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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => DIY Discussions ARCHIVE => Topic started by: rdjack21 on Sun, 23 August 2009, 21:02:26

Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 23 August 2009, 21:02:26
Over the last week or so there have been many questions about how a HHKB Pro 2 is different than a Realforce board. Seeing that we did not have a article showing the HHKB Pro 2 opened up and I needed to clean mine any ways I decided to take some pictures of the inside of my HHKB Pro 2. While I had it opened up I took about 30 pictures of the verious aspects of the HHKB Pro 2 that make it different than a Realforce board. For a refreasher of what is inside a Realforce board take look at  Realforce 87U Opened Up (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5697) that ripster did. Mostly ripster was investigating the rubber domes of the 87U versas how it was built so there are no pictures of some of the features that make it different. But there is enough there to see what we will be talking about.

The first thing you will notice when you open the HHKB Pro 2 up is that it does not have a metal plate. The picture below shows it when first opened from the bottom.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3990&stc=1&d=1251070461)
No metal plate but you will find 17 screws holding the PCB to the top of the keyboard.

After you get all those screws out and separate the PCB from the top you will have the PCB with the rubber domes attached. I'm not going to show that picture here but will post it in the discussion section for those that are interested. The PCB of the HHKB and the Realforce are very similar. What makes them different is how the keys are mounted. Here is a picture of the HHKB from the bottom after the PCB has been removed.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3991&stc=1&d=1251075974)
As you can see the key slider housing is actually part of the top keyboard housing. In a Realforce board the keys are mounted to a metal plate and then the top frame goes over that.

Here is the top of the keyboard with all the keys removed.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3992&stc=1&d=1251076218)
You will note that I have removed one of the sliders from the keyboard top. Some things to notice when looking at the picture above.


One last picture since this subject has come up lately as well. The famous Topre  Fart  (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5732).
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3993&stc=1&d=1251077756)
If you look closely at where the dome sits on the PCB you will see some small vent channels moulded into the dome. There are 4 of these vents around the dome. These vents are supposed to prevent the Topre's from Farting or sticking. I will post a picture of the bottom side of the dome in the discussion section.

So now we know what the difference is between a Realforce board and the HHKB Pro 2. It is primarily how the keys are mounted to the PCB. On the Realforce they are plate mounted then the PCB is screwed into the plate. On the HHKB Pro 2 the switch housing is moulded into the keyboard top which then has the PCB screwed to it. But how does this difference affect key feel, key sound, and quality. Key feel does not seem to be affected at all both boards feel pretty much identical to me. Key sound though is different on the Realforce the keys have a deeper tone to them when bottoming them out. On the HHKB Pro 2 the keys are a little higher pitched and don't have as much of the Thunk sound that the Realforces have. Quality is a subjective matter but I really don't think that there is that much of a difference. I think PFU chose plastic for the key mounts in the HHKB Pro due to weight. I think they wanted a light weight board that you could carry around and use on all of your computers. Realforce on the other hand wanted a heavy board that would be attached to a particular computer and stay there.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 23 August 2009, 21:10:09
Ok time for more pictures for those that are interested.

The back of the HHKB Pro 2:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3994&stc=1&d=1251079426)
I think it is kinda of cool that PFU put a picture of the keyboard layout on the back of the board.

Side view of the board for those that are wondering what the curvature of the board is.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3995&stc=1&d=1251079612)

And Hey I have to post a shots of my board after that I will get to the inside shots:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3996&stc=1&d=1251079742)
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 23 August 2009, 21:23:43
Now for pictures of the inside of the board.

A close of how that cable is attached that you will need to remove if you open yours up.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3997&stc=1&d=1251079883)
Their is a ridge on the male connector that you can use to remove the cable. I used a screw driver placed in that gap between the housing of the socket and the ridge. Then just gently turning my screw driver removed the cable with out damage. Don't pull on those wires surface mount female connectors like used here are not as robust as through hole connectors so be gentle and you  will be ok. Oh also do you see that wire protector it will move around before you can put your board back together that will need to be about that far away from than end of the wiring if it moves down the case will not close.

Here we have the domes sitting on top of the PCB:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3998&stc=1&d=1251080317)
Pretty much just like a Realforce board.

Stabiliser under the enter key or left shift. Sorry but I don't remember which one I took the picture of.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3999&stc=1&d=1251080430)

One side of the space bar stabiliser:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4000&stc=1&d=1251080574)
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 23 August 2009, 21:38:35
And more inside shots

This one shows the space bar mount with the spring still on it.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4001&stc=1&d=1251080702)

And the bottom of the space bar
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4002&stc=1&d=1251080803)
This picture is of one end of the space bar. What I'm trying to show with this picture are the stiffeners that are inside of it. Two vertical ones on each side and on horizontal one running from one end of the space bar to the other. Note that the vertical ones come all the way down to the edge of the key. I'm not entirely sure exactly where the space bar is hitting those bumpers but I think it is that vertical support next to the stabiliser mount that is hitting it.

Dome from the bottom:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4003&stc=1&d=1251081142)
Note those air channels. ripster has posted a similar shot of the underside of a 87U dome and they look identical.

Dome mounted in a key with spring
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4004&stc=1&d=1251081284)
Notice how the dome fits snugly into the key housing and it is keyed. If you rotated that dome 90 degrees it would not fit correctly. That picture alone made me understand why the enter and left shift key domes are rotated.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 23 August 2009, 21:43:24
Ok just a few more and I'm done.

Inside the key housing with the plunger/slider removed
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4005&stc=1&d=1251081627)

The plunger
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4006&stc=1&d=1251081685)

A collapsed and bottomed out dome:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4007&stc=1&d=1251081749)
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 23 August 2009, 21:52:29
If you have ever opened up a rubber dome board before one of the things you will notice about the Topre domes is that they are not made out of the same material that other rubber domes are made out of. I trully believe that the rubber they do use has a very big impact on why these boards feel so distict and different from pretty much every thing else out there. But I have no clue as to what that material is but it feels denser and more rubbery than anything else I've touched. But I don't think it is natural rubber it is something else.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: o2dazone on Sun, 23 August 2009, 21:54:28
Amazing work! Looking at your last photo it really shows the "soft landing". Nice to see all that squeak-resistant goop underneath the board on the stabilizer.

You've also got brass ones tearing it down like that
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 23 August 2009, 22:11:48
Other than that cable sleeve sliping down and not allowing me to close it back up. It was a piece of cake to take apart and put back together again. The only dome that came off was the space bar dome. So I did not have the issue of springs flying all over the place like ripster did. But in all reality their is really no reason to take one apart unless you are just curious. For cleaning you only really need to just take the keys off because it is pretty well sealed up.

But I will most likely take it apart again once I get that 3mm key travel board. I want to see if the domes are the same.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: o2dazone on Sun, 23 August 2009, 22:15:23
Nice nice, and yeah keep us posted.

When I was swapping keytops, I noticed how clean everything was. No switch mounted pcb to clean around or anything like that. Truly designed to long term in mind :P
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdh on Sun, 23 August 2009, 23:01:35
Quote from: rdjack21;111498
The back of the HHKB Pro 2:
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3994&stc=1&d=1251079426)

I think it is kinda of cool that PFU put a picture of the keyboard layout on the back of the board.


Quote from: rdh;111315
I have an HHKB Pro, not a Pro 2.  I believe the dip switches are identical, but I could be mistaken.




Happily, I was not mistaken.  :-)
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 23 August 2009, 23:11:42
Cool that's nice to know. I almost got one of those on Yahoo Japan last week but some one snipped me :mad:. Who ever got it got it for a good price though. I keep thinking if I'm going to be buying boards on Yahoo Japan I may have to write myself some snipe software that can work with the buying services. But then I think na I'm not going to be buying enough to justify the effort. And I've learned my lesson I just set my max bid high enough that I don't get sniped and I don't place it until the last day as close to the end of the bid as I can.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdh on Sun, 23 August 2009, 23:49:05
Quote from: rdjack21;111519
Cool that's nice to know. I almost got one of those on Yahoo Japan last week but some one snipped me :mad:.


The Pro and Pro 2 are so nearly identical, that I personally wouldn't bother.
On the other hand, it's your collection, not mine.  

The only difference between the two, as far as I can tell, is the USB ports they added to the Pro 2.  

Can anyone confirm that's the only difference?

(I've only managed to spot two Geekhackers that own both. :-)
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: kyamei on Mon, 24 August 2009, 00:02:45
Those key layout pictures on the back of the board were not put there by PFU but rather by whoever you bought that board from.  I remember seeing another member posting those pictures here for that purpose sometime last year.

EDIT: Found it (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=4754) and thanks for reminding me about that picture, *saves*
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 00:33:40
Thanks for all the detailed pictures for the HHKB Pro 2! Also, thanks for answering my questions regarding the "farts" =D

By the way, are you sure the pictures are supposed to be on the back of the keyboard to show the layout? Why don't I have those pictures? lol

(http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp129/watduzhkstand4/Keyboard%20and%20Mouse/IMG_0232.jpg)
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: xyzzy on Mon, 24 August 2009, 03:32:30
Quote from: watduzhkstand4;111528
By the way, are you sure the pictures are supposed to be on the back of the keyboard to show the layout? Why don't I have those pictures? lol


The answer is a couple of posts above yours, I guess you missed it :)

Quote from: kyamei;111526
Those key layout pictures on the back of the board were not put there by PFU but rather by whoever you bought that board from.  I remember seeing another member posting those pictures here for that purpose sometime last year.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 09:10:44
My bad! lol. But it would be nice to just include a picture in the box even if it wasn't on the keyboard itself.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 09:33:27
Quote from: kyamei;111526
Those key layout pictures on the back of the board were not put there by PFU but rather by whoever you bought that board from.  I remember seeing another member posting those pictures here for that purpose sometime last year.

EDIT: Found it (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=4754) and thanks for reminding me about that picture, *saves*

And wouldn't you know I got my HHKB Pro 2 from megarat. I have to say he did a good job putting that layout picture on the back. It really does look as if it came on the board that way. But now that you have pointed it out it feels like it is made of standard paper and I would think that if PFU did put that on there it would have been made of something a little more sturdy.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 09:42:01
@RDH
I noticed that the model number on your HHKB is PD-KB300NL, rather than the one I have, PD-KB400WN. What is the main difference of the boards?
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 09:57:15
Quote from: ripster;111525
* the "wire protector" is probably metal and a therefore a ferrite for EMI. Pretty common - my M4-1 and NeXT have them too.
Your probably right it did not feel like plastic when I moved it around so I could close my case. Boy let me tell you I was worried there for a bit that I had screwed something up when the case would not close. It took me a while to calm down and figure out what it was and it was a big relief when I finally figured that out.

Quote
* Big ABS stamp on the case (the 87U case is also ABS plastic).  I'm a big fan of ABS but watch the white cases under sunlight.  Might be susceptible to yellowing.  Hopefully the additives have improved in the last 20 years.
You know something when I was taking that picture and saw that big ABS stamped into the case my first thought was I bet ripster will see that and go "Ah Ha I knew that case had to be ABS" so I left it there for you to point out. :bounce:

Quote
* I gotta measure the spacebar activation force.  Get a handful of springs like that and you may be able to mod away the board easily for stiffer keyboard fans.
I was thinking the same thing. Where can I find some springs like this so I can try it on some other keys. I don't think it adds much to the activation force but it does make the space bar bounce back faster than one of the other keys. Which is what I really think it is for. That space bar has to pick up the weight of the stabiliser. The other keys with stabilisers don't feel as if they bounce back quite as fast as a normal key but the stabilisers on them are not as big as that one on the space bar so no spring. I wonder if adding one would make them feel more bouncy.

Quote
* The rubber material is EPT (ethylene-propylene-terpolymer) according to the patent.  It's used in everything from radiator hoses to athletic shoes.  Have no idea if anyone else uses it in their rubber dome boards but I kinda doubt it's all that special - the spring does add SOME force (5g or so) and that does make the key feel unique.
Cool I knew it was different than what is used in most rubber domes. Every one I've opened up uses the same stuff used in the Keytronic that looks like this:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3139&stc=1&d=1247336968)

Quote
* Glad you highlighted the key sliders.  I think they add a lot to the keyfeel as well.
What is left to do though is to take apart one that is mounted in a metal plate. But I think they are the same and the only difference is that the housing is a separate moulding but still would like to verify it. Some of the pictures I've seen of older Topre switches look like they may be different I guess I will find out as I have secured a few of them.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 09:59:29
Quote from: watduzhkstand4;111566
@RDH
I noticed that the model number on your HHKB is PD-KB300NL, rather than the one I have, PD-KB400WN. What is the main difference of the boards?

That is a HHKB Pro not a HHKB Pro 2. The main difference is that it has a PS/2 connector and no USB Hub those were added to the HHKB Pro 2.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 10:13:57
Quote from: rdh;111524
The Pro and Pro 2 are so nearly identical, that I personally wouldn't bother.
On the other hand, it's your collection, not mine.  

The only difference between the two, as far as I can tell, is the USB ports they added to the Pro 2.  

Can anyone confirm that's the only difference?
I mostly was going to get that Pro version because it was such a good price and I would not mind having one (BTW It went for something like 7,250 yen).

Your last question is really the main reason I want one. To have a complete collection if I can get them at a reasonable price. So questions like that can be answered and documented here. I would really love to see the GeekHack review and modifications section be the go to place for keyboard documentation. As it is now we have to find this stuff over on Japanese or Korean web sites. But to get that depth of coverage someone has to acquire these boards and take them apart and then write something up so others can find it. For now I'm trying to do that for the Topre boards. For instance there is praticly zero information on the net about one of the boards I have comming the NISSHO Electronics KB106DE even though there are a few of them floating around.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdh on Mon, 24 August 2009, 11:00:08
Quote from: rdjack21;111569

Quote from: watduzhkstand4;111566
@RDH
I noticed that the model number on your HHKB is PD-KB300NL, rather than the one I have, PD-KB400WN. What is the main difference of the boards?
That is a HHKB Pro not a HHKB Pro 2. The main difference is that it has a PS/2 connector and no USB Hub those were added to the HHKB Pro 2.


Nope, the Pro has a USB connection.  The hub seems to be the only difference between the Pro and the Pro 2 (though I'm hoping someone can confirm or refute that).
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 11:30:18
Quote from: ripster;111575
OK, I just swapped the spacebar spring onto the F key.  Good news and bad news.  It is a nice ideal 60g (for you Model F and Selectric fans).  Bad news is that the key feels almost linear now.  I wouldn't recommend paying $1200 for a custom run of springs but if you happen to work in a spring factory they shouldn't be hard to replicate.
Don't think I would like a 60g Topre. Definitely don't want it linear.

Quote
No rubber baby buggy bumpers on the 87U.
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4011&stc=1&d=1251126774)

Wonder if they put those bumpers on the HHKB to eliminate plastic on plastic clacking. Those bumper would change the sound of bottoming out I would think. The space bar looks the same as the HHKB again I wonder if you could just stick some bumpers in there but how would that affect the sound/feel hmm...

Quote
Digital crop of a previous 87U pic:
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4012&stc=1&d=1251126938)



They are like you thought - individual plastic keyholders mounted on a metal plate.   The metal plate probably doesn't change the key feel as much as sound and obviously the weight of the keyboard.
The look to be exactly like the HHKB even down to those keys that hold the dome in the right place in the housing.

Quote
I love ABS!!!  Any self respecting LEGO fan would.  They are entirely made of ABS.   Chloe didn't seem to like ABS but I sure do - I haven't broken a LEGO yet!

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4013&stc=1&d=1251127813)


From Wikipedia:


There are 62 LEGO bricks for every living person on earth.  Be sure to play nice and share.
Did you build that. It is so cool. I'm really trying to get my son into LEGO bricks but I think I'm going to have to let him get a little older. Right now he is having to much fun with that magnifying glass I gave him.

One more question are those rivets I'm seeing in those pictures of the 87U? what are they used for? I thought the metal plate was one piece. Oh wait I bet those are where the screws go right.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 11:32:16
Quote from: rdh;111578
Nope, the Pro has a USB connection.  The hub seems to be the only difference between the Pro and the Pro 2 (though I'm hoping someone can confirm or refute that).

That Pro I was bidding on at Yahoo Japan had a PS/2 connector. But then again it was built in 97. I wonder if there were different revisions of the original Pro.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdh on Mon, 24 August 2009, 11:56:55
Quote from: rdjack21;111583
That Pro I was bidding on at Yahoo Japan had a PS/2 connector. But then again it was built in 97. I wonder if there were different revisions of the original Pro.


If the one you bid on was from 1997, it probably was an (original) HHKB, not a Pro, which would mean it was a rubber dome board.
   
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard), the original HHKB was the only model existing before 1999, when the HHKB Lite was released.  The Moonlight Cafe site (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcafemoonlight.blog55.fc2.com%2F&sl=ja&tl=en&history_state0=) has a 2003 release date for the first HHKB Professional.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 14:01:07
Quote from: rdh;111590
If the one you bid on was from 1997, it probably was an (original) HHKB, not a Pro, which would mean it was a rubber dome board.
   
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard), the original HHKB was the only model existing before 1999, when the HHKB Lite was released.  The Moonlight Cafe site (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcafemoonlight.blog55.fc2.com%2F&sl=ja&tl=en&history_state0=) has a 2003 release date for the first HHKB Professional.

Well I guess I should be thankful I did not get it then. I really should do a wiki on the Topre boards having this information scattered all over the place makes it a pain to verify stuff. Especially that stuff on Moonlight Cafe.

For reference here is what they look like:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4015&stc=1&d=1251140156)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4016&stc=1&d=1251140156)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4017&stc=1&d=1251140156)
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 15:20:43
Forgot that was there. Went and took a look that thing needs a rewrite. It has a lot of good information but needs to be rearranged and completed. I guess I need to go and fix that.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: rdh on Mon, 24 August 2009, 15:23:45
Quote from: rdjack21;111604
For reference here is what they look like:


Yup, definitely an original HHKB.   PFU has been pretty consistent about changing the model name printed on the front of the board with each new model, which is handy for us.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Mon, 24 August 2009, 16:08:38
wow they never really changed the layout of the board. Except they started using capacitive switches and added a hub. Still I like this keyboard, btw, it was definiltey lighter than I expected.
Title: HHKB Pro 2 Exposed
Post by: usitawi on Sun, 13 June 2010, 16:41:17
Can you please tell me where you bought the colored keys?