geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: spremino on Tue, 01 September 2009, 12:17:12
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Hello,
I wonder why people here kind of despise scissor type keyboards because of their short key travel. I understand that on these keyboards you bottom out all the time, but you also don't bottom out with full force since they are both light and tactile. On such keyboards, I am not used to hit the keys, but I just rest my fingers on them and press down fast but light. OTOH, when I type on my Model M, my fingers have to travel more and with more force to activate the key, since the keys are heavier and the activation point is near the bottom. Flatter keys on scissors are more forgiving about finger positioning, too. Because of this, I type way faster and with less errors on my Toshiba's scissors. I type even faster on my EeePC chicklets.
Currently I'm waiting for a Cherry with blues. Maybe my doubts will disappear if this switches' activation point is higher than BS, and I manage not to bottom out on them.
Or maybe my Model M is defective?
I understand that these are subjective matters, but I'm asking because the feeling seems shared in this group.
Thanks for listening to this rant.
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My problem with low profile boards is that bottoming out, although quicker than on a regular keyboard, can be more traumatic, because you are a lot more suddenly hitting the bottom of the keyboard.
In my experience it takes at least 2mm of key travel to have a decent tactile point in the first place, which then naturally leads to the 4mm of travel common to most keyboards.
If there were as good of tactile mechanisms in 1mm as in 2mm of travel, then perhaps I would think more highly of low-profile keyboards.
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I tend to like scissors more than full-travel rubber domes, but I would rather not use either and use a different type of switch where I didn't have to bottom out at all.
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I have to admit that I was not sure I would like this low profile Topre with its short throw keys (3mm):
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4116&d=1251481111)
But the more I use it the more I like it. I've even adjusted to that short space bar with out issues. Key activation is about half way down which would make it about 1.5mm and the tactile feel of it is great. It feels about the same and maybe slightly better than my HHKB Pro. The only issues I'm having are with the right shift and back space. But I have remapped the key next to the up arrow to another shift key and the one next to the back space as another back space and I'm having less issues with it.
What I really want to find though is the one like this but with this layout:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4222&stc=1&d=1251830520)
I think Topre made one and I've even figured out how they were sold (Rack mount LCD and keyboard) check:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4223&stc=1&d=1251830757)
The literature I've found indicates that they did make it but I'm having a hard time finding it. On the PFU site where I got that layout from they indicate that CTC made it but I'm having issues finding who CTC. But that Rack mount setup above is made by them. So my guess is I just have to find the right country kit for that and I will find the keyboard.
But anyways just wanted to chime in and say that this little board is growing on me. Not sure I would like scissor switches though but some laptop keyboards are OK but not great. And this little Topre is heading toward a great rating.
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What I really want to find though is the one like this but with this layout:
Those two keys with diamonds on them aren't Alt keys. They're Meta keys. That is a Sun keyboard, so you would need a protocol converter or suitable KVM switch with conversion capabilities to attach it to a PC (or a Mac, for that matter).
I wonder why people here kind of despise scissor type keyboards because of their short key travel. I understand that on these keyboards you bottom out all the time, but you also don't bottom out with full force since they are both light and tactile.
Well, that is exactly the reason. The type of key switch that is preferred here is that which produces a tactile response prior to (and instead of) bottoming out. Since the scissor-switch mechanism used for very short key travel switches can't provide that, such keyboards are regarded as little superior to rubber-dome switches.
That, though, doesn't mean they aren't a reasonable compromise to allow laptops to be slim: it's probably quite unreasonable to expect any manufacturer would add 1/2 inch, or even 1 inch, of thickness to a laptop just to give it a high-quality keyboard feel, since thinness is a very important factor driving the popularity of a laptop. However, if some laptop maker were to use an improved scissors switch that provided an extra millimeter or two of key travel to provide some semblance of tactile feedback, I think it would be appreciated here.
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Those two keys with diamonds on them aren't Alt keys. They're Meta keys. That is a Sun keyboard, so you would need a protocol converter or suitable KVM switch with conversion capabilities to attach it to a PC (or a Mac, for that matter).
Seeing that I would only be using it on a Linux box or a Solaris box that should not be an issue for me. From what I understand the Linux keyboard driver will handle the sun keyboard protocol just fine. But I may be mistaken because I don't have a sun board to test with. I do know though that the keyboard driver has comments in it that leads me to believe that it will handle it. But the real question is will the connector be a PS/2 connector or one of those sun mini-din connectors. Oh well doesn't really matter at this point as I can't find one.
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It hurts. I fully appreciated this after using an apple aluminum keyboard for a while. I didn't even really notice it until I typed on a crappy dell membrane with a longer throw - it felt amazingly good compared to the apple keyboard.
Even nice scissor keyboards hurt my hands a bit. I didn't appreciate this fact until I got used to better keyboards. So I'd say you're in for a pleasant surprised with the blue cherries (just make sure to give them a week or two!).
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Seeing that I would only be using it on a Linux box or a Solaris box that should not be an issue for me. From what I understand the Linux keyboard driver will handle the sun keyboard protocol just fine. But I may be mistaken because I don't have a sun board to test with. I do know though that the keyboard driver has comments in it that leads me to believe that it will handle it. But the real question is will the connector be a PS/2 connector or one of those sun mini-din connectors. Oh well doesn't really matter at this point as I can't find one.
The linux kernel can be compiled with support for Sun keyboards. I noticed that option last night when I was recompiling mine.
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From what I understand the Linux keyboard driver will handle the sun keyboard protocol just fine.
You might be able to use a Sun keyboard on a PC after all. I noticed that Sun keyboards weren't described in the kbdbabel document. But I downloaded a copy of the Sun keyboard spec from Sun as well. One start bit, eight data bits, one stop bit, no parity. Sounds sort of like the PC keyboard data signal?
Sort of. Except there's no clock pin or signal. The scan codes are sent at 1200 baud from the keyboard, that is specified.
So if you want an adapter that just routes pins around... you would need to connect your Sun keyboard to one of the serial ports of your PC, not the keyboard port. Yes, Linux can be configured for that, I would think, but it's not as trivial as just using a different scan code translation table.
On the other hand, Microsoft's USB keyboard standard includes definitions for the special keys on a Sun keyboard; USB keyboards are compatible between the PC and that architecture as well.
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i don't want a laptop keyboard on my desk.
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I personally don't like them as much as full size keys because there isn't a distinctive gap between each key. My fingers have grown accustomed to those gaps and I rely on them to know where my fingers are on the keyboard.
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that's the same problem i have with the aluminum apple keyboard. i was sure at first that they were on a nonstandard spacing, but i measured it and they're the same ¾" spacing as a normal keyboard. but the keys are flat and i can't find the gap without looking down to reset all the time.
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They're even worse than ordinary rubber domes for me, because of the shorter travel. I also don't like the trend of scissor switched keyboards on desktops. A scissor-style keyboard is a compromised design to improve portability and reduce size in a laptop. I don't see why a worse design should proliferate just because it looks cool or because (as PC salesmen would want you to believe) nobody buys desktops any more. Incorporating fashion trends into computer designs might improve sales for cash-strapped manufacturers, but in the long run it's ruining the computing experience because most of it is done thoughtlessly.
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that's the same problem i have with the aluminum apple keyboard. i was sure at first that they were on a nonstandard spacing, but i measured it and they're the same ¾" spacing as a normal keyboard. but the keys are flat and i can't find the gap without looking down to reset all the time.
I'm quite a kinesthetic person...I learn by touch. That's probably why I don't have too much trouble changing from a regular keyboard to the Apple Aluminum.
Or maybe it has more to do with the fact that I learned to type on a laptop...I'm not sure.
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No curvature with scissor 'boards. Requires more stretch which is considered bad.
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Since the scissor-switch mechanism used for very short key travel switches can't provide that, such keyboards are regarded as little superior to rubber-dome switches.
no surprise, as every scissors keyboard i've seen IS a rubber dome switch keyboard. the scissors mechanism is there to stabilize the keys, and not actually a switch per se.
unless you're referring to some other type of scissors mechanism?
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Scissors are really bad in the hands of a 5yr old......I mean hair grows back but it takes a while.
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Scissors are really bad in the hands of a 5yr old......I mean hair grows back but it takes a while.
Holy necro, Batman.
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Scissors are really bad in the hands of a 5yr old......I mean hair grows back but it takes a while.
Holy necro, Batman.
My only excuse is search sucks....so I used google looking for something else....only read the thread title.....responded :-X
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We still have a couple of flaps cut into a door mat from when my offspring got hold of a pair of scissors when she was little.