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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Oobly on Thu, 05 March 2015, 01:38:14
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So... I saw in another thread a few people mentioning how different Topre boards hurt their fingers. Have you experienced this? If so, on which brand / board / switch type (variable, 45g, 55g)?
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No and I really don't think they should be :/
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Typing on blacks and clears hurts my fingers. Ergodox &QF.
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HHKB, no, it is heaven. Other Topre boards, yes. HHKB is the one true keyboard.
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HHKB, no, it is heaven. Other Topre boards, yes. HHKB is the one true keyboard.
So... do you mean "All Topre boards except HHKB hurt my fingers..." or are there some specific ones you've tried that have done this?
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The Novatouch doesn't hurt my fingers, but does jar them enough to be uncomfortable after a while.
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From what I've gathered, people with the stronkest fingers get destroyed by T because they bottom out too fast and furious
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At first it felt a little odd, not painful or anything but I have gotten use to it and I love it. I do suspect if you hammer the keys however, it will hurt.
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I've never had any issues with my fingers hurting or being sore on my 55g RF . In fact, I've barely touched any of my MX boards since getting a RF because its so pleasant to type on.
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no. topre feels great to me, regardless of mounting-style or weighting. :)
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I actually prefer slightly heavier switches so I would like 55g. I managed to last 3-4 hours on a Realforce 10AE. I had to quit after that. On an HHKB and Novatouch (45g)? I managed to last 30 minutes.
I get horrible pain in my fingers from typing on Topre.
I always bottom out. I'm not going to change my style to suit the keyboard. The board should suit my needs. It's a tool for me. So the bottom out has that collapsing dome? That collapse feels very harsh to my hands. Imagine slapping your hands lightly on a desk repeatedly for 30 minutes. My hands feel like that after typing on Topre for long sessions.
I've typed on many Topre boards now (10AE, HHKB stock, 55g HHKB, Type Heaven, Novatouch, this crazy 35g Topre board Dorkvader had) and I've borrowed boards for extended periods of time. Every Topre board I've had hurts my hands. So I've given up on it.
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So... I saw in another thread a few people mentioning how different Topre boards hurt their fingers. Have you experienced this? If so, on which brand / board / switch type (variable, 45g, 55g)?
No, Topre boards do not hurt our fingers. If yes, we are just hurting ourselves.
I'm using a Realforce 45g at work, it is as smooth as butter.
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Topre boards hurt my bank account.
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I actually prefer slightly heavier switches so I would like 55g. I managed to last 3-4 hours on a Realforce 10AE. I had to quit after that. On an HHKB and Novatouch (45g)? I managed to last 30 minutes.
I get horrible pain in my fingers from typing on Topre.
I always bottom out. I'm not going to change my style to suit the keyboard. The board should suit my needs. It's a tool for me. So the bottom out has that collapsing dome? That collapse feels very harsh to my hands. Imagine slapping your hands lightly on a desk repeatedly for 30 minutes. My hands feel like that after typing on Topre for long sessions.
I've typed on many Topre boards now (10AE, HHKB stock, 55g HHKB, Type Heaven, Novatouch, this crazy 35g Ttopre board Dorkvader had) and I've borrowed boards for extended periods of time. Every Topre board I've had hurts my hands. So I've given up on it.
Confused.. So the uniform 30g hurts your fingers less than the uniform 45g? But the 55g you believe would hurt the least?
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Confused.. So the uniform 30g hurts your fingers less than the uniform 45g? But the 55g you believe would hurt the least?
They all hurt equally; it's just how long I can last on the board. 55g I lasted the longest. 35g I didn't even try typing on for 10 minutes. 45g I lasted 30 minutes. If I had to pick a Topre board, I'd go with 55g.
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55g do tire my finger but I wouldn't say hurt. I'm not a fan of them though. I'm too use to lighter switches having used reds for years. 45g are buttery smooth to me. So comfortable.
Topre hurts my balls.......when my wife kicks them if there's an accidental price reveal.
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I've noticed that the bottom-out is pretty harsh on my 55g Topre. It's kind of difficult to type with enough force to overcome the bump without bottoming out hard.
I think this is because the actuation force is fairly high and there's very little resistance at all beyond it. So once you've put the >55g force down, you end up bottoming out with nearly all of that.
I'd like to try a 45g and see if it's better.
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Not for me. Though I have not tried 55g. There are some switches that did actually hurt my fingers when used for longer periods. Like blacks and Matias alps. They are so heavy that I feel the strain in my pinky and ring finger after a few hours of use.
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I’ve only typed on uniform 45g Topre keyboard for about a half hour twice (once a HHKB, and another time a Realforce), and on 55g and variable Topre boards for a few minutes... so my opinion shouldn’t be taken as authoritative.
Anyhow, I didn’t find typing to be painful, only slightly slow and not very inspiring. Felt like a very nice rubber dome (smooth, solid, etc.), but I despise rubber domes. I give Topre a 6/10 for overall experience after multiple quick impressions.
Topre have one huge advantage over regular rubber domes (either the membrane type or the conductive-dot-attached-to-the-dome kind) in that they actuate before the switch goes all the way to the bottom, and they actuate very reliably. Thus, the key to comfortably typing on Topre boards, as well as certain other switches, like stiffer Alps switches, is to practice using only the amount of force necessary to get past the tactile point of the switch, but not excessively much more: try for loose and springy, not hard follow through. It also helps if your wrists/palms aren’t resting on any surface, so you have the whole movement of your arm to absorb any excess shock. Many (most?) typists used to using rubber dome keyboards or scissor switches tend to mash the keys down with substantially more force than necessary, sometimes like 2–3x more. This results in hard impact shock at the switch bottom, which is really nasty for your joints when you do it millions of times. Unfortunately, on a regular rubber dome that actuates at the bottom of the stroke, you’re often forced to mash the keys because they won’t reliably actuate otherwise.
Cherry MX switches help reduce this impact by having a spring which gets progressively harder to push down all the way to the bottom, which means that even if you use excessive force to actuate the switch, the spring can usually absorb much of the shock. In return, Cherry MX switches (and other mostly linear switches) make your fingers do more work overall.
Clicky Alps switches (and similar switches like SMK, Omron, NEC, etc.), buckling spring switches, etc., reduce the impact by making the force drop after the tactile point very significant and sharp. This clear feedback helps your fingers to avoid putting too much force into the keypress.
With Topre (and some other switches like Burroughs switches which use a torsion spring, or brown Alps), the feedback is rounded, more subtle. As a result you need to spend more intentional effort calibrating the amount of force needed to type.
Personally I think it’s possible to design switches that get the best of both worlds here, but most folks designing switches historically haven’t thought all that hard about it. My favorite solution is the beam/plate spring type switches such as the Marquardt “butterfly” switch (though it’s slightly too stiff for my taste), Alps plate spring, or IBM beam spring switches. Buckling springs would be perfect if they actuated 1mm earlier in the stroke, had a slightly softer landing at the very bottom, and had a springier upstroke.
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Yes.. Users have also reported Topre causing hand-cancer, erectile-dysfunction, and anal-leakage...
Better switch before it's too late..
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Sometimes after a long typing session on variable Topre Realforce (30-45g), my index fingers have started to hurt.
I have not used other Topre that long. I prefer light Topre, such as the variable and I don't usually bottom out on Cherry MX.
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Got a question:
So if topre switches are basically modified rubber dome, does that mean that people who get sore fingers from topre will also get sore fingers from cheapo rubber dome keyboards? Kind of stands to reason as far as I can figure.
Just about everyone I have ever worked with in an office uses standard rubber dome keyboards, and I've never come across anyone mentioning finger pain from slamming the keys.
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Really interesting that some people's fingers hurt on Topre. I've been using my 55g Realforce at home and 45g HHKB type-s at work exclusively for, must be going on a year now, with no issue at all. In fact more the opposite, I often have to find an excuse to type something :)
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So if topre switches are basically modified rubber dome, does that mean that people who get sore fingers from topre will also get sore fingers from cheapo rubber dome keyboards? Kind of stands to reason as far as I can figure.
In my case, yes. That is one of the main reason why I started using mechanical keyboards.
However, the cheapo rubber dome keyboards I used before the switch were much worse for me than Topre. I also used nothing but mechanical keyboards (Cherry MX, Alps) for over a year from the switch to using Topre regularly, so the Topre pain was not because I was already sore.
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So... I saw in another thread a few people mentioning how different Topre boards hurt their fingers. Have you experienced this? If so, on which brand / board / switch type (variable, 45g, 55g)?
No, definitely NO.
I have a Novatouch, several Realforces (uniform 45g and variable weight), an FC660C and a HHKB Pro 2 Type S.
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No finger pain at all. I have both 45g and 55g boards. Both are very comfortable to type on.
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So if topre switches are basically modified rubber dome, does that mean that people who get sore fingers from topre will also get sore fingers from cheapo rubber dome keyboards? Kind of stands to reason as far as I can figure.
Just about everyone I have ever worked with in an office uses standard rubber dome keyboards, and I've never come across anyone mentioning finger pain from slamming the keys.
Yes. And finger pain from typing on rubber domes is actually very common. Fortunately, most office workers don’t type continuously for long periods of time, but just type a little bit here and there.
In a fairly substantial survey, 15–20% of office workers reported suffering finger pain. That’s less than the >30% who reported wrist pain, or the >60% who reported neck pain, but still pretty common I’d say.
http://occmed.oxfordjournals.org/content/53/7/443.reprint
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Got a question:
So if topre switches are basically modified rubber dome, does that mean that people who get sore fingers from topre will also get sore fingers from cheapo rubber dome keyboards? Kind of stands to reason as far as I can figure.
Just about everyone I have ever worked with in an office uses standard rubber dome keyboards, and I've never come across anyone mentioning finger pain from slamming the keys.
Hello jam..
I've answered Your question in the following thread.. scroll down to Topre
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69584.0
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I'm on a Novatouch 45g and I must confess that it did at the beginning. However now I'm ok with and I must add that I am in love with it too! Damn I love those so much that I sold my Poker and I am considering an HHKB as a replacement.
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Very interesting. It seems to be quite an individual thing, some have pain, others don't.
The force curve of rubber dome and Topre boards makes it difficult to not bottom out, and to do so with some force, which I suspect is a big factor in this.
I get pain from typing with MX Blacks and Topre, but for subtly different reasons, although they both have to do with bottoming out with force. On linear switches I tend to keep pressing until I get some tactile confirmation of actuation, which in this case is hitting bottom out. Also, I don't like orings / trampolines on linear switches, probably because it dampens this "tactility". The end result is that I'm pushing them with some force still when they hit bottom and of course this causes strong shock and fatigue. On Topre, the tactility is different, but I still hit bottom out with some force, partly due to the force curve of the switch and partly due to old habits on rubber dome boards, since the feel is similar.
I could learn to not bottom out on linears and to do so with less force on Topre, but like CPTBadAss my board is a tool and should suit me, without requiring a large effort / time "learning" how to use it, and my trampoline modded ErgoClears do that for me. They have the tactility I crave with the combined increasing spring force and trampolines to "rebound" my fingers once I release the force after feeling them actuate.
This could also be the reason that people who switch to Topre after a long time on MX like it so much, because they may already have learnt how to type without force still applied to the fingers at bottom out, whereas some people who go straight to Topre may not.
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NO NO NO. My topre board feels amazing to my fingers, the more I used it the more I favor it over my other keyboards. It is a silenced FC660C with the PBT keycaps.
My only complaint so far is a small shiny wear mark on the right side of the spacebar, well that and the fact that I have to remap ctrl-shif-esc on on all my computers by creating a shortcut and filling in the hotkey as ctrl-shift-`
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it hurts when I don't type on it.
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nope and i bottom out hard af
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Haven't experienced any pain thus far. I don't think I will to be honest. I'll come back to you on that once I try out 55g.
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Just exactly how hard do you guys type?
I don't think I've had one switch hurt my fingers. Whether it's crappy linear, tactile or topre.
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Just exactly how hard do you guys type?
I don't think I've had one switch hurt my fingers. Whether it's crappy linear, tactile or topre.
The milk so stronk
I think it's cause you must drink all your milk
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Bottoming out on Topre and MX are different as well...There is a cushion when you bottom out on Topre although it doesn't compress more..it is still far different than MX where that cushion doesn't exist...
I do agree though, you could make your tool adjust to you..not you adjust to your tool...
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I've been using Topre for a week now, and haven't experienced any pain. Like others have said, I have found excuses to type on it.
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Got a question:
So if topre switches are basically modified rubber dome, does that mean that people who get sore fingers from topre will also get sore fingers from cheapo rubber dome keyboards? Kind of stands to reason as far as I can figure.
No pain for me on Topre, that includes variable, uniform 45g, and uniform 55g Realforce's. I do have pain with rubber dome/ membrane, though.
I think the difference is that with Topre there's no need to mash it- just give enough force to get over the tactile bump (where it actuates) and then ride the key the rest of the way down, versus RD+membranes where you have to keep pushing after bottoming out. I can see how if you treat a Realforce as a RD+membrane it could be a problem, though, as the more solid construction and plate will make the bottom out harsher.
On the other hand, I did find that linear Cherry switches made my fingers hurt as the lack of tactility didn't give me any signal to stop applying pressure, so I would bottom out hard while still applying muscle to depress the key. That was no fun, but o-rings helped that a little.
I also don't think I'd call Topre's a "modified rubber dome" as the sensing mechanism is completely different (capacitive vs contact closure), but that's another argument for another time, and is something of a religious debate anyway.
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So if someone gets finger pain on membrane or MX, then I would guess that a BS board would absolutely kill their hands? The impact from BS is huge compared to other switches, though I really do like them- closest thing to old school typewriter keys.
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So if someone gets finger pain on membrane or MX, then I would guess that a BS board would absolutely kill their hands?
Not necessarily. The very sharp tactile break makes a big difference in my experience.
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Someone seriously said that? No, the HHKB I have is very comfortable to type on.
Out of curiosity, which switches have you actually typed on Oobly?
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No, but most MX switches plate mounted do. I think its directly related to very tiny differences in how each of us type.
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Someone seriously said that? No, the HHKB I have is very comfortable to type on.
Out of curiosity, which switches have you actually typed on Oobly?
Yup: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69014.0
List of switch types I've typed on (ones I currently own are in bold):
MX Black, Brown, Clear, Blues, RealForce 55g uniform, ALPS clone (probably not representative of genuine ALPS, but gives an indication of the mechanism), Apple hairpin spring, SMK vintage linear, Model M (bolt modded), Model F.
Variants of MX: Black with Brown spring, Black with Clear spring, Black with 62g Korean spring, Clear with Brown spring, Clear with Black spring, Clear with 62g Korean spring.
All variants of MX listed above with and without plate, with and without orings and with "trampolines". 62g ErgoClears and Browns also with latex mod.
All variants of MX listed above with OEM caps, SP DCS, SP SA, GMK, Cherry thin PBT, Keycool PBT, Keycool POM.
Favourite: Plate mounted 62g ErgoClear with stickers, trampolines and latex, in an aluminium case with sculptured SA profile or thick POM keycaps.
Also like: Model F. Noisy, but nice :)
So if someone gets finger pain on membrane or MX, then I would guess that a BS board would absolutely kill their hands?
Not necessarily. The very sharp tactile break makes a big difference in my experience.
Agreed, BS have a relatively sharp increase in force at bottom out, but the buckled spring provides a good cushoining effect so it's actually not a harsh bottom out at all, at least this has been my experience with my Model M. Most likely they'd experience less pain, but possibly some fatigue from the heavier springs.
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I've never felt any pain with my variable weight 87U, or 45g FC660C. My Novatouch does feel noticeably more jarring to my hands however (although still far better than a standard membrane rubber-dome).
My V60 MX Green keyboard feels like it's giving my pinkies a workout!
If you're worried about finger pain, and you have a good typing technique, I'd recommend a variable weight Realforce. Otherwise I'd recommend improving your typing technique, without worrying about the keyboard.
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I always bottom out. I'm not going to change my style to suit the keyboard. The board should suit my needs. It's a tool for me. So the bottom out has that collapsing dome? That collapse feels very harsh to my hands. Imagine slapping your hands lightly on a desk repeatedly for 30 minutes. My hands feel like that after typing on Topre for long sessions.
That conveys my experience with the Novatouch well, especially the slapping of the hands on the desk because that's exactly how it feels. However, as someone else pointed out, that's likely because I'm a firm typer, and can move from MX Reds to MX Greys/Greens without my fingers being bothered. Topre's the only key-switch type I've encountered that actually punishes that.
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I always bottom out. I'm not going to change my style to suit the keyboard. The board should suit my needs. It's a tool for me. So the bottom out has that collapsing dome? That collapse feels very harsh to my hands. Imagine slapping your hands lightly on a desk repeatedly for 30 minutes. My hands feel like that after typing on Topre for long sessions.
That conveys my experience with the Novatouch well, especially the slapping of the hands on the desk because that's exactly how it feels. However, as someone else pointed out, that's likely because I'm a firm typer, and can move from MX Reds to MX Greys/Greens without my fingers being bothered. Topre's the only key-switch type I've encountered that actually punishes that.
Would be interesting to see how much shock people are actually getting when typing between the different switches...For example, lightly typing on my desk is so much more jarring than Topre it isn't even close...MX is slightly more jarring than Topre for me if I bottom out...If I lightly bottom out on MX then they're about the same...I'm sure everyone has a different interpretation...
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NO NO NO. My topre board feels amazing to my fingers, the more I used it the more I favor it over my other keyboards. It is a silenced FC660C with the PBT keycaps.
My only complaint so far is a small shiny wear mark on the right side of the spacebar, well that and the fact that I have to remap ctrl-shif-esc on on all my computers by creating a shortcut and filling in the hotkey as ctrl-shift-`
Baby :-*
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66623.0
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I'm rather curious what's causing the significantly different experiences here. I'm another in the camp of no pain, and I bottom out pretty hard on everything. In fact, I actually really like the feeling of hitting bottom on metal plate topre (so much I'm using my FC660C over my HHKB even though I like the HHKB design more).
I wonder if it's a matter of how we physically type, like hand/wrist position and stuff. Or I wonder if the people experiencing pain are those who don't bottom out on cherry but do on topre due to the collapse.
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I'm putting it down to weak moral fibre :D
I bottom out hard on everything too. One of the reasons I didn't like stock Clears was that the ramp up force just before bottom out was stopping me from bottoming out comfortably. Recently switched to ErgoClears and I can now slam the keys all the way down so there's more a feeling of shock against the metal plate as the switch bottoms out.
Seriously though, the more time I spend on GH reading other peoples' experiences and opinions, the more firmly I am convinced that this keyboard stuff is incredibly subjective.
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I posted in the original discussion.
I bottom out only lightly if at all on anything but stiff clicky Alps [clones], sticky switches and sometimes scissor switches. My fingers hurt from typing only sometimes on [plate-mounted] scissor switches and certain domes (e.g., HHKB), regardless of type of mounting. The problem is likely in the stiffer tactile point and force fall-off (that jacobolus appears to praise). OTOH I enjoy the cloud of boobs on linear switches.
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The guy who sold me the RF said it hurt his finger and that's why he sold it. :D
But I enjoy typing on it, same as on my HHKB.
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So if someone gets finger pain on membrane or MX, then I would guess that a BS board would absolutely kill their hands? The impact from BS is huge compared to other switches, though I really do like them- closest thing to old school typewriter keys.
It's weird. Topre hurts my hands but BS doesn't.
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The realforce 87U 55G is the best thing my fingers have ever typed on. Period.
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Train with Grey MX, your GF will be thankful as well...
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If anything been hurt, it's the wallet. X_x
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If anything been hurt, it's the wallet. X_x
Completely worth it though. You know its true.
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Train with Grey MX, your GF will be thankful as well...
lololololol
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Been using a Realforce 45g at work for almost a month, no pain at all. MX Clears did give me terrible pinky pain, though.
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No, they don't hurt—but after all the fuss, I found them overrated. They're better than standard rubber domes, if for no other reason that they don't immediately start wearing out and getting mushy. But compared to MX-style switches and buckling springs, there's no question they slow me down.
I also find it distracting, even annoying, the way Topres make the most noise when they return to their start positions rather than when you're actually using them. It's like watching a movie whose audio is slightly out of sync.
I don't know why Topres should be more expensive than other good mechanical switches. I think it's largely mystique—only one company makes them, and their KBs look elegant, and the boxes are impressively minimalist (e.g. just the KB's name in the middle). They've created a kind of cult mindset.
But no, Topres don't hurt. Neither do any other switches, in my experience—but it's still a good thing to be able to say about anything. :?)
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When I tried my first topre (novatouch), my pinky was a tiny bit sore for about 5 minutes after I first used it. However, once I put my thick Leopold PBT caps on it, this went away completely. At the same time, I don't like the feel of the KUL I am typing on right now as much as I liked the Monoprice 9181 that introduced me to mechanical keyboards. So I think maybe it's an issue of plate mounting sensitivity in my case- I suspect I would actually prefer a board without plate-mounted switches. However, I like having function keys (occasionally I play Starcraft), and they don't make a HHKB with 35g switches, so I'm going to see how I like the Noppoo EC108 Pro I have on order from massdrop (plate mounted, but a thin sheet of aluminum AFAIK), and go from there.
Ergonimics are so individual, that discussing them can be difficult but is always interesting :)
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No, they don't hurt—but after all the fuss, I found them overrated. They're better than standard rubber domes, if for no other reason that they don't immediately start wearing out and getting mushy. But compared to MX-style switches and buckling springs, there's no question they slow me down.
I also find it distracting, even annoying, the way Topres make the most noise when they return to their start positions rather than when you're actually using them. It's like watching a movie whose audio is slightly out of sync.
I don't know why Topres should be more expensive than other good mechanical switches. I think it's largely mystique—only one company makes them, and their KBs look elegant, and the boxes are impressively minimalist (e.g. just the KB's name in the middle). They've created a kind of cult mindset.
But no, Topres don't hurt. Neither do any other switches, in my experience—but it's still a good thing to be able to say about anything. :?)
Tldr. I stopped after the first sentence. Awesome it doesn't hurt!
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No, the only time I've ever had any discomfort was going from MX Black to MX Red for the first time and was bottoming out too hard.
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When I tried my first topre (novatouch), my pinky was a tiny bit sore for about 5 minutes after I first used it. However, once I put my thick Leopold PBT caps on it, this went away completely.
(snipped)
Just to be sure, are you seriously implying a causal link here?
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I find topre to be gentler on my hands than MX. Not sure if this is due simply to the switches being lighter (45g novatouch vs stock clears) or some other factor. Using DCS caps on both boards.
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No, they don't hurt—but after all the fuss, I found them overrated. They're better than standard rubber domes, if for no other reason that they don't immediately start wearing out and getting mushy. But compared to MX-style switches and buckling springs, there's no question they slow me down.
I also find it distracting, even annoying, the way Topres make the most noise when they return to their start positions rather than when you're actually using them. It's like watching a movie whose audio is slightly out of sync.
I don't know why Topres should be more expensive than other good mechanical switches. I think it's largely mystique—only one company makes them, and their KBs look elegant, and the boxes are impressively minimalist (e.g. just the KB's name in the middle). They've created a kind of cult mindset.
But no, Topres don't hurt. Neither do any other switches, in my experience—but it's still a good thing to be able to say about anything. :?)
(http://memestorage.com/_nw/38/14977506.jpg)
But in all seriousness:
Can we not turn this into a Topre vs. MX thread?
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Crazily enough for me, Topre actually helped my fingers stop hurting. Used to get awful pain in my index fingers while typing on MX Browns / MX Reds (daily driver was the browns though). Switched to a variable weight Topre Realforce, and my finger pain has been going away ever since. Not to mention my typing has gotten significantly faster and more accurate ever since switching over.
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The only Topre I have, 45g in HHKB, do not hurt my fingers.
In fact they feel quite light - I have a feeling I'd prefer 55g.
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I used to have a Realforce 87u 45g uniform, and Novatouch. Sold both of them after a few months because of finger pain. Before that I used MX switches for 6 years.
It feels like pain from drumming your fingers on a table. I am a programmer and type quite a bit at work. Before bringing in my own keyboard, I used the crappy rubber dome keyboard for 3 months without any issues.
My daily drivers are now Mx browns.
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Thank you all for your posts! Seems to really be an individual thing, depending on a person's typing style and habits and possibly even their physiology.
It does seem like a fair number of people do experience pain from typing on Topre, though, which I think is valuable information which I had not heard of before the posts in the other thread started popping up.
Topre seems to be the one switch type that people who like post about more than those who don't, creating a slightly unbalanced view for people new to this site. Just my opinion, but from what I have experienced in the last year+ of membership I think is valid.
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So if someone gets finger pain on membrane or MX, then I would guess that a BS board would absolutely kill their hands? The impact from BS is huge compared to other switches, though I really do like them- closest thing to old school typewriter keys.
I'd actually recommend BS keyboards for some people who have finger pain with MX or RD+Membrane keyboards. The tactility gives you a clear signal that there is no need to push the key any further after the actuation point- making it easy to learn to not bottom out. In addition, BS's don't have as severe of a force dropoff on the overtravel portion as Topre's do, which helps make the learning easier.
Therefore, it depends. Is your pain from applying enough force to actuate the switch (in which case BS is of no good here- give a Cherry brown, ergoclear, or blue, or the variable Topre a try), or is the pain from a habit of continuing to apply pressure once bottoming out as crappier RD+membrane keyboards teach you (in which case BS, or to a lesser extent uniform 45g or 55g Topre or Matias Alps, would be helpful). The problem is that MX's don't give nearly as clear of a tactile signal when they actuate (being all variations of linear switches) making them less useful for the latter group. My being a member of that latter group is why I hated all the Cherry MX switches I tried.
[/size]
[/size]We all type slightly differently and have different physiologies, which would be why keyboarding is a very subjective thing.
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Thank you all for your posts! Seems to really be an individual thing, depending on a person's typing style and habits and possibly even their physiology.
It does seem like a fair number of people do experience pain from typing on Topre, though, which I think is valuable information which I had not heard of before the posts in the other thread started popping up.
Topre seems to be the one switch type that people who like post about more than those who don't, creating a slightly unbalanced view for people new to this site. Just my opinion, but from what I have experienced in the last year+ of membership I think is valid.
If topre hurts your fingers, you're doing it wrong. Research correct typing techniques.
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Thank you all for your posts! Seems to really be an individual thing, depending on a person's typing style and habits and possibly even their physiology.
It does seem like a fair number of people do experience pain from typing on Topre, though, which I think is valuable information which I had not heard of before the posts in the other thread started popping up.
Topre seems to be the one switch type that people who like post about more than those who don't, creating a slightly unbalanced view for people new to this site. Just my opinion, but from what I have experienced in the last year+ of membership I think is valid.
If topre hurts your fingers, you're doing it wrong. Research correct typing techniques.
"Does that hurt when you do that? Then don't do that." - Guru Pitka
"You're holding it wrong." - Apple
For some, improving their typing technique will go a long way to alleviating their pain, for others it may not even if they follow every "correct typing" guideline (which is not easy since there are many which contradict each other and some that can be proven to be bad for the long term health of your fingers / wrists / tendons, etc). The simple fact of the matter is that different switch types have different responses and will suit different peoples' typing style and physiology.
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Thank you all for your posts! Seems to really be an individual thing, depending on a person's typing style and habits and possibly even their physiology.
It does seem like a fair number of people do experience pain from typing on Topre, though, which I think is valuable information which I had not heard of before the posts in the other thread started popping up.
Topre seems to be the one switch type that people who like post about more than those who don't, creating a slightly unbalanced view for people new to this site. Just my opinion, but from what I have experienced in the last year+ of membership I think is valid.
If topre hurts your fingers, you're doing it wrong. Research correct typing techniques.
The problem is the sudden drop-off in resistance which actually makes me bottom out on every keypress. The force of bottoming out is higher than on MX switches too.
Some people can avoid bottoming out, but I can't do that unless I slow down to 10wpm. Other people's fingers are not affected and are able to enjoy the sweet thocking. Unfortunately I am not one of them :(
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Is it possible to typing on fast speed (>80wpm) without bottom out on Topre board?
Can someone share a video for this? Really like to see this because for me, it is like a mission impossible.
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It’s been said before in other threads, though I don’t know if it’s been said here: you don’t have to totally avoid pressing the key to the bottom to avoid finger pain. The problem is not bottoming out per se. The problem is bottoming out hard, with a strong shock at the bottom of every stroke.
Since the rubber dome in a Topre keyboard buckles inward at a certain point, the switch resistance drops quite a bit below its peak resistance until quite near the bottom of the stroke, so it’s pretty hard to completely avoid the bottom. However, if you type with just enough force to get past the tactile point and actuate the switch, and then stop applying as much force after that point, your finger will touch down much more lightly at the bottom of the stroke before being bounced back up by the rubber dome decompressing. (Of course, try to type the same way on a Model M, or an Alps keyboard, etc.)
Try to think of your finger motions as light, springy, airy, like dancing across the keys. Try to avoid motions that feel heavy, like pounding or punching the keys. Follow-through = bad. Think of a volleyball set vs. a spike. Or as an analogy to a swinging arm movement, pretend you’re playing a snare drum, not hammering down a nail.
(Same goes for many other kinds of repetitive motions of course. You don’t want to be stomping down hard when you jog, or you’ll **** up all the joints in your feet and legs.)
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I bottom out only lightly if at all on anything but stiff clicky Alps [clones], sticky switches and sometimes scissor switches. My fingers hurt from typing only sometimes on [plate-mounted] scissor switches and certain domes (e.g., HHKB), regardless of type of mounting. The problem is likely in the stiffer tactile point and force fall-off (that jacobolus appears to praise). OTOH I enjoy the cloud of boobs on linear switches.
I just really appreciate tactile feedback, which I find helps me type much faster and more accurately. I accept that other people have different preferences.
To give you an idea where I’m coming from, I quite like these clicky switches: Alps plate spring, Marquardt “butterfly” plate spring, IBM beam spring, IBM Model F, SMK “Monterey” clicky, blue and amber Alps, clicky black Hi-Tek “space invaders”, Matias clicky ... but none of them is perfect for me.
What I ideally want is a switch that actuates about 1.2–1.5mm into a 4+mm stroke. I want the force to (linearly?) ramp from maybe 30 grams-force up to peak at about 60–65 grams-force (because of the short pre-actuation travel and force drop at actuation, this requires less work and feels much lighter than a Cherry MX switch with the same peak force), then steeply drop down by at least 15 grams and stay below peak force for maybe 1–1.5mm, before slowly ramping up in the last 1mm of the stroke, not fully bottoming out until 100+ grams-force. At the tactile drop, I want to hear a loud pleasant click sound, and have switch actuation right in the middle of the force drop, so that it’s impossible to get past the tactile/click point without actuating the switch, and also impossible to actuate the switch without clicking. On the upstroke, I want the switch to bounce my finger back upward past the tactile/click point, ideally with higher force than on the downstroke, but the return on beam spring type switches or Topre is also sufficient. The perfect switch should also have no wiggle/wobble, and no appreciable friction. Pressing the switch at an angle should cause it to depress along its usual axis with no sideways motion and no sticking. The switch mechanism itself should have no chatter, and just a slight bit of hysteresis, never missing presses or adding stray extra presses.
To compare that to the switches listed before: I’d prefer if Marquardt, both IBM, Alps plate spring, SMK, and Hi-Tek switches actuated earlier in the stroke and had longer post-actuation travel; if Model F, SMK, Alps, Matias, and Hi-Tek switches had a springier upstroke; if Marquardt, both IBM, amber Alps, and Matias switches were a bit less stiff; if Marquardt, all the Alps, and Matias switches had less wobble; if Alps and IBM beam/plate spring and Hi-Tek switches had a more satisfying sound; if Hi-Tek switches didn’t actuate before their click; if blue Alps, Alps plate spring, and black Hi-Tek had a bit more force drop at the tactile point; if all the switches had a springier stroke bottom; etc.
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Thank you all for your posts! Seems to really be an individual thing, depending on a person's typing style and habits and possibly even their physiology.
It does seem like a fair number of people do experience pain from typing on Topre, though, which I think is valuable information which I had not heard of before the posts in the other thread started popping up.
Topre seems to be the one switch type that people who like post about more than those who don't, creating a slightly unbalanced view for people new to this site. Just my opinion, but from what I have experienced in the last year+ of membership I think is valid.
If topre hurts your fingers, you're doing it wrong. Research correct typing techniques.
"Does that hurt when you do that? Then don't do that." - Guru Pitka
"You're holding it wrong." - Apple
For some, improving their typing technique will go a long way to alleviating their pain, for others it may not even if they follow every "correct typing" guideline (which is not easy since there are many which contradict each other and some that can be proven to be bad for the long term health of your fingers / wrists / tendons, etc). The simple fact of the matter is that different switch types have different responses and will suit different peoples' typing style and physiology.
This, plus desk layout, chair position and height, keyboard position etc. will also contribute towards a comfortable typing experience (or not, as the case may be).
Perhaps raising your chair, or trying a standing desk, might prove surprisingly therapeutic. Or perhaps not.