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geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: ideus on Sat, 14 February 2015, 20:39:21

Title: Symbiosis.
Post by: ideus on Sat, 14 February 2015, 20:39:21

Warning: I am not related with either the set designer nor SP. I just want to get some feedback from the community on it. If a moderator consider this inappropriate feel free to lock, delete or anything that you think is the right thing to do, and tell me my penitence to get pardon. :)
I think the designer is not a GH member, but I may be wrong.
The set looks similar to spherical round 4 and 5 by 7bit, but this set is flat. What called my attention if the reproduction of the special characters on the alphas, that look interesting, and I think it is a first, does someone know if there has been any previous similar set offered before?
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: trizkut on Sat, 14 February 2015, 20:43:12
A picture would help:

(http://pimpmykeyboard.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Symbiosis_base_kit1.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/sgFNkjM.jpg)
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: brimborion on Sat, 14 February 2015, 21:15:59
Do any modern Lisp implementations use glyphs for truth and mathematics anymore?
The arrows on HJKL are useful though.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: ideus on Sat, 14 February 2015, 21:45:57
Quote from: brimborion on Sat, 14 February 2015, 21:15:59
Do any modern Lisp implementations use glyphs for truth and mathematics anymore?
The arrows on HJKL are useful though.

So those are Lisp glyphs?
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: Jokrik on Sat, 14 February 2015, 22:11:01
I love the 7bit sph r4, other than the failed modifier length (one of the reason I sold it)

But here, that different font colors between the modifiers is kinda bothering me as well hmmpphh
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 14 February 2015, 23:42:43
Quote from: ideus on Sat, 14 February 2015, 21:45:57
Quote from: brimborion on Sat, 14 February 2015, 21:15:59
Do any modern Lisp implementations use glyphs for truth and mathematics anymore?
The arrows on HJKL are useful though.

So those are Lisp glyphs?

Try saying that 5 times quickly :p
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: brimborion on Sun, 15 February 2015, 00:17:55
Quote from: ideus on Sat, 14 February 2015, 21:45:57
Quote from: brimborion on Sat, 14 February 2015, 21:15:59
Do any modern Lisp implementations use glyphs for truth and mathematics anymore?
The arrows on HJKL are useful though.

So those are Lisp glyphs?

Well, I made that term up. They are mathematical and logic symbols, but I think I was confused about how they were used.

Symbolics made a Lisp machine that ran Genera, and I was thinking, perhaps the logical AND symbol could be typed instead of AND. But I am thinking that these symbols were used in literal strings as is to represent mathematical expressions.

The Symbolics keycaps aren't similar to those used on the Symbolics Lisp machines, but instead the Symbolics-branded "Space Cadet" keyboards used on the MIT CADR machines. The Genera reference lists different Symbol+Key combinations and the keyboards for the Symbolics machines didn't have the logical symbols or the front-printed Greek letters.

I think the Symbolics Lisp machines had these keyboards: http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/kbd-older.html (http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/kbd-older.html)

Maybe someone who was at MIT or used Symbolics Genera can chime in and offset my ignorance.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: brimborion on Sun, 15 February 2015, 00:18:47
Quote from: brimborion on Sun, 15 February 2015, 00:17:55
Quote from: ideus on Sat, 14 February 2015, 21:45:57
Quote from: brimborion on Sat, 14 February 2015, 21:15:59
Do any modern Lisp implementations use glyphs for truth and mathematics anymore?
The arrows on HJKL are useful though.

So those are Lisp glyphs?

Well, I made that term up. They are mathematical and logic symbols, but I think I was confused about how they were used.

Symbolics made a Lisp machine that ran Genera, and I was thinking, perhaps the logical AND symbol could be typed instead of AND in a Lisp S-expression. But I am thinking that these symbols were used in literal strings as is to represent mathematical expressions.

The Symbolics keycaps aren't similar to those used on the Symbolics Lisp machines, but instead the Symbolics-branded "Space Cadet" keyboards used on the MIT CADR machines. The Genera reference lists different Symbol+Key combinations and the keyboards for the Symbolics machines didn't have the logical symbols or the front-printed Greek letters.

I think the Symbolics Lisp machines had these keyboards: http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/kbd-older.html (http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/kbd-older.html)

Maybe someone who was at MIT or used Symbolics Genera can chime in and offset my ignorance.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: chrisq on Tue, 17 February 2015, 03:30:15
I will have this set, it's easily in the top 3 most awesome sets ever.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: chrisq on Tue, 17 February 2015, 03:46:53
Also... Why isn't this hyped more?
All Row 3 SA is signature platics best mold: Thick, multiple layouts and old school look.  :eek:
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: ideus on Tue, 17 February 2015, 07:16:45
Quote from: chrisq on Tue, 17 February 2015, 03:46:53
Also... Why isn't this hyped more?
All Row 3 SA is signature platics best mold: Thick, multiple layouts and old school look.  :eek:

It seems that the designer is not a member of GH, and nobody here appears to know him, therefore no one is supporting the proposal. In the other hand he has not been responsive for comments at the SP site either, so he is disconnected of the community, at least our community. While I like the color and overall design, the set does not have the keys I need, and the designer is not taking any feedback, therefore it is a matter of take it or leave it as it is.

The more successful group buys have been ran by well connected and communicative people, that takes feedback well, I can think in Sir Bunny, and Sir Matt3o as examples. In this case we have exactly the opposite, and that may be related with the low interest in the set and low orders count, at least here at GH, it may be a different situation at r/mk or DT, or somewhere else.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 17 February 2015, 07:28:25
For those like me who had no idea wtf this thread is about, Symbiosis is a current GB for SA row 3 keycaps on PMK.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: ideus on Tue, 17 February 2015, 07:30:11
Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 17 February 2015, 07:28:25
For those like me who had no idea wtf this thread is about, Symbiosis is a current GB for SA row 3 keycaps on PMK.

I do not want to point that directly because this is not for the purpose of promoting it in any way. Actually, I am considering to lock the thread. By the way, I am not into the GB.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 17 February 2015, 07:32:27
So you want to talk and complain about a GB but you don't want anyone to know what you're talking about? Makes a lot of sense...
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: ideus on Tue, 17 February 2015, 07:34:45
Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 17 February 2015, 07:32:27
So you want to talk and complain about a GB but you don't want anyone to know what you're talking about? Makes a lot of sense...

Complaining comes second, after at least other guy posted about the GB directly, but first was the idea just to get some feedback on the design. But it seems is getting more confusing now.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: engicoder on Tue, 17 February 2015, 07:34:47
I'm kind of surprised the price isn't higher considering the custom legends...unless those symbols are already in SP's bag of tricks.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Tue, 17 February 2015, 08:10:59
Quote from: ideus on Tue, 17 February 2015, 07:34:45
Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 17 February 2015, 07:32:27
So you want to talk and complain about a GB but you don't want anyone to know what you're talking about? Makes a lot of sense...

Complaining comes second, after at least other guy posted about the GB directly, but first was the idea just to get some feedback on the design. But it seems is getting more confusing now.

Was the thread created to discuss the bit quoted below?  (As opposed to discussing the Group Buy portion of things)   I ask because a GB discussion would belong in a different subforum, whereas keycap design discussion does indeed belong here.   :thumb:

Quote from: ideus on Sat, 14 February 2015, 20:39:21
What called my attention if the reproduction of the special characters on the alphas, that look interesting, and I think it is a first, does someone know if there has been any previous similar set offered before?
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: rpeterclark on Tue, 17 February 2015, 11:41:05
I am really happy with this guy's last PMK set, EVE. He seems to just design what he wants and not worry too much about getting community input, which is of course up to him. He seems to have had moderate success doing so. I'll pick this set up too (if it reaches MOQ), the symbols are just too unique to pass up.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Tue, 17 February 2015, 11:51:31
Quote from: rpeterclark on Tue, 17 February 2015, 11:41:05
I am really happy with this guy's last PMK set, EVE. He seems to just design what he wants and not worry too much about getting community input, which is of course up to him. He seems to have had moderate success doing so. I'll pick this set up too (if it reaches MOQ), the symbols are just too unique to pass up.

Who is "this guy"? Is he active on reddit as opposed to GH? This thread is lacking all sorts of context and sources/links.   :confused:
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: rpeterclark on Tue, 17 February 2015, 11:59:27
Quote from: HoffmanMyster on Tue, 17 February 2015, 11:51:31
Quote from: rpeterclark on Tue, 17 February 2015, 11:41:05
I am really happy with this guy's last PMK set, EVE. He seems to just design what he wants and not worry too much about getting community input, which is of course up to him. He seems to have had moderate success doing so. I'll pick this set up too (if it reaches MOQ), the symbols are just too unique to pass up.

Who is "this guy"? Is he active on reddit as opposed to GH? This thread is lacking all sorts of context and sources/links.   :confused:

Yeah, good question. I know about as much about him as anyone else it seems. He appears to be active at r/mk (https://www.reddit.com/user/xblackdog/) although I can't say that I see him around there much either. Maybe he's like me, an avid enthusiast that prefers to lurk. :-)
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: jdcarpe on Tue, 17 February 2015, 12:07:39
What about the front printed legends? Missing?

(http://i.imgur.com/K2xjG4o.jpg)


Also, to be a true replica, this should be in contoured profile, 3-1-2-3-4-3 style.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: ideus on Tue, 17 February 2015, 12:55:33
This thread is just to get some feedback on the design, it is not to promote the GB, as I stated in the disclaimer / warning in the OP: I am not related to the designer nor SP neither the GB; I am not buying a set either, it lacks some keys I need, and my wallet is stuck with GMK GBs for now. The lack of references is intentional, and the lack of links is obliged.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: ideus on Tue, 17 February 2015, 13:05:49
Please discuss the caps design, and keep the GB related stuff out. Otherwise, a moderator may move, or close the thread. Or, I should luck it myself.


All gifs are welcome though. I love them.






[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Tue, 17 February 2015, 13:09:06
Quote from: ideus on Tue, 17 February 2015, 13:05:49
Please discuss the caps design, and keep the GB related stuff out. Otherwise, a moderator may move, or close the thread. Or, I should luck it myself.

No need to lock it, we can discuss the cap design, that's fine.   :thumb:

And you are definitely able to post links to a discussion about the set to provide context.  Not sure if you didn't do that for fear of breaking rules, but it's fine to post links for discussion purpose.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 17 February 2015, 13:10:50
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: ideus on Tue, 17 February 2015, 14:50:47
Thank you for the explanation, I do not want to get the mods mad...


[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: 7bit on Sun, 22 February 2015, 04:18:58
Buy them cheaper here:
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/4/4e/HONEYB_TKL_CADET.png) (http://deskthority.net/wiki/R5a)
HONEYB/TKL/CADET
Price: $82

(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/8/80/HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png)
HONEYB/SPACE625/SPH
Price: $2

(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/6/6f/HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png)
HONEYB/SPACE625/BLUE
Price: $2

Shipping is $7 no matter how many keys or kits you order!
:-)
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 22 February 2015, 08:34:31
Kinda dumb that this new set didn’t match colors with 7bit’s.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: ideus on Sun, 22 February 2015, 08:38:20
Show Image
Quote from: 7bit on Sun, 22 February 2015, 04:18:58
Buy them cheaper here:
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/4/4e/HONEYB_TKL_CADET.png) (http://deskthority.net/wiki/R5a)
HONEYB/TKL/CADET
Price: $82

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/8/80/HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png)

HONEYB/SPACE625/SPH
Price: $2

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/6/6f/HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png)

HONEYB/SPACE625/BLUE
Price: $2

Shipping is $7 no matter how many keys or kits you order!
:-)


Thus, symbiosis is a simple copy.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: atectatifern on Mon, 23 February 2015, 05:42:56
Do you mean that Symbiosis is a copy of the Space Cadet keyboard or that it's a copy of the 7-bit group buy? If the latter, I think the originator deserves the benefit of the doubt--not being active here and therefore possibly not on Deskthority either, he might not have been aware that it was included in 7-bit's GB.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 23 February 2015, 05:50:45
Show Image
Quote from: 7bit on Sun, 22 February 2015, 04:18:58
Buy them cheaper here:
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/4/4e/HONEYB_TKL_CADET.png) (http://deskthority.net/wiki/R5a)
HONEYB/TKL/CADET
Price: $82

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/8/80/HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png)

HONEYB/SPACE625/SPH
Price: $2

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/6/6f/HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png)

HONEYB/SPACE625/BLUE
Price: $2

Shipping is $7 no matter how many keys or kits you order!
:-)

^^This is so much more awesome, and cheaper to boot! :) But those undersized row 4 Shifts.... sigh.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: ideus on Mon, 23 February 2015, 07:11:50
Quote from: atectatifern on Mon, 23 February 2015, 05:42:56
Do you mean that Symbiosis is a copy of the Space Cadet keyboard or that it's a copy of the 7-bit group buy? If the latter, I think the originator deserves the benefit of the doubt--not being active here and therefore possibly not on Deskthority either, he might not have been aware that it was included in 7-bit's GB.


This is not a trial and the guy who did symbiosis is not a felon, it is just that the proposal is too similar to 7-bit's.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: atectatifern on Mon, 23 February 2015, 09:27:56
Glad to hear it wasn't an accusation -- must just be what I read into it.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: jdcarpe on Mon, 23 February 2015, 09:35:16
Quote from: Oobly on Mon, 23 February 2015, 05:50:45
Show Image
Quote from: 7bit on Sun, 22 February 2015, 04:18:58
Buy them cheaper here:
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/4/4e/HONEYB_TKL_CADET.png) (http://deskthority.net/wiki/R5a)
HONEYB/TKL/CADET
Price: $82

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/8/80/HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png)

HONEYB/SPACE625/SPH
Price: $2

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/6/6f/HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png)

HONEYB/SPACE625/BLUE
Price: $2

Shipping is $7 no matter how many keys or kits you order!
:-)

^^This is so much more awesome, and cheaper to boot! :) But those undersized row 4 Shifts.... sigh.

Undersized Row 4 Shifts? I'm pretty sure he would go with the correctly sized Row 3 Shifts, instead. Maybe 7bit can clarify.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 24 February 2015, 04:16:41
Quote from: jdcarpe on Mon, 23 February 2015, 09:35:16
Quote from: Oobly on Mon, 23 February 2015, 05:50:45
Show Image
Quote from: 7bit on Sun, 22 February 2015, 04:18:58
Buy them cheaper here:
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/4/4e/HONEYB_TKL_CADET.png) (http://deskthority.net/wiki/R5a)
HONEYB/TKL/CADET
Price: $82

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/8/80/HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png)

HONEYB/SPACE625/SPH
Price: $2

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/6/6f/HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png)

HONEYB/SPACE625/BLUE
Price: $2

Shipping is $7 no matter how many keys or kits you order!
:-)

^^This is so much more awesome, and cheaper to boot! :) But those undersized row 4 Shifts.... sigh.

Undersized Row 4 Shifts? I'm pretty sure he would go with the correctly sized Row 3 Shifts, instead. Maybe 7bit can clarify.

I was remembering the pics I'd seen of early Round 4 sets. Didn't know they'd replaced them with full size later or that all the mods are Row 3. I do now, though. Thanks. :)

I may just have to get a set of those.... Seems to be a good compromise. Although I also like how PuLSE looks with the mods all Row 3 from the middle row down, but contoured on the upper rows. I just love SA profile :) I wonder if, once SP has the Row 4 molds in use, these earlier "non-conforming" sets will be considered rare or just inferior...
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: chrisq on Tue, 24 February 2015, 07:35:55
Quote from: ideus on Sun, 22 February 2015, 08:38:20
Show Image
Quote from: 7bit on Sun, 22 February 2015, 04:18:58
Buy them cheaper here:
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/4/4e/HONEYB_TKL_CADET.png) (http://deskthority.net/wiki/R5a)
HONEYB/TKL/CADET
Price: $82

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/8/80/HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png)

HONEYB/SPACE625/SPH
Price: $2

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/6/6f/HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png)

HONEYB/SPACE625/BLUE
Price: $2

Shipping is $7 no matter how many keys or kits you order!
:-)


Thus, symbiosis is a simple copy.

Well I think we'd have to agree that both the symbiosis and the 7bit gb are variations of the original space cadet.
None of them are identical to the original, and the new sets have differences as well.
Personally I prefer the adjusted arrow-keys of symbiosis, which now match the Vim movement keys  :thumb:

As for the 7bit buys on DT, I find them difficult to navigate and understand, unlike any other gb I've been part of.
The enormous walls of text and the instructions for ordering are just unbelievable, anything would be better.

That being said, I'm sure 7bit does a great service for the part of the community that accepts his ways.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: ideus on Tue, 24 February 2015, 07:40:09
Quote from: chrisq on Tue, 24 February 2015, 07:35:55
Quote from: ideus on Sun, 22 February 2015, 08:38:20
Show Image
Quote from: 7bit on Sun, 22 February 2015, 04:18:58
Buy them cheaper here:
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/4/4e/HONEYB_TKL_CADET.png) (http://deskthority.net/wiki/R5a)
HONEYB/TKL/CADET
Price: $82

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/8/80/HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_SPH.png)

HONEYB/SPACE625/SPH
Price: $2

Show Image
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/thumb/6/6f/HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png/300px-HONEYB_SPACE625_BLUE.png)

HONEYB/SPACE625/BLUE
Price: $2

Shipping is $7 no matter how many keys or kits you order!
:-)


Thus, symbiosis is a simple copy.

Well I think we'd have to agree that both the symbiosis and the 7bit gb are variations of the original space cadet.
None of them are identical to the original, and the new sets have differences as well.
Personally I prefer the adjusted arrow-keys of symbiosis, which now match the Vim movement keys  :thumb:

As for the 7bit buys on DT, I find them difficult to navigate and understand, unlike any other gb I've been part of.
The enormous walls of text and the instructions for ordering are just unbelievable, anything would be better.

That being said, I'm sure 7bit does a great service for the part of the community that accepts his ways.


The complexity of 7bit group buy could be intimidating.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: Pep on Wed, 25 February 2015, 21:36:24
7bit's is great, but I also like Symbiosis better.  Symbiosis has the nice hjkl arrow change, and most importantly for me, all row3, because I don't use qwerty so I need a flat profile.  I only wish there were some 1u blanks or 1u mods offered, so that I could use on a custom board.  Also, have you seen the RUB OUT key? lol
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: ideus on Wed, 25 February 2015, 21:37:44
Quote from: Pep on Wed, 25 February 2015, 21:36:24
7bit's is great, but I also like Symbiosis better.  Symbiosis has the nice hjkl arrow change, and most importantly for me, all row3, because I don't use qwerty so I need a flat profile.  I only wish there were some 1u blanks or 1u mods offered, so that I could use on a custom board.  Also, have you seen the RUB OUT key? lol


The rub out key is cool.
Title: Re: Symbiosis.
Post by: hking0036 on Thu, 26 February 2015, 12:47:38
Quote from: ideus on Wed, 25 February 2015, 21:37:44
Quote from: Pep on Wed, 25 February 2015, 21:36:24
7bit's is great, but I also like Symbiosis better.  Symbiosis has the nice hjkl arrow change, and most importantly for me, all row3, because I don't use qwerty so I need a flat profile.  I only wish there were some 1u blanks or 1u mods offered, so that I could use on a custom board.  Also, have you seen the RUB OUT key? lol


The rub out key is cool.
Yeah, enters and backspaces in general with silly phrases are fun sometimes.