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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Stabilized on Fri, 27 March 2015, 04:48:49

Title: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: Stabilized on Fri, 27 March 2015, 04:48:49: Not sure where to post this, mods feel free to move this if it's in the wrong section.
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with keycaps catching the upper housing on a MX-style switch (be it Gateron, Cherry, etc).
The reason I ask is because I have just finished my first Gateron build and about 50% or more of the keys are doing this; it's driving me crazy!

The problem is when you push down on the keycap just slightly to the bottom of the key cap the stem of the keycap gets caught on the switch housing; you can imagine that on a linear board this is really annoying.
I have never had this problem before, and was wondering if anyone has come across this before and would know how to fix this?
I have tried different switch housings, and a number of different keycaps and the problem is still there.

Video showing the problem:
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: rowdy on Fri, 27 March 2015, 05:22:56: I haven't heard if keycap stems hitting the switches before.

Maybe this is something specific to Gaterons?

Gateron switches are starting to show up in many places now - maybe someone else has found something similar to this.

It might help if you could precisely identify which keycaps you are using. Stems are not all exactly the same.
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: Stabilized on Fri, 27 March 2015, 05:32:59: Hey, thanks for replying.

I am using vintage Cherry DS (caps shown in the video), and I have tried with another set of Cherry DS and GMK caps; all give me the same problem.

The row doesn't seem to matter either, and FWIW it's a PCB mount keyboard.

I will be able to try out some more variables in a while (need to locate some Cherry switches for testing), but I have replaced the switch tops on a number of keys with the last of my spares, and it doesn't seem to make any difference. I also did look at the molding to see if there was any residual plastic, but there isn't anything obvious (just checking with the naked eye).
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: rowdy on Fri, 27 March 2015, 05:38:24: I can't say I've had keycaps quite like that on my keyboards, but I have had all sorts of keycaps (GMK, SP (DSA, SA and DCS), EK cheap set, Tai Hao and maybe one or two more, including various OEM sets, and non have had that problem at all!

All with original Cherry switches though, which makes me suspect the Gateron switches.
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: Stabilized on Fri, 27 March 2015, 05:40:58: That was my first reaction, but I don't want to point fingers until I isolate the problem for sure. I'll do some more testing and see for sure, but I also have never had this problem with genuine Cherry switches.
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: crazystu on Fri, 27 March 2015, 05:50:57: Interestingly I have a Cherry MX Red switch with exactly this problem. Fortunately it is only on my switch tester!
However, I don't think it's the key-cap. If you compare a switch that works perfectly, there is very little wiggle of the switch stem in the working switch, where as if you wiggle the problematic switch there is a noticeable (but small) click in the stem where it gets stuck.
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: hwood34 on Fri, 27 March 2015, 08:21:00: Quote from: rowdy on Fri, 27 March 2015, 05:38:24
I can't say I've had keycaps quite like that on my keyboards, but I have had all sorts of keycaps (GMK, SP (DSA, SA and DCS), EK cheap set, Tai Hao and maybe one or two more, including various OEM sets, and non have had that problem at all!

All with original Cherry switches though, which makes me suspect the Gateron switches.
I haven't heard any problems so far like this with Gaterons, and I didn't notice anything like it, but I'll double check when I get home
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: hwood34 on Fri, 27 March 2015, 08:24:13: What different housings did you try? All gateron or MX as well?
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: Stabilized on Fri, 27 March 2015, 09:59:23: I managed to get my hands on a genuine Cherry switch top and it does seem to be the Gateron switch tops that are causing the problem.
Just inspecting them with the naked eye the Cherry ones have a little notch in the bottom of the switch top while the gaterons don't.
I don't have my camera with me just now so I have used my limited paint skills to demonstrate.

Cherry:
(http://i.imgur.com/tyPzxhO.jpg)

Gateron:
(http://i.imgur.com/LjbbUmj.jpg)

Would be interested to see if this is just my batch (I bought mine from Taobao), and also why no-one else has reported something like this.
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: rpeterclark on Fri, 27 March 2015, 16:17:56: I ran into a similar problem with Gateron clear switch tops when using an artisan keycap:

The switch tops also caused clearance issues with the LEDs. I ended up sanding the LEDs to fix the issue.
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: pichu23 on Fri, 27 March 2015, 16:46:19: Does this happen only to the clear switch housing?
ie. the milky ones which are on the gateron switches are fine then ?
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: rpeterclark on Fri, 27 March 2015, 17:14:08: OP's video shows red Gateron switches. My issue was with the clear Gateron switch tops. I haven't tried Gateron switches yet.
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: pichu23 on Fri, 27 March 2015, 17:25:00: Quote from: rpeterclark on Fri, 27 March 2015, 17:14:08
OP's video shows red Gateron switches. My issue was with the clear Gateron switch tops. I haven't tried Gateron switches yet.

alright, cause I have like a clear switch with the original "milky" housing.
I've just put a cap over it and it seems fine. Maybe it's different for switches with stabs. iono lol.
hopefully it's not a serious issue. :-X
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: FoC_Tow on Fri, 27 March 2015, 19:03:50: Quote from: Stabilized on Fri, 27 March 2015, 09:59:23
I managed to get my hands on a genuine Cherry switch top and it does seem to be the Gateron switch tops that are causing the problem.
Just inspecting them with the naked eye the Cherry ones have a little notch in the bottom of the switch top while the gaterons don't.
I don't have my camera with me just now so I have used my limited paint skills to demonstrate.

Cherry:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/tyPzxhO.jpg)

Gateron:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/LjbbUmj.jpg)

Would be interested to see if this is just my batch (I bought mine from Taobao), and also why no-one else has reported something like this.

I just checked some pics from Hwood's Gateron Teardown (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68113.0) and it does look like the regular 'milky' Gateron switch tops look pretty much the same regarding the notch, so no notch just like the clear covers.

I really hope this doesn't turn out to be an issue on Gaterons in general...
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: hwood34 on Fri, 27 March 2015, 20:10:48: Just tried the switches with Cherry caps, no clearance problems
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: FoC_Tow on Fri, 27 March 2015, 20:15:52: Quote from: hwood34 on Fri, 27 March 2015, 20:10:48
Just tried the switches with Cherry caps, no clearance problems

THX! Could you try some artisans or any Caps with a thicker/supported stem pls hwood?

Rpeterclark posted the video of issues with a Warmaster cap which has a thicker stem mount, so I'm wondering if maybe only those Caps might cause issues...
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: rpeterclark on Fri, 27 March 2015, 20:24:07: I posted that video a while back and it prompted a few tests from others, I don't think anyone else found it to be an issue. It clearly was for me though. I was very pleased with the tops in every other way and have more coming in from the GB. I think we just won't really know if there are general issues or with their products until more people get to use them.
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: hwood34 on Fri, 27 March 2015, 20:35:46: So I tested it with a few different artisans and the only one I had problems with was the Warus which has a really thick stem
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: crazystu on Fri, 27 March 2015, 20:36:57: I've fixed my Cherry switch that had this problem.
See the attached image (apologies for the quality) - if you carefully look at the switch housing on top, you'll see there is a tiny bit of plastic poking out on the inside - this is what was causing it. The bottom housing is normal, both stems are fine.
I straightened the plastic with a flat-head screw driver and it works fine now.
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: Stabilized on Sat, 28 March 2015, 08:56:31: Quote from: crazystu on Fri, 27 March 2015, 20:36:57
I've fixed my Cherry switch that had this problem.
See the attached image (apologies for the quality) - if you carefully look at the switch housing on top, you'll see there is a tiny bit of plastic poking out on the inside - this is what was causing it. The bottom housing is normal, both stems are fine.
I straightened the plastic with a flat-head screw driver and it works fine now.

Thanks Crazystu, that seems to have fixed the problem for me :thumb:

Strange that the problem seems only to effect me, I have done some more testing with the keycaps that came with my Novatouch; they worked fine.
The lack of notch definitely plays into it (in my mind) as the clearance is much smaller on the Gaterons due to it. This means that if the plastic isn't molded absolutely perfectly it causes a Cherry DS keycap (or any other one with a slightly thicker stem) to get stuck on the key switch housing. I did easily fix this issue by just removing the slight plastic lip (caused by the molding process) on the key switch.
I did notice that the worst offender (the 1.75u shift) was partly down to the keycap molding not being entirely accurate, I removed the plastic lip and sanded down the stem of the cap; the problem seems to be mostly fixed now.

Quote from: pichu23 on Fri, 27 March 2015, 17:25:00
Quote from: rpeterclark on Fri, 27 March 2015, 17:14:08
OP's video shows red Gateron switches. My issue was with the clear Gateron switch tops. I haven't tried Gateron switches yet.

alright, cause I have like a clear switch with the original "milky" housing.
I've just put a cap over it and it seems fine. Maybe it's different for switches with stabs. iono lol.
hopefully it's not a serious issue. :-X

Yup I am using Gateron reds that I bought from Taobao (with the milky housing), and I have fixed my issue on pretty much all my keys now so it isn't a big deal ;)
Title: Re: Keycaps get caught on switch housing
Post by: pichu23 on Sat, 28 March 2015, 16:11:25: Quote
Quote from: pichu23 on Fri, 27 March 2015, 17:25:00
Quote from: rpeterclark on Fri, 27 March 2015, 17:14:08
OP's video shows red Gateron switches. My issue was with the clear Gateron switch tops. I haven't tried Gateron switches yet.

alright, cause I have like a clear switch with the original "milky" housing.
I've just put a cap over it and it seems fine. Maybe it's different for switches with stabs. iono lol.
hopefully it's not a serious issue. :-X

Yup I am using Gateron reds that I bought from Taobao (with the milky housing), and I have fixed my issue on pretty much all my keys now so it isn't a big deal ;)

heh, good to hear that ! :D