no. the hhkb layout is the one true layout. welcome to the celebrationThanks clacktalk!
You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
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- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!
coding I guess.You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
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- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!
What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?
Ah, see I code a lot, but I try to get everything to act like VIM so I don't have to move my hands as much. Pretty much everything in VIM can be handled by a 60% without touching the fn layer (since it was pretty much designed for a 60% interface).coding I guess.You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
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- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!
What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?
I had the same problem with the pokerII, the Fn and WASD position isn't that great, and it was annoying.
Now with a custom where i put it in a better position and 60% layout just feel so much better.
I'm moving toward a 75% build though, to test if it fits me better.
You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
...
- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!
What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?
To me, going 60% exclusively is like saying I'm only going to eat strawberry ice cream from now on. Why would I want to limit my ice cream options when there is so much out there?
Right now at work, I'm typing on a Leeku Dolch PAC which is a custom 1800 in a Dolch Pac Case. So 1800 layout. At home I'm using a 60% Model F aka 6019284 aka Kishsaver. But I was using my SSK and KMAC for weeks beforehand. Variety is fun :).
Yeah I do use arrow keys a lot. Definitely not 1/4 of my keypresses though, but everyone works differently. Biggest thing is probably that I am very comfortable with the layout on the Poker II. The Quickfire TK though drives me nuts having to switch numlock on and off to get to the arrows.You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
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- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!
What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?
I code, except that in the period the stats took place I wasn't coding that much. Even when you just answer emails, read, or work on graphics, you use the arrows all the time (or you move your hand to reach the mouse, which is such a waste of time and energy).
I understand the stats would look different for other people, but how much different?
I read that you are using VIM, so you can go away with it somehow, but if you use enough different programs daily you will have to use the arrows. You could remap everything to use HJKL, but it's not always possible, and what a pain. Most people are not going to do it.
I would recommend to someone would is considering the switch to a 60% board to install a keyboard stats program and to look at the stats after one month. The decision is easier then. I have been stupid for not doing it myself a long time ago.
Yeah I do use arrow keys a lot. Definitely not 1/4 of my keypresses though, but everyone works differently. Biggest thing is probably that I am very comfortable with the layout on the Poker II. The Quickfire TK though drives me nuts having to switch numlock on and off to get to the arrows.You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
...
- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!
What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?
I code, except that in the period the stats took place I wasn't coding that much. Even when you just answer emails, read, or work on graphics, you use the arrows all the time (or you move your hand to reach the mouse, which is such a waste of time and energy).
I understand the stats would look different for other people, but how much different?
I read that you are using VIM, so you can go away with it somehow, but if you use enough different programs daily you will have to use the arrows. You could remap everything to use HJKL, but it's not always possible, and what a pain. Most people are not going to do it.
I would recommend to someone would is considering the switch to a 60% board to install a keyboard stats program and to look at the stats after one month. The decision is easier then. I have been stupid for not doing it myself a long time ago.
After months and months of use, my opinion is that the 60% form factor (Poker, HHKB, ...) may be suitable for some, but it cannot be recommended in general.
The deal breaker is the lack of arrows.
After months and months of use, my opinion is that the 60% form factor (Poker, HHKB, ...) may be suitable for some, but it cannot be recommended in general.
The deal breaker is the lack of arrows.
Pure Pro.
I know it does not get much love around here because of the non-standard layout (and I agree it is not perfect) but I have been using one for nearly a year and I never felt I needed something bigger.
But I somewhat agree with you — if you're going for something less "standard" than a Poker, why not go the 65% route. Standard keycap sizes (well, almost), dedicated arrow keys and not much bigger than a true 60%.
What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?
I've banged this drum before, and I'll bang it again. Arrow clusters are just as bad as excessive mouse use. You're still having to move your right hand way off the home position and spend a split second to locate the arrows. Given their importance and usage rates they should be immediately available and easy to get to.
I have difficulty using dedicated arrow keys after getting used to the HHKB arrow cluster...Just using my RF now it is kind of weird, but I like dedicated arrow keys more, just more practical, and I also got used to Page Up and Page down, so I am starting to feel like that a 65 or 75% is more for me, because I like the compactness.
It's so much more work moving my hand off home row to use dedicated arrows than to use the fn+ [;'/ cluster on the HHKB.
I have difficulty using dedicated arrow keys after getting used to the HHKB arrow cluster...Just using my RF now it is kind of weird, but I like dedicated arrow keys more, just more practical, and I also got used to Page Up and Page down, so I am starting to feel like that a 65 or 75% is more for me, because I like the compactness.
It's so much more work moving my hand off home row to use dedicated arrows than to use the fn+ [;'/ cluster on the HHKB.
Yeah, its my main board until the cable for my Dolch board comes, and then I will see how it goes. I will probably use the dolch for gaming, and when I a cherry experience, or when I want to look at a pretty board.I have difficulty using dedicated arrow keys after getting used to the HHKB arrow cluster...Just using my RF now it is kind of weird, but I like dedicated arrow keys more, just more practical, and I also got used to Page Up and Page down, so I am starting to feel like that a 65 or 75% is more for me, because I like the compactness.
It's so much more work moving my hand off home row to use dedicated arrows than to use the fn+ [;'/ cluster on the HHKB.
Using my RF right now - I make sure to use it at least once a week to justify spending so much money on it (something like 450 dollars). The dedicated arrows feel so unnatural though... :-X
I have two Pure Pro.
Originally I thought it was it. However it is nonstandard enough that it is annoying. For example, the right Shift is a joke, and I use the right Shift enough often that it bothers me a lot. But there are other issues.
I realized the layout was a burden when I switched back to using a TKL for a while. The TKL felt so easier to use, that I knew the Pure Pro had to go.
I've banged this drum before, and I'll bang it again. Arrow clusters are just as bad as excessive mouse use. You're still having to move your right hand way off the home position and spend a split second to locate the arrows. Given their importance and usage rates they should be immediately available and easy to get to.
Whenever I'm on any computer I'm using Karabiner or autohotkey to remap the key immediately right of the space bar + hjkl for arrow keys. I will never, ever go back to an arrow cluster. I simply don't see how it could get easier in terms of access. I have to move my thumb about 1.5cm to get to the modifier and my fingers are already on jkl;
Kill the arrow cluster people! You need dedicated arrow keys as much as you need a dedicated caps lock.
According with the OP explanation, this is another HHKB thread, disguised as a 60%-keyboard's-preference one.
I use 60% , HHKB at work where I do all the typing , NerD60 (2 of them) and SPRiT 60%. All the boards have the same Fn layer mapping HHKB style. I love 60% , compact, don't take a lot of space, portable.
I have also a SSK and I use it when I feel lazy or tired, moment when I don't feel like I want to remember the Fn layer mapping ( moments where the muscle memory it taking a break).
I want a second TKL exactly for such moments, I think the Orion will be a good choice.
I don't game at all so I don't care about F1-xx row and numpad or whatever gamers are looking for. I type and code and 60% is perfect :) I use Linux and UNIX where navigation can be done in so many other ways unlike Windows.
What I do really need is a programmable board, except for HHKB and IBM stuff I would never again buy a board that is not programmable in a true way ( not that Poker II Pn thing)
I use 60% , HHKB at work where I do all the typing , NerD60 (2 of them) and SPRiT 60%. All the boards have the same Fn layer mapping HHKB style. I love 60% , compact, don't take a lot of space, portable.
I have also a SSK and I use it when I feel lazy or tired, moment when I don't feel like I want to remember the Fn layer mapping ( moments where the muscle memory it taking a break).
I want a second TKL exactly for such moments, I think the Orion will be a good choice.
I don't game at all so I don't care about F1-xx row and numpad or whatever gamers are looking for. I type and code and 60% is perfect :) I use Linux and UNIX where navigation can be done in so many other ways unlike Windows.
What I do really need is a programmable board, except for HHKB and IBM stuff I would never again buy a board that is not programmable in a true way ( not that Poker II Pn thing)
People are more and more used to compact keyboards due to laptops being their main computers.
People are more and more used to compact keyboards due to laptops being their main computers.
True. Apple even ships a bluetooth 60% keyboard (albeit one with tiny F keys and arrow keys) as a standard desktop accessory.
Since I play games at home, a TKL is a must for me. I tried gaming on a HHKB, but I need the function layer.
So you really need a programmable board? Nerd60 is programmable; so, what do you mean?:) I know, that's why I have 2 NerD60 and a 3rd one is on the way :D What I mean is that what it's important for me in a board is to be programmable. I could never go back to a stock one like Poker.
But they offer a full-size wired option at no additional cost, which is the only reason they can get away with that.
But they offer a full-size wired option at no additional cost, which is the only reason they can get away with that.
And when I was working at a call center doing customer service and occasionally sales on Apple products, most iMacs I sold they went with the wired full-size. We used the wired full-size ourselves because we needed to do data entry, including credit card numbers, and it was much more efficient, also your keyboard didn't die during a call. :P
A lot of the complaint calls I got were people who couldn't get their wireless keyboard to pair, and a few who complained about the lack of keys. Quite a few complaints were heard that the wireless was wanted but they wanted it full-sized. They usually went to the full-size wired. Sometimes they'd buy a separate third-party keyboard to get what they really wanted. (So like us but not mechs. :P)
I may have a problem...How many of those do you actually use :eek:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/dK3X0Kj.jpg)
I just built a few of them. But I plan to rotate them all to use.I may have a problem...How many of those do you actually use :eek:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/dK3X0Kj.jpg)
I just built a few of them. But I plan to rotate them all to use.I may have a problem...How many of those do you actually use :oShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/dK3X0Kj.jpg)
I don't get the whole wireless keyboard thing. Is it really that big a deal to have a wire coming out of the back? I have personally spent way more of my life inconvenienced by dead/dying keyboard batteries than I have spent inconvenienced by a wire.
I tried the HHKB layout for a week at work (coding), and for the most part it was very comfortable. The new positions of the navigation keys were brilliant. However the one thing I didn't like with that was when I needed to ctrl and/or shift in combination with arrow keys. If I wanted to quickly select the last three word blocks I would need to hold ctrl + shift + fn, then press the left arrow key 3 times. Setting up that manoeuvre was taking a bit of conscious thought each time. I have no doubt that I would get used it in the long run though.
I think I would rather have dedicated arrow keys in the typical 75% position for just this reason. I know it requires you hand to move, but not very far.
I tried the HHKB layout for a week at work (coding), and for the most part it was very comfortable. The new positions of the navigation keys were brilliant. However the one thing I didn't like with that was when I needed to ctrl and/or shift in combination with arrow keys. If I wanted to quickly select the last three word blocks I would need to hold ctrl + shift + fn, then press the left arrow key 3 times. Setting up that manoeuvre was taking a bit of conscious thought each time. I have no doubt that I would get used it in the long run though.
I think I would rather have dedicated arrow keys in the typical 75% position for just this reason. I know it requires you hand to move, but not very far.
I do these kind of chords all the time, which also explains why a 60% with no arrows is a burden for me.
It's like explaining to a pianist that you have built a great keyboard (musical keyboard) that is also very portable. And the price is incredible. There's just one thing: the black keys are missing. But hey, no problem: to play a black key, you just press the Fn key and the nearest white key.
Or like one of those small keyboards, where you need to flick a switch to select an octave (if that is the right word, Rowdy is not very musical). You can play 4 octaves or something, but only one at a time. Nevertheless people do still manage to play things on them.
Yeah removing the black keys would be more akin to removing the vowels. You use blacks and whites at the same time, in tandem.Or like one of those small keyboards, where you need to flick a switch to select an octave (if that is the right word, Rowdy is not very musical). You can play 4 octaves or something, but only one at a time. Nevertheless people do still manage to play things on them.
Exactly. Because people (musicians/producers) realized that there was no point in using a full 88-key weighted keyboard as a compositional tool if you're not a trained pianist — and even then, this kind of MIDI controller is much more practical when working in front of the computer than a full keybed (but nothing prevents you from having both in the room/studio). Just like there is no point in having a 104-key keyboard if you barely use the numpad for instance. Or dedicated arrow keys when you can do with key combinations (I know I would have a hard time adapting to them, but I understand why some prefer them).
(I think your analogy works better than the missing black keys btw)
Or like one of those small keyboards, where you need to flick a switch to select an octave (if that is the right word, Rowdy is not very musical). You can play 4 octaves or something, but only one at a time. Nevertheless people do still manage to play things on them.
Exactly. Because people (musicians/producers) realized that there was no point in using a full 88-key weighted keyboard as a compositional tool if you're not a trained pianist — and even then, this kind of MIDI controller is much more practical when working in front of the computer than a full keybed (but nothing prevents you from having both in the room/studio). Just like there is no point in having a 104-key keyboard if you barely use the numpad for instance. Or dedicated arrow keys when you can do with key combinations (I know I would have a hard time adapting to them, but I understand why some prefer them).
(I think your analogy works better than the missing black keys btw)
The small MIDI keyboards are seldom used for real performances. They are mainly used for data entry, because ultimately when you use a virtual studio the song is not played by you but by the computer. You use the keyboard to try/enter chords, enter melodic phrases, create percussion loops... all things that do not require more than 2 octaves and a half, generally, even if your composition covers 7 octaves.
I would compare these small MIDI keyboard to the cheap rubber dome computer keyboards people use while browsing Facebook. Or to the glass keyboards on modern phones and tablets. Yes, you get the job done...
The small MIDI keyboards are seldom used for real performances. They are mainly used for data entry, because ultimately when you use a virtual studio the song is not played by you but by the computer. You use the keyboard to try/enter chords, enter melodic phrases, create percussion loops... all things that do not require more than 2 octaves and a half, generally, even if your composition covers 7 octaves.
I would compare these small MIDI keyboard to the cheap rubber dome computer keyboards people use while browsing Facebook. Or to the glass keyboards on modern phones and tablets. Yes, you get the job done...
No pianist use them live, but a lot of acts do (often along with other controllers). And some of them have quality keybeds, so I'm not sure the rubber-dome keyboard comparison stands (of course there are a lot of cheap & crappy controlers too, but not all of them are). In the end it comes down to what each user needs. And I'm not even sure what we are debating about since I'm in the same boat as you ;D (I need theeggsarrow keys too)
For me it is less about the layout and more about the aesthetics and switches of the boards themselves. I can love any layout....I do not discriminate....especially against full-sizes. The big girls need love too in this age of "smaller is better...." What I love about my P2 though is the arrow keys on the WASD Fn layer. Some people hate that for some reason, but I really love it. I miss it when I switch to a TKL.
number pad enter (I hit it with my mouse thumb) quite a lot for home and work.
So in the end I opt in for functionality over look.
And when I was working at a call center doing customer service and occasionally sales on Apple products, most iMacs I sold they went with the wired full-size. We used the wired full-size ourselves because we needed to do data entry, including credit card numbers, and it was much more efficient, also your keyboard didn't die during a call. :P
60% + numpad is a layout I want to try for a while now, Numpad would make so much more sense on the left.And when I was working at a call center doing customer service and occasionally sales on Apple products, most iMacs I sold they went with the wired full-size. We used the wired full-size ourselves because we needed to do data entry, including credit card numbers, and it was much more efficient, also your keyboard didn't die during a call. :P
Oh yeah, the minute you need to do data entry, the idea of using a TKL/60% board goes out the window.
I've been wanting to get myself an ortholinear keyboard for a while now (hanging out for the Planck/Atmoic PCBs), and I've been leaning heavily towards the Atomic for these reasons. It's got the dedicated arrows keys lodged right up next to the right shift and a column of navigation keys like a typical 75% layout, but it also has great potential to support a numpad on a function layer, because of how we are used to the the numpad having straight columns anyway.I am currently using Filco Minila and a short space Atomic as my main keyboards. Do still like to have the dedicated arrows. I wish there were more PCBs/plates which allow tiny spacebars, though who knows, maybe the novelty will wear off eventually. For now, it seems great having quick access to Fn layer with my thumb, and thus being able to use the arrows and home/end without moving my hands from the touch typing position.
I hope the ortholinearity is as great as I imagine it to be.
And when I was working at a call center doing customer service and occasionally sales on Apple products, most iMacs I sold they went with the wired full-size. We used the wired full-size ourselves because we needed to do data entry, including credit card numbers, and it was much more efficient, also your keyboard didn't die during a call. :P
Oh yeah, the minute you need to do data entry, the idea of using a TKL/60% board goes out the window.
And when I was working at a call center doing customer service and occasionally sales on Apple products, most iMacs I sold they went with the wired full-size. We used the wired full-size ourselves because we needed to do data entry, including credit card numbers, and it was much more efficient, also your keyboard didn't die during a call. :P
Oh yeah, the minute you need to do data entry, the idea of using a TKL/60% board goes out the window.
I don't know why people feel this way really. If you have a 60% and use a stand alone number pad, how would this slow you down?
..I wish there were more PCBs/plates which allow tiny spacebars, though who knows, maybe the novelty will wear off eventually..
Ortholinearity was a lot easier to adjust to than I thought it would be - that being said for now there is still a bit of adjustment when I go back and forth between standard and ortholinear (mostly for the number row).
lol I went 60% and went back. To be honest I probably spent close to $300 to mod my Poker II.
I got Tex aluminum case, white backlit keycaps, braided cable, modded LED light myself. But now it's one of my least used keyboard (to be fair I did put about half a year usage on it).
In the end it's just too tedious to use.
I realize I actually use arrow key, 6 pack cluster, number pad, and number pad enter (I hit it with my mouse thumb) quite a lot for home and work.
Also I've developed muscle memory for full size keyboard so it's just a lot easier to type on standard layout (which rules out irregular layouts like HHKB).
So in the end I opt in for functionality over look.
:P
I visualized this:I just built a few of them. But I plan to rotate them all to use.I may have a problem...How many of those do you actually use :eek:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/dK3X0Kj.jpg)
This thread was quite helpful for me. There is quite a bit of hype on arrow keys in the home-row and minimal keyboards on this forum, and it is good to hear opposite experiences. Now I decided that I should really put arrow keys in the keyboard I plan to make. Nothing stops me of doing an arrow layer latter and then repurposing the keys as F-keys or something else if I decide I don't need them anymore. Putting 4 arrow keys in a keyboard costs little, even in terms of space.I visualized this:I just built a few of them. But I plan to rotate them all to use.I may have a problem...How many of those do you actually use :eek:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/dK3X0Kj.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/uywnUVV.gif)
I have an HHKB and a couple RF 87Us. Switching back and forth isn't a problem. And if I weren't a Windows coder, the HHKB would meet all of my needs. However, navigating code is just easier on a TKL.
It's not just navigation. It's highlighting sections of code to copy or paste. So Control + Shift and arrow keys. It's just easier with dedicated arrow keys.
I have an HHKB and a couple RF 87Us. Switching back and forth isn't a problem. And if I weren't a Windows coder, the HHKB would meet all of my needs. However, navigating code is just easier on a TKL.
It's not just navigation. It's highlighting sections of code to copy or paste. So Control + Shift and arrow keys. It's just easier with dedicated arrow keys.
I'm a Windows coder as well and I can definitely relate. I've been trying different 60% layouts to still code efficiently. The best I've found so far is the split right shift / fn keys and using the hhkb arrow keys. I moved home / end a little closer as well. (l and .) It's been ok but I haven't been able to completely break using a TKL yet. I really hope I can... I love the way 60% looks and it's definitely more practical... less desk space taken up and closer to where your hands rest... not to mention less travel to and from the mouse.
Any other Windows coders here who use 60% care to chime in?
I use 60% exclusively... with only exception for some dumb games that are impossible to remap that have essential keys mapped to a function keys, or require both WASD and arrows at the same time which is impossible on my 60%. I broke down and got a TKL to use on such occasion, as I hate having to rearrange half the desk and reboot the PC to attach the PS/2 G80.
Yeah I do use arrow keys a lot. Definitely not 1/4 of my keypresses though, but everyone works differently. Biggest thing is probably that I am very comfortable with the layout on the Poker II. The Quickfire TK though drives me nuts having to switch numlock on and off to get to the arrows.You end up spending all your time pressing on the Fn key.
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- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!
What are you doing that you are using arrow keys so much?
I code, except that in the period the stats took place I wasn't coding that much. Even when you just answer emails, read, or work on graphics, you use the arrows all the time (or you move your hand to reach the mouse, which is such a waste of time and energy).
I understand the stats would look different for other people, but how much different?
I read that you are using VIM, so you can go away with it somehow, but if you use enough different programs daily you will have to use the arrows. You could remap everything to use HJKL, but it's not always possible, and what a pain. Most people are not going to do it.
I would recommend to someone would is considering the switch to a 60% board to install a keyboard stats program and to look at the stats after one month. The decision is easier then. I have been stupid for not doing it myself a long time ago.
I, too, thought that I could not possibly use the arrows that often. :)
Then I looked at the stats and... WTF!?
Why don't you guys use arrow lock? Or does your 60 not have that?
It locks the arrows to be on. Without holding Fn, hence "Arrow lock"Why don't you guys use arrow lock? Or does your 60 not have that?
What is arrow lock?
Why don't you guys use arrow lock? Or does your 60 not have that?
- I use space 10.9% of the time (it's the most used single key)
- I use "E" (the most used letter in many languages) 5.8% of the time
- I use an arrow 22.4% of the time!!!
My Poker X's have arrow lock: Fn+space locks it on and the right side bottom 3 keys and shift become arrows. Verrrrry handy for aforementioned photo review and also spreadsheets.
So do the other Poker versions not have this? For shame!