of supply and demand. If there were others out there then my price would reflect that.
If you want the item, you can buy it. Otherwise there is no deception here - what's pictured is the item up for sale. The price is the price. Plus I've USB converted it with xwhatsit's controller and ANSI modified it. This unit requires no hardware modification to start typing on it - just plug in the USB cable and configure the spare keys to your liking.
I have something that's virtually one of a kind and I am free to advertise and sell it. The highest end equipment for any hobby is expensive: cars, photography, video production, music, computers, etc. If it doesn't sell I am happy to keep it. If someone wants to spend the $2,000 instead on a 15" MBP they'll use for a few years or a Canon DSLR "L" series lens for their photography hobby, that's fine too. And neither of those are rare. Those companies set the price for their goods and people who are willing to pay, pay.
No photographer would bully Canon saying you're crazy to charge $2,000 for one camera lens when cameras comes free with cell phones.
I haven't resold or "flipped" any keyboards from elecplus/Cindy or the GH seller of F107s. These are all acquired directly from IT recyclers/remarketers who buy up old technology and then resell them at a profit. I happen to have a number of recycler contacts just like elecplus and others and that has helped me save all these cool keyboards from the grinder. The ones I've found have been sitting in warehouses for decades and it is a miracle they were not tossed beforehand.
I was about to buy two APL Unsavers but the remarketer said their warehouse guys threw them in the garbage a year ago.
It is not unethical or shameful to promote what you're offering and write some paragraphs on the details, especially if it is a high-ticket item.
Auctions go to the highest bidder - everyone else is not willing to pay as much as that highest bidder and they do not win the item. So the item sells for what the highest bidder is willing to pay, not what most people are willing to pay for the item. Agreed I joined the forums recently and am far from a senior contributor. Just trimming down my collection. I paid a lot for these and don't want to give them away. My buyers know what they are buying. And you can have free shipping or make me an offer if you want. I sold my Industrial SSK's at $900 to $1,175 each. Isn't the F77 at least twice as rare as that?
The recyclers all check eBay now and see the high completed transactions for some IBM keyboards. They see some ergonomic and other rare Model M's sell for $500 to $1000 there. If I lowball them or insult their pricing as many of you seem to be doing here, they would just say "I'll just go sell it on eBay at the price these sell for there."
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 25 January 2015, 11:39:26
Some of these comments are highly unethical and rude.
I prefer Geekhack to Deskthority in general, perhaps partially because I am located in the US, but I am always ashamed by the venom and anger that often comes on display here when an extremely desirable item is found for sale at a high price.
I am appalled and disgusted to see a "rare" (weeks or months old) specialty keycap sell for $200.
A monumentally rare and desirable keyboard selling for $2K makes far more sense to me.
Please accept an apology from this Geekhacker for the jealous, spiteful, and infantile rantings by some of my fellow members.
Post by: JaccoW on Sun, 25 January 2015, 11:45:05
You have every right to sell it for whatever price you want Ellipse, especially if you have modified it to that extent.
Good luck on the sale.
P.s. Do come by here more often. It seems like you might have performed some interesting mods in the past. :)
Post by: Hypersphere on Sun, 25 January 2015, 12:07:21
Post by: Xonar on Sun, 25 January 2015, 12:15:20
Maybe the prices for these keyboards are out of range for many of us, but if it were not for him getting these from recyclers, these keyboards likely would never see the light of day. I'm much happier with someone who has disposable income getting these than them being shredded. Everyone should be able to agree on that.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 25 January 2015, 13:15:05
Had it not been for some great work including fohat's Model F layout modification tutorial on GH, xwhatsit's work inventing and building a Model F replacement controller, and Soarer's work getting F122s et. al. to work on modern-day computers, I may never have made the jump to Model F keyboards in the first place, so the forums are great to learn more about these keyboards.
For a lot of these IT recyclers you have to put in a couple thousand dollars at once to get them to consider selling you anything. They won't even talk to you or look through their warehouse if you are buying one or two keyboards. And if you do this, you may end up buying a lot of stuff you don't need for the few good keyboards in the pile that you want to keep.
That's why someone at one firm I spoke with told me that over 100 retired IBM beam spring keyboards were thrown out, unsold. No one wanted the lot. 100+ beamspring keyboards just took up too much space.
Another IT remarketer/recycler spent a long time advertising a bulk lot of the IBM 4700 bank keyboards that everyone's hoping will show up in higher quantity, but ended up destroying them because no one wanted the lot.
To pass along that great bulk-made Model F xwhatsit controller deal I had to pay for everything upfront, and they still haven't all sold yet.
Have the mods considered implemeting an upvote/downvote type feature where too many downvotes will auto-hide the post?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sun, 25 January 2015, 13:22:32
Have the mods considered implemeting an upvote/downvote type feature where too many downvotes will auto-hide the post?
That's called reddit.
Post by: E TwentyNine on Sun, 25 January 2015, 13:28:07
Have the mods considered implemeting an upvote/downvote type feature where too many downvotes will auto-hide the post?
That's called reddit.
I also find it an odd reaction to this thread. Why would you want to suppress anyone else's comments?
If you don't like a user, auto-hide them and be done with it.
Post by: nubbinator on Sun, 25 January 2015, 13:28:26
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 25 January 2015, 13:39:10
All you guys are sure quick to jump to libelous bull****; quite uncool if you ask me. I’m not sure if Ellipse ever bought anything from Elecplus, but for these keyboards he claims to have his own e-recycler sources. I’m not sure how much he’s paying them, but finding stuff that would otherwise get scrapped and reselling it on public markets with a goal of maximizing return is hardly a crime. Either he’ll find a buyer or he won’t (in which case the price will probably come down after a while).+1,
Gee whiz...
It's great to sell to your buddies at good prices and discourage blatant flipping within the community, but this is just dragging a man's name through the mud.
He has already said these are from recyclers, and otherwise they'd probably still be on a shelf or in a shredder. What exactly is wrong with rescuing and restoring boards and getting a good price?
It's great for us when someone like Cindy comes around and passes on savings, but no one is OBLIGATED to do that.
This is like a twisted, strongarm form of begging. Either sell at prices the ingroup says is "fair" (i.e., transfer value from your pocket to theirs by selling below market value) or have your reputation publicly trashed.
No one is forcing anyone to pay this price. If it's too expensive (which is not at all certain given it's a 3 of a kind) then it will not sell. Simple as that. It's not like it's an overpriced WASD that a n00b might accidentally overpay for or a scam Leopold auction. It's a truly rare item with no precedent for the price...
I think the backlash against quote-unquote "profiteering" is more rotten than the original problem. Of course I do NOT want to see keyboards turned into a mainstream target for flippers. That really messed up the retro gaming hobby and I cringe when n00bs join just to ask what their latest find is worth.
But price, and supply and demand, are not just theories you can choose to ignore. Rare/desirable items command a premium EVERYWHERE...not just in the keyboard community. We at GH are not special snowflakes, unbeholden to these realities.
So by all means positively encourage community members to avoid markup. It is commendable and a good behavior both to encourage and to do.
But this is wayward, not nice, contrary to the workings of economics, and IMO misguided anyway because it's not an unreasonable price for what's being sold.
Note that this is not meant as a personal attack against anyone inside or outside this thread, please do not take it that way.
+1!
Parak got his F77 from that eBay listing at a fantastic price!
E TwentyNine - IMO some comments that are offensive and rude ought to be hidden by default if you so choose. Good idea with the auto-hide recommendation.
Post by: orihalcon on Sun, 25 January 2015, 13:55:46
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 25 January 2015, 16:26:52
I'll just leave this here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/141355086012?orig_cvip=true
Parak got his F77 from that eBay listing at a fantastic price!
Yeah, he was super excited about it, and really lucked out that there was a BIN for so low with a reserve price set:
From IRC logs (hopefully he doesn’t mind my repeating them):
Parak: twitches
Parak: http://www.ebay.com/itm/141355086012
Parak: twitches some more
jacobolus: so I take it you got it?
Parak: yeah
Parak: well, it still needs to get to me, and only then I can relax
jacobolus: what will you do with it?
Parak: I'll build a little shrine to it and pray to it five times a day
Parak: it's a damn unicorn
[...]
Parak: 20 minutes was only because I was stuck in bathroom...
Parak: I would have probably died if I came back, saw the notification, furiously clicked it, and it would have said sold
Parak: I was extremely lucky - it had a reserve, somebody bid, but bids under reserve still allow a buy it now
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 25 January 2015, 17:01:06
Quote from: jdcarpe
All this guy does is flip for profit...This post is a little harsh and mean spirited, but whatever.
On the other hand...
Quote from: bueller
Agreed, I very much doubt this guy pay $2K for this board so he's pretty much just an opportunistic *******.
Quote from: nubbinator
Some people are *******s. Now we know the user name of another one of them.
Quote from: berserkfan
I look very sadly on this debacle. Once again, someone is exploiting us geeks. [...]
If you’re so desperate to buy from him just to satisfy your curiosity, simple. Read his descriptions carefully and take a snapshot of everything. After buying, play with the board, open it and look inside, do your keyboard porn thing or whatever makes you happy. Then figure out a different interpretation of his descriptions – you can always get a lawyer friend to help you. Complain to paypal [...] they’ll take your side. Send it back to him, get your full refund, and he still has to pay for return shipping! After that experience he’ll be less keen to exploit us geeks. [...]
These posts are totally uncalled for, way below the standard I’d expect on this forum.
So are you kids going to publicly apologize now, or just quietly slink away when it’s pointed out what jerks you were being, and let fohat apologize for you?
Post by: nubbinator on Sun, 25 January 2015, 17:07:51
Are the 77keys really that much rarer than a kish???!!!?!
More rare? Yes. $2k + shipping rare? Hell no.
And, honestly, if you're selling something for more than $200, shipping should always be included as long as it's under 20lbs and within a reasonable size. $2k plus shipping is just a slap in the face to an already insulting price.
I'll recant stating they're an ******* for the apparently erroneous claim made by someone else that the board was bought for a reasonable price from Cindy and flipped for a massive profit, but I still stand by all my other statements about sale price.
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 25 January 2015, 17:16:22
Anyway, maybe lock this thread? I think it’s pretty much played out now.
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 25 January 2015, 17:21:16
2. I have nothing to apologize for. What I said is true.
3. Respectfully, fohat.digs can speak for himself, only.
4. I still don't appreciate people who come around here for the sole purpose of fleecing our membership. I will continue to try and protect others from intentional price gouging, when I see it happening.
Post by: nubbinator on Sun, 25 January 2015, 17:22:18
That said, I will not apologize for calling them out on a ridiculous price. I don't think there's anything wrong with calling people out for overpricing things. It's that overpricing and everyone feeling that they deserve a massive profit that makes for a lot of the problems we see today, from Clacks to keyboards. It's even worse when someone creates an account here solely to sell overpriced things.
I'm no "kid" and I have a right to voice my opinion.
As to locking it, if a mod wants to, they can, I think people have the right to speak their mind.
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 25 January 2015, 17:24:53
I feel no remorse for saying that the price is horrible.
That is what makes a free market tick.
Personally, I think that somebody who would pay over $20 for a "manufactured" key cap (unless it was cast out of a precious metal) is nuts. A custom, hand-crafted cap could be worth much more, I agree.
I also think that anybody who paid "x" hundreds of dollars for a plastic keyboard with Cherry switches, built after President Obama took office, is out of his mind.
On the other hand, this keyboard, more rare and precious than a unicorn, carries a fair and appropriate price tag.
Of course I can't afford it, and probably never will, but I would say the same if it was $3K.
And honestly, this is the first keyboard that I have ever seen that I personally believe to be worth over $1K.
Besides everything else, the seller has already done "all the right mods" to make it perfect, straight out of the box.
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 25 January 2015, 18:42:16
I feel no remorse for saying that the price is horrible.
That is what makes a free market tick.
Personally, I think that somebody who would pay over $20 for a "manufactured" key cap (unless it was cast out of a precious metal) is nuts. A custom, hand-crafted cap could be worth much more, I agree.
I also think that anybody who paid "x" hundreds of dollars for a plastic keyboard with Cherry switches, built after President Obama took office, is out of his mind.
On the other hand, this keyboard, more rare and precious than a unicorn, carries a fair and appropriate price tag.
Of course I can't afford it, and probably never will, but I would say the same if it was $3K.
And honestly, this is the first keyboard that I have ever seen that I personally believe to be worth over $1K.
Besides everything else, the seller has already done "all the right mods" to make it perfect, straight out of the box.
Couldn't have said it better.
Post by: REVENGE on Sun, 25 January 2015, 18:45:19
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 25 January 2015, 18:51:02
I can only assume that IBM rebuilt them as they were no longer manufactured, but still in use at whatever banking establishment still used them.
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 25 January 2015, 18:55:50
4. I still don't appreciate people who come around here for the sole purpose of fleecing our membership. I will continue to try and protect others from intentional price gouging, when I see it happening.Ellipse showed up here and made a bunch of posts in the 'media' section showing off some great IBM keyboards. Over at Deskthority, he bought components and soldered together a bunch of capsense controllers, which have helped a bunch of people (including a bunch of geekhackers) to bring old Model F (http://deskthority.net/for-sale-f55/around-50-xwhatsit-model-f-usb-controllers-30-each-shipping-t9093.html) and beam spring (http://deskthority.net/f-o-r-s-a-l-e-f58/around-50-xwhatsit-beamspring-usb-controllers-30-each-ship-t9136.html) keyboards back to life. He sold them for an entirely reasonable price.
He put up a post in the classifieds section at geekhack after meeting the requirements to do so. If you think that was too soon, or if you think he’s too aggressive in marketing stuff for sale, maybe lobby for those classifieds requirements to be changed, or send him a private message asking that he engage with the community in some more complete way, or at the very least stick to calling him out for things he actually did. If you just said “this guy sure aggressively markets his stuff, and he doesn’t seem to be interested in becoming a member of the community” then we can probably manage some semblance of a reasonable discussion about that.
This particular “great finds” post wasn’t made by Ellipse; I hardly think any public auction on eBay that then gets linked by a different member here can be interpreted as an attempt to take advantage specifically of geekhack members.
Anyhow, I don’t think it’s at all fair to say that his “sole purpose” (or indeed his purpose at all) is to fleece anyone. Who are you to judge that this particular auction is “price gouging” or “fleecing”?
To “fleece” someone is to defraud/cheat/swindle them, usually someone with more information/experience getting the best of someone clueless. Absolutely no one is going to accidentally buy this keyboard for $2000 because they’re clueless. The only people interested at all are serious collectors. If you want to define “fleece” down to just mean “overcharge”, then who is deciding the proper price? There are basically none of these for sale anywhere, so there’s no clearly established market price. I suspect if you wanted to buy Parak’s, you’d need to pay more than $2000, but I’m not Parak so I couldn’t tell you for sure.
If you want to get technical, “price gouging” is what happens sellers price basic necessities at outrageously high prices after extreme shocks (like natural disasters, etc.), and people who can’t afford it end up starving or suffering serious harms. No homeless dudes are going to starve because they couldn’t get a 25 year old IBM keyboard.
As far as I can tell, Ellipse’s auction and all of his posts have been entirely straight-forward and devoid of any kind of trickery. His ebay pages are very clear and explicit, with good pictures, and thorough text.
Charging higher for a very rare computer keyboard than your personal concept of what it’s worth is not “price gouging”, or “fleecing”. It’s just a routine pricing decision in an uncertain market. If nobody wants the keyboard for $2000, then it’ll either stay on the market for a long time unsold, or the price will drop until someone is willing to pay. This is exactly what every seller should do in my opinion. There’s no good reason for a seller to charge a tiny fraction of market price just to appease a handful of angry dudes somewhere on the internet who think the price is too high.
* * *
If you (you generically, this goes for everyone here) want to warn buyers away from paying too much, then some reasonable things to say might be “I don’t think this is worth that much; you should get X keyboard for $Y instead” or “I just saw one of these clear in a contested auction for the much cheaper price $Z” or “I have a lead that 10 more of these keyboards are going to hit the market next week, so you should wait for the price to fall”, or “damn I’m jealous but I would never spend that much on a single keyboard”, or I’ll even take “I hope this comes with Mandolin crystals”.
If you’re going to instead make claims like “wow this seller is probably a fraudster/scammer/profiteer/*******/...” then you’d better have some damn good evidence to back it up; these kind of character attacks without anything to back them up give our whole community a bad name, especially when the one libelous attack turns into a whole dog pile without anyone stopping to look for proof.
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 25 January 2015, 19:06:36
These replies show up with weird "Re:"e;Fantastic"e ...." headers instead of the proper thread title.
Somehow, this has got to be tied to the quoting/reply problem I reported elsewhere:
#54 Jacobolus
#10/48 Jcarpe
#40 E29
#39 Spam Ray
#32 Photekq
# 24/25/31 Intelli78
Post by: jdcarpe on Sun, 25 January 2015, 19:42:05
@jacobulus, I know well your love for debate, but I can forgive your penchant for rhetoric, because you are no simple "armchair warrior" or "keyboard cowboy." You make and do things here, which I highly respect. My beef is not with you, although I find it somewhat amusing that you have chosen to champion this individual, for whatever reason.
And in reality, this is an internet forum, not a marketplace or other public venue where sellers are judged by the public at-large by the comments we make. We, as participants of this internet forum, are afforded liberal application of the First Amendment, due to the way we interact with each other here. So your usage the term "libelous" to describe the comments in this thread is not quite appropriate.
I may be an *******, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 25 January 2015, 19:49:08
I may be an *******, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Seriously considering adding this to my signature.
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 25 January 2015, 19:52:59
If you prefer, I can stick to calling your character attacks “callumnious” instead.
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 25 January 2015, 20:05:18
I may be an *******, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Seriously considering adding this to my signature.
Right? That's an awesome line.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 25 January 2015, 20:05:34
orihalcon - I would agree with you - the F77 keyboard cable was wrapped that way when I got it, and combined with the repair log and virtually unused inner assembly, it seems like there may have been a failure in the keyboard around 1991, then a fast replacement with another 4700 bank keyboard to minimize down time, then this F77 was sent to an IBM repair facility and left on the shelf in a warehouse as a spare. Again, just my thinking on what happened.
My guess is many F62s and F77s were "upgraded" to F107s within a few years after they were introduced, unless the client objected. Especially if they were leased from IBM in the first place which many 4700 bank branch systems likely were. Probably similar to the AT&T phone repair people being required by AT&T policy to replace the candlestick phones that were technically rented from the phone company in the 30s and 40s with later model, non-candlestick phones after they came out (unless the homeowner objected).
Post by: Touch_It on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:10:07
I'm actually very interested to see what happens with this keyboard.
Post by: kishy on Sun, 25 January 2015, 22:36:55
I'm actually very interested to see what happens with this keyboard.
As am I...
And to vouch somewhat for Ellipse's statements, I've spoken with many resellers across North America back when I was trying to find my namesake keyboards - indeed they don't want to talk in small quantities. Their world talks by the pallet load, not by units, and a pallet load of scrap metal plus the associated logistics and processing time to get anything ready to use is a lot more expensive than I think most have available to invest.
That being said, I want one of these keyboards and I am forever regretful that I went live with my information prior to securing one for myself. But, well, that's life.
Post by: E TwentyNine on Mon, 26 January 2015, 07:51:10
That being said, I want one of these keyboards and I am forever regretful that I went live with my information prior to securing one for myself. But, well, that's life.
That's the life of an enthusiast. You find something interesting and instead of trying to monetize it you share it with the community.
Your detailed documentation of a multitude of IBM keyboards is a go-to reference for many and appreciated by said community.
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 26 January 2015, 08:03:11
That being said, I want one of these keyboards and I am forever regretful that I went live with my information prior to securing one for myself. But, well, that's life.
That's the life of an enthusiast. You find something interesting and instead of trying to monetize it you share it with the community.
Your detailed documentation of a multitude of IBM keyboards is a go-to reference for many and appreciated by said community.
QFT
Post by: bueller on Mon, 26 January 2015, 08:08:27
So are you kids going to publicly apologize now, or just quietly slink away when it�s pointed out what jerks you were being, and let fohat apologize for you?
lol kids. I stand by my statement, I ain't apologising for ****.
Post by: E TwentyNine on Mon, 26 January 2015, 08:32:06
I may be an *******, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Seriously considering adding this to my signature.
Right? That's an awesome line.
You people need to watch The Big Lebowski.
(http://i.imgur.com/9dYHP97.jpg)
Post by: bueller on Mon, 26 January 2015, 08:33:18
I may be an *******, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Seriously considering adding this to my signature.
Right? That's an awesome line.
You people need to watch The Big Lebowski.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/9dYHP97.jpg)
One of my favourite movies actually!
Post by: bueller on Mon, 26 January 2015, 08:35:44
Post by: 0100010 on Mon, 26 January 2015, 19:39:54
I may be an *******, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Seriously considering adding this to my signature.
Right? That's an awesome line.
You people need to watch The Big Lebowski.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/9dYHP97.jpg)
Obviously, you're not a golfer. :thumb:
Post by: Venatorious on Sun, 01 March 2015, 19:21:29
I think the price is very much, but can be justified. Its a one of a kind item that cannot be reproduced without IBM going back to their roots. No shipping is a bullet to the balls, I think he should reconsider that move if he wants to sell it.
So maybe it is one of those deals where he wants to squeeze every dollar out the keyboard. But I am sure that anyone else that did not know the community would do the same thing if he knew how much the board costs and wanted to sell it. Which brings me to my next point. In general, I wish people would only sell on r/mechmarket or sell here or deskthority than use ebay. Why? Because anyone can look at the prices on ebay and see these absolutely insane bidding wars that have huge price tags that justifies selling them for >200$. So eventually no one can buy the boards at a reasonable price anywhere anymore.
Also, if he bought it from Cindy for a reasonable price and then is trying to make this much money off of it then that is just wrong.
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 02 March 2015, 07:15:53
I wish people would only sell on r/mechmarket or sell here or deskthority than use ebay.
Clearly, you are "a buyer" and not "a seller".
I seldom get a good price for my items here because "everybody knows what things are worth" (that is, they know what they wish that they could buy them for, and somebody said that they got one for even less in 2009).
Ebay, for all of its rapaciousness (and I have written thousands of words on that subject, here and elsewhere) is the marketplace for the planet, and that is where you will find the most serious and well-heeled buyers.
A quick stroll through this thread will show you what a bunch of jealous drooling nerds Geekhackers can be.
Post by: nubbinator on Mon, 02 March 2015, 08:21:21
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 03 March 2015, 12:10:18
If it does not sell I am happy to keep it as a spare.
Post by: nubbinator on Tue, 03 March 2015, 12:33:19