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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: spremino on Wed, 09 September 2009, 13:39:48

Title: Shining!
Post by: spremino on Wed, 09 September 2009, 13:39:48

Shining on keycaps make me feel like this:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/e/ef/The_Shining.jpg)

How can it be that IBM was able to make long lasting keycaps decades ago and modern manufacturers can't?

Now, I'd like to know whether you'd recommend a place to get durable keycaps for my soon to arrive Filco (European distributor would be better).

Thanks

Title: Shining!
Post by: Rajagra on Wed, 09 September 2009, 13:44:46

If the worst affected keys are alworkndpymejcub you should seek help. :-)

Title: Shining!
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 09 September 2009, 13:47:02

Quote from: spremino;116229

How can it be that IBM was able to make long lasting keycaps decades ago and modern manufacturers can't?

Different plastics and a more pronounced texturing.  The Filco caps are already pretty smooth; therefore, it doesn't take much to make them shiny.  The caps on my Cherry are POM, and those tend to be more resillient than ABS (Filcos), so my Cherry hasn't started to go shiny yet, either.  The flipside to this is that POM is pretty slick (at least on the Cherry, it is).  Those keycaps feel just like Teflon to me.

Title: Shining!
Post by: watduzhkstand4 on Wed, 09 September 2009, 13:54:18

actually my Model M got smooth really quick and now it's shiny on light use. Comparing that to my HHKB Pro 2, this Pro 2 is like sandpaper.

Title: Shining!
Post by: JBert on Wed, 09 September 2009, 14:18:36

Quote from: spremino;116229

Shining on keycaps make me feel like this:

Show Image

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/e/ef/The_Shining.jpg)

"All work and all shiny makes Jack a dull boy."

As for keycaps: hard to say. I have a few Cherry keyboards and the sturdiest keycaps are simply made without any texture at all.

Title: Shining!
Post by: JBert on Wed, 09 September 2009, 15:19:48

Hmmm, let me see...

Turns out they're not shiny by default. They don't have a pronounced texture but they do have a matte finish. Most keys don't have it anymore though.

Just for reference, here's a model F XT Esc key next to my G81's double-shot Esc key:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4360&stc=1&d=1252527496)

Title: Shining!
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 09 September 2009, 15:58:37

Quote from: ripster;116262

You'll never have children.

Thank goodness.

Title: Shining!
Post by: timw4mail on Wed, 09 September 2009, 17:28:25

If it bothers you so much, get keyboards that have easily replaceable keycap sets, and get lots of sets of keycaps.

I think a keyboard with blank black keycaps will look cooler with shiny keys...but I haven't such a keyboard long enough to tell yet...

I've typed on this Compaq keyboard for a week straight, and PBT keys still feel weird to me.

Title: Shining!
Post by: itlnstln on Thu, 10 September 2009, 08:19:10

Quote from: timw4mail;116313

If it bothers you so much, get keyboards that have easily replaceable keycap sets, and get lots of sets of keycaps.
 
I think a keyboard with blank black keycaps will look cooler with shiny keys...but I haven't such a keyboard long enough to tell yet...
 
I've typed on this Compaq keyboard for a week straight, and PBT keys still feel weird to me.

Or don't make crappy keys.
 
I just ordered a set of blank caps for my Filco.  The Cherry still looks brand new, though.  That's quality German engineering.

Title: Shining!
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 10 September 2009, 08:28:50

Quote from: itlnstln;116563

Or don't make crappy keys.

Well, I'm still waiting for metal keys, so I guess I can understand.

Title: Shining!
Post by: spremino on Thu, 10 September 2009, 17:56:36

Quote from: ripster;116262

They really are Teflon in disguise.

Really?

Title: Shining!
Post by: quadibloc on Thu, 10 September 2009, 18:52:51

Quote from: spremino;116229

How can it be that IBM was able to make long lasting keycaps decades ago and modern manufacturers can't?

Oh, that one is easy to answer.

How is it that keyboards used to have individual mechanical keyswitches long ago (the Dell AT101W, the Apple Extended Keyboard) and now they can only make rubber dome keyboards?

It's not a question of "can't". If a keyboard isn't wireless or otherwise fancy (i.e. Optimus Maximus, or even just Luxeed), it's a low-end $19.99 item, made as cheaply as possible in China. So if you put a wired keyboard on the shelf for $50, they would laugh at you.

But wait. You're talking about keys getting worn on your Filco? That might make it a harder question. Particularly as ABS is what keycaps were made of in the grand old days of cupped keys with double-shot molding, so it's not an inferior cheap plastic. But those keys were made smooth, not textured.

POM is superior to ABS, but it's an exotic plastic. Failure to use POM instead of ABS can be put down to a keyboard maker seeking merely very good keycaps, and going for superlative only for tactile feel.

Title: Shining!
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 10 September 2009, 18:56:31

Funny, IBM keys are textured on the Model M...

I think the color black just shows off shiny keys a lot more than the beige of the IBM era.

Title: Shining!
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 10 September 2009, 19:05:25

Quote from: ripster;116813

Still waiting to see some pics of shiny IBMs.   I know they are out there.  Also, what's the scoop on IBM's yellowing?  Do the keys tend to yellow at different rates?

I wouldn't know, my 1987 vintage is still very beige.

Title: Shining!
Post by: mike2h on Thu, 10 September 2009, 19:23:23

Quote from: webwit;116816

Because you can justify a $250 keyboard that goes with a $10k pc, but not with a $500 pc. Think of all the individual parts. Pressed out of the market. A pc producer would lose from the competitor selling cheaper pc's, which are also soft and silent. And along with the loss of market came the loss of most of the manufacturers. One of the few technologies that become worse.

 this is something i have wondered about since this site 'enlightened' me about kb's. if u go check out all the top end gaming comp producers none of them offer what you guys would call good kbs. not one.
including myself, i know lots of people with expensive rigs(2.5g+) & associate with even more on the internet. & none of them have 'good' kb & dont have a clue as to what the difference is. i fell into this category until a few weeks ago.
i think this is a failing of the kb industry as there is a market out there. steelseries, is bringing mechanicals to gamers attention, think gigabyte screwed the pooch with what appears to be vaporware. abs has wha tappears to be a cheap possibilty(according to the experts here:)) but no name recognition at all.
hopefully with elitekeyboards rollin pretty good, & steelseries doing their thing, high quality kbs will become more prevalent... & cheaper.

Title: Shining!
Post by: timw4mail on Thu, 10 September 2009, 19:25:23

Quote from: mike2h;116824

hopefully with elitekeyboards rollin pretty good, & steelseries doing their thing, high quality kbs will become more prevalent... & cheaper.

You know you just created an oxymoron?

Title: Shining!
Post by: mike2h on Fri, 11 September 2009, 01:06:07

no, what should i call him/her/it?  :)

Title: Shining!
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 11 September 2009, 03:10:15

Quote from: ripster;116813

Still waiting to see some pics of shiny IBMs.

The Model M I'm currently using has some smooth areas, for example a smooth patch on the right-hand side of the spacebar. But I just noticed that yesterday after looking really carefully, so I'm not sure I could make it show up in a photo.

Quote from: timw4mail;116826

You know you just created an oxymoron?

No, there is nothing self-contradictory about high quality becoming less expensive. Although, I admit that the word "cheap" has more than one meaning.

Quote from: spremino;116784

Really?

No, I think that was a joke.

Title: Shining!
Post by: ironcoder on Fri, 11 September 2009, 06:43:41

Quote from: webwit;116816

Because you can justify a $250 keyboard that goes with a $10k pc, but not with a $500 pc.

Dammit now how am I supposed to justify an 87U?

Title: Shining!
Post by: JBert on Fri, 11 September 2009, 07:43:18

With a $1200 pc and $400 worth of screens?
What's another 16% on top of that?

Title: Shining!
Post by: quadibloc on Fri, 11 September 2009, 09:16:06

Quote from: ironcoder;116931

Dammit now how am I supposed to justify an 87U?

"Justify" doesn't mean that a purchase has to be justified to someone else. It just means that ordinary buyers of computers, who aren't too aware of keyboard quality issues, can't justify to themselves paying that much of the computer's price for the keyboard.

Since computers tend to get replaced after a couple of years or so for something bigger and more powerful, and the keyboard doesn't change as often, and lasts longer than that, it's just as well, perhaps, that they come with cheap keyboards.

So that's how to justify the price of a good keyboard. Compare it to the price of all the computers you'll be using it with, not just the first one.

Title: Shining!
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 12 September 2009, 06:52:45

Some of the keycaps on my Model M are a little bit shiny but they still have their texture. But that's from 15 years of heavy use.

Title: Shining!
Post by: Xuan on Mon, 14 September 2009, 00:08:20

Quote from: ripster;116813

Still waiting to see some pics of shiny IBMs.   I know they are out there.  Also, what's the scoop on IBM's yellowing?  Do the keys tend to yellow at different rates?

I buy most of my IBMs NIB but I'm just curious.

Sorry for the terrible pictures, I couldn't find a better camera. But you get the idea.
I took those numpad keys from an old terminal M keyboard I found in the trash, I liked because they only labeled the numbers and not the useless stuff.
Sadly it looks like they received a pretty heavy data entry usage.