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geekhack Marketplace => Great Finds => Topic started by: snuci on Thu, 26 February 2015, 20:35:37

Title: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: snuci on Thu, 26 February 2015, 20:35:37
Got lucky on this one:  http://www.ebay.ca/itm/171698606257  Free shipping too.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 26 February 2015, 20:37:40
lucky
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 26 February 2015, 20:39:38
Why would you post a thread in great finds if you already bought it?
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 26 February 2015, 20:41:47
Why would you post a thread in great finds if you already bought it?

it was a great find... for him...
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: snuci on Thu, 26 February 2015, 20:58:27
Just a post to show an example that great finds are still out there and that patience (and timing) is key.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: engicoder on Thu, 26 February 2015, 21:11:58
Will have to start browsing ebay.ca  ;D
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: Touch_It on Thu, 26 February 2015, 22:12:59
:O  silly seller mislabled and lost a lot of money.  Great find!
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: E TwentyNine on Fri, 27 February 2015, 08:46:34
That's like a perfect storm of crappy listing practices.  Wrong item, bad title, "keyboard" isn't even in the title, arguably the wrong category...

Though I'll admit to being amused if you were actually sent an M.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: Snowdog993 on Fri, 27 February 2015, 12:02:33
That's like a perfect storm of crappy listing practices.  Wrong item, bad title, "keyboard" isn't even in the title, arguably the wrong category...

Though I'll admit to being amused if you were actually sent an M.

I was going to mention "wrong picture of item" too.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: SpaceGhost on Fri, 27 February 2015, 12:11:49
On the US eBay site, the same seller is still offering what appears to be the same keyboard, but with the P/N of a 122-key Model M terminal keyboard. I suspect the seller is also using a photo taken/stolen from elsewhere.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-IBM-Model-M-13955660-/171699834171?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27fa1b8d3b
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: JPG on Fri, 27 February 2015, 12:35:56
Rejoice when you get it, if it's the same as in the picture. Else...  ;D
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: E TwentyNine on Fri, 27 February 2015, 12:52:47
On the US eBay site, the same seller is still offering what appears to be the same keyboard, but with the P/N of a 122-key Model M terminal keyboard. I suspect the seller is also using a photo taken/stolen from elsewhere.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-IBM-Model-M-13955660-/171699834171?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27fa1b8d3b

Right you are:

http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/ibm_6450225.html

https://teksyndicate.com/forum/hardware/mod-log-ibm-pc-xt-usb/122502

Lmao, this picture is all over the place, even here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67170.0.msg1577162#msg1577162

Looking forward to seeing how this plays out...
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: SpaceGhost on Fri, 27 February 2015, 16:44:09
Be aware, if any of you bought this. You're about to receive a 122-key Lexmark Model M made in 1994. I got actual photos from the seller and he said he couldn't change the photo in the listing. Yah, right!
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 27 February 2015, 17:13:39
he said he couldn't change the photo in the listing. Yah, right!

Well, it is true that ebay will not allow you to make any changes to a listing once a valid bid has been placed.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: E TwentyNine on Fri, 27 February 2015, 17:29:09
he said he couldn't change the photo in the listing. Yah, right!

Well, it is true that ebay will not allow you to make any changes to a listing once a valid bid has been placed.

You can still add to the description and add photos an after a bid has been placed as long as you're not too close to end of auction.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: SpaceGhost on Fri, 27 February 2015, 17:29:48
I did warn him long before the item sold -- it was a BIN; but it doesn't matter anyway -- the item has been re-listed with the correct photos this time.

When bidding or buying on eBay: Caveat Emptor2
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: faceyourfaces on Sat, 28 February 2015, 08:56:29
Will have to start browsing ebay.ca  ;D

The guy was shipping from New York City though.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: E TwentyNine on Thu, 05 March 2015, 14:31:18
What was the outcome on this one?
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: snuci on Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:35:27
Well, it just arrived today and thanks to you guys, I was expecting the worst.  Is it an AT Model F?  No. But I am just as happy (if not more) with the deal because it's a fairly early Model M as advertised.

[attach=1]

[attach=2]

[attach=3]

I think it's a keeper.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: E TwentyNine on Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:39:45
Barcode label, square logo, "brass" backplate, the crystal, and all the rivets intact?  Yeah, that's a nice one.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:43:16
A mandolin crystal Model M for less than $1000?!?! Holy wow!!
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: nubbinator on Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:46:34
A mandolin crystal Model M for less than $1000?!?! Holy wow!!

I guess that means there are least 4 now ;)

Stop showing these guys, they need to stay rare so we can charge $500 for them.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: Flyersfan1 on Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:47:08
What's up with all of these sellers sending out M's instead of F's lately????
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: chyros on Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:50:04
Barcode label, square logo, "brass" backplate, the crystal, and all the rivets intact?  Yeah, that's a nice one.
Wait, is a "brassy" backplate a special thing? =o
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: E TwentyNine on Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:52:21
What's up with all of these sellers sending out M's instead of F's lately????

People who aren't enthusiasts don't know the difference.  They all look the same, so when then get an M or an F they may think it's the other and sell it as one, or ship out the wrong item when they have a pile containing both.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: E TwentyNine on Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:53:23
Barcode label, square logo, "brass" backplate, the crystal, and all the rivets intact?  Yeah, that's a nice one.
Wait, is a "brassy" backplate a special thing? =o

The brass backplates are heavier.  Some say it gives a more solid feel, others say in a double-blind test we'd likely never know the difference.

Either way it signifies an earlier build M.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:59:16
Barcode label, square logo, "brass" backplate, the crystal, and all the rivets intact?  Yeah, that's a nice one.

It isn't brass, it is steel, the color comes from heat treatment processes.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: E TwentyNine on Thu, 05 March 2015, 19:26:10
Barcode label, square logo, "brass" backplate, the crystal, and all the rivets intact?  Yeah, that's a nice one.

It isn't brass, it is steel, the color comes from heat treatment processes.

 :)) Preventing that reply is exactly why I put it in quotes which I don't usually do.  Some call them gold plates but we know they're not talking material, I think they're closer to brass in color.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 05 March 2015, 19:48:30
Barcode label, square logo, "brass" backplate, the crystal, and all the rivets intact?  Yeah, that's a nice one.

It isn't brass, it is steel, the color comes from heat treatment processes.

 :)) Preventing that reply is exactly why I put it in quotes which I don't usually do.  Some call them gold plates but we know they're not talking material, I think they're closer to brass in color.

It's a Model-M or F (completely ignorant about these types of keyboards) so simply take it apart and replace the old plate with a thicker, actual Brass Plate and enjoy the feeling and weight  ;) .
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 05 March 2015, 20:06:13
Barcode label, square logo, "brass" backplate, the crystal, and all the rivets intact?  Yeah, that's a nice one.

It isn't brass, it is steel, the color comes from heat treatment processes.

 :)) Preventing that reply is exactly why I put it in quotes which I don't usually do.  Some call them gold plates but we know they're not talking material, I think they're closer to brass in color.

It's a Model-M or F (completely ignorant about these types of keyboards) so simply take it apart and replace the old plate with a thicker, actual Brass Plate and enjoy the feeling and weight  ;) .

Brass would be to soft in this application at the dimensions required for the top plate to clip into the bottom plate correctly.  On an F that is.  On an M plate thickness is much less critical.  I would still rather have a steel plate.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: snuci on Fri, 06 March 2015, 13:47:40
It is definitely a steel plate.  Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering_(metallurgy) for how the color changes with heat.  As mentioned above, it's because of the heat (probably to melt the plastic rivets).
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 06 March 2015, 14:26:39
As mentioned above, it's because of the heat (probably to melt the plastic rivets).

Only the first generation, even of the heaviest oldest plates, had that yellow/gold sheen. Afterwards all the rest were dull gray. Whatever melted the plastic was not any kind of heat treatment for the plate, and there were probably individual "sheeps-foot" presses for each post.

I have seen, and owned, colors from very bright light shiny yellow to much darker and more irregular bronze-like hues, even with almost bluish/greenish streaking, but those are distinctly different from the gray ones.
Title: .
Post by: gr1618 on Fri, 06 March 2015, 16:05:40
.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: Mandolin on Tue, 10 March 2015, 03:05:44
Can confirm. Mandolin crystal inside.

Congratulations.

It is the one.

(http://media.giphy.com/media/6xE1FNcorRInS/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 10 March 2015, 07:36:04
I think the yellow/bronze color of the early IBM plates is the result of galvanization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanization). Also, the extra coating of zinc is probably what adds to the weight of these plates. They probably stopped galvanizing the plates as a cost cutting measure.

Here's a picture of some galvanized screws that have a finish similar to some of the early IBM plates:

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/NwgdyxR.jpg)


It is heat treatment.  Those screws are not galvanized unless they are coated again after the galvanizing process.  I work with that coating (torch cutting, and welding to the steel underneath) it is a dull silver type color and a generally a very coarse surface finish.  It really doesn't take much difference in temperature during the process to affect the color at the end.  If you look in the post my manolin you can see trails where the color from the heat treatment was affected by the machine that melts the plastic rivets. 

For the thickness of the plates and the purpose with the stresses it serves, they need to be heat treated to get some more stiffness to them.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_treating scroll down to 4.4.1
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: E TwentyNine on Tue, 10 March 2015, 09:24:59
If you look in the post my manolin you can see trails where the color from the heat treatment was affected by the machine that melts the plastic rivets. 

The color often varies where there's an edge, you can see it around the holes that never had a rivet and along the edges of the board.  I'll guess this has do to with the airflow during the heat treatment.

Nothing to do with the rivet process.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: SpaceGhost on Wed, 01 April 2015, 00:17:00
I know it's kinda late for this, but I think the color may be due to either cadmium plating, or a yellow zinc chromate-conversion treatment. The streaks were probably cause by turbulence in the plating tank (I believe the plating solution is kept vigorously agitated during the process) and this caused the solution to flow through the holes in the steel plate, which would have been punched prior to plating.

I think it's highly unlikely that the coloration was caused by the heat staking process that formed the "rivet" heads. This would have been a very quick operation, as the plastic melts very quickly -- probably too short a duration to so thoroughly discolor the steel and/or whatever anti-rust treatment that had already been applied. I envision the assembly being clamped into a holding frame of some sort while a curved heating platen was pressed down upon the protruding tenons (i.e., rivet shanks) to flatten them into round heads.

The heated-platen pressing cycle would have been quite short, probably only a second or two, and the platen would not have actually touched the steel. There would have been some radiated heat from the platen, but the short cycle would have limited its ability to cause discoloration due to the thermal "inertia" of the thick steel plate. I believe that to use heat treatment to produce a deliberate coloration on a metal object would require more than a second or two of exposure to mild heating. But then, I'm no metallurgist so I could be wrong.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: Snowdog993 on Wed, 01 April 2015, 00:30:05
I know it's kinda late for this, but I think the color may be due to either cadmium plating, or a yellow zinc chromate-conversion treatment. The streaks were probably cause by turbulence in the plating tank (I believe the plating solution is kept vigorously agitated during the process) and this caused the solution to flow through the holes in the steel plate, which would have been punched prior to plating.

I think it's highly unlikely that the coloration was caused by the heat staking process that formed the "rivet" heads. This would have been a very quick operation, as the plastic melts very quickly -- probably too short a duration to so thoroughly discolor the steel and/or whatever anti-rust treatment that had already been applied. I envision the assembly being clamped into a holding frame of some sort while a curved heating platen was pressed down upon the protruding tenons (i.e., rivet shanks) to flatten them into round heads. The heated-platen pressing cycle would have been quite short, probably only a second or two.

+1 for that post.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: SpaceGhost on Wed, 01 April 2015, 01:00:03
More info about zinc chromate which can be yellow in color, as well as other colors. The tank turbulence may have caused variations in thickness, thereby causing variations in color since the color of the chromate layer depends on thickness:

From Wikipedia:
"Chromating is often performed on galvanized parts to make them more durable. The chromate coating acts as paint does, protecting the zinc from white corrosion..."

This is interesting, because the grayish steel plates in some old Model M's produced after the gold-colored process was discontinued, show a whitish deposit often appearing in small but multiple spots -- and sometimes in large areas as well. I think we can assume IBM either stopped doing the extra step of chromate conversion on the zinc galvanization plating, or simply switched from cadmium plating to a less-expensive zinc-only galvanizing plating or hot-dip coating.
Title: Re: That's a weird Model M but I guess I'll take it
Post by: SamirD on Tue, 07 April 2015, 12:39:57
Yep, that's a coating.  I had to have a coating like that removed when modifying a strut tower brace for my 95 Altima.  I believe it is a cadmium plating, commonly called 'gold cadmium plating' even though there's no gold in there.