geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: techy1 on Sun, 08 March 2015, 20:33:41

Title: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: techy1 on Sun, 08 March 2015, 20:33:41
Hey guys. I was just wondering... Why are keysets (mainly) like bumblebee, broset, cherry replica, etc so expensive. Some keycaps are also quite expensive. Just wondering why this is. Thanks!
 :thumb:
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: dustinhxc on Sun, 08 March 2015, 20:46:16
It costs a lot for manufactures to print them. Signature Plastics, GMK, etc  Same with Keycaps, materials for mold, cast, supply demand, etc.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: PunksDead on Sun, 08 March 2015, 20:49:38
It costs a lot for manufactures to print them. Signature Plastics, GMK, etc  Same with Keycaps, materials for mold, cast, supply demand, etc.

dem limited runs
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: rowdy on Sun, 08 March 2015, 20:54:56
The more you buy, the cheaper it gets.  Unfortunately GH is not exactly a bulk wholesaler, and usually manages a couple of hundred sets, which is not usually not enough to qualify for any particular discount from the manufacturer.

The cheapest set I have seen is Tai Hao ABS doubleshot OEM profile.  The original set cost $6.50, but that was bumped up to $9 to include 1.25x modifiers and a standard 6.25x space bar.  Later Tai Hao GBs came in at $12 or something.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: ideus on Sun, 08 March 2015, 21:07:34

You are referring to some of the highest quality sets, like GMK, and some SP that are also not cheap. But, there are low cost sets, that are not even considered to be offered in sites like this, for example some lasered thin ABS.


In general the high cost of manufacturing of quality keycaps is what made them economically unfeasible with the cost reduction trend of input devices. It happens the same to the switches technologies that moved from complex discrete mechanical designs like cherry, to low cost mechanisms that use a rubber mat with domes and metal bubbles to replace the discrete switch technology with great savings.


In summary, the keyboard enthusiasts, by definition, are willing to pay hefty prices for high quality components, that the rest of the people consider outrageous due to the cheapo option in keyboards.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: dustinhxc on Sun, 08 March 2015, 21:55:39
It costs a lot for manufactures to print them. Signature Plastics, GMK, etc  Same with Keycaps, materials for mold, cast, supply demand, etc.

dem limited runs

*Cough Cough*

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2zdwwoz.jpg)
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: PunksDead on Sun, 08 March 2015, 21:59:08
It costs a lot for manufactures to print them. Signature Plastics, GMK, etc  Same with Keycaps, materials for mold, cast, supply demand, etc.

dem limited runs

*Cough Cough*

Show Image
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2zdwwoz.jpg)


the amount of things i would swallow for one blank Realforce set...
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Sun, 08 March 2015, 22:51:33
It costs a lot for manufactures to print them. Signature Plastics, GMK, etc  Same with Keycaps, materials for mold, cast, supply demand, etc.

dem limited runs

*Cough Cough*

Show Image
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2zdwwoz.jpg)


the amount of things i would swallow for one blank Realforce set...
You and me both.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: dustinhxc on Sun, 08 March 2015, 22:58:38
Me tooooooooooooooooooooo  ^-^
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: Findecanor on Sun, 08 March 2015, 23:09:51
*Cough Cough*

Show Image
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2zdwwoz.jpg)

Yeah, but those were made in Japan. Topre keycaps are like square melons.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: Korth on Sun, 08 March 2015, 23:19:26
You would think wider adoption of 3D printing tools would make small production runs less costly?

I expect the material cost to be something around $0.05 worth of plastics.  Its the labour we pay for, the person doing the physical work on each chunk of plastic.  (Dunno why, since Foxconn slave labour gets paid less than $0.05 anyways, but thats a different issue altogether.)  But the labour cost is minimized once the automation kicks in, any decent CNC/3DPrint setup should be able to spew forth tons of one-of-a-kind pieces along a programmed script, no?
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: bueller on Sun, 08 March 2015, 23:21:14
You would think wider adoption of 3D printing tools would make small production runs less costly?

I expect the material cost to be something around $0.05 worth of plastics.  Its the labour we pay for, the person doing the physical work on each chunk of plastic.  (Dunno why, since Foxconn slave labour gets paid less than $0.05 anyways, but thats a different issue altogether.)  But the labour cost is minimized once the automation kicks in, any decent CNC/3DPrint setup should be able to spew forth tons of one-of-a-kind pieces along a programmed script, no?

Most caps are injection molded. I doubt many 3D printers are able to match the quality that GMK provides.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 08 March 2015, 23:44:21
You would think wider adoption of 3D printing tools would make small production runs less costly?

I expect the material cost to be something around $0.05 worth of plastics.  Its the labour we pay for, the person doing the physical work on each chunk of plastic.  (Dunno why, since Foxconn slave labour gets paid less than $0.05 anyways, but thats a different issue altogether.)  But the labour cost is minimized once the automation kicks in, any decent CNC/3DPrint setup should be able to spew forth tons of one-of-a-kind pieces along a programmed script, no?

The fincancial cost to purchase, install, setup, program, and maintain those machines, molds, software gets to astronomical numbers very fast.  On top of the only reason those companies are even in business anyway, profit.

As I side note, I install and fix machinery in manufacturing facilities.  One of my last projects was installing a new mold pouring line at a John Deere Foundry.  That project was estimated to cost Deere about 25 million dollars.  Thats just the price to purchase and install the equipment, let alone molds, materials, consumables, power to melt that much iron, etc, etc. 

For the record molds for caps at Signature Plastics are in the realm of $5,000 each.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 09 March 2015, 01:16:58
You guys can swallow what you like, and I'll collect the printed sets :p
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: phoenix1234 on Mon, 09 March 2015, 01:22:12
The more you buy, the cheaper it gets.

 :thumb:
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: Sed8op8 on Mon, 09 March 2015, 05:02:00
It costs a lot for manufactures to print them. Signature Plastics, GMK, etc  Same with Keycaps, materials for mold, cast, supply demand, etc.

dem limited runs

*Cough Cough*

Show Image
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2zdwwoz.jpg)

Hey Dustin where EXACTLY do you live I'm going to be headed through MN and I would love to drop by and cough...cough... Say hi yes that's it i would like to chat  :thumb: j/k you always have the craziest stuff good sir. Do you mind if I ask what your profession is? Anyways beautiful pics and gear as ALWAYS. Don't mind me I'm just spoon deep in a jar of smuckers. Love it  :eek:
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: wade_blanshard on Mon, 09 March 2015, 05:51:01
It costs a lot for manufactures to print them. Signature Plastics, GMK, etc  Same with Keycaps, materials for mold, cast, supply demand, etc.

dem limited runs

*Cough Cough*

Show Image
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2zdwwoz.jpg)

Good God. That's so nice. ;-;
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: foxer on Mon, 09 March 2015, 05:52:51
Okay, that post above was me. I didn't realise I made a separate account for tapatalk. I'm dumb.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: JaccoW on Mon, 09 March 2015, 06:55:37
Okay, that post above was me. I didn't realise I made a separate account for tapatalk. I'm dumb.
Reported j/k
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: techy1 on Mon, 09 March 2015, 15:11:39
Thank you guys for all the responses. I was looking into buying some keysets but they are so freaking expensive!
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: ideus on Mon, 09 March 2015, 16:45:51
Thank you guys for all the responses. I was looking into buying some keysets but they are so freaking expensive!


If your reference are rubber dome keyboards yes. Maybe, you should give a second thought on considering this hobby.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: JaccoW on Mon, 09 March 2015, 17:54:34
Thank you guys for all the responses. I was looking into buying some keysets but they are so freaking expensive!
Keep in mind that the past few years GMK and custom SP legends have become much more readily available. Usually companies order those keysets at much larger numbers and often in standard colours meaning better prices. Before group buys were a thing we couldn't even get our hands on Cherry/GMK keys because it took us a while to find the place that bought the old machinery and was using it now.
Single novelty caps at $4-8 a piece from SP were the norm. Imagine paying $400+ for a DCS keycap set from Signature plastics!

We as a community managed to make this hobby more affordable. What you are also experiencing is wanting to be part of the 'old boys' that have all the cool stuff from years of collecting.
Don't. Even if it only for your wallet (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67980.0). ;)

In any standardized production environment the expensive part is when you have to stop the machines, clean them and prepare everything for another run. And even at 300 keysets, we are a limited run. :P
We are the freaks that have to have the non-standard colours, extended layouts or NEED that special combo here and there.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: Huxley2500 on Mon, 09 March 2015, 18:54:12
Supply and demand.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: nubbinator on Mon, 09 March 2015, 18:57:36
Supply and demand.

For resale.  For new caps it's economies of scale.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: rsac on Tue, 10 March 2015, 23:33:39
Heh, I was about to make the same topic, but then got derrailed. Good that I looked again before making a duplicate one.

So, where can I find cheap keycaps sets for making a custom keyboard? Because, besides the case, they seem to be the largest single cost. I did not expect that. A single mx-compatible keycap set is more expensive than my entire keyboard everwhere I looked. Even a blank one at Signature Plastics. And it is not because I'm buying too little, because I bought only one of my keyboard too.

And I've not found any keycaps for matias switches, so I guess they are not suitable to build a custom keyboard... The quiet click ones sounded nice, but I guess the cheap gateron browns will make do, and maybe even better for me.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: JaccoW on Wed, 11 March 2015, 05:06:21
Heh, I was about to make the same topic, but then got derrailed. Good that I looked again before making a duplicate one.

So, where can I find cheap keycaps sets for making a custom keyboard? Because, besides the case, they seem to be the largest single cost. I did not expect that. A single mx-compatible keycap set is more expensive than my entire keyboard everwhere I looked. Even a blank one at Signature Plastics. And it is not because I'm buying too little, because I bought only one of my keyboard too.

And I've not found any keycaps for matias switches, so I guess they are not suitable to build a custom keyboard... The quiet click ones sounded nice, but I guess the cheap gateron browns will make do, and maybe even better for me.
You could take a look at Tai Hao caps.
Alps are currently limited to vintage sets.

EDIT:
These (http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=40) Tai-Hao sets are available on MK.com (http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=40). Roughly $49 per set with free shipping.
In a GB some sets can be as cheap as $15 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58110.0).

If that is still too pricey... you might have picked the wrong hobby. :P

I could give you a more technical explanation why a GMK is more expensive than Tai-Hao or Signature Plastics if you want. ;)
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 11 March 2015, 08:24:39
The Keyboard Co now lists Matias keycaps on their site: http://www.keyboardco.com/index.asp

Can't remember who their partner is on the other side of the ocean, but they most likely will also start to stock them. Not a lot of options (white or black only so far), but at least it's something.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: Data on Wed, 11 March 2015, 11:55:03
Supply and demand.

For resale.  For new caps it's economies of scale.

Yep.  This exactly.

The solution is to get more people interested in custom/customizable keyboards.  As the hobby grows, economies of scale will allow prices to go down naturally.
Title: Re: Why are KeyCaps and KeySets SO EXPENSIVE?
Post by: rsac on Wed, 11 March 2015, 17:29:16
Heh, I was about to make the same topic, but then got derrailed. Good that I looked again before making a duplicate one.

So, where can I find cheap keycaps sets for making a custom keyboard? Because, besides the case, they seem to be the largest single cost. I did not expect that. A single mx-compatible keycap set is more expensive than my entire keyboard everwhere I looked. Even a blank one at Signature Plastics. And it is not because I'm buying too little, because I bought only one of my keyboard too.

And I've not found any keycaps for matias switches, so I guess they are not suitable to build a custom keyboard... The quiet click ones sounded nice, but I guess the cheap gateron browns will make do, and maybe even better for me.
You could take a look at Tai Hao caps.
Alps are currently limited to vintage sets.

EDIT:
These (http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=40) Tai-Hao sets are available on MK.com (http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=40). Roughly $49 per set with free shipping.
In a GB some sets can be as cheap as $15 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58110.0).

If that is still too pricey... you might have picked the wrong hobby. :P

I could give you a more technical explanation why a GMK is more expensive than Tai-Hao or Signature Plastics if you want. ;)
Thanks, on mechanical keyboards there are even cheaper sets than the Tai-Hao and the ones I saw on Signature Plastics. Still kinda pricey. But the GB set is a better price for sure. I guess there is no way around the economies of scale. I will probably wait some more to see what will come out of Axios and Keyboardio croudsourcing, or if there is a new GB like the one you linked.

And I don't plan to buy those things frequently. Even the "cheap" stuff seems made to last for quite a while, and the modularity of the keyswiches and controller, etc, means I can aways replace just the part that became problematic. I'm actually more worried about the possible time I will spend hacking keyboard firmwares. 

The Keyboard Co now lists Matias keycaps on their site: http://www.keyboardco.com/index.asp

Can't remember who their partner is on the other side of the ocean, but they most likely will also start to stock them. Not a lot of options (white or black only so far), but at least it's something.
Thanks, I'm looking for boring sets. But I think this round was won by cherry compatible swiches, for me. I hope in some years those matias swiches and keycaps will be more accessible, as the connector between them seems a simpler and better design than the cross shaped cherry mx stem.