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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Great Hierophant on Wed, 02 September 2009, 23:07:52

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: Great Hierophant on Wed, 02 September 2009, 23:07:52

When it comes to a keyboard, I have lived with the 101/104 layout for so long I have found it difficult to use anything else.  

I have an 83-key XT Model F and have no love for the tiny shift keys, vertical enter key, the raised keys, or crowded keypad.  The placement of the ~ and \ keys are not great (US keyboard layout user here).  

I read lots of praise for the construction quality of the 84-key AT Model F.  It does fix most of these problems, but the Esc, Num and Scroll Lock keys are in unusual positions.  The backspace key is irritatingly short.  If you use this in a modern computer, how will you deal with the lack of an F11 and F12?

Then there is the IBM Model M Spacesaver keyboard.  I feel IBM missed a good opportunity to provide an ideal compact keyboard layout.  Instead of giving us the extra arrow and cursor control keys, they should have put the numeric keypad on instead.  As with the AT Model F, they could put the Scroll Lock, Sys Req, Print Screen, Pause and Break functions on the Num Lock, /, *, -, + keys respectively.  I think anyone who works with numbers would have preferred this approach.  

The standard IBM Model M's 101-key layout is not free from criticism.  The Fat Enter key could be restorted by placing the \ key between the Right Control and Alt keys.  The space between the Left Control and Alt keys could be used for the Function key.  Windows and Menu keys could also be placed there.  But why should the spacebar have to be squeezed for these not particularly useful keys.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: quadibloc on Wed, 02 September 2009, 23:55:24

I generally agree with your comments; on my web page, with pictures, at

http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/kyb03.htm

among other things, I express similar sentiments.

But to make the Enter key as fat as I would like, it would not be enough to find someplace to put the |\ key (there are keyboards that squeeze the right-hand shift key to put it on the far side of that). The }] key would have to be moved as well.

And it's too late for that, I fear. It would be better, in my opinion, to go back to having a [] key and a {} key so that this could be done - because then one could go back to the official standard typewriter-pairing APL/ASCII coding (despite the current arrangement of braces and square brackets being superior in general).

At least, that would have made sense back when PCs were frequently used as terminals to log on to mainframes, where one might want to use APL. Today, the most powerful computers in the world tend to be made of the same chips as personal computers, just more of them.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 03 September 2009, 05:55:19

I've typed with short backspace keys long enough that it isn't really an issue for me, but I see your point.

My biggest beef with the 101 key ANSI layout is the Caps Lock key. I mean really, why?

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: JBert on Thu, 03 September 2009, 06:05:54

Quote from: Great Hierophant;114260

I have an 83-key XT Model F and have no love for the tiny shift keys, vertical enter key, the raised keys, or crowded keypad.  The placement of the ~ and \ keys are not great (US keyboard layout user here).

Yes, I wouldn't recommend the XT version to a US typist, but Europeans on the other hand still use this kind of layout.

In the end, it's hard to change a keyboard's layout. Live with it or use another one (as sad as it may be in case of th model F XT).

One question though: how you'd get an XT in the first place? These are a little rare after all.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 03 September 2009, 06:31:39

Quote from: JBert;114325

Yes, I wouldn't recommend the XT version to a US typist, but Europeans on the other hand still use this kind of layout.

In the end, it's hard to change a keyboard's layout. Live with it or use another one (as sad as it may be in case of th model F XT).

One question though: how you'd get an XT in the first place? These are a little rare after all.

The XT aren't that rare. The AT are.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: Great Hierophant on Thu, 03 September 2009, 08:33:17

Although rare, a Model F can be had if you are willing to pay the price.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: spremino on Thu, 03 September 2009, 12:46:54

Quote from: timw4mail;114324

My biggest beef with the 101 key ANSI layout is the Caps Lock key. I mean really, why?

Indeed, why?

Looking at all attempts to fix that key misplacement is funny: making a gap between it and A, making it fire after a delay (Apple Aluminium)...

Happily, remapping the Caps key to something useful is easy.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 03 September 2009, 13:01:11

Quote from: spremino;114435

Indeed, why?

Looking at all attempts to fix that key misplacement is funny: making a gap between it and A, making it fire after a delay (Apple Aluminium)...

Happily, remapping the Caps key to something useful is easy.

Well, with OS X it is, because you can map it via the Control Panel. With Windows you have to find a program to do it, and Linux...is more complicated.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 03 September 2009, 13:10:23

Quote from: timw4mail;114324

My biggest beef with the 101 key ANSI layout is the Caps Lock key. I mean really, why?

Blame typists. They complained that CapsLock wasn't where they were used to finding it on typewriters.
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/std_XT83.htm

Quote

Many PC users, after having complained for years about changes they wanted made to the PC keyboard layout, found they weren't all that happy with them once their wish was granted!

And the moral is, be careful what you wish for.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: cmr on Thu, 03 September 2009, 13:12:44

caps lock is cruise control for cool.

molon labe.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: spremino on Thu, 03 September 2009, 13:14:06

Quote from: timw4mail;114441

Well, with OS X it is, because you can map it via the Control Panel. With Windows you have to find a program to do it, and Linux...is more complicated.

Agreed. I'm a programmer, therefore it has been easier.

Anyway, for those interested, the Windows freeware is SharpKeys.

About Linux, I agree: you'll have to wrestle with XKBD or Xmodmap scripts :-(

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: cmr on Thu, 03 September 2009, 13:17:49

also i vehemently disagree that this large-enter, tiny-backspace, misplaced-backslash, mini-spacebar abomination (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/stdWin104-c.html) is the normal 104-key layout.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 03 September 2009, 13:33:18

Quote from: cmr;114447

also i vehemently disagree that this large-enter, tiny-backspace, misplaced-backslash, mini-spacebar abomination (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/stdWin104-c.html) is the normal 104-key layout.

True. His description is accurate, but his choice of photo is poor.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 03 September 2009, 13:40:21

That's the thing, though, why was Caps Lock useful?

I'm not too familiar with typewriting, but it seems like the only reason to use Caps Lock is to save energy when typing titles, symbols, or a lot of something that normally required Shift. And still, that seems applicable only when typing on a manual typewriter, not an electric typewriter, or a keyboard.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 03 September 2009, 13:41:36

Quote from: cmr;114447

also i vehemently disagree that this large-enter, tiny-backspace, misplaced-backslash, mini-spacebar abomination (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/stdWin104-c.html) is the normal 104-key layout.

That's a hold-over from the 84key layout.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 03 September 2009, 13:43:34

Usually, typewriters had a Shift Lock which was similar to Caps Lock, but it locked the shift function for all keys, not just caps.  Now, I use Caps Lock a lot when writing SQL, but I am not too sure what else would require heavy use of Caps Lock.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 03 September 2009, 13:45:01

Quote from: itlnstln;114457

Usually, typewriters had a Shift Lock which was similar to Caps Lock, but it locked the shift function for all keys, not just caps.  Now, I use Caps Lock a lot when writing SQL, but I am not too sure what else would require heavy use of Caps Lock.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I find it easier to just hold down shift...

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 03 September 2009, 13:48:16

It's not when writing long queries.  It also messes with your touch typing as your pinky is glued to the Shift key the whole time.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 03 September 2009, 13:51:47

Quote from: itlnstln;114460

It's not when writing long queries.  It also messes with your touch typing as your pinky is glued to the Shift key the whole time.

Fair enough. Although, I've kind of developed a sort of touch-typing when pressing Shift anyway...since I only ever use the left shift key.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: Rajagra on Thu, 03 September 2009, 19:49:48

Quote from: timw4mail;114459

Maybe I'm just weird, but I find it easier to just hold down shift...

Even when you're touch-typing and you have to keep swapping sides for the letters? It's quite a dance!

And spare a thought for everyone outside the US, we don't have that nice, easy-to-reach Shift key under the left pinkie.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: vicz on Thu, 03 September 2009, 20:07:34

Quote from: timw4mail;114441

Well, with OS X it is, because you can map it via the Control Panel. With Windows you have to find a program to do it, and Linux...is more complicated.

That depends on which Linux distribution you're using. On Ubuntu 9.04 (and I presume on all distributions that include a recent version of Gnome), you just have to check the "Make Caps Lock an additional Ctrl" box under System / Preferences / Keyboard / Layouts / Layout options / Ctrl key position.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: vicz on Thu, 03 September 2009, 20:15:42

Quote from: timw4mail;114459

Maybe I'm just weird, but I find it easier to just hold down shift...

I just type in lower case then go to command mode and type gUU to capitalize the current line. Yay vim.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 03 September 2009, 21:31:17

Quote from: vicz;114586

That depends on which Linux distribution you're using. On Ubuntu 9.04 (and I presume on all distributions that include a recent version of Gnome), you just have to check the "Make Caps Lock an additional Ctrl" box under System / Preferences / Keyboard / Layouts / Layout options / Ctrl key position.

Case in point.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 03 September 2009, 21:32:40

Quote from: Rajagra;114581

Even when you're touch-typing and you have to keep swapping sides for the letters? It's quite a dance!

And spare a thought for everyone outside the US, we don't have that nice, easy-to-reach Shift key under the left pinkie.

I think you missed the part where I said that I only ever use the Left Shift key. I have my own silly capitalization dance.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 04 September 2009, 02:50:10

Quote from: cmr;114447

also i vehemently disagree that this large-enter, tiny-backspace, misplaced-backslash, mini-spacebar abomination (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/stdWin104-c.html) is the normal 104-key layout.

I agree. But back when I was getting my first PC-compatible computer, a 10-Mhz computer using the NEC V20, I had to have my order especially amended to use a non-standard and more expensive choice of keyboard, a KeyTronics keyboard sold through U. S. Keyboards, to get the standard IBM 101-character layout.

In those days, when generic clone XT-compatible computers had just started coming out, nearly all the third-party keyboards had this kind of arrangement, and only a few had the standard one.

And even much later, if you go to magazine ads, both Gateway and Dell pictured their computers with that style of keyboard at first. Dell changed over to the standard layout much earlier than Gateway did, however.

So I can understand people mistakenly thinking that this particular arrangement, which retains elements from the 84-key AT keyboard design (after all, compared to the 83-key keyboard, it was deservedly popular) is the "standard".

Quote from: Rajagra;114581

And spare a thought for everyone outside the US, we don't have that nice, easy-to-reach Shift key under the left pinkie.

Given that two nonstandard versions of the 101/104-key keyboard are very common in the U.S. (and most of Canada, where the U.S. keyboard is used) which either put Backspace or Enter in the wrong place, I'm surprised that despite there being possible ways to make a nonstandard version of the 102/105-key keyboard that is more similar to the U.S. keyboard (one simple way would be to put the extra key on the far side of the right-hand Shift key) no one seems to be doing so.

Why are nonstandard keyboards that make things worse so easy to find, while nonstandard keyboards that make things better virtually nonexistent?

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 04 September 2009, 05:07:02

I think the evils of the backwards-L Enter and the small backspace are grossly over-exaggerated by people who have never used them.

Quote

That depends on which Linux distribution you're using. On Ubuntu 9.04 (and I presume on all distributions that include a recent version of Gnome), you just have to check the "Make Caps Lock an additional Ctrl" box under System / Preferences / Keyboard / Layouts / Layout options / Ctrl key position.

Im pretty sure that KDE also offers this functionality.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 04 September 2009, 08:01:53

Quote from: ch_123;114685

I think the evils of the backwards-L Enter and the small backspace are grossly over-exaggerated by people who have never used them.

Before the PC ever came along, as a student, I used a wide variety of computer keyboards. There was the 2741, which had everything in the "right" place. There was the 3270; the ones I used were set up to work as interactive terminals, so the Enter key was in a ridiculous place. There was the Tektronix 4010, the LA36 DECwriter, and various forms of Silent 700 terminal, and a matrix printing terminal from Anderson-Jacobson that I used. And I've used the Teletype Model 33 as well.

ASCII terminals, because they needed three (or four, if they were bit-pairing) "extra" keys if they supported lower-case, were prone to having the Enter key, or the Backspace key, or both, moved away from their normal spots. On the other hand, only IBM dared to think that the shift keys, right or left, could also be moved to make more room.

I used the original IBM keyboard, and never quite got used to it. It is true that moving the backspace key over one space is not all that evil - I've worked on terminals that moved it over two spaces - but I did have enough experience to know what I liked.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 04 September 2009, 08:26:21

When you say the original IBM keyboard, do you mean the PC/XT or AT one? Because I would find the PC/XT one a nightmare to type on. With the AT one, the layout is usable, and the keyboard's strong points overcome the bad layout.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 04 September 2009, 10:35:17

Quote from: ch_123;114698

When you say the original IBM keyboard, do you mean the PC/XT or AT one? Because I would find the PC/XT one a nightmare to type on. With the AT one, the layout is usable, and the keyboard's strong points overcome the bad layout.

I meant the PC/XT one. I had a job working with a group that managed to get authorization to purchase an IBM PC. While I was working there, another department on the same floor managed to get the then-$10,000 PC/AT when it came out.

While I thought that the idea of putting an extra key between the Z and the left shift key was terrible, IBM was simply following what it had done with the Selectric III typewriter and the 3278 terminal - as I note on my web page in defense of IBM against the accusation that they did this in a gratuitous fashion.

The 101-key layout isn't perfect, as the left Control key is moved from a location many people were used to on ASCII terminals stretching back to the Model 33 Teletype - which is why Sun offers an alternate version of its keyboard with that key there, and there's a switch setting for the HHKB, and so on. As a touch-typist, I find the convenience of also having a right-hand control key far outweighs that, and so with the other benefits of IBM's 101-key keyboard, I simply breathed a sigh of relief that they had gotten it right.

Moving the backspace key one place over, therefore, is not so terrible - but I just view it as gratuitous, and it implies the manufacturer isn't familiar enough with the history of keyboards to know that the standard arrangement is the best - because it corresponds well to that of an ordinary electric typewriter, up to and including the Selectric II, but also the other brands as well.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: vicz on Fri, 04 September 2009, 20:12:09

Quote from: timw4mail;114607

Quote

you just have to check the "Make Caps Lock an additional Ctrl" box under System / Preferences / Keyboard / Layouts / Layout options / Ctrl key position.

Case in point.

Well, checking one checkbox in a logically-placed and easy-to-find settings panel doesn't seem to me more complicated than having to find, install and run a third-party program. Some things are hard to do in Linux, but this isn't one of them.

ObKeyboard: I use a keyboard with dead keys, as I write French as often as English. The standard French keyboard (Canadian French, that is, not the abomination known as AZERTY) has a "dead cedilla" key that is used only in conjunction with the letter c to type ç or Ç. I thought that giving the cedilla its own key was wasteful, and changed my keyboard layout  so that  the grave accent key followed with c or C gives ç or Ç. It works very well. (It also means that I cannot type things like ȩ (that's e-with-cedilla) without using my Compose key, but I don't mind because those characters do not occur in French.)

Now that is a good example of a thing that's not so easy to do in Linux (one has to read manpages and use google-fu in order to learn the mysteries of xkb), but it's doable without having to resort to an external keyboard remapper or (as I had to do in Windows 98, back in the days) reverse-engineering keyboard driver formats then patching files with a binary editor.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 04 September 2009, 20:16:39

Quote from: quadibloc;114740

While I thought that the idea of putting an extra key between the Z and the left shift key was terrible, IBM was simply following what it had done with the Selectric III typewriter and the 3278 terminal - as I note on my web page in defense of IBM against the accusation that they did this in a gratuitous fashion.

I had read that it was because IBM wanted one keyboard layout for everyone, and adopted ISO to please the Europeans. People didn't take well to it so the AT layout was ANSI with a few concessions to the ISO people (eg. the large Enter is basically the ANSI and ISO enter stuck together). Eventually with the Model M, they just made ANSI ones for the US, and ISO ones for Europe, and everyone was happy.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: kode on Sat, 05 September 2009, 04:18:10

To be perfectly hones I don't really understand the fuzz with a smaller left shift, but I'm obviously biased as I've had that sort of layout since I first started out with computers some 15 years ago (typing away on a model m, no less), and I just don't have much experience typing on a keyboard with a larger left shift (I think I'd miss that handy little extra key...). Obviously a lot of you are the same, only the other way around. I could think that the \| key of us layouts is a bit large (even though I guess it could be nice to make those two characters without an alt-gr combo)

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: quadibloc on Sat, 05 September 2009, 08:37:42

Quote from: kode;114993

Obviously a lot of you are the same, only the other way around.

Yes, habit is the main issue here.

In my case, I live in Canada, and not in Quebec. Thus, where I live, we only speak English, and we use the U.S. keyboard layout (as opposed to even using the U.K. English keyboard layout, which also has the extra key).

But in 1981, when the IBM PC came out, I had already been touch-typing for ten years on typewriters, keypunch machines, and computer terminals. None of them had an extra key between Z and the left-hand shift. (There were such keyboards in existence, for example on the IBM 3278 terminal, but they were rare.)

Only on computer terminals did I have to deal with cases where the backspace and Enter/carriage return keys were out of reach (of course, on a manual typewriter, one had to lift one's left hand off the keyboard to push the lever...) so I welcomed the U.S. 101-key layout when it arrived. The 84-key AT layout may have been an improvement, but the 101-key U.S. layout was, to my mind, simply when they got it right.

For people in Europe who are content with their standard keyboard arrangement, there is no problem, but I am surprised, since alternatives to the standard 101-key layout are common here, that I can't seem to see cases where the 102-key layout has been modified to put the extra key somewhere less obtrusive.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 05 September 2009, 09:37:56

Somewhat unrelated, but what did you think of the 3278 keyboard? They were meant to be one of the first BS keyboards made by IBM.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: spremino on Sat, 05 September 2009, 10:33:19

Quote from: kode;114993

To be perfectly hones I don't really understand the fuzz with a smaller left shift...

European here. Once you'll try a US keyboard, you'll realize how more comfortable is a larger left Shift. The European's Enter is also farther to reach. I resorted to mapping Caps to Shift and shifting right hand keys a column to the right.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: kode on Sun, 06 September 2009, 04:40:25

Not so sure about that. My netbook has a us key layout, and the lack of that extra key to the left of z really shows. I ended up remapping the menu key to be that key. I might just go with using us international layout on it, though, and see if that helps any. Old habits die hard, though.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: spremino on Mon, 07 September 2009, 04:04:26

Quote from: kode;115232

Not so sure about that. My netbook has a us key layout, and the lack of that extra key to the left of z really shows. I ended up remapping the menu key to be that key. I might just go with using us international layout on it, though, and see if that helps any. Old habits die hard, though.

Agreed. Using a european layout on a US keyboard does not work.

I do not recommend you switch layout to use your current netbook, unless you are committed to stick with US keyboards for your future buys. I was going to do just that, but then I discovered Japanese keyboards, and now I looking to get one. I think I'll stick with them.

Maybe you could replace your netbook keyboard with an european one, if that makes sense to you.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: quadibloc on Mon, 07 September 2009, 08:44:30

Quote from: kode;115232

Not so sure about that. My netbook has a us key layout, and the lack of that extra key to the left of z really shows. I ended up remapping the menu key to be that key.

Obviously, a "better" layout doesn't outweigh a key you need being missing from the keyboard. But the question is, why couldn't the extra key have been put somewhere else, where it would not have caused problems? Admittedly, the 101-key layout already seems to have keys placed in all the reachable areas.

Ah, there's one obvious possibility. Move the main typing area over slightly, to narrow the | \ key on the right of the U.S. layout to a single-key width... and that would widen the Caps Lock key to double-width. That way, the extra key could be put on the near side of it, making it much more reachable than it would be on the far side of the right shift key.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: vicz on Mon, 07 September 2009, 13:08:47

Quote from: quadibloc;115472

Ah, there's one obvious possibility. Move the main typing area over slightly, to narrow the | \ key on the right of the U.S. layout to a single-key width... and that would widen the Caps Lock key to double-width. That way, the extra key could be put on the near side of it, making it much more reachable than it would be on the far side of the right shift key.

My idea of the best keyboard layout changes constantly. Having used ISO and Japanese keyboards in the past, I know that having extra keys is very nice, but I am also used to the comfort and roominess of the US keyboard with its wide shift keys and wide space bar.

I think the HHKB layout, with a 1.5-width backspace right above enter, and the usual double-width backspace replaced by two normal keys, allowing escape to be in its rightful place left of 1, is very good. In fact, at the moment, my dream keyboard would be a Topre 86U with all 45g keys and the HHKB layout for the top two rows.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: vicz on Mon, 07 September 2009, 21:27:57

Quote from: ripster;115525

The HHKB2 layout ain't bad but it needs one more key.  I like the extra key next to Left Shift.  It's highly accessible and I'm trying to decide whether it's better as a FCN key or a BackSpace.

I can't stand having an extra key between Left Shift and Z, but that's a personal thing.

To me, the area below the space bar, in the middle, is a great place to put function keys (and chording keys in general), since they can be hit by the thumbs. See for instance the Canon Cat (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Canon_Cat_keyboard.jpg)'s two leap keys. I would like to see quality keyboard makers offer similarly-placed keys. I'd probably put the third level shift (a.k.a. AltGr) on them, liberating the more awkwardly-placed right Alt key for some other use.

I'd really like to try a Cat keyboard some day. If it's based on the same technology as contemporary Canon typewriters (and the keys look very similar on the Wikipedia photo linked above), it must be very comfortable.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: joniho on Mon, 07 September 2009, 22:19:50

Is there any benefit to having the rows on all standard keyboards offset by 1/4 and 1/2 of the key? Why not have them aligned into columns as well like numpads?

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: wellington1869 on Mon, 07 September 2009, 22:22:07

Quote from: joniho;115658

Is there any benefit to having the rows on all standard keyboards offset by 1/4 and 1/2 of the key? Why not have them aligned into columns as well like numpads?

there are keyboards that do that -
http://www.typematrix.com/

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: Rajagra on Mon, 07 September 2009, 22:42:04

Quote from: vicz;115647

To me, the area below the space bar, in the middle, is a great place to put function keys (and chording keys in general), since they can be hit by the thumbs.

Amen to that, brother!

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3055&d=1246993943)
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=101602&postcount=39

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: msiegel on Mon, 07 September 2009, 22:45:03

Quote from: Rajagra;115662

Amen to that, brother!

i'm liking your layout ideas more and more :)

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: joniho on Mon, 07 September 2009, 22:46:45

Quote from: wellington1869;115659

there are keyboards that do that -
http://www.typematrix.com/

The Delete/Shift/Enter keys look like a pain to reach for.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: JBert on Tue, 08 September 2009, 03:17:41

Quote from: Rajagra;115662

Amen to that, brother!

http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=101602&postcount=39

Interesting enough, this is something I've been wanting to do on a Compaq MX11800.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: quadibloc on Tue, 08 September 2009, 07:25:08

Quote from: ripster;115665

Pure historical artifact.

Indeed. So we have QWERTY offset by 50% from the number keys and 25% from the ASDF row, and a 50% offset for the ZXCVB row, so that the levers going up from the keys could all reach the levers that would connect them to the type basket.

So, naturally enough, builders of electronic keyboards wished to duplicate the arrangement of keys on a four-bank keyboard so that touch-typists who learned on typewriters would find the keys exactly where they expected them.

Of course, on a keyboard with only three banks - think of a Model 19 teletype, a Varityper, or an old three-bank Corona - the offset was 33 1/3% for all the rows.  But that's a much less common and familiar arrangement.

So standard keycaps, if not designed to take up the standard 3/4" by 3/4" space on a keyboard (19.05mm) are lengthened in increments of 3/16" in order to fit around a standard typewroter layout. Thus, without a big tooling charge, those are the building blocks keyboard designers have to work with.

At least they were brave enough not to stagger the numeric keypad.

And I'd illustrated this, but only with a diagram, on my site as well:

(http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/images/kyborg.gif)

I'll have to take a photo of the keyboard of my old Flexowriter someday as another way of illustrating this.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Tue, 08 September 2009, 08:11:30

Quote from: quadibloc;115685

Show Image

(http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/images/kyborg.gif)

Where do you find one of these 101 key typewriters? :rolleyes:

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: Mikael le Fou on Tue, 08 September 2009, 16:40:31

Quote from: joniho;115664

The Delete/Shift/Enter keys look like a pain to reach for.

Hello ! the Delete for sure but here (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9kqf9_typematrix-2030-bepo-76-mpm_tech) you can see a french guy typing with a local dvorak (the Bépo)

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: wellington1869 on Tue, 08 September 2009, 16:57:57

omg, is that our first frenchman? :)
I dont recall anyone (admitting to being) french before! :D
(wait - does he have 10 posts yet? Damn.)

Actually I think its pretty cool that yet another nation has discovered mechanical switches :)

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: joniho on Tue, 08 September 2009, 17:05:35

Quote from: Mikael le Fou;115872

Hello ! the Delete for sure but here (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9kqf9_typematrix-2030-bepo-76-mpm_tech) you can see a french guy typing with a local dvorak (the Bépo)

I type using the Japanese IME on occasion so having an easily accessible Enter key is crucial. But for English that seems like an efficient layout.

There needs to be some kind of Keyboard Revolution so we can get rid of historical artifacts like QWERTY and key staggering that bog down efficiency! (I have nothing to back up the last statement but it seems like another left-over from the pre-electronic days that serves no practical purpose in the here and now).

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: Mikael le Fou on Tue, 08 September 2009, 18:19:30

Quote from: ripster;115874

Mikael, Welcome to Geekhack!
 I guess I'll have to lay off the french jokes for a while.  That's one quiet keyboard.

Thanks, no problem for the french jokes :D
The TM is already quiet but even more with silicone skins.

 

Quote from: wellington1869;115882

omg, is that our first frenchman? :)
I dont recall anyone (admitting to being) french before! :D
(wait - does he have 10 posts yet? Damn.)
 Actually I think its pretty cool that yet another nation has discovered mechanical switches :)

I can't believe I am the first french...  we like mechanical switches too, less than the german of course :p

Quote from: joniho;115885

There needs to be some kind of Keyboard Revolution so we can get rid of historical artifacts like QWERTY and key staggering that bog down efficiency! (I have nothing to back up the last statement but it seems like another left-over from the pre-electronic days that serves no practical purpose in the here and now).

Impossible mission but one of these days, who knows ?

I support strongly Dvorak and unstaggered keyboard.

Speaking of japanese, I just found this one last night...

(http://www.ttools.co.jp/product/hand/aiueo_kbd/images/aiueokeyb_m.jpg) (http://www.ttools.co.jp/product/hand/aiueo_kbd/index.html)
http://www.ttools.co.jp/product/hand/aiueo_kbd/index.html

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Tue, 08 September 2009, 18:26:52

Quote from: Mikael le Fou;115911

Impossible mission but one of these days, who knows ?

I support strongly Dvorak and unstaggered keyboard.

Speaking of japanese, I just found this one last night...

Show Image

(http://www.ttools.co.jp/product/hand/aiueo_kbd/images/aiueokeyb_m.jpg) (http://www.ttools.co.jp/product/hand/aiueo_kbd/index.html)

http://www.ttools.co.jp/product/hand/aiueo_kbd/index.html

That's a very interesting keyboard, but the placement of the Caps Lock key, and the one key stagger of the bottom row seems to be counter-intuitive.

Any clue what kind of switches that keyboard might have?

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: joniho on Tue, 08 September 2009, 18:28:56

Quote from: Mikael le Fou;115911

Speaking of japanese, I just found this one last night...

Show Image

(http://www.ttools.co.jp/product/hand/aiueo_kbd/images/aiueokeyb_m.jpg) (http://www.ttools.co.jp/product/hand/aiueo_kbd/index.html)

http://www.ttools.co.jp/product/hand/aiueo_kbd/index.html

That's interesting that they arranged it by the Japanese phonetic alphabet column-by-column, and each finger is responsible for that column. This might help for memorization but it might be as inefficient as arranging the Latin alphabet alphabetically. Also I'm having nightmares of the Caps Lock key being where Shift normally is. If the bottom Latin-letter row was moved left a space (and the Caps was a normal-sized key or even a normal-sized Shift) then it might work.


At the bottom:

Quote

キースイッチ ： メカニカル（ドイツ Cherry社　MXシリーズ 茶軸）

MX Brown Cherries.


EDIT: Any of the better Japanese speakers here know how to describe the key alignment in Japanese?

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Tue, 08 September 2009, 19:02:52

Quote from: ripster;115925

Brown Cherries.  Crap.  I just convinced myself not to fool around with non-standard key staggering.

$200.  Oh.   Nevermind.

Yeah, $200 is too much for a curiosity board.

One of these days I should draw up a decent layout... but first I'd have to find software to do it I guess...

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: quadibloc on Tue, 08 September 2009, 19:57:09

Quote from: timw4mail;115692

Where do you find one of these 101 key typewriters?

I don't know... but I'm sure that some steampunk converters will try for that last measure of authenticity.

Note from the diagram one thing I've noticed on real typewriters - the tab bar (on manual typewriters, it's a long bar above the keyboard, like the space bar, but shorter) and the space bar are supported by levers that go halfway between the 1/4 key (3/16") intervals defined by the key staggering.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: quadibloc on Tue, 08 September 2009, 20:01:25

Quote from: timw4mail;115929

One of these days I should draw up a decent layout... but first I'd have to find software to do it I guess...

I use Paintbrush myself (from Windows 3.1) (I find the interface easier to use than that of Paint).

While I don't approve of that layout either, I noticed from the larger photo on the web site that it approximates a QWERTY layout for the Latin alphabet, but with an extra row of keys between the bottom row and the spacebar. It's certainly easy enough for the thumbs to reach that far down, so it is a possibility that could be explored for a keyboard design with normal staggering of the keys in the rows.

EDIT: I thought I'd give another try to designing the "perfect" layout. Of course, small variations, like going back to the standard 101-key layout for the main typing area, to avoid keys between it and the function keys, putting the Windows keys back, and so on, are possible to better match individual preferences:
(http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/images/ideal4.gif)

EDIT: Hmm. Might want to switch the Caps Lock and Print Screen to match the order of the lights...

EDIT: As you'll notice, I've done that. Since this image is on my web site, I can't really keep the old version when I make a change. (The old version did not have the Windows keys, shown by diamonds, and so the five keys above Insert et cetera were one key to the left, and they were in the order Caps Lock, Num Lock, Print, Scroll Lock, Pause.)

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: joniho on Wed, 09 September 2009, 13:32:28

I remember Wellington linking the TypeMatrix non-standard layout board; they come in blank keys too.

(http://www.typematrix.com/images/2009-skins/023-b_blank_1000x422.png)

This could be fun for custom key mappings. Like remapping the right Shift as an Enter key (because I'm stubborn like that).

If only they had mechanical switches.

EDIT: Just realized these are just silicone skins that wrap around the original keyboard. Might be a lot of typos this way.
EDIT2: There IS a blank model though:
(http://www.typematrix.com/images/bepo/2030usb_blank_640x275.jpg)

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: spremino on Wed, 09 September 2009, 13:47:19

Quote from: quadibloc;115963

While I don't approve of that layout either, I noticed from the larger photo on the web site that it approximates a QWERTY layout for the Latin alphabet, but with an extra row of keys between the bottom row and the spacebar. It's certainly easy enough for the thumbs to reach that far down, so it is a possibility that could be explored for a keyboard design with normal staggering of the keys in the rows.

Easy enough is not enough. Spacebar should be right under your thumb, because it's the most used character in Western languages. Japanese don't use space that much, therefore they don't need immediate access to the bar.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: quadibloc on Wed, 09 September 2009, 13:51:09

Quote from: Rajagra;114451

True. His description is accurate, but his choice of photo is poor.

But given that he got permission from Staples to take a photo of a keyboard in their store... evidently, he must be some poor unfortunate who can't afford a computer of his own, so that he could have taken a picture of his own keyboard. So while he did make a mistake, there are doubtless countless sites out there with pictures of the real standard 104-key keyboard, and he should be forgiven.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Wed, 09 September 2009, 13:53:08

I still can't imagine myself typing on a type matrix board. If I own one, I think I'll probably just use the whole thing as a programmable keypad or something.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: JBert on Wed, 09 September 2009, 14:22:08

These non-staggered keyboards are probably better when they would be split, or the two blocks would be set at an angle.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: joniho on Wed, 09 September 2009, 16:32:57

That probably wouldn't make it viable for notebooks, but so far the Type Matrix seems to be the best bare-minimum that can transition easiest to other platforms.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 09 September 2009, 17:31:09

Does anybody know of a program to easily prototype keyboard layouts?

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: joniho on Thu, 10 September 2009, 21:14:16

Quote from: timw4mail;116314

Does anybody know of a program to easily prototype keyboard layouts?

Does AutoHotKey work for remapping?


Also, from reading older posts (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=3840&highlight=typematrix) I know how people here LOVE the TypeMatrix, if you're curious they are coming out with a fully hardware programmable version later this Fall.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 10 September 2009, 21:43:03

Quote from: joniho;116845

Does AutoHotKey work for remapping?

I want to design a layout, not remap keys.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: spremino on Fri, 11 September 2009, 04:27:43

Quote from: timw4mail;116314

Does anybody know of a program to easily prototype keyboard layouts?

On Windows, there is Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator. It allows you to remap character keys only, however. To remap other keys, you'll need either AutoHotKey (a runtime solution) or SharpKeys (a system wide solution).

On Linux, have a good fight with Xmodmap's (a runtime solution) or XKB's (creating a new layout) scripts, if a GUI solution is not still available.

I've done both Windows and Mac. Some day I'll write down a tutorial.

On a Mac, I don't know.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: JBert on Fri, 11 September 2009, 06:06:00

People can't read...

@timw4mail: ask DreymaR, he made some SVG drawings in Inkscape recently.
You could of course also use quadibloc's drawings of keyboard layouts as a template.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: nanu on Fri, 11 September 2009, 06:40:02

This is arguably more effort, but if you're lazy to edit graphics and instead prefer to edit text to create a US/ANSI layout, I wrote some HTML/CSS for that, albeit originally for a Filco tenkeyless: black on white (http://www.deadsite.com/files/keyboard_layout/?bg=white) | white on black (http://www.deadsite.com/files/keyboard_layout/?bg=black).

You can save the webpage locally and edit that, or modify the PHP source (http://www.deadsite.com/files/keyboard_layout/index.phps).

I recommend viewing the results in Safari for assembling an image based on screenshot or screenshots, depending on your screen's space.  Safari's font rendering (on Windows, too) is beefy and subpixel-agnostic.

(http://ttp://www.deadsite.com/files/keyboard_layout/tenkeyless.png)

Well, I got lazy to style the numpad, actually, so those are blank: black on white (http://www.deadsite.com/files/keyboard_layout/?bg=white&numpad=1) | white on black (http://www.deadsite.com/files/keyboard_layout/?bg=black&numpad=1).

After attempting this, I realize it takes some effort to emphasize glyphs and get proportions looking nice.   The people who design beautiful keyboard typography should be praised.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: DreymaR on Fri, 11 September 2009, 07:07:39

Quote from: timw4mail;116314

Does anybody know of a program to easily prototype keyboard layouts?

Portable Keyboard Layout (PKL) by Farkas Máté (Autohotkey-based) for Windows users. In my opinion, hardly anything better. You can use a MSKLC file as your starting point. [If you can't find out what MSKLC is, you don't deserve to be making keyboard layouts, hehe.]

However, anyone interested in making keyboard layouts should really really REALLY peruse the Colemak forums extensively. There's a lot of work already done on the subject, as you'll find.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: DreymaR on Fri, 11 September 2009, 07:13:19

Quote from: quadibloc;115963

I thought I'd give another try to designing the "perfect" layout.

If you're going to move around a bunch of the most rarely used keys to get a "perfect" layout, you aren't allowed to use QWERTY. That would be incredibly weird.

Kinda like how Webwit keeps telling people to fiddle less with their old-fashioned keyboards when there are modern inventions like the DataHand around, but much much worse in my opinion.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Fri, 11 September 2009, 07:31:26

Quote from: DreymaR;116934

If you're going to move around a bunch of the most rarely used keys to get a "perfect" layout, you aren't allowed to use QWERTY. That would be incredibly weird.

Kinda like how Webwit keeps telling people to fiddle less with their old-fashioned keyboards when there are modern inventions like the DataHand around, but much much worse in my opinion.

There are worse things than Qwerty...like alphabetical.

As willing as I am to use alternative programs and OS's...I wouldn't be able to stand the constant need to switch keycap sets, OS keyboard layouts, and the time it actually takes to learn a new keyboard layout.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: spremino on Fri, 11 September 2009, 07:49:28

About the perfect layout... trust me, you'll be wasting your time, unless you follow some ground-breaking design decision: moving control keys (alt, ctrl, enter, tab...) around, using a different keyboard (es: japanese)...

I'm in a hurry to explain further, but indeed you can't beat current layouts on their same grounds.

Cheers.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: Shawn Stanford on Fri, 11 September 2009, 08:37:39

I'd love to try a New Standard if it came in QWERTY layout. The reslanted keys and low real-estate are very appealing...

(http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2006/07/nsk535s-keyboard_large.jpg)

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: JBert on Fri, 11 September 2009, 09:23:10

Quote from: Shawn Stanford;116948

I'd love to try a New Standard if it came in QWERTY layout. The reslanted keys and low real-estate are very appealing...

[img of alphabet matrix keyboard]

That is a keyboard for kids who are learning their alphabet. I wonder what its carpalx score (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/) would be.

When will some hardware manufacturer try colemak for a change?

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 11 September 2009, 09:26:01

Quote from: spremino;116941

About the perfect layout... trust me, you'll be wasting your time, unless you follow some ground-breaking design decision: moving control keys (alt, ctrl, enter, tab...) around, using a different keyboard (es: japanese)...

I'm in a hurry to explain further, but indeed you can't beat current layouts on their same grounds.

Quote from: DreymaR;116934

If you're going to move around a bunch of the most rarely used keys to get a "perfect" layout, you aren't allowed to use QWERTY. That would be incredibly weird.

Well, if you want Dvorak, you just go to Control Panel.

I'm in agreement that the standard IBM 101-key layout is not in need of very much improvement from the perspective of the typist who wants something almost exactly like a standard 44-key (not counting the space bar or any non-printing keys) electric typewriter.

But what my illustration shows is that one could even add the international key and yet achieve an even more exact match to the traditional typewriter arrangement.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: joniho on Fri, 11 September 2009, 12:25:55

On quadibloc's layout:

I personally like how the width of the standard typing area was reduced by one key. I generally dislike layouts where you have to reach further for a non-wide Backspace key, so I like how, although it's standard-size, it's in the same location as the left part of the typical wider Backspace key.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 11 September 2009, 13:29:59

Quote from: DreymaR;116934

If you're going to move around a bunch of the most rarely used keys to get a "perfect" layout, you aren't allowed to use QWERTY. That would be incredibly weird.

There was more I should have said before. Although I'm into subtle rather than radical, I also think that if people seek faster typing, Dvorak and friends (like Colemak) don't go far enough.

Instead, look at Stenotype machines - or their relatives, such as Velotype (now called the Veyboard). Chord all the letters in a syllable at one time, with the letters on the keyboard so ordered that this is possible. It requires true n-key rollover, and existing designs are only phonetic, so dictionaries are needed to get correct spelling - but that does increase speed, enough so that it's used for things like closed captioning.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: spremino on Fri, 11 September 2009, 14:27:43

Quote from: quadibloc;117023

There was more I should have said before. Although I'm into subtle rather than radical, I also think that if people seek faster typing, Dvorak and friends (like Colemak) don't go far enough.

Instead, look at Stenotype machines - or their relatives, such as Velotype (now called the Veyboard). Chord all the letters in a syllable at one time, with the letters on the keyboard so ordered that this is possible. It requires true n-key rollover, and existing designs are only phonetic, so dictionaries are needed to get correct spelling - but that does increase speed, enough so that it's used for things like closed captioning.

Indeed they look interesting. According to Wikipedia: Stenography keyboards are generally more difficult to learn than the Veyboard, but trained operators can go faster, even as high as 300 words per minute. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velotype

Also a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0M6dYWxDuw

Why caring for one letter-at-a-time layouts?

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 11 September 2009, 14:44:01

Quote from: JBert;116958

That is a keyboard for kids who are learning their alphabet. I wonder what its carpalx score (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/) would be.

I think the current order of the alphabet is too arbitrary, and should be re-arranged in QWERTY order...

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: timw4mail on Fri, 11 September 2009, 14:49:43

Quote from: spremino;116941

About the perfect layout... trust me, you'll be wasting your time, unless you follow some ground-breaking design decision: moving control keys (alt, ctrl, enter, tab...) around, using a different keyboard (es: japanese)...

I'm in a hurry to explain further, but indeed you can't beat current layouts on their same grounds.

Cheers.

There's no such thing as a perfect layout. The idea is just to incrementally improve the layout.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: spremino on Fri, 11 September 2009, 15:10:33

Quote from: timw4mail;117056

There's no such thing as a perfect layout. The idea is just to incrementally improve the layout.

What makes you think that each layout is not perfect already in its own way? Dvorak maximizes hand alternation and "flow", Colemak minimizes same finger while remaining compatible with Qwerty, Arensito minimizes same finger while maximizing "rolls", Maltron gives more power to the thumbs, ecc. That's why I said that unless you have different goals, your layout is unlikely to be noticeably better than those available. You should try to think out of the box and come out with a layout which has some benefits not available with others.

Have fun! ;-)

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: Tony on Tue, 11 January 2011, 21:05:45

Quest for perfection makes you tense, and that's not good for your health (joking :-)

It is useless debate about which layout is better, since it is quite subjective.

Qwerty got the most number of followers, since it is de facto standard, and most people feels that they are not typing much enough to invest time to learn a new layout, or they have to use other's computers.

Personally I think that Dvorak, Colemak (http://colemak.com), Workman (http://viralintrospection.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/a-different-philosophy-in-designing-keyboard-layouts/), Arensito (http://www.pvv.org/~hakonhal/main.cgi/keyboard) and other modern layouts are pretty the same. They are 30% improvement from Qwerty, but their difference in ergonomics is too small (1-2%) for us to notice.

I am a Colemak (http://colemak.com) user for 40 days and I am happy with that. Recommended for anyone who types a lot and have RSI or CTS after 1-2 hours of typing.

(http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/9264/colemak2.jpg)

For anyone who don't type much, or have to use a lot of computers each day (IT repairman, perhaps), then you should stick with old-and-tried Qwerty.

Title: Keyboard Layouts
Post by: msiegel on Sun, 16 January 2011, 23:19:56

remember the early 80s when home computers placed Return outside the home row :)

i wonder if there's an advantage?

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14873&stc=1&d=1295241504)