geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: AndrewZorn on Wed, 19 August 2009, 18:29:41
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I've been trying to decide for months now... whether or not I need one as well as which one. I am certain I want one now, but no amount of lurking seems to help, and I have read SO many reviews. I have not even owned a mechanical keyboard, but have typed on some to a small extent... I really am in it for the prospect of a QUALITY keyboard, as I'm not yet attached to the feel.
I am not looking for a noisy keyboard. To demand that a mechanical one be SILENT is unrealistic... I just do not desire one with a mechanism built around the idea of making noise. I know it might be taboo, but I don't want audible feedback when typing. I also get annoyed with others' noisy hobbies when I have to live with them every day (no offense) and don't want to be hypocritical.
60 vs 87 vs 103+ keys... Can't decide, maybe you can help. Right now I own... gasp... a classic G15. I know. I bought it unenlightened. While I initially loved the 2ft wide "control station" of keys (and do still like the way it SHOULD be awesome), I know: I have never used the macro keys, and I've weaned myself from media keys before. I almost never use the F* keys (why can't I give these up instead of my...). NUMBER PAD... almost never use it, but cannot imagine giving it up! This is probably the biggest issue right now. Arrows and Home/Ins/etc get used but can belong anywhere.
From the above you may have guessed my intended uses. Vast majority of typing is plain English. I aspire to play games much more than I do, so it needs to be good there too. When I do 'code', it's at a fairly elementary level, still in college for this and it isn't yet my occupation. I don't know about using combos for everything, a la HHKB. Not sure if it matters, and it might be too soon to speak, but as of hours ago I am a possible Colemak convert (or maybe fall back on Dvorak for 'convention'). I have been typing this post, the first thing longer than a sentence or two, for over 30mins to this point. It's depressing coming from >100wpm easily (EDIT this was an overestimate)... This is one of the reasons I want blank keys, but it's not mandatory, and I would hate to actually pay MORE for them, out of principle alone.
Simply, the portability and detachable cable and overall form of the HHKB looks lovely. Will it ever leave the desk? Maybe not. Just mentioning that the HHKB appears to [subjectively] DOMINATE the non-typing aspects of the board, from what I've seen and read so far.
If I could choose the key stiffness, I would not know. I hear the differences between Blue/Black/Brown (ignoring for a moment the noise thing) but cannot make up my mind about "tactile touch" (for feedback) vs "linear" (for rapid strokes in games). What does the average membrane board come out to in pressure (numerical)?
Price is almost moot at this point. $100 now sounds cheap. With the amount of decision-making involved so far... and my ideal of keeping it for a long time (like I say for everything, rarely happens)... I'm more worried of being let down or wanting to upgrade soon. This is NOT to say I don't think $250 for a keyboard is not OUTRAGEOUS... but if I am convinced to go there, I just want there to be nothing better for me out there. I want it to feel like it cost $250. Similarly I'm tempted by the $50 scratch-and-dent "Zero" version of the Majestouch, but I think this is a totally different league... ?
Challenge mode: I cannot swing by a store to try them out, I am in Iraq and will be for a while. Even back home I cannot imagine a place nearby that would have such things.
Thanks for any advice beforehand.
~1hr to type... wow...
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Get a HHKB and a Filco with Cherry Browns and get it over with. All this pondering and typing..
If you don't like one of them, sell it as almost new.
That's the problem with keyboards, you want one, then you want another. I should have just stopped at the Scorpius M10...but no, I had to get this keyboard and that keyboard.
If you absolutely have no idea what you want, search ebay for the $20 New in Box Dell AT101Ws, get one, and go from there. It's cheap, and not that much financial burden, especially in comparison to a Filco-brand keyboard, or a Topre-switch keyboard.
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The hhkb is a sweet little board. I'm tempted to get one myself. I like the filco blue a lot, but it's not really doing it for me at work. I love typing on it and the tactile feedback, but for programming it's causing some hand soreness from pressing modifiers a lot. I don't find the bottom row keys comfortable - I'm getting a bit of a blister on my thumb. The topre seems like it would be better here because ESC, F keys, and such are closer to home row and the mod keys next to the spacebar look comfortable.
The realforce is the other topre keyboard, although IMHO it's not worth the money (too big, windows/menu keys, no usb hub, non-detachable cord, weighted keys).
I think I would vastly prefer using a filco for games though. N-key rollover is one reason. The tactile feedback reminds me a lot of playing with arcade buttons which are great when mashing buttons frantically. I don't think I'd like the mushiness of the topre for gaming.
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Thanks so far...
I don't want to buy both and sell one, but good idea.
I have heard of buying cheap boards like that one before, but don't understand what it accomplishes... makes me want a better one, that costs more, with different switches? Maybe I do not get the intent?
nvarsj, I've heard a similar, but not nearly so harsh description of the HHKB for games, is it that bad? Do you think NKRO is worth paying extra for? I'm trying to think of when I need to and a game supports more than a few at once. The full-size Filco actually makes you pay more for it; I thought it strange the 87 cost more than the non-NKRO 104 until realizing all 87 have NKRO.
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I noticed the HHKB was much tougher gaming on for fps'es when I switched from brown cherries, but I game fairly often nowadays (fps, rpg, rts) and I've gotten used to it.
Though, personally speaking, I'm not all that picky when it comes to gaming with certain switches, I'm so caught up in the moment it doesn't bother me that a certain switch isn't preferred for gaming
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All I can say is good luck (without sarcasm). I said good luck because your situation is not that different from most of us. I have blue cherries (current favourite), buckling spring, and black Alps, but still want to try a brown cherries and Topre. For some people it easier, they just get one and forget about it. But, if you keep reading this forum, things can get out of hand, believe me.
I've been debating for weeks now if I should get a Topre or a Filco (brown cherries) although it will put a big hole in my wallet and the money could be put to other uses.
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Each truly seems to have its merits without being 'better'... but so many like both equally...
The HUGE price difference is hard to ignore. The HHKB is starting to look like its main feature is the layout, not that the keys are really that much better...
Been leaning toward the Filco from the start, and the Browns look like the best compromise (and very popular here) if nothing else. Is there a place to order where I can get the Browns with blank caps (without of course buying them separately), or is Elite the only place? With all the other specifics I am surprised this isn't so customizeable.
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Personally I would get the HHKB Pro over a brown cherry Filco. But then again I'm a very big Topre switch fan so take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm also not a big game player either.
Brown cherry Filco - The brown cherry switch is a nice switch as long as you can train yourself to not bottom them out. When I first got mine I bottomed them out all the time. When you bottom out the switch you will get finger fatigue when you type for a long time. Once you have trained yourself to not bottom out the switch though it is a perfectly acceptable board to type on all day long without fatigue. But for me there is just something missing because the switch just feels flat to me (almost like a liner switch). And for me key bounce back is not quite there.
Topre Switch in either the HHKB Pro or a Realforce board - A very smooth switch with feel and a soft landing when bottoming out. I have never experianced finger fatigue on a Topre board even when I bottom them out which I don't do much any more. Key bounce back on this switch is one of the best if not the best out there. The key literly feels as if it is pushing your finger up on the up stroke.
HHKB Pro 2 - Great layout once you learn the keys. There is a reason this board is called the Happy Hacking Keyboard it is are really great board to write code on. But you can get a similar key layout on just about any board by remapping the keys. Build quality is very good but is lacking when compared to a Realforce board. Has a built in USB Hub and has a detachable cable.
Realforce board (86U/87U) - One of the best built boards money can buy. They have all of the extra keys you actually use. But it does not have a detachable cord or a USB hub. And you can remap the keys so that you can emulate a HHKB Pro.
So thats my opinion both the Filco with brown cherry switchs and a HHKB Pro are great boards. What it really comes down to is what you expect to do with the board. Even though both are great boards to type on when it comes time for a allday coding session the only board I use is one of my Topre boards. I don't really play games so I really can't comment on that.
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Each truly seems to have its merits without being 'better'... but so many like both equally...
The HUGE price difference is hard to ignore. The HHKB is starting to look like its main feature is the layout, not that the keys are really that much better...
Been leaning toward the Filco from the start, and the Browns look like the best compromise (and very popular here) if nothing else. Is there a place to order where I can get the Browns with blank caps (without of course buying them separately), or is Elite the only place? With all the other specifics I am surprised this isn't so customizeable.
I have yet to see the full-size Filco with blank keys, I may be wrong though.
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no, I meant the Tenkeyless just like the Otaku, which is only offered with Blue on Elite... it's odd that I can't find a Tenkeyless with Brown switches with blank caps.
rdjack, interesting info. But the HHKB not built as well as the RealForce? I haven't heard any complaints. I know we are talking about two of the best here, but still...
I like the HHKB layout for its compact size. May be only because I haven't used one, but the key combos look like something I would have to get used to to enjoy the small form factor. I guess I'm saying I like its layout as a solution to the problem (in an unoffensive way) of having fewer keys... not something I admire enough to emulate when that 'problem' isn't present.
Another thing I can't seem to figure out about the HHKB... how would using an alternate layout like Dvorak or Colemak (I'm getting better!) affect the hotkeys? I know there are different approaches and operating systems, but would the most typical methods result in arrow keys strewn about the board and whatnot?
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rdjack21 : Is the sound of your Topre as crips as in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBr9_yg-LPA
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rdjack, interesting info. But the HHKB not built as well as the RealForce? I haven't heard any complaints. I know we are talking about two of the best here, but still...
Well we are talking about an expensive keyboard so the little things matter when you compare the two. The Realforce has the keys mounted in a metal plate unlike the HHKB Pro. The plastic on the Realforce is thicker and heaver than the HHKB. The alignment of the HHKB bottom to top parts on the side of the board is off. The Realfoce is pretty close to perfect. I'm not complaining about the HHKB Pro it is a great keyboard and is very well built but the Realforce boards take it up a notch.
I like the HHKB layout for its compact size. May be only because I haven't used one, but the key combos look like something I would have to get used to to enjoy the small form factor. I guess I'm saying I like its layout as a solution to the problem (in an unoffensive way) of having fewer keys... not something I admire enough to emulate when that 'problem' isn't present.
If you decide to get one you will want to emulate it even when you do have the keys. It is very nice to have pretty much every key you need with in finger reach of the home row. And yes it does take a little time to learn where all the keys are. I'm still learning mine but I can already see the benefit of the layout and have started to remap the 86U I have at work to match the keys I have already learned.
Another thing I can't seem to figure out about the HHKB... how would using an alternate layout like Dvorak or Colemak (I'm getting better!) affect the hotkeys? I know there are different approaches and operating systems, but would the most typical methods result in arrow keys strewn about the board and whatnot?
No big deal the overlay keys are done in hardware so when you use software to remap the alpha keys for either Dvorak or Colemak (I plan on learning this one ) the overlay or Fn keys still function as they are. Unless of course you remap them with software as well. Other words when you press the Fn key then the arrow key the scan code for the arrow key gets sent to the computer. The Fn key is never seen by the computer so you can't remap it or assin new keys to it. Which is the one thing I wish you could do on the HHKB Pro.
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The debate between getting a Topre and a Filco is temporarily over for me. I just bough a FKB104M/EB five minutes ago.
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rdjack21 : Is the sound of your Topre as crips as in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBr9_yg-LPA
Yep that is the sound they make. It should be noted though that the Realforce boards are even quiter. The current theory is that this is due to the way the keys are mounted. In the Realforce they are plate mounted which dulls or quietens the sound. They also feel slightly different as well but not by much.
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The debate between getting a Topre and a Filco is temporarily over for me. I just bough a FKB104M/EB five minutes ago.
For now at least. I see you went with the Cherry browns which are very nice switches and I have no qualms about recommending them to people. Just make sure you type on it for a while before you make up your mind how you feel about them.
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and until just now I thought typing on a RF and HHKB were the same. The metal plate is the most intriguing detail.
What made you change your mind, patrick?
I had almost completely changed my mind to the HHKB, but after rdjack's post, I am less enthused...
It's as if since the HHKB isn't the best, it's hard to pay MORE for less when compared to the RealForce. The 87U is sold out, but come on, the 103U is $25 less than a board with nearly half the same keys.
It seems you really are paying for a layout???
I am going to have to take a break, I've been hawking this forum all day and rdjack just brought me from indecision to confidence to disappointment...
WOW, KEYBOARDS
EDIT and then, with the novelty of the HHKB gone and the RF in its place, is $100 separating only the Topre from Cherry switches in the Filco?
I think I just answered my own question, but I don't want it to be true NOW...
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For now at least. I see you went with the Cherry browns which are very nice switches and I have no qualms about recommending them to people. Just make sure you type on it for a while before you make up your mind how you feel about them.
Yes for now :-) I will definitely use it for a while before make up my mind.
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and until just now I thought typing on a RF and HHKB were the same. The metal plate is the most intriguing detail.
What made you change your mind, patrick?
I had almost completely changed my mind to the HHKB, but after rdjack's post, I am less enthused...
It's as if since the HHKB isn't the best, it's hard to pay MORE for less when compared to the RealForce. The 87U is sold out, but come on, the 103U is $25 less than a board with nearly half the same keys.
It seems you really are paying for a layout???
I am going to have to take a break, I've been hawking this forum all day and rdjack just brought me from indecision to confidence to disappointment...
WOW, KEYBOARDS
I did not really changed my mind. I have been debating between the two. But, financially, I could not get both at the same time. I like the Cherry switches, and since I know what a Cherry switch feels like, I figured out, the MX Brown was the way to go for me.
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I had almost completely changed my mind to the HHKB, but after rdjack's post, I am less enthused...
It's as if since the HHKB isn't the best, it's hard to pay MORE for less when compared to the RealForce. The 87U is sold out, but come on, the 103U is $25 less than a board with nearly half the same keys.
It seems you really are paying for a layout???
Hey no blaming me man.... I'm just trying to tell you how it is. I love both the HHKB Pro 2 and the 87U/86U each in there own way. Both are of higher quality than most every board out there today. I'm just nit picking on the HHKB Pro when I compaired them.
I agree with what webwit said earler in the thead if you can afford it get them both. I can almost gurantee that the way you are agonizing over this no matter which one you choose you will end up getting the other one anyways just so you can compair them. I personally prefer the Topre switch over the cherries but other people that have tried both prefer the cherries but no matter which one we prefer we all tend to agree that both are good and end up having both of them.
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no, I meant the Tenkeyless just like the Otaku, which is only offered with Blue on Elite... it's odd that I can't find a Tenkeyless with Brown switches with blank caps.
elitekeyboards used to sell the otaku with Cherry browns. I know because I'm typing this message on it. I checked the website and I don't see it. Maybe it's not available anymore. It looks like the one with cherry blue and regular keycaps was removed from the site as well.
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When I joined the forum, I was in a similar situation debating between a Realforce 101 and Filco FKBN87M/EB. I wanted to buy the one end all keyboard, so I bought the Realforce first, but of course the only end all solution is to have them all.
As for the HHKB, to be honest, if it wasn't for the fact that I don't want to use my uni's gross Dell keyboards, I would sell it for another Realforce in a heartbeat.
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I wanted to buy the one end all keyboard
I wonder if there are any plans for a HHKB3? One that can emulate ALL the keys on a full-sized keyboard, with a more conventional arrow layout, and maybe (please, please, please) fully programmable. That would be "The One" for me.
They don't seem particularly bothered about improving on HHKB2, so I won't hold my breath.
I'll pin my hopes on Lowpoly's Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4917&do=comments&page=25).
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I've been in the same situation.
I bought a Filco tenkeyless with browns. Not because I wouldn't like the HHKB Pro 2.
The main thing for me is, that I use the arrow-keys quite often and arrow-keys via FN? WTF? I'll definetly get a HHKB someday, but the Filco seemed more solid, less experimentive to me. So I started with a sure thing for a solid base and get the "weird" things later to experiment with.^^
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no, I meant the Tenkeyless just like the Otaku, which is only offered with Blue on Elite... it's odd that I can't find a Tenkeyless with Brown switches with blank caps.
They used to sell them... Obviously demand wasnt high enough to reorder them (the blank ones were originally a limited edition) but in the accessories section of Elitekeyboards, you'll find that they sell seperate blank keycaps for about $30 (I think)
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The main thing for me is, that I use the arrow-keys quite often and arrow-keys via FN? WTF? I'll definetly get a HHKB someday, but the Filco seemed more solid, less experimentive to me. So I started with a sure thing for a solid base and get the "weird" things later to experiment with.^^
Quite frankly, I only use the arrow keys when I want to scroll one-handed.
Having cursor keys using an Fn key can be a great idea. I'm currently trying a custom extension to the Colemak layout which adds cursor keys to the IJKL keys. This way, I can scroll without leaving the home row - quite effective if you can find a good Fn key position. My experiments with using the space bar as an Fn key have worked moderately okay thus far.
As such, the HHKB layout does not appeal to me.
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Quite frankly, I only use the arrow keys when I want to scroll one-handed.
*coughs*
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Sigh... Do I really need to add "with all hands above the table" when I write such a thing?
All this Wang jokes are getting old.
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Why don't you buy one of the full-sizes Realforce keyboards? You obviously don't want clicky boards, so white Alps, blue MX and buckling springs are out. Brown Alps, black MX, brown MX, red MX, clear MX and Topre remain.
Shipping cost to your location is quite expensive (I suppose), so there's no incentive to getting a keyboard for $20 that's regarded as nice (for the price), like the AT101W. It'll be too expensive to still be worth it.
Not it depends on your required force and the noise level you deem acceptable.
Use this as a slight hint:
noise low ............................... high
force
low Topre red MX
.
. brown MX
.
. clear MX
. black MX
high
Entirely subjective and not to scale.
If you're sensitive to noise and prefer a light touch, get the Topre. The full-sized version is the least expensive, so go for it, unless you really need a small keyboard.
-huha
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Huha, on your graph, the red and brown MX should be the same force. And I think all of the MX are the same noise level (except for the blues, of course). The tactile bumps don't add anything to the noise level.
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The layout of the HHKB is indeed nice. In fact, the layout is what initially convinced me of looking at an HHKB. And because I couldn't go with a standard rubber dome (HHKB Lite), I went with a rubber dome+spring instead :P
I've been driving the HHKB exclusively for the past three months, and I'd say it's only drawback after adapting to the layout, is now it's tough to use other keyboards.
It just 'feels' more like a typist keyboard. Cleaning is a cinch. No annoying stabilizers getting in the way, and no need to clean 'around' switches. The sound is great, the quiet chunky "thock thock" soft landing. And it feels like serious business when I sit in front of it. I've also learned to love the crisp "collapse" of a Topre switch. Something that, even switching to my g80-3000, makes the blue cherries feel "sloppy" on it's registration.
Adjusting to a layout shouldn't scare anyone. Use it exclusively for about a month, and you will have trained your muscle memory to depress Fn with your pinky and relax your fingers onto the arrow keys. I use Photoshop on a daily basis, and code websites a few times a week. The arrow thing quickly becomes non issue (and you learn to embrace it)
Oh and opinions are like *******s. Everyone's got one, and they all think everybody elses stinks.
Edit: thought I would add, the metal plate in the RF is an important factor. This is my guess as to what separates the RF to the HHKB in terms of quality (reading lam47's rf/hhkb review way back). I'll agree the weight of the HHKB is a little bit disconcerting at first. I thought "I paid $250 for this??? It's like a little toy". But it's very portable, the switches are great, and the accessibility just "feels" like it's gone through a lot of work and concepts. It's the combination of all these things that make an HHKB. If it's just the switches you're interested in, get a RF - if you want a very different layout that adopts the idea of never leaving the home row, get an HHKB.
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Also, sorry not contributing much to the Filco. I had a full size brown cherry NKRO, and sold it lol. Not because I didn't like it...but because I never used it compared to the HHKB. (just recently sold it actually). After buying the HHKB, I loaned out my Filco. My brother loved it, and then I had him pass it onto a colleague of his and mine, and he loved it. So much, that he wanted to own it, so I sold it :) Honestly I didn't feel too "attached" the board. It was heavier, and I really like brown cherries, but it didn't have a ton of personality in the switch. At least the blues have that gimmicky 'click click' sound =P
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nvarsj, I've heard a similar, but not nearly so harsh description of the HHKB for games, is it that bad? Do you think NKRO is worth paying extra for? I'm trying to think of when I need to and a game supports more than a few at once. The full-size Filco actually makes you pay more for it; I thought it strange the 87 cost more than the non-NKRO 104 until realizing all 87 have NKRO.
I've never used the hhkb so take my opinions with a grain of salt. :-) It just seems that way to me - the Filco is so much nicer for gaming than any membrane I've ever used. And the hhkb is basically a very nice membrane.
Also, not sure if I'd want to game on a $250 keyboard. I get pretty rough on my poor lil' keys when playing FPSs.
My consternation now is whether to get a black or a white HHKB. I've been agonizing over that for a day now... For some people it's what they're gonna wear, for me its the keyboard. If only I could buy both. I'm leaning towards the white/gray hhkb.
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I think I would vastly prefer using a filco for games though. N-key rollover is one reason.
Isn't the HHKB Pro fully NKRO because of the capacitive switches?
if you want a very different layout that adopts the idea of never leaving the home row, get an HHKB.
Until you need the arrow keys when you do need to leave the home position. The layout can be improved, it really can.
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Isn't the HHKB Pro fully NKRO because of the capacitive switches?
I thought nkro was determined by the keyboard controller logic, not the switches. So I assume a keyboard is not nkro unless it explicitly states otherwise. Maybe the topre design necessitates nkro? I haven't seen anything definitive on it - it's a good question.
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According to the this article (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6456), the topres are _not_ nkro but instead are 6-key.
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Thanks for the replies again.
I wasn't really blaming anyone, just disappointed with the fact that still remains...
Unless you really want the small size (and I cannot say that I don't...) why not get the CHEAPER, STRONGER Realforce, and if desired, emulate the HHKB layout?
Does the full-size RF have any secret shortcomings, or is it just as nice inside and out as the 87U (which is OOS but will be back)? While I have decided I don't need a numpad, I don't think I could support the practice of shelling out more for its absence (all else being the same).
EDIT and the mini-mod is so great, wow, I saw your avatar but didn't think it was real.
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I've really been surprised that elitekeyboards has not started to carry the 86U now that you can't get the 87U. They are basically the same boards with the exceptions being color and the in key LED's. You can get the 86U from Japan but that does increase the cost considerably. BeNippon Pricing on the Realforce boards is considerably higher than elitekeyboards. For example:
103U - $284, 103UB - $270, 86U - $259, HHKB Pro 2 - $291 -> $297 depending on options and you have to add around $50 for shipping from Japan.
So what ever you decide get it from elitekeyboards if you can because they are cheaper. But those BeNippon prices makes me wonder if the 86U would be cheaper than the 103U if they carried it. You may want to send them a email and see if they can get it for you and what the price would be.
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I believe a capacitive F is N-key Rollover as well - the ULTIMATE GAMING BOARD. If you lose with the F at Lan party you just walk over and take your opponent out with a swing of the keyboard.
There is just one issue here: the buckling springs in the F have some hysteresis which in turn makes button mashing harder.
I haven't tested it with a game though - in fact, my XT-to-USB converter is nowhere near started.
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Isn't the HHKB Pro fully NKRO because of the capacitive switches?
Until you need the arrow keys when you do need to leave the home position. The layout can be improved, it really can.
This is true. Unless you have really big hands, you're stretching your palm out to reach Fn as well as keeping a finger J, but it's still a much better approach then having to move beyond the enter key to hit arrows. I should have worded that as "staying close to your home row" , because eventually you'll leave it just to reach some keys (tilde in the hhkb is another example of this)
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There is just one issue here: the buckling springs in the F have some hysteresis which in turn makes button mashing harder.
I haven't tested it with a game though - in fact, my XT-to-USB converter is nowhere near started.
Any key mechanism has hysteresis...
I find that the F is one of the easiest key mechanisms to "button mash." Especially with the spring-back, I've found the Model F is quite good for button mashing, and quick switching.
Regular rubber domes, Cherry and ALPS switches (especially due to the leaf springs), and (I'd presume) Topre switches have higher hysteresis than a buckling spring mechanism.
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Regular rubber domes, Cherry and ALPS switches (especially due to the leaf springs), and (I'd presume) Topre switches have higher hysteresis than a buckling spring mechanism.
I'm sorry to join in, but that's simply not true. Buckling springs have a huge dead zone, whereas MX blues, for example, can be retriggered almost right away (although without the tactility, so that's not quite as planned).
-huha
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MX blues, for example, can be retriggered almost right away (although without the tactility, so that's not quite as planned).
Hmm. I wonder if that's due to two-piece construction of the slider. The browns have to be let back up above the tactile bump to retrigger.
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I would think that in either case the ridges on the plunger will break the contact when you go back up. Sure, the force displacement diagrams may show that the tactile point moves around but the actuation point should remain the same in case of the browns. Or do the browns somehow "catch" some part instead of just guiding the switch contacts? (This calls for a real Cherry switch model!)
The thing with buckling springs is that the spring pushes the hammer down and hence until the spring "debuckles", you can't generate a new keypress. In this case, you need to lift your fingers whereas a rubber dome or Cherry switch allows you to lift your finger until the contact opens and just press down again.
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Isn't the USB-Port restricting to 6-key rollover?
The Filcos have to be used with PS/2 to gain nkro.
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Isn't the USB-Port restricting to 6-key rollover?
Unless the device has a specially-written driver for it, yes. The HID driver is the limitation, though, not the USB port itself. USB can handle the data.
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Until you need the arrow keys when you do need to leave the home position. The layout can be improved, it really can.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but couldn't you just Fn with your left thumb and arrow with your right pinky so you don't have to leave homerow? That's how I've been using my HHKB.
According to the this article (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6456), the topres are _not_ nkro but instead are 6-key.
Say that to my Realforce 101.
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but couldn't you just Fn with your left thumb and arrow with your right pinky so you don't have to leave homerow? That's how I've been using my HHKB.
Ah, yes, I forgot you can redefine the left command key as a Fn key.
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You should get a Model M. That's the best keyboard out there.
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I guess I need to read that NKR thread and see if I'm doing things correctly but on Linux both my HHKB Pro and my 86U register all 12 keys when I press them using a new number 2 pencil sitting on top of the home row. Same goes for all the rows I tried this on. I'm probobly doing something wrong so I will go over to that NKR thread and see if I can find the proper way to test this.
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You should get a Model M. That's the best keyboard out there.
I think "best" when it comes to keyboard is a very loose concept :-) What is best for one may not be for someone else. I am currently typing this comment on my Customizer (second computer) after having type few hundred words on my Cherry. I find the buckling springs to be a bit too hard to press even though I appreciate the sound and the crisp feel of the keys.
Some prefer light keys and some prefer heavier keys like the BS.
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both my HHKB Pro and my 86U register all 12 keys when I press them using a new number 2 pencil sitting on top of the home row. Same goes for all the rows I tried this on. I'm probobly doing something wrong so I will go over to that NKR thread and see if I can find the proper way to test this.
There's a rollover test page (http://random.xem.us/rollover.html) mentioned in the wiki (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Do+I+need+N-key+rollover%3F).
The Topre boards handle the USB limit differently than other boards I've tried: when connected by USB, they generate key release events when you press and hold the seventh and subsequent keys.
If I press and hold, in sequence, A S D F G H J K L, I get key press events for ths first six, the pressing the J causes a release event for the A just before the press for the J, pressing K sends a release for S, etc.
This differs from the NKRO Filcos, for example, where holding down six keys causes any others to be ignored until after one of the first six is released.
(I don't have a machine at home with a native PS/2 interface, so I can't test the PS/2 side of things at the moment.)
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I've been trying to decide for months now... whether or not I need one as well as which one. I am certain I want one now, but no amount of lurking seems to help, and I have read SO many reviews.
I am a diehard fan of of the orginal IBM PC AT 84-key keyboards. They use buckling spring over capacitive contact key switches and none of the dozens of keyboards I've acquired over the past 8 months have surpassed the PC AT keyboard typing experience.
I just received a Happy Hacking Professional 2 and Topre Realforce 23UB keypad from Elite Keyboards today. They are expensive, but excellent examples of "modern" keyboard technology. I'm using my HH keyboard to type this reply.
I have 7 NIB Chicony KB-5181 keyboards and I would be willing to part with one if you are looking for an inexpensive mechanical keyboard to try.
The KB-5181 uses SMK Monterey key switches which are light and clicky. More crisp than a Model M, but not as loud, with less force required for the key presses. I personally prefer these key switches over the Cherry MX Blues that many geekhackers seem to like.
If you are interested in buying one of my KB-5181 keyboards, send me a PM. I live in Southern California and can ship via UPS or FedEx. I will include the USB converter from Clickykeyboards.com that is a must-have for full connectivity with modern computers.
Good luck in your quest for a mechanical keyboard. If you are like most of us, you will probably end up with a lot more than one. I'm actually starting to grow fond of my brand new HH Pro 2...
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Huha, on your graph, the red and brown MX should be the same force. And I think all of the MX are the same noise level (except for the blues, of course). The tactile bumps don't add anything to the noise level.
Nope.
The brown switches tactile point is about 55 cN (http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm) (the picture is really, really small, but you get the idea), whereas reds have their switch point at roughly 45 cN (I found a picture of this on the internets one day, but I can't find it at the moment; I've got diagrams directly from Cherry here, but I haven't asked if I can redistribute them yet, so you'll just have to believe me on that one, sorry). Blues have their tactile point at 60 cN, clears at roughly 63 cN or something like that. Blacks are 60 cN as well.
Also, the sound isn't identical. The sound of Cherries is mostly friction; I found out (with my hacked-together-possibly-reds) they are slightly quieter than blacks. Blacks are quiet as well, but the sound of friction can be mildly irritating to some people, even if you don't bottom out. The tactile bump of browns really gives them a different sound, even if you press right through, and that makes them slightly louder than blacks or reds. I don't know anything about clears, but I reckon they're slightly louder than blacks as well.
-huha
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Huha, You know I've seen those Cherry diagrams too and they seem to be off - they don't even match their published specs.
IIRC you have some fancy measuring system - are you getting these numbers in your testing? - my RipOmeter measures consistently much less.
It's not that fancy, but I do plan on measuring all the switches I have (I took one keyboard and a switch sample of each Cherry switch I own. My previous runs aren't yet analyzed, so I'm clueless on their accuracy. This should be done in the next few weeks or so, though.
-huha
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Thanks for the replies again.
I wasn't really blaming anyone, just disappointed with the fact that still remains...
Unless you really want the small size (and I cannot say that I don't...) why not get the CHEAPER, STRONGER Realforce, and if desired, emulate the HHKB layout?
Problems with emulation, in my experience:
- Hardware is almost always better than software - autohotkey is not perfect. It has lag issues when pressing too many keys, and other possible weirdness. It's like using software raid versus hardware raid - you pay a premium for convenience and performance.
- Key locations - you can emulate the hhkb, but you can't emulate physical key locations. Maybe not so bad if using left control for Fn though...
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i was going to ask but didnt want to get too far off topic
is there practice of flashing/updating boards, esp to get 'hardware' colemak/dvorak?
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i was going to ask but didnt want to get too far off topic
is there practice of flashing/updating boards, esp to get 'hardware' colemak/dvorak?
No. You can get programmable keyboards, but they tend to be stupidly expensive. If you're particularly adventurous, you can make or buy a programmable keyboard controller and hack it into a keyboard.
-huha
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is there practice of flashing/updating boards, esp to get 'hardware' colemak/dvorak?
Some boards can be flashed, e.g. Cherry POS boards. I have wondered if you can edit the firmware file to rearrange the layout.
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Also, some recent Mac keyboards can supposedly be turned to the dark side - ehr, flashed with malware.
You could reverse engineer it to make your own controller firmware, though I would expect it to be messy to write.
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well, what i did see was a 'QIDO' usb device that goes between keyboard and comp that turns qwerty to dvorak on the fly. too bad i am hooked on colemak. i dont get it, colemak is better than dvorak, you would think dvoraks would have the mentality to change (again). even if not for improvement, but simply for increasing popularity. ~25wpm after ~2days of personal use, by the way. typing of the dead should have been around in high school.
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[...] a 'QIDO' usb device that goes between keyboard and comp[...]
Like this? (http://www.keyghost.com/qido/)
I had thought it might be kinda handy to have a more general version of that, a programmable keyboard remapper in hardware. Autohotkey in a dongle, more or less.
Has anyone already made something like that?
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thats the one
but i agree cant be that hard to make it customizeable (even if it's not at every user's level... just leave it up to the community)
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A re-mapper is quite doable when it comes to PS/2. For USB, it'll be a huge pain, as the controller has to implement a USB host that accepts keyboards. That's supposed to be quite complicated, especially for low-cost microcontrollers.
-huha
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That's what I do. Anybody who does gaming, esp FPS, will find LCTRL as a modifier very natural. Plus, it's a corner key so you don't get many mis-hits.
The HHKB design is very antiquated in my opinion. You should be able to remap any key in firmware flashes. Giving them $250 is just supporting laziness IMHO. Where's the HHKB3?
I wouldn't mind seeing some different hhkb configurations either. It would be nice if the Fn key could be customized in hardware.
But in defense of the hhkb, this isn't a unique flaw. There are few keyboards that allow hardware remapping beyond dip switches. Since most OS's natively support 1 to 1 key remapping, I'm not sure it would justify a cost increase either.
Calling the layout antiquated is also a bit of a stretch. Qwerty, caps lock, scroll lock, etc. are antiquated. At least the hhkb makes some attempt to minimize the useless stuff. (On a side note, the kinesis advantage is probably the best example of a modern layout.)
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I appreciate what everyone is contributing and don't want to make it sound like I'm saying you are 'wrong'... I don't even know whether or not to disagree. I just do not know why you consider the HHKB layout antiquated (aside from the price thing... if it was $100 I would have ordered by now) (and the rare programmability). Like everyone else says, how is Caps and Scroll and Numpad/lock not antiquated? I'm not old enough to have the history knowledge some people do, but the HHKB seems ambitious and minimalistic, for better or worse... but hardly antiquated, especially when compared to 104key style...
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I appreciate what everyone is contributing and don't want to make it sound like I'm saying you are 'wrong'... I don't even know whether or not to disagree. I just do not know why you consider the HHKB layout antiquated (aside from the price thing... if it was $100 I would have ordered by now) (and the rare programmability). Like everyone else says, how is Caps and Scroll and Numpad/lock not antiquated? I'm not old enough to have the history knowledge some people do, but the HHKB seems ambitious and minimalistic, for better or worse... but hardly antiquated, especially when compared to 104key style...
The HH Pro 2 is an excellent keyboard. This comes from someone who is in the buckling spring camp (PC AT 84-key) and who has only used the HH keyboard for 2 days.
Ironically, The HH Pro 2 is technically not a mechanical keyboard, but the Topre key switches have more of a tactile response than Cherry MX brown key switches.
The quality distinctions between the Topre Realforce and the HH Pro 2 may be factual, but would not matter to most users. The HH Pro 2 is made in Japan and has some nice touches like the removable USB cable. The HH form factor simply cannot be matched. The Filco boards are decent quality, but most are made in Taiwan or China by Costar Electronics, a contract manufacturer and OEM for several brands.
You won't go wrong with the HH Pro 2 keyboard. The Topre Realforce 23UB is also pretty damn nice if you ever require a seperate number pad and it pairs nicely with the HH Pro 2.
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It looks to me that if Cherry can do it why can't Topre. Link to Cherry FAQ (http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/keyboards/FAQs/index.htm#_How_do_I_7) with programming example.
And as noted that is only for their Point Of Sale boards normal consumer level boards should not need to be re-programmed. True there is a small market that would love to have the ability to reprogram there boards but is that market big enough to justify the development costs. I don't know maybe maybe not. And I do have to admit I really like the approach that lowploy is taking for programming his board as long has he openly documents how to program the board without his software.
Geez - it's 2009 Topre. DIP switches are dead.
I'm actually quite happy that they put this functionality in a dip switch verses some proprietary software application that only runs on Windows (I do not have a single windows box in my house). Did it really bug you that you had to flip a switch to get the functionality you wanted ripster?
I wouldn't rag on them so much if the keyboard didn't cost $250 and they continue to milk an old design.
Pretty much every keyboard manufacture is milking the old design. About the only ones that are not are some of the ergo boards and even then most of them are still milking the same old keyboard design. So get over it.
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Once again, if Cherry could make their $50 keypad programmable why can't Topre make a $250 dollar keyboard programmable? I mean, people seem to like dumping on Unicomp. I'd rather pick on the most expensive keyboard out there.
QUOTE]
Why ripster? Because they don't have to. All the Topre boards including the HH Pro are selling quite well with antiquated Sun layouts and DIP switches vs. flash memory. Worldwide demand for Torpre/ PFU Fujuitsu boards often exceeds supply.
The same is generally not true for Cherry boards or Cherry keyswitches. Many of the Cherry branded boards use unremarkable cheap membrane technology and the supply of the differnt types of Cherry keyswitches to OEMs is more than adequate for demand.
Most people, myself included would pay a premium for build quality vs. the latest technology because the build quality translates into keyswitch feel which is the primary reason we care so much about HIDs. If I were a programmer and absolutely required remapping of key layouts I would probably feel differently.
A private enterprise only exists to make a profit. When demand for Topre boards declines enough to impact net margin and shareholder value, Topre will reenginner their boards to remain competitive. Don't hold your breath though because my guess is that the consumer keyboard product lines represent a financially insignificant proportion of the company's portfolio.
And let's not kid ourselves about the highly venerated IBM Model M keyboards. These membrane keyboards were designed to enable mass production at a lower unit cost than the technologically superior Model F capacitive keyboards because IBM simply couldn't maintain their target profit margins on sales of bundled PC systems with Model F keyboards. Imagine what it would cost to manufacture a Model F in the US, in today's dollars.
A scary thought.
Edit: BTW, I am really starting to warm up to my new HH Pro 2 and Topre Realforce 23UB numberpad. (we financial types can't live without dedicated numeric keypads). I never to expected the HH Pro to be so enjoyable to type on. It is about as opposite from the IBM PC AT 84-key keyboard, in every way, as it gets. Yet, there is something strangely compelling about it. More to come...
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funny how i thought at first you meant Piece Of **** cherry keyboard... moving along
i feel like the hhkb is overpriced and delivers nothing unique but the form factor...
but the form factor...
i feel like if i don't buy it i will always be thinking about how it could have been with the hhkb. the detachable cable is something i always see as underrated: not just keyboards, but headphones, power supplies... there's always the connection quality argument but for something digital there's not much downside.
and reading this
Ironically, The HH Pro 2 is technically not a mechanical keyboard, but the Topre key switches have more of a tactile response than Cherry MX brown key switches.
Topre key switches have more of a tactile response than Cherry MX brown key switches.
i will not say my quest is over, especially since i was advised to wait and see what Elite gets in soon. $244 is a lot for half a $216 keyboard...
EDIT and one last worry: membrane boards have low life, why doesn't a topre? rubber part seems very similar to me.
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I think it's funny that when I google "HHKB2" I get my own Geekhack AutoHotkey Mod post as the first hit.
Speaking of DIP switches..... did you realize that the 87U DIP SW 4 is for firmware updates. There isn't an equivalent on the HHKB2 according to the DIP guide. (http://www.pfusystems.com/hhkeyboard/leaflet/hhkb_backview.html)
Maybe I'll get my wish someday if someone sits down and writes the firmware updater.
that IS good news... native colemak? what is -your- dream?
i keep bouncing back and forth. bottom line so far seems: hhkb is revolutionary and compact, 87u is otherwise (as in, ignoring the hhkb charm and compactness) better for less, filco is different for way less (again, amazing how $120 keyboard is suddenly cheap)
i still don't understand how the topre is so much different than a regular dome... it has a spring underneath. really so much better and longer lasting (how CAN it be?) than a logitech? $200+???
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Yea I keep hopping that someone will reverse engineer that or that Topre will release some information on what it does.
Also a FYI while looking around for more Topre boards (yea I've found a few more that are not listed in OEM thread) I read on this Blog that has all kinds of Topre data that the production run for the 87U was 70,000 per version and that their were I think 14 unbranded ones that were sent out as prototypes to various places.
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still don't understand how the topre is so much different than a regular dome... it has a spring underneath. really so much better and longer lasting (how CAN it be?) than a logitech? $200+???
The main distinction between a rubber dome board and the ones we rave about here on geekhack, in my opinion, is the ability to get the key to register without having to mash it all the way down. Much less abusive to the hands, and it gives the engineers more freedom to design the tactile and especially the audible feedback.
The spring inside the Topre contributes almost nothing to the feel, as Ripster demonstrated (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5697&do=comments&p=1). The feel comes mostly from the collapse of the rubber sleeve. The spring's sole job, in a Topre, is to change shape, which changes the capacitance of the key.
As for longevity, I'm not convinced that the rubber domes are inherently short-lived. I'd expect the lifetime to depend on the material used and shape of the domes, etc. I have a Key Tronic rubber dome board (same as this one (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=82541#post82541), though I'd forgotten about that gawdawful sticker) that I used for maybe six years at home, and a Compaq one I used for eight years at work. Both are still in decent shape, give or take some keycap wear.
The build quality of the Topre boards is high, better than most other keyboards you can buy new today, which likely contributes to the price. On the other hand, it does appear that Topre is charging more of a premium than other high-quality manufacturers (e.g. Filco or Unicomp).
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That's the article I saw that made me think worse of them in the first place. Just seems like the rubber dome is always bashed for durability, but I get what you are saying and hope it is true.
32wpm on Colemak. I can go back to being able to bear grammar. Speed tests are more effective for me, I guess, there's no sense of urgency in 'training'.
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I read on this Blog that has all kinds of Topre data that the production run for the 87U was 70,000 per version and that their were I think 14 unbranded ones that were sent out as prototypes to various places.
*chuckles*
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87u is otherwise (as in, ignoring the hhkb charm and compactness) better for less
The 87U was actually $12 MORE than the HHKB. It was a limited edition board, so it carried a limited edition price tag.
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On the other hand, it does appear that Topre is charging more of a premium than other high-quality manufacturers (e.g. Filco or Unicomp).
Topre is charging more of a premium...and most people are gladly parting with their money and paying that premium, with good reason.
Sorry, but as much as I love Jim, Chuck, and all the guys at Unicomp, it is not a high quality manufacturer. I've read many reviews on this board that make me lol when people reference the "Unicomp quality". The four keyboards I've purchased from Unicomp are mediocre at best.
Even though Filco is a Japanese company, it's Chinese and Taiwanese made boards simply don't match the build quality and attention to detail of a board manufactured in a Japanese plant by Japanese workers. Filcos are generally good solid keyboards and provide better build quality than most keyboards, but the Topre Realforce and PKU Fujitsu (essentially Topre) keyboards are better.
The Das keyboard and Filco Majestouch Tactile Click keyboards are both manufactured by Costar using Cherry MX Blue key switches. The Filco build quality seems better than the Das, but the guts are essentially the same.
Edit: I'm in not bagging on Unicomp, I'm just saying that they do not make premium keyboards. However their customer repair service and communication is excellent!
I don't particularly care for Cherry key switches because they are too light (Cherry Blues) or the tactility too subtle (Cherry Browns). Your preference may be different depending on how you will primarily use the keyboard. My primary use is typing, not gaming.
Check out the review of the Chicony KB-5181 posted on geekhack. The plastics are cheap and it is a relatively ugly copy of the IBM Model M, but the key presses are light and it provides a satisfying typing experience. If you haven't had much experience with mechanicals keyboards, this is a cheap, low risk alternative for you. The KB-5181 provides both audible and tactile feedback, but is quieter than the Model M and Cherry Blue key switches. It will work with any PC using a standard AT to PS/2 adapter and microchip PS/2to USB converter (converter costs about 15 bucks). Even though it is an old keyboard, there are many NIB models available from a variety of sources.
I am pleased with my new HH Pro 2 and it continues to grow on me. ripster, webwit, and others warned me that I would probably not like the HH because it so different from the 84-key PC AT monster that I love so much. I'm not very good about taking advice and in this case I'm especially glad that I took a big (and expensive) plunge by making the leap from old school Model F buckling springs to Topre key switches.
If money is not the primary issue preventing you from getting a keyboard, get a HH Pro 2 for its unique form factor, detachable cable, excellent build quality, and most importantly, for the uniform 45 gram sensitivity acrossall the key switches. The dark gray HH Pro 2 sold by Elite Keyboards looks exactly like the Topre 23UB black numeric keypad. In this case, I guess gray = black.
Decisions, decisions...
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After unpackaging my Filco, I thouht wow. I only knew Cherryboards and some others like the Mtek or the Chicony, which felt at least very solid compared to many others out there. I had high expections from Filco and I am amazed by its build quality. I usually don't get carried away very fast but I was really surprised.
You say, the HHKB Pro2 is feelable better? Can anyone give me some details about that? I don't think, it's just the detchable cable and the USB-hub which make the difference beside the fact, talking about a topre board, right?
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The 87U was actually $12 MORE than the HHKB. It was a limited edition board, so it carried a limited edition price tag.
well mistake on the 87U, i was thinking of the lower priced, less cool but full size 103U. i know its a demand thing but it still seems stupid that the 103U (if identical other than layout to the 87U like people have said) is the cheapest of the three. i feel like i won't be able to avoid common sense if the 86U comes back in stock at Elite. 87U just has the menu button, right? that's the reason for the price and 'limited edition'?
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does the keys comment/page refer only to the 87u? hhkb keys are $65 for 60 vs $30 for 104 like the filco, another thing that eats at me.
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Ever since I got my HHKB Pro 2 it has replaced my 87U as my main board on my system at home. It pretty much feels exactly like my 87U but I really love the form factor of it. And I really wanted to force myself to learn the keys. I also agree with webwit/ripster the keys on the Topre boards are the best out there right now. They just feel so nice on the tips of your fingers. And yes they are expensive but well worth it IMHO. Besides the black keys are so close to being blank that you sould not need to purchase a blank set. You really have to look at them to see the lettering on them.
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@webwit: screw you! your comment regarding HHKP keycaps make the filco feel cheap in comparison just forced my hand to order a hhkb :)
@bollwerk: I was also amazed by the Filco quality, especially when compared to the bunch of cherry boards i own.
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@webwit: screw you! your comment regarding HHKP keycaps make the filco feel cheap in comparison just forced my hand to order a hhkb :)
well that is his job...
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ok i believe it is the hhkb, i will ignore the price and it will be more than i ever hoped for
had no idea the keycaps varied so much in quality. i guess if you want the best you have to pay. it will be a while before i get courage to dye $65 keys.
the blanks are more principle than aesthetic, and not having to pop them off to actually look like colemak is good too. changed my G15 to dvorak, found out about colemak during my first online training session and had to change again (but remember it's like "practical cosmetics", not really necessary). so yeah, no more switching.
probably still wait for elite to get new shipment in, in case there is a price drop or 86u for ultracheap.
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probably still wait for elite to get new shipment in, in case there is a price drop or 86u for ultracheap.
He is already cheaper than everyone else on price alone. Other sources for the HHKB Pro 2 or the 86U are higher and you will have to pay considerably more for shipping. I do agree though that it would be nice if he gets some 86U's in just so he will have a tenkeyless Topre option for those that are looking to get one.
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how much WAS the 86U at elite, or was it ever offered there? if it did arrive and was below 200 i would probably get it instead
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It was never offered at Elite. Everyone imported theirs from Japan/Korea as far as I know.
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Currently you can get the 86U at benippon (http://benippon.com/en/topre-realforce-86u-se0500-english-usb-tenkeyless-keyboard) as you will note the current price for one is 22,860 yen or (22860/~92 =) $248 or so plus about $40 or so to ship it to the US by EMS. So if you can do wait and see if Elite gets it because he has been beating the Japanese price and shipping will be cheaper.
For reference to understand how much cheaper he has been selling the boards currently benippon is selling the black HHKB Pro 2 for 25,680 yen or ~$279 plus shipping from Japan. Elite is selling the same board for $244. You can find the HHKB Pro 2 for cheaper at other places in Japan but most of them will not ship to the US so you have to go through a buying service to get it which will increase the cost by how much depends on the buying service. And again you will have to pay for the higher shipping cost.
Elitekeyboards is a great source for these boards for us that live in the US and anyone that lives here should take advantage of it if they can.
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87U preorders on Elite... oh no...
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Sorry to keep bumping, but another thing about the HHKB: the right/only function key...
I thought the <>/diamond keys were function keys. Didn't notice it was that tiny thing on the right. I looked into it and read how one of these can be turned into a left function key, but not both!? Those keys seem like they should be THE function KEYS, how can you use just one, and it looks weird to have them as different sizes and in different places... who needs a Windows key? If the Fn on the right was Windows key then it could still be used from time to time, and allow you to use those diamond keys as much as they need to be used...
Am I confused of did I read wrong?
Also wish that they would have done something with the blank area where CTRL is supposed to be. Reaching to Control is a lot more comfortable to me than reaching to Caps (where Control is on HHKB).
I know everyone thinks this is going on too far and might not care anymore and I WAS trying to decide silently but the 87U preorder and just realizing this... I was just about settled oh the HHKB.
And believe me I am not just mindlessly asking and stuff. The other day I got out paper and tallied the number of responses/recommendations for each board. Then the next I redid it but gave 2 points for an opinion that was backed by someone who had actually owned or used both. I am trying to make sense of it all!
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Well apparently a lot of people here do use the Win/command key. IMO all you really need is the Fn key on the left since all the keys used with Fn are on the right.
As for CTRL, I understand it's a matter of preference, but I find the caps location much easier to press from home row. I never liked using CTRL down in the corner and having to press it with the base of my pinky.
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you mean I'd only need one of the Win keys replaced with function, right? As the only REAL Fn is on the right... ?
If so then yeah, a good point, I never realized. The left Win would be plenty of Fn for the right keys, and reaching for F1-F5 is going to be a reach anyway. I guess it just seems very un-symmetric, and using my thumb as a right Fn would be nice. I don't 100% follow the opposite hand rule with Shift as it is. It will be unconventional and require change typing on the HHKB anyway, I guess.
I just do RtAlt(thumb)+1(ring finger... wrong I know but that's how I do 1 right now) to see what it would be like on the HHKB, and it feels so much more natural than LtAlt(Thumb)+1(any finger, requires lifting from home row now)
How does anyone smoothly reach all the way to the Fn key, especially AND do stuff like the Fn-Arrow keys? How does one NOT use the DIP option?
EDIT I guess my thinking on Control reach was when I was thinking about my hand on WASD. From the home row Caps is easier and it is going to be hard to break my habit of moving my whole hand to do cut/copy/paste... but I suppose that is the point.
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The Control in the Caps Lock position (some would say the 'proper' place for Control) depends on what you are doing with your computer. If you are playing a lot of FPSes and are used to using Ctrl as crouch, then you're better off with a conventional layout board. I can tell you from experience that for everything else, the Control in the Caps Lock is probably more comfortable to use.
If you are having doubts about the layouts, I'd just get the RealForce with it's more conventional layout. Also, it lets you swap Caps and Ctrl if you want. :)
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So far (as in, after reading here) it's my ONLY doubt about the layout... and a small one.
I can always remap keys for games but I don't find the wasted corner on the HHKB nice, I reach to it easily during normal typing, and it is easy to find a corner key.
The 87U is what I will do if I don't go HHKB but I want to go HHKB.
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Keyboard layout issues are a hard decision. I went through the same thing when I was looking at both boards. I got the 87U first then the HHKB Pro second. Both are great boards and I use them both all the time. And it is really hard to give someone advice on which is the best for them. Because it does boil down to a personal choice and preference. But I do have one comment to make about the choice that you should think about. Do you ever see yourself wanting both of them? If you think at some point you are going to want both of them get the 87U now while you can. My bet is that elitekeyboards did not get a bunch of them and they may be gone tomorrow. HHKB Pro's should still be for sale when you decide you are ready for the second board but the 87U may not be then you will want to kick yourself. But then again you could at a later date get the 86U but it is not a limited edition keyboard like the 87U is.
Sorry to confuse you even more. But the question of whether or not you may want both should be considered.
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I do keep thinking about this... before my keyboard ventures I never expected them to hold their value so well, unlike any other computer stuff.
EDIT but when they were only OOS on Elite for a couple weeks it makes me wonder how LIMITED they really are.
I don't know whether it's available to me, actually, I don't know if they will close preorders as a way of saying they are out.
EDIT on tenkeyless, what does num lock do with no num pad?
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So far (as in, after reading here) it's my ONLY doubt about the layout... and a small one.
I can always remap keys for games but I don't find the wasted corner on the HHKB nice, I reach to it easily during normal typing, and it is easy to find a corner key.
The 87U is what I will do if I don't go HHKB but I want to go HHKB.
Go with the HHKP Pro 2. Once you have it and map the keys the way you want, it will become second nature in couple of days.
I also never really thought that I would be happier with fewer keys but I now actually prefer the HH layout over conventional keyboards. You really can't beat the form factor and quallity. Everyone may not agree with me but I find that the HHKB Pro 2 provides more tactility than Cherry MX brown keyswitches.
My favourite keyswitch remains the IBM PC AT buckling spring over capacitive contacts, probably the most tactile and clicky key switch ever made. However, I actually enjoy typing on the HHKB Topre key switches. The tactility is subtle, but reassuring and my typing speed is pretty close to what I can achieve on the PC AT keyboard. Because my home office is in the loft next to the master bedroom, my wife has also been much happier since I got my HHKB becuase she's able to get a couple of extra hours of sleep every night.
Disclaimer: I have a Topre Realforce 87U on order for a (yet another) "backup" keyboard.
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EDIT on tenkeyless, what does num lock do with no num pad?
Numl lock on the Topre Realforce 87U switches a set of alpha keys to numbers in a standard numeric keypad layout. You can see how this works if you click on the pictures of the 87U on ElliteKeyboards.com. Expand the last picture to see which keys can be used as numbers.
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okay so I go to Elite every day now (yes really) and have failed to notice this, wow.
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okay so I go to Elite every day now (yes really) and have failed to notice this, wow.
Ok, I meant second to the last picture here:
http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se1700
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I worried that the wording would convey the opposite idea, added the 'wow' at the end, didn't help. I meant that until you said for me to look, I never saw the picture, even though I have been to that page probably 20 times this week.
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even though I have been to that page probably 20 times this week.
Heh, heh, you sound like me before I bought my HHKB Pro 2. Actually, I probably visited that page more than 20 times in a week.
My wife, my staff, and many of my friends believe my obsession with keyboards is bizarre and unhealthy. I mean how many times do I hear: "Ah come one, it's just a f..king keyboard!" to which I reply that that my unhealthy interest in computer keyboards is relatively harmless compared to my other more "dangerous" interests such as hunting and skydiving.
As a junior geekhack, I am fascinated by the collective experience and knowledge shared by the more senior community die hards. Not that I would actually take an X-acto knife to my Topre rubber domes...
You seem like you're well on the way to becomming a full-fledged geekhack yourself. We're making bets on whether you end up going with the HHKB or the Topre...
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You seem like you're well on the way to becomming a full-fledged geekhack yourself. We're making bets on whether you end up going with the HHKB or the Topre...
So one qualifies as a "full-fledged geekhacker" only if you own Topre's complete array of products? Or is one enough?
Anyway, I prefer staying a lurker and buy several Real Keyboards(TM) with mechanical switches for the price of a single Topre rubber dome.
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You are only a full-fledged geekhacker of you own all of the Topres, have the complete Model M line, the F is your favorite keyboard, and you occasionaly set fire to a keyboard to identify the type of plastic.
You do not qualify, you wimp!
Oh, no room for bender, huh? Fine. I'll go build my own keyboard forum. With blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the keyboards and the blackjack!
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lal is your Topre hatred serious/reasonable or just a joke?
and yes, I don't own anything yet, but because of over-the-shoulder and my mistake of talking about it ONCE, I get many "$200?!?!?!?!?! JUST A KEYBOARD!!!!"s a day. Not that I didn't think/say the same thing at first, but I certainly recognized that there can be a good and crappy version of anything.
Earlier it was "just a flashlight".
Why's it so hard? I respond with "$40,000! oh, just a car! it takes gas, 4 seats, rolls!" etc but for some reason it's never the same.
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lal is your Topre hatred serious/reasonable or just a joke?
I'd say half 'n half. I consider Topre a joke for being *much* more expensive than any mechanical switch board. I mean, it's rubber dome! Indistinguishable from a 3$ Dell Crapmaster to the average user!
Yeah, maybe the highest quality materials and precision manufacturing et cetera bla bla. And I'm fine if these things are more imporant to some than tactile and audible feedback.
What I can't stand though is celebrating Topre as the ultimate end goal and talking poor newbies into spending their hard earned money on Topres when they could have a multitude of Real Keyboards(TM) with different types of real switches for the price of ONE Topre.
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I'd say half 'n half. I consider Topre a joke for being *much* more expensive than any mechanical switch board. I mean, it's rubber dome! Indistinguishable from a 3$ Dell Crapmaster to the average user!
Oh here we go again.... Give me a break lal. Most average users can't tell the difference between non click mechanical keyboards and a rubber dome ether. And everyone I've let touch any of my Topre boards knows they are not a $3 crap Dell keyboard. But those same people did not notice much of a difference between a crappy rubber dome and a cherry brown filco.
Yeah, maybe the highest quality materials and precision manufacturing et cetera bla bla. And I'm fine if these things are more imporant to some than tactile and audible feedback.
The Topre key boards do have tactile feed back true it is different than the tactile feed back of a mechanical board but it does have tactile feed back. Personally I prefer a non clicky board for every day use.
What I can't stand though is celebrating Topre as the ultimate end goal and talking poor newbies into spending their hard earned money on Topres when they could have a multitude of Real Keyboards(TM) with different types of real switches for the price of ONE Topre.
Well I'm sorry but it is the ultimate end goal for some of us. And it is a Real Keyboard(TM). I've used pretty much all the currently available mechanical keyboards out there with the exception of some of the Alps that only come on some older boards (blues, pinks ect..) and I find the Topre switch to have a superior typing experience. That does not mean that every one will like them. You can find evidence of that here. But what should be noted is that those that prefer a Heavy switch (BS, Alps white) are the ones that tend to not like them. I personally try to get people to try other boards first before they move to a Topre precisely because they are expensive. If they find something they like great that is what all of this is about. If they have not found something they truly like then it is time to try a Topre. But if a new member specifically asks about a Topre board then I will answer their questions and present the good and the bad of a Topre board. This thread is the reason I took my HHKB Pro apart so the question of what makes it different from a Realforce could be answered with as little bias as possible.
I have one question for you though have you even tried a Topre? Or at least given it a chance under your fingers because as you know you really need to use a keyboard for a while before you can form a informed decision about any keyboard.
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You are only a full-fledged geekhacker of you own all of the Topres, have the complete Model M line, the F is your favorite keyboard, and you occasionaly set fire to a keyboard to identify the type of plastic.
!
Hey now, I meet most of the above criteria...except that part about setting fire to keyboards.
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So one qualifies as a "full-fledged geekhacker" only if you own Topre's complete array of products? Or is one enough?
Anyway, I prefer staying a lurker and buy several Real Keyboards(TM) with mechanical switches for the price of a single Topre rubber dome.
I'd say visiting EliteKeyboards.com 20 times a week to stare at keyboard specs and spending > 10 hours a week on geekhack.org qualifies for being "well on the way" to being a full-fledged geekhacker.
There are other criteria also...accordiing to webwit...
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As far as I'm concerned a switch may contain a leprechaun pulling a lever, as long as it feels good. Why would a tactile feeling and nice sound be limited to funny springs? My best feeling and sounding keyboard is magnetic.
I'd pay for that
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As far as I'm concerned a switch may contain a leprechaun pulling a lever, as long as it feels good. Why would a tactile feeling and nice sound be limited to funny springs? My best feeling and sounding keyboard is magnetic.
I'm not quite ready to try the Data Hand but I would really love to. The way it is laid out and the way you operate it really intrigues me. But then again if we think that Topre's are expensive I guess we just to take a look at what one of those cost that is if you can find one that is.
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As far as I'm concerned a switch may contain a leprechaun pulling a lever, as long as it feels good.
Yeah, if it has a lever it's mechanical ;)
Why would a tactile feeling and nice sound be limited to funny springs?
It's not. It's about the speed the resistance drops.
It's touching how eager some other fanboys defend their beloved Topres. I for one don't want to go back to where I came from, i.e. pressing into pieces of gum. With the difference of paying ten times as much for the same ol' s**t. Ridiculous.
Think what you want, I say Topre is cleverly ripping you off with their boring rubber domes.
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Yeah, if it has a lever it's mechanical ;)
It's not. It's about the speed the resistance drops.
It's touching how eager some other fanboys defend their beloved Topres. I for one don't want to go back to where I came from, i.e. pressing into pieces of gum. With the difference of paying ten times as much for the same ol' s**t. Ridiculous.
Think what you want, I say Topre is cleverly ripping you off with their boring rubber domes.
I LOVE my original IBM PC AT 84-key buckling spring over capacitive contact keyboard. It is my personal favourite because of the precise and crisp audible and tactile feedback. The 60g keyforce (as measured by the ripometer) is ideal for me and it has the best on-center feel of any keyboard.
However, I am also very fond of my Happy Hacking Pro 2 keyboard which uses Topre rubber dome keyswitches.
My initial impression of the HHKB was, WTF? I just shelled out $250 for a keyboard that feels like a slightly tighter version of my crap Dell rubber dome keyboard. It didn't take long for me to really appreciate the HHKB which is really the polar opposite of my beloved IBM PC AT keyboard. Extended typing on this RUBBER DOME keyboard is enjoyable due to subtleties that are difficult to describe. The keystrokes are light, but their is definitely a reassuring tactile response.
I can type for extended periods with my HHKB without fatigue which is not the case with the crap Dell rubber dome keyboard. I don't know how much experience you have actually using a Topre keyboard for an extended period.
The market demand for Topre keyboards is driven by users who specifically seek them out for their feature functionality. I don't believe Topre is ripping anyone off. There are certainly customers who buy Topre keyboards and find that they do not live up to their expectations. But there are obviously many more people who "get it" once they acquire a Topre keyboard, and purchase additonal Topre keyboards. Yes, it is a rubber dome keyboard but I believe the Topre capacitive key switch is the best modern key switch available.
Topre's are very expensive, but thousands of customers are readily willing to pay a huge premium for the value they receive. You believe it is a perceived value-add, but I and many others understand the real value. I don't give a rat's ass about prestige or the "coolness factor". It's all about the typing experience for me. I am buying a second Topre keyboard because of my personal experience with the HHKB. Or perhaps I am being "cleverly ripped off." :)
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So one qualifies as a "full-fledged geekhacker" only if you own Topre's complete array of products? Or is one enough?
I figure if you are on this site and post about keyboards, to the rest of the world you are about as "qualified" as you need to be! haahaa =P
You are only a full-fledged geekhacker of you own all of the Topres, have the complete Model M line, the F is your favorite keyboard, and you occasionaly set fire to a keyboard to identify the type of plastic.
You do not qualify, you wimp!
SO THERE!
As far as I'm concerned a switch may contain a leprechaun pulling a lever, as long as it feels good. Why would a tactile feeling and nice sound be limited to funny springs? My best feeling and sounding keyboard is magnetic.
Show off :)
but seriously though...I would pay a ton for a leprechaun to pull a lever!
I did a little test with my mom and some of the keyboards that I brought over. She hates the "ping" of the model M, and doesn't like the "clack" of the bottoming out AT101W, and thought the layout of my AEII was outta wack (?). But when she then used her normal HP rubber dome keyboard, she immediately said EEEEWWWW!!! And abruptly pushed it away! haahaa, she said it felt gooey and didn't seem to travel far enough. What a riot! I had her go through all this with her eyes closed. I think she is down with the AT101W now :)
I would really love to get her a Filco 10keyless with brown cherries.
Anywho I feel a good keyboard is one that you like (maybe even love) and it does what you want and lasts. Reviews are very important (since you really cant see any of this stuff in stores) and buying and returning are a good idea if you must.
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Get a HHKB and a Filco with Cherry Browns and get it over with. All this pondering and typing..
If you don't like one of them, sell it as almost new.
Funny. The first post. Because after all this, it may be my plan.
I found out there is a shipping cost from Elite and that the $0 was an error.
I can't decide and still kind of want a mechanical switch.
The HHKB is too appealing: the Topre switches can be had for cheaper (like the $145 101 in the marketplace, won't leave me alone) but its size is so nice too...
I keep thinking a Filco for $100 would be a supergood deal, but if I combined shipping for this order... and ordered TWO at once, it would kind of be like that... especially if I DO end up getting both...
One last thing that stopped me is the Deck 82 key. Almost as small as the HHKB, mechanical (black) keys. Now I thought I wanted brown from a Filco but the black would be something different from the Topre (which makes me consider a black or blue Filco... just to have a reason to use it over the Topre... opinions? will brown be too much like the Topre to stop using the HHKB for even a moment?). But I hate the Deck layout... it looks like it is 100% for games. But then again, I could use it like that, Deck for games and HHKB for typing. But the Deck also looks gaudy...
Still thinking about this ALL THE TIME, on the forum even more than XtremeSystems, which is a lot, constantly Googling things I already have. When I'm about to order $400 worth of keyboards, TWO, I can't help but to think about it a lot.
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Well, I don't know what the Topres are like, but I'm pretty sure that a Deck would not be to your taste. Linear switches aren't fun, unless you like to bottom out.
If you wanted an experimental small form factor keyboard, perhaps you should look at a Cherry G84-4100 keyboard. The ML switches on that keyboard are somewhat like a low-profile brown MX switch. This all assumes that you wouldn't mind a low-profile switch.
Really, I think the first step is to decide on switches. If you can find the switches you like, then it's a matter of finding the keyboard you want with those switches. But, in order to see which switches you like, you'll probably have to buy some keyboards, and that comes back to the original problem, doesn't it?
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well, like I've been told many times, if I'm drawn to the HHKB and its layout, there isn't much of another choice. But I still want to own a mechanical! So in comes the Filco... but if I get a brown, and it ends up similar to the HHKB, then 1) The HHKB was kind of wasteful and 2) not much of a reason to use the Filco, that's why I'm considering black. Not too much of a fan of clicky blue, and I do try to play games a lot... who knows.
I'd order the HHKB and "see how it goes" if it wasn't for shipping costs and the way I expect I will end up ordering it anyway...
Thanks a ton everyone, another expensive 'hobby'... a week ago it was still flashlights, which I'm not even done with yet because all of my stuff hasn't arrived yet.
EDIT though an idea comes to mind when I see your avatar (not that it hasn't already been suggested)... a Model M? Then I could have the quiet, cool, modern HHKB with a strong, manly classic Model M.
Time to go find out what year to buy, etc...
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Post 141. Time for some humor.
I'll take the 3rd route: NSFW (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5904185)
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even if i had all the money in the world, the choice is impossible
even if i had all the keyboards in the world, typing on more than one at a time is impossible
im going to yet again go to sleep thinking about this, maybe tomorrow i will know
but hhkb+M seems like a wiser alternative to hhkb+brown
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If you have all the money in the world the choice is easy. Buy them all and if you're not Leona Helmsley you give the rejects to the housekeepers.
God rest her mean-spirited soul. I think about her everytime I'm in Phoenix and I see her former winter pad high up on the hill...
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I'm inspired. So who wants to clean my house and get my rejected Fujitsu Peerless as reward?
wow, that thing looks like fujitsu reverse-engineered a model m, and replaced the hammers with domes:
http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/peerless.html
oh, uhh... are you offering free airfare? ;)
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Q: What Does Michael Vick Call "Leona Helmsley" $12 million tiny white Maltese?
A: An Appetizer
I didn't realize Michael Vick had acquired new taste since his travels to East Asia. :)
I would have guessed an energy tax credit because it requires a lot less electricity to "get the job done" on a Maltese vs. a Greyhound.
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Then I could have the quiet, cool, modern HHKB with a strong, manly classic Model M.
QUOTE]
HHKB is a fine example of a quality modern keyboard (I'm typing on one now) but compared to the original IBM PC AT 84-key keyboard, the Model M is a girly man's keyboard!
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like patrick and tim said, you cant stop with just one; you'll eventually get them all and then you'll know which one you like. :) Sell off the ones you dont want anymore and you'll get some money back that way. I think all we can really tell you is which ones to try first based on what you're looking for. But only you will be able to tell which is your favorite.
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If you are going to try a buckling spring, you've got to go all the way, and find an AT Model F keyboard.
There's a reason I don't have three Filco boards with Cherry blue, Cherry brown, and ALPS...I got the cheapest boards for the switches that I could. With the exception of the Chicony board with the Fake "Cherries", they are all still built better than your average rubber dome keyboard, so you don't really lose anything.
It would be a lot less fun getting into mechanical keyboards if it was easy to just know which kind of switch you wanted, and just stuck with it. But it just isn't that easy.
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Okay, bringing it back for closure. Ended up with the following actually-in-my-hands a couple of days ago:
Used (like-new, no shiny keys, box and all, etc) HHKB Pro2 white, printed
New Filco 104key Brown NON-NKRO
both were too good of deals to get the 'better' versions of each, in my mind.
HHKB Pro 2 --------------
So anyway I've been using the HHKB for the majority of the time just out of principle. Very nice, very crisp, looks awesome with the lettering to my surprise... so bold, defined, clear. The layout itself took maybe a day of getting used to, mainly backspace, but just starting to get used to taking advantage of home/end and stuff.
Build quality and all seems great, I think the plastic plate thing is something to keep it light and the halves are not supposed to match up.
Changed my mind on the DIP switches... I thought for sure I would want Mac mode, and I still do. But switching Alt and Fn was a mistake... how does anyone properly use home/end having to reach with left pinky to start using them? All my pre-planning was useless when I actually started trying to use it like that. Still can't figure out some things... like, the right Alt/meta don't seem to do as I expected all the time. Seems like the right Alt will send CTRL+ALT sometimes? Or was that the right meta? Can't remember how it works since I have been switching back and forth.
Arrow keys and all the other stuff not as bad as I expected. Ctrl is nice, but I haven't played games yet. Part of my decision to switch Alt and meta in the first place, though, was to be able to hit Alt (old meta) with my thumb on WASD (/WARS).
Still have no idea why my index finger though has Fn keys for keys that already exist... especially without combos, like / and -... while my right pinky has to do so much work!
Form factor is better than I even hoped, it's great having the keyboard centered with the mouse off to the right. Trying to figure out how to get the proper desk space to use my 104-long Filco wrist-rest under my HHKB AND the mouse at the same time, as that would be great.
The actual keys/switches/typing part, yes, it feels great. So much more exact than my G15 (that before sending it home, tried one last time, felt kind of nice, like tapping on a pillow, but hard to say I would PREFER it). BUT, after studying my G15 in wait of the key keyboards, I was surprised to find out how much less different the Topre is than a membrane. Heresy, I know, but I feel like the Topre really is like rubber-dome STYLE, but the best of the best rubber dome ever. I can't feel a tactility point yet. They key seems to do the same "up or down, no between" action as the G15. Keys don't wobble, don't mush when stuck down, etc, but it still FEELS like there's rubber underneath each key. Not in a bad way, just not what I expected.
Filco 104key Brown Non-NKRO --------------
At first, I took the Filco out of the box only to do a rollover test (with disappointing results) and basic functionality tests. For some reason it is VERY picky about USB ports though, I thought it was broken for a long time.
Felt weird, little bumps in the keystroke, keycaps having used the HHKB felt SUPER EL CHEAPO, lettering didn't look as nice, etc. It is heavier, more of a heft to it.
Why is my Filco logo all scratched when I look at it in direct light?
Still too paranoid to put on the red Esc (or flip the HHKB spacebar) even though I have taken apart my G15 and other keyboards plenty.
So I put it back in box to remain pristine for a while.
...
But yesterday I was unexpectedly forced to downsize here in Iraq and had to pack up all my nice new packaging. This was very hard for me. Waterproofed the boxes and all before letting them go. So the Filco sat in my laptop bag, I'm taking it home with me! No way I went through all the trouble to not get to use it for X (XX maybe even) months. The Dell AT101, on the other hand...
So anyway today I got curious again and took the Filco back out. Combination of making sure it was okay in the box and all... easily moved the HHKB aside. Time to start actually trying to type on the Filco.
And wow.
I really hate to say it.
But I did a 5min test and this post up to here with the Brown switches, and I am amazed.
They are so light. I can feel the little bumps and after only a few minutes I am only bottoming out half the time. It feels great (though I am offcenter again from the desk, and maybe my arm only hurts because of this, but my fingers are not tired, nor were they with the HHKB, then again, the G15 never really gave me problems either).
It's like the Filco has character where the HHKB is soulless perfection. I make myself keep going to type more on the Filco instead of just getting the job done, and rolling along for a few seconds without bottoming out is awesome. The layout seems wrong after a couple days on the HHKB, and I don't need about half the board, but software can kind of fix that...
Non-linear note: going back up to edit some stuff about the HHKB, my opinion kind of only solidifies as I go on...
Not that I think such a test is very scientific, because of the human factors, but I don't know which I type faster on, but the clicks of the Filco make it feel like I am getting more done. It also feels more 'fun' and like I am involved more. It ALSO does feel significantly different than a membrane (see stuff above on the Topre switch if you skipped it). When I was tapping keys individually at first they felt cheap and crunchy, but when you type on all of them, it is a much nicer feeling.
Anyway, so now I am TORN between that which I already own! Not enough space on this tiny desk for both. Each has its merits, and I am blown away by the Filco even though I spent 1/3 as much as I did on the HHKB (even thinking it was perhaps frivolous, until I used it). I won't say (admit?) that it is better than the HHKB, and I definitely love the HHKB's softness and quietness and layout and look, but the Filco is DEFINITELY not going to remain perfect in-box, nor will the HHKB become something I don't use every day...
OH MAN, this is not easy...
TL,DR: the HHKB is just as described, perfect. The Filco feels totally different and actually lives up to the descriptor of "MECHANICAL" keyboard.
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I mean, I really like perfection too... just saying that the Filco can't really be 'compared' to the HHKB.
Though I should be saying "Topre switches" and "Brown Cherry switches" as the HHKB probably has more soul than a Realforce.
EDIT so here's an example of some of the weirdness I am getting - right Alt.
Ctrl + RtAlt + Fn-Del = acts as should
RtAlt + Fn-F4 = does not close window
LtAlt + Fn-F4 = closes window
????????????????????
I have Mac mode on, Left meta to Fn, and delete to backspace. So my DIP orientation is 011100.
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EDIT so here's an example of some of the weirdness I am getting - right Alt.
RtAlt + Fn-F4 = does not close window
Sounds like right Alt is acting as AltGr, so this may be normal. I get the same on any keyboard. I'm using Colemak atm.
If I change to US layout, right Alt F4 works. (Might need to change setting for the app and the default.)
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I mean, I really like perfection too... just saying that the Filco can't really be 'compared' to the HHKB.
Though I should be saying "Topre switches" and "Brown Cherry switches" as the HHKB probably has more soul than a Realforce.
I tend to agree with you on one point. At first I did not like the Brown Cherry switches either but after typing on a Topre for a while to develop the lighter touch needed for the Browns then going back and trying them again I like them much better. And yes I can feel the bump on the Browns as well. It takes more time on the Topre's too feel the bump on them because it is even more subtle than the Browns. But I still don't really like the Blues and I'm not completely sure why I just don't. Maybe the click maybe not but I don't seem to be able to convince my fingers to type with confidence on them.
EDIT so here's an example of some of the weirdness I am getting - right Alt.
Ctrl + RtAlt + Fn-Del = acts as should
RtAlt + Fn-F4 = does not close window
LtAlt + Fn-F4 = closes window
????????????????????
I have Mac mode on, Left meta to Fn, and delete to backspace. So my DIP orientation is 011100.
Try 101100 and see how that works. The only difference with the Lite Ext mode and Mac mode is the Escape key stays escape and Backspace stays Backspace instead of Clear but is is a PC mode instead of a Mac mode so should help with the Function keys. Oh you also loose the Mac media keys as well.
EDIT: Forgot to add I got lucky and also received the HHKB Pro wrist rest with mine :) Which fits it perfectly but a close second that you can get from Elitekeyboards is the Filco tenkeyless wrist rest which is only about 2 - 2.5 inches longer than the HHKB Pro so works better than one of the full size rests.
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Great follow-up Andrew,
At first, I took the Filco out of the box only to do a rollover test (with disappointing results) and basic functionality tests. For some reason it is VERY picky about USB ports though, I thought it was broken for a long time.
What kind of rollover were you expecting with a Non-NKRO board?
Also, I've never heard of the FILCO being picky about USB ports, it's a straight USB HID keyboard with low power draw, what setup did you encounter problems with?
Why is my Filco logo all scratched when I look at it in direct light?
I'm sorry about this, I've seen this on a couple boards and I've requested Diatec to work on improving it, though it is a plastic logo made to look metallic, so I don't know if I'm asking for too much.
It's like the Filco has character where the HHKB is soulless perfection.
I kind of feel the same way, but reflected upon the typer. Typing on a board with Topre switches demands that you sit up straight and have proper form, while typing on on brown cherries you can slouch and let some of your bad typing habits loose (and enjoy it).
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rdjack,
what is alt-gr!? EDIT looked it up and that explains what i have seen sometimes. i am tempted to keep it since i have no numpad for ALT codes, but on the other hand, why?
anyway ill try lite extension... cant get the media keys to work in windows anyway, and if im going to have to do something manually, mind as well be hotkeys.
hopefully i can work out how to get my wrist-rest under my mouse hand. otherwise i guess i have space on the left to rest my left hand on while... picking up a drink?
majestouch,
the rollover thing, i expected (read 'hoped') for like 4 keys in some places, maybe 2 or 3 if i looked, but even on the WASD cluster i can't get 4. i know i should have ordered the NKRO if i was gaming, and i have the HHKB for that, the filco is just a sidekick right now.
usb... well, i started by plugging it into my hub. lights flash, then never come back on, keyboard didn't work. tried directly into computer (laptop), in 2 diff places... same thing. restarted to linux... same thing! take it next door to use someone else's comp, plug it into his hub... same thing. directly into his computer... works! at least it's not the keyboard. so i come back to mine and try the only thing i haven't tried yet, the BACK of the hub. this works. but directly in does not. it makes no sense. i had the opposite problem with my mouse in linux.
i thought the logo was metal? oh well. but still, at least i know it wasn't just me. no need for an apology, hate to admit now that i actually never ended up placing an order from Elite because of my ebay finds... but i already know through here and my email nagging that it IS the one place to go as far as actual stores are concerned.
the lazy typing is probably very true. when i try to sit up straight and type anyhow it feels odd, i am usually laid back with hands rested on the rest.
but yeah, the NKRO, i know i totally get what i deserve and all, i was just 'hoping' for more like 4 average.
havent used EITHER for games yet, and i dont think NKRO matters for typing...
EDIT also a quick follow up to the earlier discussion about the QIDO (qwerty in, dvorak out device) that we were talking about earlier, just got an email back!
Dear Andrew
Sorry for the delayed reply and thanks for your interest in our QIDO device.
There have been several requests for supporting Colemak. I have passed the feedback to our engineers.
They are currently looking at adding support for programmer's Dvorak (which is proving difficult), but I'll ask them to look into the Colemak layout.
I have mentioned that there is interest in a fully customisable version and also the request for internal storage.
Please let me know if you have any questions or comments.
--
Kind Regards,
Theo Kerdemelidis
Marketing Director, KeyGhost Ltd