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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: jamster on Wed, 04 February 2015, 23:06:26

Title: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: jamster on Wed, 04 February 2015, 23:06:26: Most computer users use full size boards, and on Geekhack TKL and 60-75% boards seem to be popular.

I'm curious though as to why the compressed form of board that includes the numberpad isn't more popular- they give you a number pad and arrow keys, but are almost as narrow as the normal TKL layout.

Having recently switched to a TKL, I do like the narrower footprint but at the same time do find myself missing a dedicated numberpad.

Why is compact TK so rare? I've seen one Cherry 18xx, there are a handful listed on a Reddit wiki, and one in a current GB.

(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=67398.0;attach=86557;image)

I'm not sure if "compact TK" is the common term, but it's what I found in this Reddit description:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/tenkeyless_keyboards#wiki_compact__with_numpads_mechanical_keyboards_-_90.25_-_tk_compressed_layout_.28coolermaster_calls_tk_but_this_does_not_mean_team_kill.21.29
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: Defect on Wed, 04 February 2015, 23:10:27: I've had issues in Excel where alt + numpad (regardless if numlock was on) would cause it to input alt codes (http://www.alt-codes.net/).

That would be my reason. Also I guess most people are used to inverse T arrow clusters rather than +.

They seem to be gaining in popularity though.
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 04 February 2015, 23:12:30: Quote from: jamster on Wed, 04 February 2015, 23:06:26
Most computer users use full size boards, and on Geekhack TKL and 60-75% boards seem to be popular.

I'm curious though as to why the compressed form of board that includes the numberpad isn't more popular- they give you a number pad and arrow keys, but are almost as narrow as the normal TKL layout.

Having recently switched to a TKL, I do like the narrower footprint but at the same time do find myself missing a dedicated numberpad.

Why is compact TK so rare? I've seen one Cherry 18xx, there are a handful listed on a Reddit wiki, and one in a current GB.

Show Image
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=67398.0;attach=86557;image)

I'm not sure if "compact TK" is the common term, but it's what I found in this Reddit description:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/tenkeyless_keyboards#wiki_compact__with_numpads_mechanical_keyboards_-_90.25_-_tk_compressed_layout_.28coolermaster_calls_tk_but_this_does_not_mean_team_kill.21.29

This base idea for a layout isn't that rare, Cooler Master makes one. I believe it is the Quick Fire TK. Also, the Lightsaver is the same base layout.
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: neverused on Wed, 04 February 2015, 23:12:55: There's the Cooler Master CM Storm QuickFire TK
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: jamster on Wed, 04 February 2015, 23:56:32: Oh, I'm aware of the CM already, just wondering why straight TKL or even the 60-65 formats seem more popular.

Especially TKL I guess, given that the compact TK format is about the same size.
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: demik on Thu, 05 February 2015, 00:21:18: i personally find it ugly and the fact everything is bunched up seems annoying, like it'll be too easy to hit a key on accident, since they are literally right next to each other. i'd rather do 60% or tkl with a keypad on the left
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: Fragil1ty on Thu, 05 February 2015, 00:42:24: I just don't find it that appealing personally.

I don't miss the numpad though, so it's not something that I think about on a regular basis and what not.
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 05 February 2015, 00:50:45: I actually like the idea of the layout. Here is how I have my IBM F AT setup. (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@=Insert&=Delete&_x:0.5%3B&=Esc&=F1%0A1&=F2%0A2&=F3%0A3&=F4%0A4&=F5%0A5&=F6%0A6&=F7%0A7&=F8%0A8&=F9%0A9&=F10%0A0&=F11%0A-&=F12%0A%2F=&_w:2%3B&=Backspace&_x:0.5%3B&=7%0AHome&=8%0A%E2%86%91&=9%0APgUp&=Num%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0ALock%3B&@=Home&=End&_x:0.5&w:1.5%3B&=Tab&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&=%7B%0A%5B&=%7D%0A%5D&_w:1.5%3B&=%7C%0A%5C&_x:0.5%3B&=4%0A%E2%86%90&=5&=6%0A%E2%86%92&=%2F%2F%3B&@=PgUp&=PgDn&_x:0.5&w:1.75%3B&=Ctrl&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&=%2F:%0A%2F%3B&=%22%0A'&_w:2.25%3B&=Enter&_x:0.5%3B&=1%0AEnd&=2%0A%E2%86%93&=3%0APgDn&=*%3B&@=Vol%20+&=Vol%20-&_x:0.5&w:2.25%3B&=Shift&=Z&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&=M&=%3C%0A,&=%3E%0A.&=%3F%0A%2F%2F&_w:2.75%3B&=Shift&_x:0.5%3B&=0%0AIns&=%E2%86%91&=.%0ADel&=-%3B&@=PrtSc&=Fn&_x:0.5&w:1.5%3B&=Caps%20Lock%0AAlt&_x:1&w:10%3B&=&_x:1&w:1.5%3B&=Win&_x:0.5%3B&=%E2%86%90&=%E2%86%93&=%E2%86%92&=+)
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: SonOfSonOfSpock on Thu, 05 February 2015, 01:08:49: Same as demik. The lack of spacing would cause problems.
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: Nai_Calus on Thu, 05 February 2015, 01:12:34: For me it's that they're hard to find and the easiest one to come by has a non-standard bottom row, which I'm against since I can't put pretty keycaps on it.

Even then, they're kind of fugly. I'd rather just have a full-size, or if I'm going to be missing keys anyway, go whole hog and have a 60%.

There's also a muscle memory thing. I'd never buy a TKL but I'd be able to use it. I could use a poker without issue. Trying to use something like the CM TK would screw me up so bad because everything would be in the wrong place.
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: bueller on Thu, 05 February 2015, 01:15:19: Quote from: demik on Thu, 05 February 2015, 00:21:18
i personally find it ugly and the fact everything is bunched up seems annoying, like it'll be too easy to hit a key on accident, since they are literally right next to each other. i'd rather do 60% or tkl with a keypad on the left

This is my problem. I used to have a laptop that had a keypad on the right next to the enter key and I'd be forever hitting the wrong key when I was looking for backspace or enter. Really annoying.

Just looks like balls as well. If I could get a TKL with the nav buttons cut off that would be perfect.
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: daerid on Thu, 05 February 2015, 01:37:38: I actually don't like the numpad for general computing (but then I don't work in Excel all day).
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 05 February 2015, 01:53:58: An embedded numpad on a layer is more useful for me than a physically separate numpad (either as part of a large keyboard or as a separate unit).

I’d recommend something like:
(http://i.imgur.com/CPrKtmj.png)
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: Dihedral on Thu, 05 February 2015, 02:01:02: I call this type of layout a MTK (Merged Ten Key) layout. I really like it and am using it in my Dihedral 79 build (link in signature)
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: bueller on Thu, 05 February 2015, 02:07:04: Quote from: jacobolus on Thu, 05 February 2015, 01:53:58
An embedded numpad on a layer is more useful for me than a physically separate numpad (either as part of a large keyboard or as a separate unit).

I�d recommend something like:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/CPrKtmj.png)

Programming layers aside that physical layout is my end-game.
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: byker on Thu, 05 February 2015, 02:10:49: I actually quite like the look of lightsavers/redscarfs. I am waiting for a redscarf III from Ivan's group buy and then I guess I will see how different the layout is. I don't think it will take too long to get used to though!
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 05 February 2015, 02:26:13: I never use numpad, so that's one reason I don't care for them.

Another reason is you don't have the space between functional areas of the board, so you can't "index" them easily, can't find them by touch like with a TKL.

Yet another reason is the lack of standard placement / distance between areas, so for instance trying to hit "Home" while using the arrow cluster will end up in "Backspace" getting pressed. If you use thumb for "0" on the numpad, you'll hit right arrow.

It's just far too much of a compromise, IMHO, with the "benefit" of compact size far outweighed by the downsides.
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: suicidal_orange on Thu, 05 February 2015, 02:27:31: There are certain keys that have to be easily findable - backspace, page up/down, enter, and arrows included (for navigation) As soon as I have to move my hand from the home position there needs to be some reference point to find these keys and there isn't one for the arrows or backspace in this layout. I guess I could use it with taller caps on the arrows but backspace would need to stay normal for use when typing.

But really, if you're going that big why not just get a fullsize? Desk space is cheap :))
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 05 February 2015, 03:31:26: They just look odd to me.

That, plus the lack of spacing between the keys.
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: Sagii on Thu, 05 February 2015, 03:48:06: Being completely honest, I think it's ugly.. I gotta admit, that's one of the main reasons :)) I also don't have practical use for the numpad, so I'd rather have the navcluster + arrowkeys that I think looks prettier. (Personal opinion, obviously)
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: flaming_june on Thu, 05 February 2015, 12:14:58: Well my first mechanical was the 80% Irocks mx browns. That was one of the best I've used. Too bad they can't be found.

I think it's due to three things, availability, aesthetics and function. People like how TKL looks. Previously 80% keyboards weren't readily available as now. Some people just don't need dedicated numpad and like slimmer the better for better posture.

Quote from: jacobolus on Thu, 05 February 2015, 01:53:58
An embedded numpad on a layer is more useful for me than a physically separate numpad (either as part of a large keyboard or as a separate unit).

I�d recommend something like:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/CPrKtmj.png)

I like this a lot.
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 05 February 2015, 14:55:27: I use to alternate between a Cherry G80-18xx and TKLs. I have got quite used to using the numpad-arrows and nav keys, but I would also much like to have an extra arrow-down on numpad-5.

However, there is one big issue: Most programs don't treat the numpad keys the same was as separate arrow and nav keys in key combinations. For instance, you can't use Shift-<arrow> to mark text ... and that is quite a fundamental operation.
That means that you still need separate arrow keys to do text editing.
The Quickfire TK does offer a regular arrow/nav layout though.
Title: Re: Why are compact TK boards so unpopular?
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 05 February 2015, 15:14:56: Quote from: Findecanor on Thu, 05 February 2015, 14:55:27
However, there is one big issue: Most programs don't treat the numpad keys the same was as separate arrow and nav keys in key combinations. For instance, you can't use Shift-<arrow> to mark text ...
The whole input device software stack sucks, doesn’t it? (Especially bad on Windows IMO, but OS X and Linux also have severe problems.)

This is why the keyboard needs programmable firmware. Then you can properly send the key codes for regular arrow and nav key presses from the hardware, instead of leaving it to some arbitrary layer of the software stack to figure out.