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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: VanGhost on Wed, 25 February 2015, 09:57:33
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I just tried extending the feet on my Filco and it totally got rid of the ping. Since I don't rest my hands on the table top while typing there isn't really any strain from having the keys a little higher.
What do you guys do?
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Flat because the steeper angle from the legs ****s with my hands and typing style.
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HHKB: Flat
Poker II: both in Tex cases, so rubber feet
I used to do the feet on my HHKB, but I feel the angle is too aggressive since switching to the Tex cases on my Poker II boards.
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extended
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Flat and with a spacebar under the front of the keyboard to tilt it backwards. The best to avoid wrist pain, or carpal tunnel development.
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flat
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Extended all the way.
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Flat
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there have been many similar threads in the past... ergonomically, they say flat is better.
i keep them flat
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Make a poll to add value to a thread on a recurring subject
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It depends on the board. If it has a flat plate I lay it flat on the desktop. Curved plate boards, like Model M & F, I extend the legs to tilt the board up.
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Flat is better ergonomically
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Flat is better ergonomically
My ergo desk at work is even tilted away from me so that it cancels out the modest incline that is built into the board.
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Make a poll to add value to a thread on a recurring subject
there have been many similar threads in the past... ergonomically, they say flat is better.
i keep them flat
Sorry guys, I'm still new here. In the future if I think that a question might have been asked before I'll search for it.
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Flat and with SA keycaps on :)
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Neither flat nor extended is more ergonomic on its own. There is a multitude of other variables that go into it. Granted flat is more ergonomic more often than inclined but not always the case.
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Extended.
In fact, if I needed the keyboard to be flat, I wouldn't be able to fit both the keyboard and my wrist rest on the desk. I have the feet of my monitor tucked under the back of the keyboard, and the front of my wrist rest comes right up to the edge of the desk.
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Extended.
I don't like flat boards.
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Extended, always. If it has two-part feet, the largest of the two.
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Extended.
But it depends on the height of the table and the chair, and the position of the keyboard relative to my hands and elbows.
I used to leave them flat on different configurations.
Cheers!
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I'm switching between extended and flat regularly. :D
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Extended. Actually, I elevate my keyboards with self-stick felt pads to set an incline that suits me.
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Extended, although in the case of my Poker II you don't have a choice :)
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Extended, although in the case of my Poker II you don't have a choice :)
Where there's a will there's a way! :D
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I don't want it wrapped in duct tape ;-)
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Flat. Always.
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Exteeeeendeeeeed. 11 times out of 10.
But I type on flat keycaps. Subconsciously, I may be pining for "better ergonomics", i.e. a more sculptured profile.
.......Nah. Nah, extended all the way!
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extended, flat feels weird
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Flat like piano keys.
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flat
for some reason, even thinking about using it extended, urged me to get back to a low profile mouse
my latest mouse, a logitech g602, is a bit high, used to have anywhere mx's, loved the low wrist angle, currently having very minor aches
so to sum up, flat, my left wrist is happy
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flat
for some reason, even thinking about using it extended, urged me to get back to a low profile mouse
my latest mouse, a logitech g602, is a bit high, used to have anywhere mx's, loved the low wrist angle, currently having very minor aches
so to sum up, flat, my left wrist is happy
*slams table*
You're obviously not Khan :/
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flat
for some reason, even thinking about using it extended, urged me to get back to a low profile mouse
my latest mouse, a logitech g602, is a bit high, used to have anywhere mx's, loved the low wrist angle, currently having very minor aches
so to sum up, flat, my left wrist is happy
*slams table*
You're obviously not Khan :/
obviously they forgot to add the carpal tunnel prevention gene
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Flat.
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Extended. It's all about that angle, no flat.
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As the last time this was asked (and the time before that), I have my keyboards flat.
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hwood34: “Flat is better ergonomically”
metalliqaz: “My ergo desk at work is even tilted away from me so that it cancels out the modest incline that is built into the board.”
keyhopper: “Extended. But it depends on the height of the table and the chair, and the position of the keyboard relative to my hands and elbows.”
Melvang: “Neither flat nor extended is more ergonomic on its own.”
Sorry hwood & metalliqaz, but keyhopper and Melvang have it right on this one.
First, a disclaimer: I don’t claim to be an expert on this, (and to be honest, after reading a few dozen academic papers on the subject, I’m not convinced anyone is an especially reliable expert), but I have thought a bunch about it.
Expert advice / research is based on a few main concepts.
(1) Muscles shouldn’t have heavy static load. The typical goal is for long-term static load on any given muscle to be something like <5% of the maximum voluntary load (like what you’d get if lifting weights or similar). Many people have typing postures which lead them to have like 15–20% of maximum load constantly for hours at a time on certain muscles, e.g. in their back or shoulders. This is bad, leading to all kinds of problems.
(2) Don’t stretch hands/wrists/fingers into positions that will cause repetitive motions to take place at the limits of particular tendons’ range of motion. This leads to fatigue and inflamation.
(3) Don’t place excessive external pressure on tendons/nerves/blood vessels (there are actually a lot of places that you could put pressure on that would be a bad idea, spots on the upper back/shoulders/arms/elbows/wrists/etc., so be careful out there)
(4) Try to avoid excessive impact force / shock on the joints, especially repetitive impacts
Based on such principles, there have been a bunch of studies which tried to measure muscle loads and forces in various ways, but most of the literature is somewhat unsatisfactory and it’s hard to piece together a particularly coherent story. Much more research is necessary to settle many questions about keyboard design and use IMO.
But in any event, here’s my advice:
The best angle depends on the height of your desk and chair, the size of your body, and the way you sit.
You want to set your keyboard up so that you can sit comfortably, and type without putting excessive strain anywhere. That means, for any position you’re going to stay in for more than 20–30 minutes at a time:
- keep your shoulders, back, and neck in a comfortable relaxed position
- no shrugging, no hunching forward
- leave your upper arms hanging loosely down at your sides,
no sticking your elbows out or forward
- either sit up or make sure you have adequate back support.
reclining is fine, but no slouching
- try not to keep your head up; looking down a bit is fine,
but tilting the head too far down causes neck strain
(laptops in the lap aren’t great for extended use)
- keep your wrists as straight as you can get them. The further they get from
straight/neutral along any axis, the further certain tendons have to stretch,
and the more strain/fatigue results
- avoid excessive wrist extension or flexion
(= bending your wrists up and down)
- avoid excessive forearm pronation
(= rotating your forearms inward so your wrists are flat
- avoid excessive ulnar deviation
(= turning your wrist outward)
The standard keyboard is a pretty bad shape which makes it impossible to get your wrists in an entirely neutral position. (For that you need some tenting between split halves to reduce pronation, and some turn inward to avoid ulnar deviation). It’s possible though to avoid wrist extension/flexion, which seem to be the worst offenders (wrist extension leads to tendonitis and carpal tunnel syndrome).
The ideal case is to be in an environment where the home row on the keyboard is at or slightly below the level of your elbows, with the top of the keyboard flat or even slightly negatively sloped. However, even with a higher desk than that, it’s possible to avoid injury if you’re careful. I advise tilting your keyboard such that the key plate is parallel to your forearms when your wrists are straight. If your desk is tall relative to your chair, your elbows might end up bent fairly steeply, and the best keyboard tilt is also pretty steep; typing at a high desk puts a bit of extra load on your biceps, but luckily biceps are pretty strong.
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Is flat maybe more popular with touch typists? When I see people, their hands usually look quite cramped and pointing upwards, so it looks like it would be more comfortable typing at a less steep angle. Whereas if you just kind of type normally, you might want the back bit of the keyboard to just be closer to you. Just throwing some thoughts out there.
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Comfort may be relative to each ones feeling, biomechanics, in the other hand will pass you the bill of stressful positions kept for long periods. That is a fact, and facts are undisputed.
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Comfort may be relative to each ones feeling, biomechanics, in the other hand will pass you the bill of stressful positions kept for long periods. That is a fact, and facts are undisputed.
Hmmm I guess, I was just curious about whether there is a correlation at all.
Scientifically speaking facts don't exist though, and everything is disputed ;P .
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When I see people, their hands usually look quite cramped and pointing upwards, so it looks like it would be more comfortable typing at a less steep angle.
Lots of people rest their palms/wrists on the table or on a low-ish palmrest or on the front part of a laptop while they type. This pretty much inevitably causes excessive wrist extension, and is a bad idea. Personally I’d recommend against using a palmrest while typing, but if you need one for some reason, I think it should be fairly tall, your palms should be resting not your wrists, and you should make sure your wrists are as straight as possible. Resting your palms on the Kinesis Advantage shell is probably reasonable enough, as one example.
Every study I’ve seen about keyboard angle (admittedly there are a bunch of studies I haven’t examined yet) either instructed the typists to rest their palms on a palmrest, or just sat them down in front of various setups and didn’t give them any advice about how to type. As a result, pretty much every study shows dramatic amounts of wrist extension in nearly all test conditions. In other words, the test subjects in many keyboard studies would be on the fast track to RSI if they kept those positions and typed for 8 hours/day. Fortunately most office jobs only require bits of intermittent typing here and there, rather than long-term continuous typing.
I’d really love to see studies where they at least included one test group of people explicitly instructed to type while holding their wrists as straight as possible and not resting palms/wrists on any surface, let them type for a few hours, and then measured various muscle loads, surveyed subjective fatigue, and recorded speed/accuracy at various amounts of time. Likewise, I’d like to see more studies where they kept the keyboard in the same position/orientation (for any particular subject; between subjects of different heights it might be necessary to change the keyboard position or tilt) and varied the height and position of the palmrest.
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When I am using my TKL QFR, I always have keyboard feet extended. With flatted feet I find it hard to reach the number row.
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I don't have feet on my keyboard, I just have the curved back plate on my AT sitting on/in my keyboard tray.
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Flat! :)
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flat
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Use to be flat but only extended now a days.
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For years, I used my keyboard with the legs extended because I thought it was more ergonomic. Once I started using my keyboards flat, I noticed an easing of my wrist pain. Recently, I've been using one of my boards with a negative tilt and found that even more comfortable.
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I always want feet or a tilt to it... I usually go by the height of the desk than anything else. If your desk is a little high laying it flat becomes very awkward. If you are sitting and telling someone with your hands to "calm down" that is how I like my hands to sit on a keyboard to avoid strain and to be able to touch type quickly. You know, hands at about a 15-30 degree angle. Laying it flat makes me raise my wrists too high and feels awkward and uncomfortable. Like everyone will say... use good posture and do what feels the most comfortable to you... thats why feet are usually optional and can be dropped or raised. The Octagon I just made has a permanent tilt to it and it is a perfect angle imo.
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Comfort may be relative to each ones feeling, biomechanics, in the other hand will pass you the bill of stressful positions kept for long periods. That is a fact, and facts are undisputed.
Hmmm I guess, I was just curious about whether there is a correlation at all.
Scientifically speaking facts don't exist though, and everything is disputed ;P .
You meant debatable. :))
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flat, they both stand plenty tall by themselves, it makes it hard to type with them up.
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Flat. With my current set up, having it extended makes my wrist bend at an awkward angle.
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Always extend, if it has feet. My keyboard right now is 12 degree, but I still want it to be higher.
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Gotta have the feet extended. Flat keyboards, except my laptops chiclet keyboard, wreck my wrists and make it harder to reach the top keys.
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never extended
depending on the angle I might even place something under the board to lift the front up to make it flatter. I'm sure that's somehow a typing sin, but I find it more comfortable.
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I've always left my keyboards flat as they feel weird to me while extended. Making the keyboard extended poorly angles my hands as well. Leaving the keyboard extended would probably hurt my hands much more quickly over the long run.
I suppose extended may be better for people who have their keyboard about a ruler's length away, and at a high elevation, so it doesn't angle the hands as much.
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....
The ideal case is to be in an environment where the home row on the keyboard is at or slightly below the level of your elbows, with the top of the keyboard flat or even slightly negatively sloped. However, even with a higher desk than that, it’s possible to avoid injury if you’re careful. I advise tilting your keyboard such that the key plate is parallel to your forearms when your wrists are straight. If your desk is tall relative to your chair, your elbows might end up bent fairly steeply, and the best keyboard tilt is also pretty steep; typing at a high desk puts a bit of extra load on your biceps, but luckily biceps are pretty strong.
I agree with everything you have posted on this topic, including the part about the ideal case, however you fail to mention one factor: Blood flow.
Forearm angles less than 90 degrees (ie high desk / low chair = raised hands) creates a situation with reduced blood flow to your hands during typing which is not ideal. I am quite sensitive to this, for instance I have great difficulty doing tasks with my hands raised above my head for extended periods. Elbows at 90 degrees or greater allows for greater bloodflow to the wrists and hands during typing which is to be desired.
For this reason, flatter / negative keyboard angle simply is more ergonomic.
This brings us to keycap profile designs, but that's a whole other topic of discussion ;)
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Comfort may be relative to each ones feeling, biomechanics, in the other hand will pass you the bill of stressful positions kept for long periods. That is a fact, and facts are undisputed.
Hmmm I guess, I was just curious about whether there is a correlation at all.
Scientifically speaking facts don't exist though, and everything is disputed ;P .
You meant debatable. :))
Oops, sorry, you're right xD .
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Comfort may be relative to each ones feeling, biomechanics, in the other hand will pass you the bill of stressful positions kept for long periods. That is a fact, and facts are undisputed.
Hmmm I guess, I was just curious about whether there is a correlation at all.
Scientifically speaking facts don't exist though, and everything is disputed ;P .
You meant debatable. :))
Oops, sorry, you're right xD .
I would like to debate that ;D
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FLAT!!! always flat. Actually the normal angle that most keyboards have when sitting flat, is very comfortable to me. The same with the 0 degree rise of laptop keyboards.
I have sprained my left wrist 3 times and broken the right one once (mountain bike crashes and snowboarding) and I am also prone to develop Synovial Cysts (ganglion cysts) on both wrists (because of genetics and office work). Because of this I used to feel a tension when typing on an angled keyboard and sometimes that tension would transform into unbearable constant pain for about 2-3 days (I even woke up in my sleep because of it), then reverting back to tension. This is really affected my ability to use my hands (from typing, to biking).
According to orthopedic doctors, there is only one way of dealing with ganglion cysts: surgery. The catch is that after the surgery the cysts have a 50% chance of reappearing in one year.
Luckily, I have my grandmother who is knowledgeable in natural remedies and she suggested that I should go to a pharmacy and buy an ointment/cream with bee venom, camphor, propolis, marigold and few other things. This thing proved to be really effective as the cysts have disappeared and I have no more tension or pain.
Sadly I still cannot use keyboards with a high angle as I still feel some discomfort (so not many Korean customs to choose from :( )
If you're curios, this is what a ganglion cyst looks like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganglion_cyst
and this is the ointment/cream I have used: http://amhealth.biz/en/apitherapy/apireven-cream.html
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I've always used flat. I assume it's not great for my wrists since I don't have support, but I find my typing is better without wrist rests.
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Used to have feet extended, but I switched to flat and now that I am used to it, if I even try out any board with a considerable incline it just feels... wrong.