geekhack

geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: Touch_It on Sat, 21 March 2015, 20:48:24

Title: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: Touch_It on Sat, 21 March 2015, 20:48:24: (https://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/11081431_10152881498329965_4643547682266595880_n.jpg?oh=a9e63f055801a3b87b4f3d70f16481d8&oe=55A9C2C3)

Saw this on a local buy sell trade site on FB. It is 10 dollars. Worth getting, or should I pass. I did ask for pics of the connections on the back.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: Halverson on Sat, 21 March 2015, 22:13:43: Ask if it has the needle/if it works.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sat, 21 March 2015, 23:06:09: I'd get it for the 8-track deck. :cool:

As for the turntable, get a model number and figure out if it has a ceramic or magnetic cartridge. Ceramic cartridges are generally viewed as inferior and causing harsher wear to records than magnetic cartridges. I'm not sure if this is a fact or an opinion, so use this information at your own risk (do some additional research ;) ).

In my experience, a lot of these older all-in-ones have cheaper cartridges and aren't very nice. I might pick it up for the novelty (looks like it also has a cassette deck under the cover?), but that's about it. Or if you just want something to spin some wax on and don't really care about much else (I had something similar to this when I was in high school and listened to crappy records I bought at garage sales).
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: noisyturtle on Sat, 21 March 2015, 23:08:04: bottles and cans, just clap your hands
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: GL1TCH3D on Sat, 21 March 2015, 23:17:04: Listing for the same model:

http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/Zenith-Record-Player-Cassette-8-Track-AM-FM-Radio-Stereo-System-Model-IS-4041-/321358136922

Could be worth a bit but really don't get your hopes up
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 22 March 2015, 09:14:40: You should get it for sure. Having all 3 old-school analog devices would be awesome.

True, even if you replaced the cartridge/stylus, you would not want to play valuable records on it, but you could start gathering some $0.10-1.00 LPs, 8-tracks, and cassettes at yard sales or wherever and have some fun.

PS - when I get dirty old records I take them straight to the kitchen sink for a sponge bath in hot soapy water.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 09:24:47: Looks like a whole bunch of work for $10... if your interested about getting into turn tables, pick up a cheapish one and see how you feel about it. It's not really something you can use all the time because of how you have to manage it (changing sides etc) but they are really enjoyable for just listening to music while kinda doing nothing else.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: Touch_It on Sun, 22 March 2015, 09:27:50: Not that interested in turn tables tbh. Thought maybe it was either too good a deal to pass up or I could use it as a cheap receiver to hook some 3 way speakers up to my desktop or iPhone for music
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 22 March 2015, 12:03:18: If you happen upon a Technics SL-1200 MK2 on the other hand....
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 22 March 2015, 12:23:31: This is hipster culture at its best.. Bluray is too clear, let's all watch vhs.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: Halverson on Sun, 22 March 2015, 13:59:21: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 22 March 2015, 12:23:31
This is hipster culture at its best.. Bluray is too clear, let's all watch vhs.

Shhhhh
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: sgwizdak on Sun, 22 March 2015, 14:15:52: So, the two important components for a turntable are the arm and cartridge. What cartridges you can use will depend on the arm, and what turntable you have will dictate the type of arm you can stick on it. The price of both of these units can easily exceed the price of the turntable unit itself.

As for the turntable itself, you want to make sure the platter spins flat, and you will want to check the wear on the belt. Nice features for it to have would be selectable 33 to 45 rpm.

Is it a good value? Hard to say, the Zeniths were basically re-manufactured BSR. Hard to judge overall value without knowing the specific model. But, if the turntable worked, and you put a decent cartridge on the end of it, it would probably be just fine.

While the hipsters like to collect old turntables, I'm a little wary of them until they've undergone some form of setup and needle replacement before put my personal collection of vinyl on them.

Now, that receiver underneath the turntable? That is interesting. Zenith receivers were mostly made in the early 80's, and had a pretty solid reputation, and fully restored/cleaned up/ they look pretty nice. Finding decent integrated receivers for 2-channel setups is becoming trickier, and a lot of people like the vintage 80's stuff. (See audiokarma's site.) That in of itself might be worth the $10.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 14:59:59: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 22 March 2015, 12:23:31
This is hipster culture at its best.. Bluray is too clear, let's all watch vhs.

Assuming your not deaf, there is a huge difference between digital and analogue audio
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 22 March 2015, 15:32:10: Quote from: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 14:59:59
Assuming your not deaf, there is a huge difference between digital and analogue audio

Truth.

Musical instruments, the human voice, the human ear, sound waves themselves - nothing digital about any of those things.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 22 March 2015, 16:39:30: Quote from: fohat.digs on Sun, 22 March 2015, 15:32:10
Quote from: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 14:59:59
Assuming your not deaf, there is a huge difference between digital and analogue audio

Truth.

Musical instruments, the human voice, the human ear, sound waves themselves - nothing digital about any of those things.

Um... ok.. Neurons either Fire or they Don't Fire.. Even if a pure digital existence does not exist, the Human condition IS binary..

So... For compatibility's sake.. Digital is the way to go..

Also if you must... there's Nyquist for the unbelievers
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:23:56: Quote from: fohat.digs on Sun, 22 March 2015, 15:32:10
Quote from: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 14:59:59
Assuming your not deaf, there is a huge difference between digital and analogue audio

Truth.

Musical instruments, the human voice, the human ear, sound waves themselves - nothing digital about any of those things.

They also just sound diffrent. I've listened to Daft Punk's Discovery a million times and the vinyl version just sounds diffrent to the cd version. Not better or worse really just the sound seems to be slightly diffrentaly balanced.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:27:12: Quote from: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:23:56
Quote from: fohat.digs on Sun, 22 March 2015, 15:32:10
Quote from: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 14:59:59
Assuming your not deaf, there is a huge difference between digital and analogue audio

Truth.

Musical instruments, the human voice, the human ear, sound waves themselves - nothing digital about any of those things.

They also just sound diffrent. I've listened to Daft Punk's Discovery a million times and the vinyl version just sounds diffrent to the cd version. Not better or worse really just the sound seems to be slightly diffrentaly balanced.

It's not balance.. you don't get the same dynamic range on vinyl.. Essentially vinyl is "compressed" and not true to source..

It's a "coloration" of sound.. Much like Tube amps.

Can someone LIKE this more/less , absolutely..

But if our goal was to reproduce what we'd hear "Live".. Vinyl is an obsolete medium.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:31:41: Shhh now
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:37:22: Quote from: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:31:41
Shhh now

I'm totally OK with young people being Hipster.. and old people being Nostalgic..

But you can't go around telling people the Technical specification of vinyl surpasses modern mediums, when in actuality, you're comparing the spoon to a Hydraulic Shovel..

(http://a.deviantart.net/avatars/o/n/oniondesuplz.gif?1)
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 22 March 2015, 18:02:26: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:37:22
vinyl surpasses modern mediums, when in actuality, you're comparing the spoon

Not exactly, it is all in the experience
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: Halverson on Sun, 22 March 2015, 20:03:53: Quote from: fohat.digs on Sun, 22 March 2015, 18:02:26
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:37:22
vinyl surpasses modern mediums, when in actuality, you're comparing the spoon

Not exactly, it is all in the experience

This. I love vinyl for creating a more exciting experience than simply fighting over an iPod. I'll barely touch vinyl if I'm alone. Also I enjoy the art medium aspect of vinyl, color variants and album art are wonderful.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 22 March 2015, 20:18:12: If you want the ultimate in audio reproduction - you seek Despacio (http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-11/29/despacio).
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: whentheclouds on Sun, 22 March 2015, 20:27:57: CDs and LPs each have their distinct pros and cons. differences in sound quality, if there are any, come about as a result of having different playback gear, as well as mastering and post processing choices made/gears used by the engineers. not because one medium is better than the other

i don't think the deal in the OP is worth it
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 22 March 2015, 21:00:32: Quote from: whentheclouds on Sun, 22 March 2015, 20:27:57
i don't think the deal in the OP is worth it

Strictly as "starter gear" it is, since it is so cheap, but not for serious enthusiasts.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Sun, 22 March 2015, 21:36:42: Quote from: fohat.digs on Sun, 22 March 2015, 21:00:32
Quote from: whentheclouds on Sun, 22 March 2015, 20:27:57
i don't think the deal in the OP is worth it

Strictly as "starter gear" it is, since it is so cheap, but not for serious enthusiasts.

Agreed. "worth it" is highly relative. I started with a $1 piece of garbage turntable and have advanced from there.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: sgwizdak on Sun, 22 March 2015, 22:19:00: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:37:22
Quote from: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:31:41
Shhh now

I'm totally OK with young people being Hipster.. and old people being Nostalgic..

But you can't go around telling people the Technical specification of vinyl surpasses modern mediums, when in actuality, you're comparing the spoon to a Hydraulic Shovel..

Show Image
(http://a.deviantart.net/avatars/o/n/oniondesuplz.gif?1)

As someone who owns SACDs, CDs, and vinyl -- I mostly agree regarding the medium. The big "warmth" difference that is generally quoted is generally an artifact of using a higher quality amplifier in a vinyl setup than a traditional CD setup.

A big aspect to a recording however is how the recording was done. There are a ton of great recordings from the middle part of the last century that was optimized for vinyl, and the CD conversions really lack something. Now sometimes there are CD conversions of those vinyl releases that sound fantastic. On the other hand, there are ton of vinyl re-releases of things that were originally mastered for CD that are quite bad. And there were a lot of really bad conversions done, particularly for classical music.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: baldgye on Mon, 23 March 2015, 08:04:18: Quote from: fohat.digs on Sun, 22 March 2015, 21:00:32
Quote from: whentheclouds on Sun, 22 March 2015, 20:27:57
i don't think the deal in the OP is worth it

Strictly as "starter gear" it is, since it is so cheap, but not for serious enthusiasts.

idk... as a my first turn table, might be better to go with one that works :P haha
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: smarmar on Sat, 05 November 2016, 13:41:46: The guy at my local record shoppe recommended the Audio Technica AT-LP120 for a good "new" tt.

I'm in the market for another tt, myself. I have an old audio setup with a Technics SA-404 receiver and giant kickass GE speakers from the mid 70s. I also have what I call the "new" setup (with run-of-the-mill gear from the early 90s and 2000s. I'd like to eventually add a nice vintage tt like the Technics SL-1200 to the old setup and upgrade my crappy Sony tt in the new setup.

Sorry if I just barged into your thread and made it all about me, Touch_It ^-^
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 05 November 2016, 13:44:10: Quote from: sgwizdak on Sun, 22 March 2015, 22:19:00
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:37:22
Quote from: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:31:41
Shhh now

I'm totally OK with young people being Hipster.. and old people being Nostalgic..

But you can't go around telling people the Technical specification of vinyl surpasses modern mediums, when in actuality, you're comparing the spoon to a Hydraulic Shovel..

Show Image
(http://a.deviantart.net/avatars/o/n/oniondesuplz.gif?1)

As someone who owns SACDs, CDs, and vinyl -- I mostly agree regarding the medium. The big "warmth" difference that is generally quoted is generally an artifact of using a higher quality amplifier in a vinyl setup than a traditional CD setup.

A big aspect to a recording however is how the recording was done. There are a ton of great recordings from the middle part of the last century that was optimized for vinyl, and the CD conversions really lack something. Now sometimes there are CD conversions of those vinyl releases that sound fantastic. On the other hand, there are ton of vinyl re-releases of things that were originally mastered for CD that are quite bad. And there were a lot of really bad conversions done, particularly for classical music.

Warmth just means BLURRRRRRRRrrrrr..

that's all it is..

it's just coloring the sound, and cutting off highs / lows..

Vinyl collectors don't listen to vinyl, they just collect it like pokemon cards..

They might play it the one time, to check for pops and cracks.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: absyrd on Sat, 05 November 2016, 14:14:01: Quote from: 0100010 on Sun, 22 March 2015, 12:03:18
If you happen upon a Technics SL-1200 MK2 on the other hand....

I sold my 4 techs like 6 years ago. Such regret.

My brother still has a pair, but I've tried 19052379027 times just to get him to loan me them instead of sitting in storage. He is a jerk.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: smarmar on Sat, 05 November 2016, 14:49:37: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 05 November 2016, 13:44:10
Quote from: sgwizdak on Sun, 22 March 2015, 22:19:00
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:37:22
Quote from: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:31:41
Shhh now

I'm totally OK with young people being Hipster.. and old people being Nostalgic..

But you can't go around telling people the Technical specification of vinyl surpasses modern mediums, when in actuality, you're comparing the spoon to a Hydraulic Shovel..

Show Image
(http://a.deviantart.net/avatars/o/n/oniondesuplz.gif?1)

As someone who owns SACDs, CDs, and vinyl -- I mostly agree regarding the medium. The big "warmth" difference that is generally quoted is generally an artifact of using a higher quality amplifier in a vinyl setup than a traditional CD setup.

A big aspect to a recording however is how the recording was done. There are a ton of great recordings from the middle part of the last century that was optimized for vinyl, and the CD conversions really lack something. Now sometimes there are CD conversions of those vinyl releases that sound fantastic. On the other hand, there are ton of vinyl re-releases of things that were originally mastered for CD that are quite bad. And there were a lot of really bad conversions done, particularly for classical music.

Warmth just means BLURRRRRRRRrrrrr..

that's all it is..

it's just coloring the sound, and cutting off highs / lows..

Vinyl collectors don't listen to vinyl, they just collect it like pokemon cards..

They might play it the one time, to check for pops and cracks.

There's a difference between a collector and a hobbyist. A collector will accumulate items for the sake of the task or for completing a collection usually with the intent of not using the items in order to keep their value high. A hobbyist will accumulate items with the intent to use them in order to fulfill a passion.

I personally don't mind the pops and cracks in my vinyl; it's nostalgic for me. What I loathe are the skips! :mad:

STAY CALM AND KEEP THE PASSION
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: Spopepro on Sat, 05 November 2016, 21:48:16: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 05 November 2016, 13:44:10
Quote from: sgwizdak on Sun, 22 March 2015, 22:19:00
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:37:22
Quote from: baldgye on Sun, 22 March 2015, 17:31:41
Shhh now

I'm totally OK with young people being Hipster.. and old people being Nostalgic..

But you can't go around telling people the Technical specification of vinyl surpasses modern mediums, when in actuality, you're comparing the spoon to a Hydraulic Shovel..

Show Image
(http://a.deviantart.net/avatars/o/n/oniondesuplz.gif?1)

As someone who owns SACDs, CDs, and vinyl -- I mostly agree regarding the medium. The big "warmth" difference that is generally quoted is generally an artifact of using a higher quality amplifier in a vinyl setup than a traditional CD setup.

A big aspect to a recording however is how the recording was done. There are a ton of great recordings from the middle part of the last century that was optimized for vinyl, and the CD conversions really lack something. Now sometimes there are CD conversions of those vinyl releases that sound fantastic. On the other hand, there are ton of vinyl re-releases of things that were originally mastered for CD that are quite bad. And there were a lot of really bad conversions done, particularly for classical music.

Warmth just means BLURRRRRRRRrrrrr..

that's all it is..

it's just coloring the sound, and cutting off highs / lows..

Vinyl collectors don't listen to vinyl, they just collect it like pokemon cards..

They might play it the one time, to check for pops and cracks.

I know it's useless to actually respond to TP... but I seem to not be able to help myself.

It's not "blur" and it sure as hell isnt "cutting off highs and lows" (aka compression). What many describe as "warmth" is usually even number harmonic distortion, predominantly second order. The thing is that the even numbers generally sound consonnent and we perceive a "bigger" and "warmer" sound. Tube, and some BJT and J-fet topologies will measure overall high on total harmonic distortion (THD) but will sound good, owing to predominantly even orders being empthasized.

Opamps and mosfets will often empthasize the odd orders, which sounds awful. So the solution is often to use gobs and gobs of negative feedback (since gain is cheap in opamps) to lower the THD to almost nothing. Which is great for specs on a website, but introduces other issues like intermodular distortion, phase issues, and more.

There is strong debate on whether or not the things people claim to hear in vinyl recordings are made up or not. Some people with impeccable eingineering credentials have tried to find if our measurement techniques were matching up with what we perceive as "good sound". An example of where engineers had it wrong in the past was with the timing information on the redbook cd spec. They were sure that the clock didn't need to be very precise because humans couldn't hear distortions in the time domain very precisely. It turns out many humans are sensitive to time distortions around 5 picoseconds when recreating waveforms. Now, very good DACs come with better clocks.

I listen to digital music mostly casually, but if I'm really listening it's always putting a record on. I think I *could* have a digital source path as good, but it would be very expensive.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 05 November 2016, 22:28:21: All lies... ^^^

Did it sound like that when it was played by the band, did it sound like that after the recording.. did it sound like that only after vinyl PLAYBACK..

If there's a break in the chain anywhere, then it's some--sort of distortion..

You can CHOOSE to say, harmonic this, harmonic that, desirable, undesirable, end of the day, if it's FURTHER from the original, it's very-generally MORE WRONG..

If your preference is for a photo that has gone through your glam-filter, FINE, preference, but to SAY that that is NOT distortion or (blurrrrr).. well then you're just trying to justify how Topre is not Rubber Dome...... hahahaha
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: Spopepro on Sun, 06 November 2016, 00:03:54: Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 05 November 2016, 22:28:21
All lies... ^^^

Did it sound like that when it was played by the band, did it sound like that after the recording.. did it sound like that only after vinyl PLAYBACK..

If there's a break in the chain anywhere, then it's some--sort of distortion..

You can CHOOSE to say, harmonic this, harmonic that, desirable, undesirable, end of the day, if it's FURTHER from the original, it's very-generally MORE WRONG..

If your preference is for a photo that has gone through your glam-filter, FINE, preference, but to SAY that that is NOT distortion or (blurrrrr).. well then you're just trying to justify how Topre is not Rubber Dome...... hahahaha

Yes, as every engineer knows, everything is a trade off. No perfect device exists and good engineering is about choices--which problems to be ok with, which to mitigate, and which to go completely around.

And it's funny you mention photos. From the old days it was said that film has about 1/100 of the dynamic range of human sight, and paper has about 1/10 of that of film. That's why they would use graded papers, or now a days contrast filters, when printing. Along with dodging, burning, split processing, split developing... all before people could do it with an undo available in Photoshop. *nothing* except for the real thing, live, and in person is the real thing. Our choices as artists is in what to express in our models.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 06 November 2016, 04:29:14: Quote from: Spopepro on Sun, 06 November 2016, 00:03:54
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 05 November 2016, 22:28:21
All lies... ^^^

Did it sound like that when it was played by the band, did it sound like that after the recording.. did it sound like that only after vinyl PLAYBACK..

If there's a break in the chain anywhere, then it's some--sort of distortion..

You can CHOOSE to say, harmonic this, harmonic that, desirable, undesirable, end of the day, if it's FURTHER from the original, it's very-generally MORE WRONG..

If your preference is for a photo that has gone through your glam-filter, FINE, preference, but to SAY that that is NOT distortion or (blurrrrr).. well then you're just trying to justify how Topre is not Rubber Dome...... hahahaha

Yes, as every engineer knows, everything is a trade off. No perfect device exists and good engineering is about choices--which problems to be ok with, which to mitigate, and which to go completely around.

And it's funny you mention photos. From the old days it was said that film has about 1/100 of the dynamic range of human sight, and paper has about 1/10 of that of film. That's why they would use graded papers, or now a days contrast filters, when printing. Along with dodging, burning, split processing, split developing... all before people could do it with an undo available in Photoshop. *nothing* except for the real thing, live, and in person is the real thing. Our choices as artists is in what to express in our models.

It's perfectly good, that you like Vinyl, I'm even willing to believe that YOU BELIEVE that they're somehow better to listen to..

--- despite very straightforward reasoning of having Paid for it... --- // shifty-eye

But warm is blurry.. the only conflict here has been the fact that the word, WARM is somehow positive, despite describing approximately the same deviation as Blurry, yet Blurry is negatively perceived..
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 06 November 2016, 06:52:05: Quote from: Spopepro on Sun, 06 November 2016, 00:03:54

everything is a trade off.

No perfect device exists and good engineering is about choices--which problems to be ok with, which to mitigate, and which to go completely around.

I think that the real crux is familiarity and conditioning.

My great intense music-listening and music-learning years were 1965-1985 using vinyl and mid-to-upper-mid-grade consumer stereo gear.

So, even today, what sounds "best" to me is just that. Warm and fuzzy. I have several pieces of gear from that era, set up in 3 different rooms, although I do use a couple of late-1980s Technics turntables and Audio-Technica cartridges that are only a couple of years old.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: Spopepro on Sun, 06 November 2016, 13:16:04: Possibly I'm just confused about the meaning of words being used here. My home setup could sometimes be called "warm" but no one would ever call it "fuzzy" or "blurry". I use a anvil turntables deck with a ZYX mc cart, through a step up transformer, a musical fidelity phono preamp, a homemade preamp based on the white cathode follower topology (tubes), and a homebilt single ended triode amp. These feed to a homemade set of full range speakers (quadratic taper mass loaded back horns). I haven't measured it, but using computer models I'm probably around 10% total harmonic distortion. This would be totally unacceptable for modern transistor based gear. It can be light on bass, as the -3db point is around 50Hz, but for most music it's ok. For reference the open E on a string bass is 41Hz. The lowest note of an orchestra is around 28Hz, the low Bb of the contrabassoon. I have a subwoofer (tapped horn topology) that goes down to 28Hz, but switching it on requires turning on the crossover and most music sounds better without it. As an aside, this is probably because for very low notes we hear the second harmonic predominantly, not the fundamental (I.e. an open E will sound most at 82Hz, not at the fundamental tone of 41Hz). In any case, it sounds really, really good. Sometimes warm, but precise and clear, never fuzzy or blurry.

I designed everything to work together, and it's intended to be as simple as possible. There are no crossovers, I'm using tubes to make voltage (which they are still unmatched as a device to make lots of clean voltage gain) and then transformers to make sufficient current. It makes about 8W of power, but I have efficient speakers and virtually no losses. It's not the best one could possibly do, but it's good, and I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 06 November 2016, 17:16:08: Quote from: Spopepro on Sun, 06 November 2016, 13:16:04

I use a anvil turntables deck with a ZYX mc cart, through a step up transformer, a musical fidelity phono preamp, a homemade preamp based on the white cathode follower topology (tubes), and a homebilt single ended triode amp. These feed to a homemade set of full range speakers (quadratic taper mass loaded back horns).

I don't even dare to dream about a system like that. Maybe if I won the lottery ....

My "best" warm and fuzzy system is (all late-1980s) Proton amp/preamp (NAD clone) driving moderate JBL monitors with a 15" dual-coil sub-woofer (in a hefty cabinet that I built) and my 2nd warm and fuzzy system is (late-1970s) Sansui amp driving Bose 901speakers. Both paired with late-1980s direct drive Technics turntables and AT cartridges less than 5 years old.

I would refer to these as "mid-high consumer-grade setups" from the Carter-Reagan era.

Since I am an old man and my hearing is seriously degraded, my remaining wish list is a nice tube preamp (and maybe amp) on the order of Bottlehead gear and an upgraded turntable.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: Spopepro on Sun, 06 November 2016, 17:53:03: That's all solid stuff. It's pretty much right at the inflection point of the price-vs-performance curve. The anvil turntable and ZYX cart is noticeably better than the Rega P3 and Shure cart that it replaced, but it is in no way 10 times better, even though it's 10x the price.

If you want to build a tube amp project, I'd *strongly* recommend the Simple Single Ended (SSE) kit from Tubelab.com. George is a DIY enthusiast, and has produced a PCB and instructions that are dead easy to make a great single ended triode amp for cheap... depending on finding reasonably priced transformers. Can be done with patience. The SSE is the amp that I run, and I did it back when DIY was a necessity due to funds and not just for entertainment. I made a few modifications to his basic plan:
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/em818m7lgl90x26/2016-11-06%2015.22.02.jpg?dl=0)

All capacitors are film, with no electrolytic caps anywhere in the amp (including the power supply--look for AC motor start caps in surplus). I used surplus soviet 1000v teflon caps elsewhere. I put a rheostat in line with a 300ohm resistor for the cathode bias. The old voltmeter measures across this known resistance so I can compute the current and run different tubes. This amp will run anything from a 6L6 to a KT90. I put a switch in place to swap from triode to ultra-linear topology and a switch for cathode feedback (both provided for on the PCB). This particular power transformer has two power taps as well, one at 360v and one at 480v. The 480v ended up causing me an issue... It's actually around 500v because of my house mains being high and then that's RMS, so rectified I'm getting around 700V DC on the plates. I measured this and then realized that most hookup wire insulation is only rated to 600v... had to pull it all out and replace with 1000v mil-spec PTFE stuff. Everything is mounted to the top plate, which was made by front panel express, and the box was left over 3/4" maple ply from building my speakers.

Of course, you wouldn't have to add so many switches, or design around swapping tubes so often. You could also use smaller, and much less expensive transformers. George has a page explaining options on his site. If you're using a subwoofer, and aren't passing or amplifying low frequencies at high power you don't need so much metal to stave off core saturation.

Personally I'd avoid a pre-amp for tube project unless you've done a bunch. Small signals + heater circuitry = endless hum and buzz chasing. It's not fun unless you happen to nail it on the first go.
Title: Re: Who knows about turntables?
Post by: xtrafrood on Mon, 07 November 2016, 23:07:38: I like the sound the needle produces as it softly lands in the groove, and I like direct drive--that's about all I know.