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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 18 February 2015, 21:56:12

Title: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 18 February 2015, 21:56:12: Anyone have any experience with aged cherry mx blacks?
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: demik on Wed, 18 February 2015, 21:56:57: black dont crack
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: Zeal on Wed, 18 February 2015, 21:57:26: Gateron blacks have optimal girth.
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: ShardZer0 on Wed, 18 February 2015, 21:59:58: "and now to tell us more about aged blacks, Jimmy The Greek."
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: DrHubblePhD on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:01:32: I once hated an MX black so much that I stepped on it a bunch, does that count?
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: demik on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:08:43: Quote from: DrHubblePhD on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:01:32
I once hated an MX black so much that I stepped on it a bunch, does that count?

don't be a **** and use the mod team account
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: DrHubblePhD on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:09:28: Quote from: demik on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:08:43
Quote from: DrHubblePhD on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:01:32
I once hated an MX black so much that I stepped on it a bunch, does that count?

Mod edit: not okay...

reported
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: demik on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:09:58: first thing that came to mind, racist.
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: phoenix1234 on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:19:02: Quote from: SpAmRaY on Wed, 18 February 2015, 21:56:12
Anyone have any experience with aged cherry mx blacks?

I do. For me, the best one so far is this batch:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55397.msg1243615#msg1243615
They are aged Cherry MX blacks that I harvested from the keyboard TG3 BL82A.
Unlike the new Cherry MX Black stems, the old ones are very smooth, the stems are shiny and sleeky.
They are somehow comparable to the Vintage Cherry MX black.
So I can confirm that the aged Cherry MX blacks are much more better than the new ones.
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: FrostyToast on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:20:52: I have not tried vintage blacks, but my black on my 2100 are smooth as ****.
I believe my board was made in 1994.
Pretty much all of the keys are as shiny as mirrors which is really telling of how much they have been broken in.

Now I just want to see how smooth vintage Gatorades are. :p
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:30:29: Quote from: FrostyToast on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:20:52
Now I just want to see how smooth vintage Gatorades are. :p

Vintage 2015
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: DrHubblePhD on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:41:23: Quote from: FrostyToast on Wed, 18 February 2015, 22:20:52
I have not tried vintage blacks, but my black on my 2100 are smooth as ****.
I believe my board was made in 1994.
Pretty much all of the keys are as shiny as mirrors which is really telling of how much they have been broken in.

Now I just want to see how smooth vintage Gatorades are. :p

I have some NIB vintage gateron clears I could sell you :cool:
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: Novus on Thu, 19 February 2015, 00:55:25: Hmm I'm thinking about getting an MX black keyboard.
Maybe I should get one of them aged old blacks.
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: Wilba on Thu, 19 February 2015, 00:59:56: I have a bag of about 200 Cherry MX blacks that I bought 5 years ago for a project that never eventuated... do they count as aged?
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 February 2015, 09:17:49: Quote from: the1onewolf on Thu, 19 February 2015, 00:55:25
Hmm I'm thinking about getting an MX black keyboard.
Maybe I should get one of them aged old blacks.

You should, take the ones that have been heavily used, they should have all smooth parts.
I took these pictures for comparison.
(http://i.imgur.com/6yXMlLn.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Q5Ks0zH.jpg)
*The right* one is the old and used Cherry MX Black stem.
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: Oobly on Thu, 19 February 2015, 09:39:25: Quote from: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 February 2015, 09:17:49
Quote from: the1onewolf on Thu, 19 February 2015, 00:55:25
Hmm I'm thinking about getting an MX black keyboard.
Maybe I should get one of them aged old blacks.

You should, take the ones that have been heavily used, they should have all smooth parts.
I took these pictures for comparison.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/6yXMlLn.jpg)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/Q5Ks0zH.jpg)

*The right* one is the old and used Cherry MX Black stem.

Those pics are very interesting. One thing bothers me, though. The parts that don't make contact with the case or contact leaf are also a lot smoother on the older slider...
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 February 2015, 09:43:22: Someone needs to set up a testing jig and some switches and run them through a few millions key presses to see if we can literally 'age' the new switches to see if we can get similar results. This could turn out to be an art form....aging switches, just like people age meats and cheeses. :eek:
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: Lastpilot on Thu, 19 February 2015, 09:47:27: Quote from: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 February 2015, 09:17:49
Quote from: the1onewolf on Thu, 19 February 2015, 00:55:25
Hmm I'm thinking about getting an MX black keyboard.
Maybe I should get one of them aged old blacks.

You should, take the ones that have been heavily used, they should have all smooth parts.
I took these pictures for comparison.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/6yXMlLn.jpg)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/Q5Ks0zH.jpg)

*The right* one is the old and used Cherry MX Black stem.

That's sort of a weird example because it looks smooth all over, not just at the contact points. Are you sure it's not a vintage black?

Edit: Oobly beat me to it lol.

Also I guess this is kind of useful information for those reading this topic: Cherry confirmed that the material for stems has not changed, but the tooling has. So it's possible that the tooling for the molds was changed and resulted in a more textured/scratchy stem all around.

Quote
Did the material in Black stems change over time? If so, are there known dates as to when the material was changed?

"No, it has been the same proven materia[l] every time. The fluctuations are caused by the different tools we‘re using here in the production. But we always optimize our production processes to realize a standardized stem quality. " link (http://www.corsair.com/en/blog/2014/march/cherry-faq-answers)
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 February 2015, 09:49:57: Quote from: Oobly on Thu, 19 February 2015, 09:39:25
Those pics are very interesting. One thing bothers me, though. The parts that don't make contact with the case or contact leaf are also a lot smoother on the older slider...

I understand your point. That's also one of the points that I concern when I distinct them.
However, if we take a look closer to the old stems, we can see the inconsistent of the worn points and indeed there are several unworn/less worn points.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: Jixr on Thu, 19 February 2015, 10:00:26: I have a 3 year old keyboard that has been used for 40+ hours a week at work.

Next to my vintage blacks, I can't tell the difference between the two. Well broken in blacks are just as good as vintage IMO
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 February 2015, 10:01:14: Quote from: Lastpilot on Thu, 19 February 2015, 09:47:27
Quote from: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 February 2015, 09:17:49
Quote from: the1onewolf on Thu, 19 February 2015, 00:55:25
Hmm I'm thinking about getting an MX black keyboard.
Maybe I should get one of them aged old blacks.

You should, take the ones that have been heavily used, they should have all smooth parts.
I took these pictures for comparison.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/6yXMlLn.jpg)

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/Q5Ks0zH.jpg)

*The right* one is the old and used Cherry MX Black stem.

That's sort of a weird example because it looks smooth all over, not just at the contact points. Are you sure it's not a vintage black?

Edit: Oobly beat me to it lol.

Also I guess this is kind of useful information for those reading this topic: Cherry confirmed that the material for stems has not changed, but the tooling has. So it's possible that the tooling for the molds was changed and resulted in a more textured/scratchy stem all around.

Quote
Did the material in Black stems change over time? If so, are there known dates as to when the material was changed?

"No, it has been the same proven materia[l] every time. The fluctuations are caused by the different tools we‘re using here in the production. But we always optimize our production processes to realize a standardized stem quality. " link (http://www.corsair.com/en/blog/2014/march/cherry-faq-answers)

To be honest, I want to believe what Cherry confirmed but as you can see in the below picture, they are quite different but I agreed on the tooling point. Based on what I harvested, I only consider the stems that have the number on the back are the Cherry MX Vintage Black and indeed they are extremely smooth.

[attachimg=1]
Vintage Black - old Cherry MX Black - brand new Cherry MX Black
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: MythicalWagyu on Thu, 19 February 2015, 10:08:07: Quote from: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 February 2015, 09:43:22
Someone needs to set up a testing jig and some switches and run them through a few millions key presses to see if we can literally 'age' the new switches to see if we can get similar results. This could turn out to be an art form....aging switches, just like people age meats and cheeses. :eek:
Let's go steal Razer's testing machine and age some switches!
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: Lastpilot on Thu, 19 February 2015, 10:08:48: Quote from: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 February 2015, 10:01:14
To be honest, I want to believe what Cherry confirmed but as you can see in the below picture, they are quite different. Based on what I harvested, I only consider the stems that have the number on the back are the Cherry MX Vintage Black and indeed they are extremely smooth.

(Attachment Link)
Vintage Black - old Cherry MX Black - brand new Cherry MX Black

Not sure if you read my post, but this does not contradict what Cherry said. Tooling changes can definitely affect how smooth or rough the end product is. You can have the exact same mold made of different material and it will affect the texture of the final product.

This is especially possible now that the demand for mechanical keyboards has gone up, Cherry may have updated the tooling to keep up with the demand. So having three different kinds of MX Black is a possibility.
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 February 2015, 10:11:46: Quote from: Lastpilot on Thu, 19 February 2015, 10:08:48

Not sure if you read my post, but this does not contradict what Cherry said. Tooling changes can definitely affect how smooth or rough the end product is. You can have the exact same mold made of different material and it will affect the texture of the final product.

This is especially possible now that the demand for mechanical keyboards has gone up, Cherry may have updated the tooling to keep up with the demand. So having three different kinds of MX Black is a possibility.

I'm sorry that I did not state clearly that I agree on the tooling point but I still believe the material of Vintage Black and modern black are slight different. The only reason makes me think so is because it seems the volume of Vintage Cherry MX Black is slightly higher but when I weight them, all of them come up with the number 0.25g +/- 0.01 (thanks to the amazing German tooling from Cherry!). However, no mater what Vintage Black is, it will not change the fact that all of Cherry MX Black are great and smooth after the break-in point.
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 February 2015, 11:01:23: Quote from: MythicalWagyu on Thu, 19 February 2015, 10:08:07
Quote from: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 February 2015, 09:43:22
Someone needs to set up a testing jig and some switches and run them through a few millions key presses to see if we can literally 'age' the new switches to see if we can get similar results. This could turn out to be an art form....aging switches, just like people age meats and cheeses. :eek:
Let's go steal Razer's testing machine and age some switches!

Ok, let's do it. :thumb:
But I think Kaihua Electronics (Razer's OEM) "steels" the machine from Cherry Germany :))
@4:32
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: nubbinator on Thu, 19 February 2015, 11:06:14: How long should one age their Blacks before they're good to use?
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 February 2015, 11:07:12: Quote from: nubbinator on Thu, 19 February 2015, 11:06:14
How long should one age their Blacks before they're good to use?

That has yet to be determined....this is new territory....we need research.
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: MythicalWagyu on Thu, 19 February 2015, 11:07:41: Quote from: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 February 2015, 11:01:23
Ok, let's do it. :thumb:
But I think Kaihua Electronics (Razer's OEM) "steels" the machine from Cherry Germany :))
@4:32
(Attachment Link)
Now I feel terrible for posting Razer when there was a Cherry video to be had! :)) *adds to watch later list*
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: Magna224 on Thu, 19 February 2015, 23:07:04: Quote from: SpAmRaY on Wed, 18 February 2015, 21:56:12
Anyone have any experience with aged cherry mx blacks?

Very good condition vintage blacks are one of the smoothest linear switches I have felt. The old used MX blacks I harvested from used WYSE keyboards are just normal MX blacks. Theres is one other I have only felt and not identified. It is very hit and miss though. On like 10 keyboards only 1 is perfect and one other is nice, maybe 4 are vintage black tier and the rest are terrible. They feel a bit ALPSish and that is what I have assumed them to be. Someday maybe one will break and I can steal it from work.. I GBd some Gaterons or whatever to try out too.
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 20 February 2015, 01:38:24: If the density is different, the material is different. Not sure why Cherry would deny it, unless they consider something in the same family of plastics to be the "same material".

Those pics are really awesome, thank you phoenix1234!

Anyhow, I don't think Blacks are the only ones with this "modern" vs "vintage" problem, although the material change would make it more obvious. All the newer Cherry switches are not smooth and need a considerable amount of use to wear in. On the tactile switches at least, heavy keycaps seem to help to mask the scratchiness, although it's still noticable.

Unless the material is very different, there's no reason I can see that really well worn in MX switches can't be as smooth as "proper" vintage Blacks. And I mean ALL the MX types.

I believe most of them show marked improvement after 50-100,000 presses, although I can't recall where I read it / heard it. I've been considering making a machine to "wear in" my Clears for me.
Title: Re: Forget vintage blacks, how about aged blacks?
Post by: Sifo on Fri, 20 February 2015, 01:59:09: I've actually gone the other route to making the scratchiest linear switches possible. I take some glue and mix it up with some sand. Then I take a paintbrush and apply just a tad bit to the sliders on brown stems after filing down the tactile bump. In the meantime I have the springs bathing in a secret solution to rust them.