Adjustable tenting and split is what makes for the ultimate ergonomic package.
This is going 1 step forward, and 2 steps back.
Adjustable tenting and split is what makes for the ultimate ergonomic package..
I believe the creator of "that board" certainly recognize BOTH facets, yet neglected to implement them due to what's likely cowardice..
This is going 1 step forward, and 2 steps back.
Adjustable tenting and split is what makes for the ultimate ergonomic package..
I believe the creator of "that board" certainly recognize BOTH facets, yet neglected to implement them due to what's likely cowardice..
Despite how expensive it is to import, I'm pretty interested in the Esrille (http://www.esrille.com/keyboard/index.html). I wanted to know if anyone here had any experience with one.I don’t think anyone in the western keyboard community has bought one of these. Have they even produced any, beyond prototypes? Were any commercial ones sold in Japan?
very high (>25) key rollover if possible.Are you doing chorded stenography, or what? You have 10 fingers, so this means you want to have each finger pressing an average of 2.5 keys each, and still have them all register? In what kind of circumstance is that necessary?
I'm also interested in the keyboard.io but less sure of the thumb keys. Have the dimensions been decided on? [...] Is there a good reason to wait for the keyboardio (besides price)?The keyboard.io thumb keys have been moved around a few times in the last 6 months, but I think they’re finally pretty much nailed down now. I got to try their latest prototype a few days ago, and it’s pretty nice. They are planning to launch a kickstart campaign sometime real soon.
Does anyone have any other recommendations?I’ve been trying to work on Ergodox-like keyboards with an improved thumb section, which I hope can be put up through MassDrop as Ergodox alternatives, see my thread here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848
I believe the creator of "that board" certainly recognize BOTH facets, yet neglected to implement them due to what's likely cowardice..tp4: do you need to be such a jerk about this? Seriously, “cowardice”?
Wow, did not even know this existed. This reminds me of many of the Japanese ergo boards from back in the nineties. [...] I wonder about the research that went into this keyboard. I would like to know more about that.
I believe the creator of "that board" certainly recognize BOTH facets, yet neglected to implement them due to what's likely cowardice..tp4: do you need to be such a jerk about this? Seriously, “cowardice”?Wow, did not even know this existed. This reminds me of many of the Japanese ergo boards from back in the nineties. [...] I wonder about the research that went into this keyboard. I would like to know more about that.
It’s explicitly modeled on the Japanese TRON project and NEC M-type keyboards. If you want to see the research about that, there are a bunch of documents available online, though mostly in Japanese.
e.g.
http://www.d-tech.jp/research/m_keys.html
http://www.personal-media.co.jp/utronkb/article.html?anno=2&sandbox=1
http://fsck.com/~jesse/tmp/2013-02-13/0d7dba94-ed53-456b-be5c-24aec53b088a/tron.pdf
I don’t think anyone in the western keyboard community has bought one of these. Have they even produced any, beyond prototypes? Were any commercial ones sold in Japan?
Looks to me like the high sticker price is because each keyboard is essentially a hand-made one-off, and they have no economies of scale to reduce the price.
Are you doing chorded stenography, or what? You have 10 fingers, so this means you want to have each finger pressing an average of 2.5 keys each, and still have them all register? In what kind of circumstance is that necessary?
The keyboard.io thumb keys have been moved around a few times in the last 6 months, but I think they’re finally pretty much nailed down now. I got to try their latest prototype a few days ago, and it’s pretty nice. They are planning to launch a kickstart campaign sometime real soon.
My guess is they’ll run their campaign in about 4–8 weeks, and then it’ll take another 6 months or something to actually finish production and ship the keyboards out, but they’re not making firm promises about it, so that’s totally speculative on my part.
I’ve been trying to work on Ergodox-like keyboards with an improved thumb section, which I hope can be put up through MassDrop as Ergodox alternatives, see my thread here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/pvweFHp.png)
That’s also not likely to happen for at least a few months though. New MassDrop keyboards won’t come fully assembled, but they will have all the surface-mount stuff pre-soldered, so it’s only the switches that need to be soldered in, which should make it a bit faster and easier (or cheaper to contract full assembly out to someone in the community).
Ok, thanks, that clears up somethings about the design and layout choice.
Ok, thanks, that clears up somethings about the design and layout choice.
There's also a lot on his blog about the design. here's (http://shiki.esrille.com/2013_10_01_archive.html) a post where he shows the keys overlayed on a TECK.
Despite how expensive it is to import, I'm pretty interested in the Esrille (http://www.esrille.com/keyboard/index.html). I wanted to know if anyone here had any experience with one. I'm interested in keyboards with this sort of thumb cluster as opposed to the one the Ergodox. The Diverge also caught my attention, but that seems a little more risky and I don't think it's currently for sale?
I was wondering hitting those thumb keys with your thumb does that feel weird? Them being normal keys (as far as I can tell).
And what about the positioning of the thumb keys ? The ones under the palm of your hand look weird, hitting shift for instance.
Can you switch out the keys ? Moving around the function keys for instance or using Colemak as a layout? You can't really do that on the TEK :(
What are the options firmware wise, can you flash it like you can do the TEK ?website says you can.
And if so can you do combo's like CTRL+C ? (Withouth using the FN modifier)
Any chance you could up a vid on YouTube too??
I really like my TEK but I do feel like something is missing, this Esrille does look like it hits the spot, if it wasn't so darn expensive I might have ordered it already :P
I find the thumb keys very comfortable. The only two that require me to move my fingers off the home row are the fn key and the Windows key, but I don't really mind that. If I'm using either of those keys, I'm probably not e.g. mid sentence, so moving my hand an inch or so doesn't mess with my flow.
The position of shift is actually my favorite of any board I've used. With my fingers on the home row and my hand in a relaxed/neutral position, my thumb is right above space and shift (or backspace and shift on the left half). But if you're taller I can imagine it might be better if they were further away.
I'm a QWERTY guy, so I can't speak from experience regarding Colemak, but I know the firmware has built-in support for both it and Dvorak. You also get a choice of key caps when you order (QWERTY, Dvorak, or Colemak, if I remember correctly).
I also received some extra key caps with my kit to support moving modifier keys to places with different sizes, although I can't say for sure whether that's still the case.
Do you mean having a single non-modified key that's equivalent to pressing Ctrl-C? If so, I'm 99% it is possible but haven't done it myself. Let me know if that is what you had in mind and I'll try to provide a definitive answer.
Yeah, I'll try to make a quick video this weekend. Speaking of which, I'll only be at a computer sporadically between now and Friday, so my replies may be a couple days delayed.Cool, no rush !
Regarding the cost, it's definitely true that it's more expensive than a TEK or an ErgoDox kit. However, the keyboard is pretty central to how I go about both my work and my play - programming and computers generally are central to both. So the way I look at it is that a long-lived improvement in comfort and/or productivity is well worth $500, without even considering the fact that avoiding RSI may extend my career or prevent a surgery later.
Yeah i said Colemak as an example. On the TEK the keys have different inclinations and heights and so its not possible to switch them around without it feeling weird to the fingers. Are all the keys the same size/dimension?
It is inconceivable that they wouldn't know that differences in elbow/table height greatly changes the resting angle of the wrist.. which requires adjustable tenting.. The only advantage to 1 piece, is because people might think 2 pieces would be too weird, and lower adoption.. I could not see any advantage to being 1 piece after they put the efforts in to design all the other ergonomic features.. At WORST, i think they might've just copied keydoards like the Truelyergonomic, and added tenting..
I'm also interested in the keyboard.io but less sure of the thumb keys. Have the dimensions been decided on? The Esrille has a real size print out, which is nice. Is there a good reason to wait for the keyboardio (besides price)?
My personal opinion is that nearly everyone would be well served by a tent angle of 30–45° in my personal opinion, and it’s not totally necessary for it to be adjustable as long as the angle is at least 30°.Apparently, the designers of the TRON keyboard tried 45° but did not choose it.
My personal opinion is that nearly everyone would be well served by a tent angle of 30–45° in my personal opinion, and it’s not totally necessary for it to be adjustable as long as the angle is at least 30°.
Apparently, the designers of the TRON keyboard tried 45° but did not choose it.Where is this image from? Google reverse image search and tineye don’t find any other copies.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/sFFpYM6.jpg)
Where is this image from? Google reverse image search and tineye don�t find any other copies.I'm sorry I don't remember the web site. It was a photo of a display in a computer museum in Japan. The caption said that it was a prototype.
The standard keyboard creates several biomechanical problems for the operator. First, the hands tend to be ulnarly deviated up to 40° (mean values of 25°; Smutz et al., 1994) placing additional loading on the carpal tunnel and increasing the pressure within the tunnel as much as 13% (Werner et al., 1997). Second, to obtain a flat palm, the forearm tends to be pronated close to the anatomical limit (mean values of 76°), which requires the activation of the forearm muscles (mainly pronator teres and pronator quadratus). Such tension over extended time periods can also lead to muscular fatigue. Third, to compensate for this tension, there is a tendency for operators to lift the upper arms laterally and forward, which requires the activation of the shoulder muscles (primarily the deltoid and teres minor). Again, static tension may lead to fatigue. Fourth, depending on the height and slope of the keyboard, there is a tendency for the wrists to be extended up to 50° (mean values of 23°; Serina et al., 1999). Of all the possible wrist deviations, this wrist extension may be the most critical with carpal tunnel pressures increasing to 63 mmHg (for fingertip forces of 6 N), considerably above 30 mmHg, the threshold level for potential injury (Rempel et al., 1997).
Such problems at a typewriter keyboard were noticed as early as 1926 by Klockenberg, who proposed that the keyboard be split into two halves, each angled 15° from the center line (Figure 10.21, included angle is 30°), as well as tilted laterally down (sometimes termed tented). Furthermore, Klockenberg (1926) suggested an arching of the key rows for each half of the keyboard to better configure with the natural layout of the fingers. The lateral tilting was more specifically examined by Creamer and Trumbo (1960) with a mechanical typewriter cut into two halves and tilted at five different angles. Keying at the middle position of 44° was 5% significantly faster than at the extremes of 0° (flat) or 88° (nearly vertical). Kroemer (1964, 1965, 1972) performed a more detailed analysis by varying also the upper arm position and found that the subjects preferred a similar hand orientation of 40° for the upper arms hanging down naturally. Although the subjects preferred typing on a split and tilted keyboard over a standard keyboard, typing speed did not show any differences. Error rates, however, decreased by 39%.
Further experimentation by Zipp et al. (1981, 1983) using EMG measurements of the shoulder, arm, and hand muscle indicated optimal ranges of 0 to 60° for pronation and 0 to 15° for ulnar deviation, with the standard position for keyboards of 90° pronation and 20 to 25° ulnar deviation clearly beyond the optimal range. A 13° angulation from the centerline (26° included angle) showed lower EMG than a 26° angulation. In addition, preferred lateral tilt angles of 10 to 20° were smaller than the 44° found by Kroemer (1964, 1965, 1972). Because only three subjects had been utilized in the above experiments, Nakaseko et al. (1985) performed further testing on 20 experienced typists and found similar results with subjective preferences, which led to the first commercial split model standardized at a 25° split (internal angle), a 10° lateral tilt, and a 10° horizontal tilt (far edge higher) (Buesen, 1984). Since then, several other split or tilted models have been introduced and evaluated scientifically to provide better hand and wrist postures (Gerard et al., 1994; Tittiranonda et al., 1999; Zecevic et al., 2000).
Here’s what Freivald’s book Biomechanics of the Upper Limbs (page 506–507) has to say about this subject:Quote...
By the way, angelic_sedition, would you mind adding a picture to your first post, in case people don’t want to click through to the Esrille site?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/k2CMtrT.jpg)
By the way, angelic_sedition, would you mind adding a picture to your first post, in case people don’t want to click through to the Esrille site?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/k2CMtrT.jpg)
The lack of space bar disturbs me. I don't think I could learn to type on it in a reasonable amount of time.
I'm curious about the tenting though. When I was designing my keyboards, I found it better to have the tenting plane follow the angle of the orientation of the keys.This depends a lot on where you plan to position your keyboard relative to your body. The two ways of tenting you’re talking about can be made equivalent by just tilting the keyboard forward/backward.