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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: xyzzy on Wed, 26 August 2009, 18:44:14

Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: xyzzy on Wed, 26 August 2009, 18:44:14
I was wondering if the 35g keys are marked correctly in the official Realforce 87u drawing:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4079&stc=1&d=1251328787)

What puzzles me is that in the left side of the keyboard, only the keys hit by the little finger are marked as "light" ones. While on the right side, the keys marked as light are those hit by both the little finger and the ring finger.

Maybe the Topre engineers found out that the left ring finger is stronger than the right one? Don't think so.
Did they just make a huge mistake in a board that bases most if not all of its success in its build quality AND key weighting? Unlikely.

So, let's think for a moment that the drawing is incorrect. Reasonably, there are two possibilities:

1. the ring finger keys should all be light weight keys
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4080&stc=1&d=1251328793)

OR

2. the ring finger keys should all be normal weight keys
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4081&stc=1&d=1251328797)

(*)

My assumption is that the possibility n. 1 is correct. Topre engineers did a good job, but the drawing somehow got messed up.

Evidence #1 (from this post (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=99858&postcount=9)):
Quote from: wellington1869;99858
excellent. I was worried about that because I occasionally even get "ssssssssssss" and "s" is supposed to be 45g.  Let me know if the improvement holds up over time (ie, the reduction of "aaaaaaa" and ";;;;;;;;;;;;;").


Evidence #2
I received Welly's modded 87U (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=103892&postcount=122) a couple of days ago, and I have the impression that the keys 2WSX feel mushier than the others, especially when bottoming out. Exactly like the Function keys or Windows keys, that have been replaced with 35g ones.

Am I just imagining things?

Someone with an 86U or 87U and a RipOmeter could check his keys, especially the 2WSX column?

---

(*) There's a 3rd possibility. Welly had the springs and domes flying around the room when he opened the board and mixed them all up when trying to put it back together :juggle:
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 18:48:01
I don't know about anyone else, but I usually hit the return key with my little finger. Shouldnt that be 35g too?
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: xyzzy on Wed, 26 August 2009, 18:52:19
Quote from: ch_123;112177
I don't know about anyone else, but I usually hit the return key with my little finger. Shouldnt that be 35g too?

Hmm I guess they decided to leave out the "big" keys. I think I hit them with more strength than the normal sized keys anyway.
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: xyzzy on Wed, 26 August 2009, 18:58:43
Just found a post (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=99300&postcount=3) by ripster where he states that tests on the right ring finger column (9OL.) show the RipOmeter measures around 40g.

So maybe the ring finger keys weight is something between light (35g) and normal (45g) keys?

Similar findings are found in this page about the Realforce 106 (Babelfish translation): http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww5f.biglobe.ne.jp%2F~silencium%2Fkeyboard%2Fhtml%2Frfkaizou.html&lp=ja_en&btnTrUrl=Translate
For what I understand he says that the ring finger columns are heavier than 30g but lighter than 45g...
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: rdjack21 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 20:57:28
From what I can tell this one is correct:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4081&stc=1&d=1251328797)

All the keys marked as 35g are pinky keys. What keys are you calling ring finger keys. I hit "9ol." with the ring finger "0p;/'p[]-=" are pinky keys or are the ones I hit with my pinky. I know I learned how to type in the bad old days of typewriters and that is the way we were taught how to type. Has this changed?

I guess not finger layout board:
(http://www.datacal.com/s_images/finger-position-overlays_s.jpg)

Yellow Pinky
Red Pinky

EDIT: Forgot to add I checked my 87U and the keys measure correctly using the RipOmeter method. Pinky keys 7 nickels, other keys 9 nickels. It should be noted to make any of the keys collapse after you put the nickels on the key you tap the keyboard frame they collapse. Also I will have to look this up but I thought the Topre switch weight is +- 5g

I agree that the bigger keys were left heavy because people tend to hit them harder and the move their hand when they hit them.
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: rdjack21 on Wed, 26 August 2009, 21:05:12
I should also add I will take some nickels with me to work and check my 86U as well. But it will be tomorrow before I can do that.
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: xyzzy on Thu, 27 August 2009, 05:18:47
Quote from: rdjack21;112191
What keys are you calling ring finger keys.

I mean these keys:
- left ring finger: 2wsx
- right ring finger: 9ol.

In the Topre official image, the left group uses 45g keys, the right group uses 35g keys, which is quite bizarre.
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: rdjack21 on Thu, 27 August 2009, 09:50:28
Quote from: ripster;112280
I think the official diagram is correct except for the right ring finger being 40g not 35g.

Not a biggie - it's pretty subtle all around and once I swapped the home row A and ; keys I never worried about it again.


subtle is the right word. It is really hard to tell the difference with your finger on the 45->35 keys but you can feel it on a comparison of the 55->35 keys and 55->45 keys as well. And the RipOmeter is not all that accurate but pretty close.

But unlike ripster I only had the aaaaa ;;;;;;;; issue when I first got my 87U I don't have that issue any more. Even when switching back and forth between the HHKB Pro and the 87U/86U I don't have issues.
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 27 August 2009, 10:13:41
Quote from: ripster;112296
Texas has a different gravity - it's a bigger state.

That must be why we have so many heavy people.  We are passing legislation in San Antonio to have restaurants provide a "Healthy" menu.
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Thu, 27 August 2009, 10:14:14
I mean 10g is a huge difference but I've never tried the Topre. I still find the HHKB Pro 2 stiffer than the blue cherry.
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: xyzzy on Thu, 27 August 2009, 10:18:29
Quote from: ripster;112280
I think the official diagram is correct except for the right ring finger being 40g not 35g.

Hmm I can't test the right ring finger keys as Welly moved those domes to the function keys to make it an all-45g board.

It is possible though that both left and right finger keys are 40g. It would make sense. I feel keys 2wsx are a tiny bit lighter than the others.
What bothers me a little is not the lightness of the touch but the fact that they have a mushier feel when you bottom out. The other alpha keys are definitely crispier.

Oh well, maybe it's time to take this baby to the [strike]butcher[/strike] surgeon again :evil:
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 27 August 2009, 10:21:32
Quote from: webwit;112302
Wrong! This is all wrong. Size has nothing to do with it, as the mass is divided by the size of the surface.
 
What matters is if it's mountainous in terms of mass!
 
Therefore the Netherlands has no gravity, but Nepal has extremely high gravity.

Good point.  Texas is pretty flat except on in the far West part of the state.
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: rdjack21 on Thu, 27 August 2009, 11:18:53
Quote from: watduzhkstand4;112301
I mean 10g is a huge difference but I've never tried the Topre. I still find the HHKB Pro 2 stiffer than the blue cherry.


The HHKB Pro 2 is essentially a OEM Topre. The 45g keys of the 87U/86U feel pretty much the same as the HHKB Pro 2. Even though the blue cherry does require slightly more force to actuate I do agree that the cherry switch has a lighter feel to it. Why this is I'm not sure. I think it has to do with the mechanics of how both of them work. The rubber dome of the Topre I think is what makes them have that stiffer feel even though it takes less force to actuate them.

Take a look at this Mythbusters - The RipOmeter Tool (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6189&highlight=RipOmeter)
You will note that the blues measured at 50g not really enough difference to feel with your fingers so I still believe it is just a matter of how the switch works that makes the Topre feel heaver.
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 27 August 2009, 20:22:37
this is interesting; its hard to tell though if the ring finger keys are really 40g, or if there is simply some 'natural variation' in the domes.  We'd need someone with an untouched 87u to do ripometer on the ring fingers and see if 40g comes up consistently across ALL of them. (If it only comes up on a few keys, then i'd be inclined to say its 'normal variation' and not designed into it).
And if it IS designed into it, and Topre put out an official diagram that is that wrong on something this important and basic, then shame on topre!
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 27 August 2009, 22:59:32
omg, so did topre really get the diagram wrong? man, thats just... wrong!
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Fri, 28 August 2009, 00:01:37
Quote from: rdjack21;112314
The HHKB Pro 2 is essentially a OEM Topre. The 45g keys of the 87U/86U feel pretty much the same as the HHKB Pro 2. Even though the blue cherry does require slightly more force to actuate I do agree that the cherry switch has a lighter feel to it. Why this is I'm not sure. I think it has to do with the mechanics of how both of them work. The rubber dome of the Topre I think is what makes them have that stiffer feel even though it takes less force to actuate them.

Take a look at this Mythbusters - The RipOmeter Tool (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6189&highlight=RipOmeter)
You will note that the blues measured at 50g not really enough difference to feel with your fingers so I still believe it is just a matter of how the switch works that makes the Topre feel heaver.


I definitely agree with you. The way the switch actuates makes a huge difference. The HHKB feels a lot stiffer while the cherry blue feels somewhat like it's almost floating and it's almost like a magnet and then all of a sudden it clicks.
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: xyzzy on Mon, 31 August 2009, 08:42:49
In the weekend I finally had some time to dismantle the board and revert the all-45g mod and put the domes back in their original location.

There's definitely a difference in weight (measured with a custom Euro-based RipOmeter) in ring finger keys. They are around 40g.

Here's the updated diagram according to these measurements:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4187&stc=1&d=1251726050)

I'm not sure if this is the behavior intended by the manufacturer or it's just normal variation in the thickness (or whatever) of the plastic and can vary from model to model. If this was the case anyway, it's weird that such variations happen ONLY in the ring finger keys -- at least in my board.
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 31 August 2009, 09:18:47
What is even more weired is that the spec's I've seen for the switch has the tolerance for key weight specified at +- 15g which makes me wonder that when changing the wall thickness on the dome from the 35g on the pinky to the 45g on the main keys they have to step the thickness up 5g at a time so we have on the single sheet 35g transition row of 40g then 45g for the rest. Any ways just thinking out loud.
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 31 August 2009, 11:20:37
Quote from: xyzzy;113322
In the weekend I finally had some time to dismantle the board and revert the all-45g mod and put the domes back in their original location.

There's definitely a difference in weight (measured with a custom Euro-based RipOmeter) in ring finger keys. They are around 40g.

Here's the updated diagram according to these measurements:

Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4187&stc=1&d=1251726050)


I'm not sure if this is the behavior intended by the manufacturer or it's just normal variation in the thickness (or whatever) of the plastic and can vary from model to model. If this was the case anyway, it's weird that such variations happen ONLY in the ring finger keys -- at least in my board.


thanks for this great pic, xy.  This should definitely go into the topre wiki :)
Title: Topre Realforce 86U/87U key weighting
Post by: rdjack21 on Mon, 31 August 2009, 11:30:26
Quote from: wellington1869;113366
thanks for this great pic, xy.  This should definitely go into the topre wiki :)


When I get to that part it will. Thanks xy that has saved me the trouble of doing it myself.