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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: effnish on Fri, 11 September 2009, 20:17:13
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My submit order button is paralyzed with indecision. I'm looking to buy my first mechanical keyboard and I'm at a total loss on which to try. I spent a small portion of youth typing on a IBM Model M and liked it more than any other keyboard I've owned, but all the others were the rubber dome style. It's been 15 years since I've used one, so I've forgotten how stiff the keys were. No problem with the noise of a click keyboard. Others will listen to me type and like it :biggrin:.
Now for the dilemma... I like the cost point of the Model M's especially for tank like construction, but I'm a little leery about the key force. All of my keyboards from the 4 Microsoft Keyboards and my T61 keyboard all weigh in at 62-65 grams to activate the keys. I frequently miss keys because I don't press hard enough, so I'm not sure I want to go the "Type like your trying to resuscitate 104 dead cats" route.
So here's my dilemma:
Unicomp Linux Variant
1. Love me some control key in the right spot action.
2. Familiar keyboard with great reliability
3. Less than stellar quality control on the plastics
4. 70cN key force, ouch.
Majestouch Tactile Click
1. Click + Lighter key action, you have my attention
2. $130, 2x the Unicomp price.
3. Looks to be a solid and beloved keyboard
iOne Scorpius M10
1. Still get Cherry Blues
2. Cheaper than the Filco, in the good way and the bad way.
Topre Realforce
1. Holy crap expensive.
2. Are they really that good?
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Being that it is your first mechanical keyboard in 15 years, I would actually suggest going with a good condition model M, on ebay. Those can be had for about $10-15+shipping. Just have to have a little patience. The reason I suggest this route is because your preference/ergonomics might have changed as you aged. If nothing else, you then have a model M as a backup keyboard if you decide to get something else.
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I think Unicomp's keycaps are way better than Filco's. Another option might be getting a Cherry G80-3000 with blues, which has great keycaps as well.
While the Filcos do seem to have a fairly good build quality, I think they're ultimately on the very high end of the price spectrum for what you actually get.
-huha
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I Know lal accuses me of pushing Topre boards but honestly try the cheaper boards first after you have typed on those for a bit and you feel they don't quite fit you then get a Topre preferably used in good condition (You can find them here in the classified section). Why do I recommend getting the Topre last? Because the darn things are expensive and if you are happy with a cheaper board great it saves you some money.
I agree with Iecorsair get some used ones either here in the classified section or on ebay to try out first. Once you have found what you like then spend the money on a good board.
For brown cherry - try getting a Compaq MX11800 they are cheap but have a lousy layout. But all we are trying to do here is to see if you like them
Blue Cherry - These are a little harder to find used. Post a WTB (want to buy) in the classified section someone may want to sell their board because they have replaced it with a better one or did not like it.
Same with the Model M get one off ebay and try it out and see if you still like it.
You can sell any of these trial boards here after you have decided what you like. There is always some demand for them because quite a few people are going through the same process of figuring out what they like and dislike.
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Thanks for the quick feedback. I didn't give the used route fair consideration. Given the availability and relatively low cost of a Model M, I think I'll start there.
Unless I'm completely blown away by the Model M, I think I'd still like to try the Cherry Blue switches to have something else to compare to. Sounds like a used G80-3000LSC may be a good balance between quality and affordability.
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Thanks for the quick feedback. I didn't give the used route fair consideration. Given the availability and relatively low cost of a Model M, I think I'll start there.
Unless I'm completely blown away by the Model M, I think I'd still like to try the Cherry Blue switches to have something else to compare to. Sounds like a used G80-3000LSC may be a good balance between quality and affordability.
Someone on here is selling a Scorpius M10, so if you are interested in the blues, you should check that out.
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I Know lal accuses me of pushing Topre boards but honestly try the cheaper boards first after you have typed on those for a bit and you feel they don't quite fit you then get a Topre preferably used in good condition (You can find them here in the classified section).
The League approves.
Rule #1: The solution to all your problems is: buy more keyboards.
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The League approves.
Rule #1: The solution to all your problems is: buy more keyboards.
At least I can agree with that rule.
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So it's official... I'm not allowed near forums, I'm just way too obsessive for my own good. This year I've spent 3 months on straight razors, 3 months on antenna designs / HTPC builds and a month over a kitchen knife. Now its keyboards. I type for a living so at least I have a better excuse for this one. Ask me and I'll tell you I had excellent excuses for all of them.
Since I posted last I've already purchased 2 keyboards and switched to Colemak. I found a Dell AT101W at a thrift store for $3.99 and bought a 1391401 (Jan '93) Model M off Ebay for $15.00+ shipping.
So far here are my impressions.
Model M:
Every bit as good as I remember them being. Wonderfully crisp and predictable keyboard. It only took a day maybe two to be able to type without bottoming out the keys. I could almost stop purchasing keyboards for this one board... almost. The force required to activate the keys is too high to be ideal. The stiff springs are no problem for the index and middle fingers, but the ring and pinky fingers are overworked. After typing for long periods of time, I don't get any joint pain but I do experience some muscle fatigue. Tell that to a construction worker... typing is so hard, I'm really exhausted at the end of the day.
AT101W:
Better key activation force than the Model M, but that may be all that I like better about it. I'm not sure how to explain this keyboard. I'd like to say it feels sluggish, it's just not as crisp to type on as the IBM. Hit a key a little off-center and it binds a little. Also, the keys don't seem to bounce back as well after being depressed. I'm not sure how tactile the key switches are but I never really learned to type on the board without bottoming out the keys. The key switches seem to be really unforgiving in this scenario. An hour or so of typing and I can feel it in my knuckles. I could probably be burned at the stake for this one, but I'd say the Dell is only marginally better than a rubber dome.
I've dabbled enough to know that I haven't purchased my last keyboard. It's more of a question as to what is next. I'm leaning towards FILCO/G80-3000 with blue cherries followed by a Topre board and maybe something with Brown Cherries if the previous two don't stop the urge. Of course I'm willing to give up the quest at a moments notice for the perfect board, but judging by the attendance on the forum, I should probably find a comfy seat.
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I actually agree with your assessment of the Dell. The black ALPS have a really steep tactile curve, and very subtle tactile point.
Personally, I think the blue cherry keyboards are overrated, but they are pleasant enough to type on.
I would suggest brown cherries myself, but see what you like and go from there.
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if you're going to try blue cherries i'd strongly suggest an m10. About $50 shipped via ergogeek's ebay store (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=scorpius+m10&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=). (its listed as $59 shipped but dont forget to use bing.com's ebay discount (http://www.bing.com/shopping/pages/howtouse.aspx) which varies from 8% to 20%). M10 has Solid construction (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4759) (dont let ripster scare you off with stories about solder joints; i just bought my second m10), great feel. Even blue cherry boards can differ in their acoustic and other qualities; the m10 is a great typer in every way and has [[strike]laser etched[/strike]] [[strike]really decent keys [/strike]] [hold your horses, might be laser etched after all? (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=123132&postcount=33)] (better than the keys on the more expensive filco, I'd wager (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=123009&postcount=20)) to boot.
Incidentally - cyberguys.com (http://www.cyberguys.com/product-details/?productid=14078)has the m10 too, for $52 plus shipping.
Incidentally cyberguys offers the advantage of a full 90-day, 100% unconditional satisfaction gaurantee; speaking personally, i think is a real consideration when buying from a storefront especially with these boards. All the more reason not to worry about solder joints (or anything else) with the m10:
From cyberguys website (http://www.cyberguys.com/company-information/Help.asp):
Return Policy -- 100% Satisfaction Guarantee
Cyberguys ® is pleased to offer a no risk, no hassle guarantee on every item we sell. Order any item, and if you are not 100% satisfied with it in any way, you can return it within 90 days, no questions asked.
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the m10 is a great typer in every way and has laser etched keys to boot.
Source?
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Source?
hahahahahahahahaha. Source is my experience, which may not be good enough for you tim ;) Though I'm looking forward to asking you for "source?" henceforth everytime you express an opinion on a keyboard ;)
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I'm with Tim. I'm skeptical the M10 is laser etched.
well my m10 is due to arrive tomorrow, so i'll post pics. Its not painted on and its not double shot, which leaves few alternatives.
By the way, where is that thread about the "dreaded Filco key wear"?
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I'm pretty sure it is painted on, as that's how it seemed to me to wear. Unless its really thin laser on ABS, I think its just screen-printed.
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I'm pretty sure it is painted on, as that's how it seemed to me to wear. Unless its really thin laser on ABS, I think its just screen-printed.
could be dye-sub printing which would still last longer than the printing on the filco...
(btw sorry tim, I thought you wanted a source for the first part of my sentence where I said the m10 is a great typer).
Ya we'll have to see what the keys are exactly, though I remember the printing on them was solid, not decals like on the abs m1, for such a cheap board I've never heard of m10 printing wearing out (unlike on the Filco). They could be dye-sublimated. I'll take some macro shots when I get the board tomorrow.
Either way my point was merely that for $50 odd bucks its an excellent board for the money; with keys that will likely last longer than the more expensive filco (I'm trying to find that well-known thread about printing wearing out on the more expensive Filco).
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could be dye-sub printing which would still last longer than the printing on the filco...
I doubt it, as it would be extremely difficult to do white on black with dye-sublimation. Really, I think its just screen-printing. Whether it wears better than the Filco, I really don't know, but I'm pretty sure its just screen-printing with a more durable ink.
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here are two references to filco key wear:
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=111555&postcount=29
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=105232&postcount=25
There was a longer thread on this topic somewhere tho, iirc.
course i havent had a filco long enough to experience it myself (and I swapped out the filco keys on my zero with aekii keys).
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I doubt it, as it would be extremely difficult to do white on black with dye-sublimation. Really, I think its just screen-printing. Whether it wears better than the Filco, I really don't know, but I'm pretty sure its just screen-printing with a more durable ink.
[strike]point taken, correction made in my original post (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=122993&postcount=12).[/strike]
retraction retracted (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=123132#post123132)
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There is no "dreaded FILCO key wear" thread, there has been talk about how the Majestouch matte key coating wears off over time with heavy use, but FILCO Majestouch boards are not alone in this regard in the market. In any case, I've never seen FILCO keys with the lettering worn off; someone on geekhack did show a supposed photo of letter-wear, it showed a single key where the letter looked dirty and a little gray-brown, but that's the closest I've seen and I don't recall any consensus on whether it was actual wear or dirt.
The lettering process used is proprietary and even I don't have the details on it, but I've had a Majestouch for longer than anyone I know (almost 4 years) and the lettering looks as good as the day I bought it.
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I had my M10 a few months, and the lettering was just starting to wear, so take that as you may. Then I got a blank Filco key set and put it on my M10. Problem solved :D
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someone on geekhack did show a supposed photo of letter-wear, it showed a single key where the letter looked dirty and a little gray-brown, but that's the closest I've seen and I don't recall any consensus on whether it was actual wear or dirt.
You may be referring to a photo I posted a few months ago of some keycaps from my blue Cherry tenkeyless (purchased from Korea before the existence of http://www.elitekeyboards.com). It's definitely not dirt or grime -- that was the first thing I checked. The visual appearance is of fading or discoloration, with the right Shift key being the most affected. Only a couple other keys have any visible fading -- but I'm uncertain whether this is due to lighter use, coating or paint inconsistencies, etc. I don't seem to favor the right shift over the left, so this may not be entirely wear-related.
I've since swapped the keycaps for a blank set, so no more wear is likely to occur. :smile:
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I had my M10 a few months, and the lettering was just starting to wear, so take that as you may. Then I got a blank Filco key set and put it on my M10. Problem solved :D
not doubting you tim, but in the original post (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6912)where you talked about your m10 key swap, you didnt mention key wear as the reason for buying the new keys, you said it was "on a whim" (to quote directly); and mentioned that you like the feel of the blank keys on the cherry stem and that was why you did the swap. Again, i'm not questioning your reasons, just mentioning because i dont recall much (actually, any, but i'm hedging) talk about m10 key wear so far. Not saying it might not happen, just saying it hasnt spawned threads yet.
your view of the scorpius there is also quite positive (as is mine): as you said: "I haven't had any trouble with my Scorpius, which I got for about $50 and the price of shipping. I saved a whole lot of money over a Das". Thats also my main argument in favor of the scorpius I guess. A decent blue cherry board at a good price, and if you buy at places like cyberguys, you can get it with a whopping 90-day 100% unconditional return policy to boot. All that for 50-odd bucks.
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your view of the scorpius there is also quite positive (as is mine): as you said: "I haven't had any trouble with my Scorpius, which I got for about $50 and the price of shipping. I saved a whole lot of money over a Das". Thats also my main argument in favor of the scorpius I guess. A decent blue cherry board at a good price, and if you buy at places like cyberguys, you can get it with a whopping 90-day 100% unconditional return policy to boot. All that for 50-odd bucks.
To me, the big problem is "have the quality issues been fixed?" I went to mechanical boards in part since I destroyed rubber-dome boards at a clip, and the old IBM Ms and Focus 2001s lasted longer. I don't want to spend 50 bucks if the board will self-destruct in 3 months, especially if I wait two months, I can spend $65 for a better blue board, which merely catches fire
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At least the supposed "world's best keyboard" isn't under consideration. I, like Hak Foo, would buy one then write a nasty letter: "1391401. I want my money back."
As I've said before, stop all this jibber-jabber and buy a Model M. You'll not regret it.
Luck with your purchase.
~rn
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LOL - he had bought one. He regretted it.
BTW - this is a common reaction so I'm not sure that the IBM Model M is the best first mechanical keyboard to get - esp if you end up paying as much as a Cherry keyboard. In this case he paid $15 plus shipping so it's no big deal.
I'm sorry the M didn't work out. It really is, IMO, the best keyboard in the world.
Not to make light of your situation, but when you mentioned finger pain, I thought about a portion of Brandon's FAQ at clickykeyboards:
Q. I have read that the use of a rubber-dome keyboard is "better" to type with than a buckling spring model M keyboard.
A. I do not think that it requires more "work" to type with a model M keyboard as compared to a standard keyboard. In fact,I think it requires less work..
If you are a weenie (have weak fingers), you probably are not an expert touch-typist with developed skills. I find it much easier to type with a keyboard that has some built-in resistance, because it allows me to quickly move my fingers across the range of keys on the keyboards without causing inadvertent key presses. Like pulling a trigger, each finger can depress each key to full muscle potential and not have to gingerly and tenderly prance across the keys.
:behindsofa:
P.S., more Lego vignettes, ripster. More, I say!
Cheers, and again, luck with your purchase.
~rn
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Brandon has an interesting sales technique. Insult the customer. He would also be insulting the millions of Selectric typewriter "amateurs" since that electric typewriter has an activation force 10g less than a Model M.
:lol: true enough. Brandon's a good guy, though, so I would say the FAQ is more tongue-in-cheek than blatantly insulting.
Again, nothing at all meant by pointing that out--just ruminating at 3 AM EST. :peace:
Cheers,
~rn
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Should I retract my retraction?
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5011&stc=1&d=1254764047)
(This pic is from the m10 I just received this morning; tho apparently I had already once posted that box pic in my original m10 review (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4759) about a year or so ago. I knew I hadnt pulled that info completely out of my ass, it was floating around my subconcious somewhere I guess. (Whether or not the m10 actually has laser etched keys is another matter; I do know that they seem to last, certainly longer than the decals on the m1 (which have already been commented on elsewhere in the forum), would be my guess; or the "controversial" filco key wear (already been discussed a few times on the forum, including touched upon in the thread above by skriefal and the links I posted). But either way, my point is, yes, I say decent keys on the M10 especially for the money. If they are actually laser etched as advertized, so much the better; if they're simply referring to some kind of laser printing, it seems pretty sturdy printing to me.
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(Especially since I know your Photoshop skills).
lol, you mean lack there-of ;)
However, why is the keyboard in the pic white?
apparently referring to a white version which is now discontinued... i would have preferred the white one ;) I noted that in my original review a year ago too ;)
Bring back the white m10! Hmmm, time for a petition? ;-)
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I would physically inspect the M10 since yours is black. Cherry is the only company I know of with black laser-engraved keys. Even the black Dell AT101Ws had silk-screened keys while the white ones were laser-etched.
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The keys on the BLACK M10 are as advertised, laser etched.
The font used is VERY thin, and the etching is not backfilled completely, leaving a slight depression which could become dirty very easily, appearing to be character wear when it is not.
I will say that this keyboard does fulfill the need of those who want to experience Blue Cherry switches at a very reasonable price point. While I am not using this board to type this response, my M10 is within reach and is surprisingly pleasant to work with.
Of course, YMMV........
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I would physically inspect the M10 since yours is black. Cherry is the only company I know of with black laser-engraved keys.
well, this IS a cherry board. I'll post close up pics shortly. I've got a comparison with the tvs brewing right now...
and like I say, whether or not it turns out to be lasered-as-advertized, I believe the print is pretty sturdy for the price. (My concern is always about value-for-the-money. For instance, If I pay over a $100, i'm expecting NO key wear (ie, i'll complain with disdain if I see it); this is a $50+ board and pretty decent for the money either way.)
This is part of my larger argument (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7130) that these days we cannot judge a keyboard simply by its price-range, especially the expensive ones, some of which honestly perform no better than $20 boards in some ways.
Anyway, we'll figure it out. More pics and [strike]procrastination[/strike] analysis coming... i'll post in my tvs review thread shortly.
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The keys on the BLACK M10 are as advertised, laser etched.
The font used is VERY thin, and the etching is not backfilled completely, leaving a slight depression which could become dirty very easily, appearing to be character wear when it is not.
I will say that this keyboard does fulfill the need of those who want to experience Blue Cherry switches at a very reasonable price point. While I am not using this board to type this response, my M10 is within reach and is surprisingly pleasant to work with.
Of course, YMMV........
thanks v. much for the confirmation ms.keyboard. I concur on all counts viz my own feelings and experience with the m10 so far :)
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well, this IS a cherry board.
While the point is moot, the Scorpius is not a Cherry 'board, it is a iOne 'board with Cherry switches. The G80-3000 is a Cherry 'board.
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While the point is moot, the Scorpius is not a Cherry 'board, it is a iOne 'board with Cherry switches. The G80-3000 is a Cherry 'board.
oh i see what you mean, you meant manufactured by cherry. True, this isnt that.
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Okay, so its laser-engraved. Unfortunately, laser-engraved is the most prone to showing dirt.
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Wow, it looks like I missed quite the discussion while at work today.
If you are a weenie have weak fingers, you probably are not an expert touch-typist with developed skills.
I know I don't get out much but I never thought of my fingers as weak, they're just not Model M capable sausages. Now my dad would probably kill for this keyboard. Fingers like bratwurst which were trained on a manual typewriter. I'm actually surprised and a little disappointed that ripster doesn't have a picture of Popeye sporting a nice IBM keyboard. Nobody builds forearms like that on spinach alone. Oh and keep your minds out of the gutter on that one. If someone made a Model M with 50cN activation force or less you would have to pry it out of my cold dead hands. As built I may just take a swing at you with it if you tried to take it.
I might also add that despite my complaints on the M, it's certainly not down in the basement with my stack of rubber domes (and the Dell). Rather it's front and center on desk. It's the clear winner of my current keyboard collection but like all addicts I'm looking for a better fix. Which begs the question, Are BS keyboards a gateway board? They're cheap highly available and leave you wanting more. I may be onto something there. Speaking of addictions... I'm just too intrigued with the blue cherries to not buy one, but think I'll let the debate unfold a bit more before deciding on a brand.
Thanks for the advice and the rather entertaining read.
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If someone made a Model M with 50cN activation force or less you would have to pry it out of my cold dead hands.
believe me, i've been harping about the need for exactly such a board for like a year now. I'm with you on that one.
I think I'll let the debate unfold a bit more before deciding on a brand..
well a lot comes down to what you need and what your budget is and what your personality is like.
For instance: if you have an unlimited budget, then arguments about price/value are rather moot. If you need NKRO for gaming, then the filco blue cherry tenkeyless or DSI's blue cherry modular would do it if you're in the US. If you dont need NKRO but need a decent typer, then other options open up (and at less than half the price, including the M10).
If you're going over $100 definitely consider the DSI boards; they have a neat modular concept. You can get refurbished ones on ebay starting at $110 (before any bing.com microsoft discount). With the modularity you can get numberpad or other accessories and attach them to the left or right side of the board.
a blue cherry refurbished white one on ebay for $110 (before bing discount):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Refurb-DSI-White-Modular-Mac-Keyboard-w-Tactile-Keys_W0QQitemZ380132468733QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item5881a927fd
Pretty good deal for around $100 after discount.
at the dsi store, the black one, new for $149 (again if you go thru dsi's ebay store, you can apply the bing/microsoft discount):
http://www.notestation.com/kb-modmac-umodularmackeyboard.htm
Lots of options actually. Depends on your budget, your needs, your personality. Dont forget there's also the new Das model (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7380)that just came out.
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believe me, i've been harping about the need for exactly such a board for like a year now.
we'll get you to try an ibm model f yet :D
there has to be a way to revive that technology in an affordable form... :)
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we'll get you to try an ibm model f yet :D
there has to be a way to revive that technology in an affordable form... :)
I think that GH project is next on the list after the open source controller :)
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I think that project is next on the list after the open source controller :)
now you're talkin'! :D :D :D :D
progress is being made on that controller even as we speak
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I guess I should point out that I'm cheap, well perhaps frugal is a better way to put it. I'll gladly spend money for a quality product if it's worth the money. I'm beginning to accept that I really don't know what I like in a keyboard. As such it's becoming increasingly more difficult to justify spending a lot of money on a single keyboard when I'm likely going to have to buy 4-5 keyboards to really have a well developed opinion.
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I guess I should point out that I'm cheap, well perhaps frugal is a better way to put it. I'll gladly spend money for a quality product if it's worth the money. I'm beginning to accept that I really don't know what I like in a keyboard. As such it's becoming increasingly more difficult to justify spending a lot of money on a single keyboard when I'm likely going to have to buy 4-5 keyboards to really have a well developed opinion.
want my tvs gold blue cherry for $28 shipped? I'm considering selling it since its so similar to my m10. Would be a cheap way for you to try out blue cherries. See my review of it (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7268)in reviews section if you want...
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we'll get you to try an ibm model f yet :D
there has to be a way to revive that technology in an affordable form... :)
I'm actually a little scared to admit I passed up a Model F at a thrift store out of ignorance of how rare they are. This one was in dire need of a truckload of TLC. It was missing 3 keycaps and was a gross combination of grease, dirt and yellow plastic. Judging from the cult following, it was probably still worth more than the $2 asking price.
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Judging from the cult following, it was probably still worth more than the $2 asking price.
go back and get it XD
but seriously, they are becoming hard to find that cheap :)
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I'm actually a little scared to admit I passed up a Model F at a thrift store out of ignorance of how rare they are. This one was in dire need of a truckload of TLC. It was missing 3 keycaps and was a gross combination of grease, dirt and yellow plastic. Judging from the cult following, it was probably still worth more than the $2 asking price.
There is something to be said for paying more for a clean, good-condition keyboard, though.
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First mechanical keyboard purchase:
After looking through these forums and seeing patrickgeekhack's youtube demos, I got the Scorpius M10 from cyberguys. I must first say that I love it and count the purchase a good one overall. However, there are two quality issues I'm trying weigh in deciding whether to return it for a replacement. 1) The switch on the left Window key does not audibly click. I popped off the keycap to double-check that it's a blue and that nothing was catching underneath---it all looks good, but it still doesn't click. 2) The space bar has to be bottomed out for the switch(es) to reset. If I only push it down enough to click and make a space on the computer, it doesn't click until again until after it has been bottomed out. It seems to be slightly crooked in the way it's set---I don't know if that indicates whether it could be easily fixed.
Questions: 1) Is the space bar top attached in the same way as the other keys---could I pop it out to see if there's some obvious solution? 2) Are the two issues with this keyboard anomalous? Would having it replaced likely result in a flawless product or just be a waste of time?
Even with those two issues, I love having it, but I'm new to this genre, and don't know if they're par for the course or something I shouldn't be having to deal with.
Thanks for any advice,
Dutch
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The spacebar fix is just a matter of getting it set right. Using a loop of wire, pry both ends up separately, align the white stabilizer pins, put them back in the spacebar, lock it into place, and it should work fine.
As for the click, I personally wouldn't worry about it unless it really bothers you.
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I think everybody has a "habit" of typing. If you missed the typewriter age and your whole experience of typing has been with rubber dome, Dell AT101W is probably the best step up with the least investment. If you ever liked the feeling of typing on a typewriter, especially the pure mechanic type, IBM Model M is the way to go. I find that I love AT101W very much simply because I spent too much time typing on a laptop keyboard. I don't find myself bottoming up on AT101W any worse than Model M.
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I think everybody has a "habit" of typing. If you missed the typewriter age and your whole experience of typing has been with rubber dome, Dell AT101W is probably the best step up with the least investment. If you ever liked the feeling of typing on a typewriter, especially the pure mechanic type, IBM Model M is the way to go. I find that I love AT101W very much simply because I spent too much time typing on a laptop keyboard. I don't find myself bottoming up on AT101W any worse than Model M.
My problem with that keyboard is that after the tactile point, it is extremely easy to bottom out compared with a buckling spring mechanism.
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My problem with that keyboard is that after the tactile point, it is extremely easy to bottom out compared with a buckling spring mechanism.
That's a problem with ALPS switches, in general. Maybe not if they are linear, but certainly for the tactile versions.
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Yeah, it was always the sharp tactile point in the ALPS switches that made me bottom out. That, and ALPS don't have the "springy" springs that Cherrys seem to have.
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I, for one, like a little friction now and then (preferably "now" more than "then"), just not in my keyboards.
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Thanks for the help. Yeah, the left Windows key doesn't bother me enough to send it back. I'll try ripster's suggestion next time I have a can of air/blow stuff. I was able to get the space bar off without breaking anything (thanks to the wiki for the words of caution), but didn't see that there was anything I could do to fix it. Oh well, I might not end up typing lightly enough anyway for the switch not to reset.
I love the feel and sound of this board, but now feel guilty for having to look askance at the inferior experience of typing on my AlphaSmart Neo! It's served me so well, and I hate being disloyal!
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Dutch, out of curiosity, I asked cyberguys their policy if you find any keys that arent clicking. Here's what they said:
"If the keyboard arrives defective, we will take care of shipping both ways. You will not be required to pay for return shipping for a defective item during your 90 day return period."
So if that key continues to bother you, just contact them. Wont cost you a penny. And you have 90 days too.
You can also simply return it. Isnt that something? (Actually thats nothing special - most vendors in the keyboard world and the the larger retail world in fact allow that).
Guys, no matter what ripster (and any vendors) try to tell you, please remember:
You have a right to find out details and shop according to your personal priorities.
-vendors are not the same
-return policies are not the same
-controllers are not the same
-keys are not the same
-what you get for your money is not the same
-your personal priorities are your own
This is true even within the small market niche of expensive mechanical keyboards, just as its true in the broader retail economy.
Dont let anyone bury the details, especially salesmen and fanboys.
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Oh shut up you MS toad. Remember, this is the hypocrite fanboy who wrote for hours and hours defending a company that is taking craps on consumer rights by design (http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/cases/index/by_nr_75.html#i37_792). Mr Righteous the MS lobbyist.
Time to visit a shrink and find a job, Don, before this all implodes. If you write this much, fanatically, on a stupid site which does not pay you for this, it's all gonna end in tears. Get a ****ing life.
Hey, I'm Don.
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Oh shut up you MS toad. Remember, this is the hypocrite fanboy who wrote for hours and hours defending a company that is taking craps on consumer rights by design (http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/cases/index/by_nr_75.html#i37_792). Mr Righteous the MS lobbyist.
Time to visit a shrink and find a job, Don, before this all implodes. If you write this much, fanatically, on a stupid site which does not pay you for this, it's all gonna end in tears. Get a - life.
Why don't you check and see what he's talking about before you go on a silly rampage?
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(http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/Catwalk/8809/briefs/tonto.jpg)
I bet you just live off the royalties now, dont you.
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I always wondered why they called him "stupid."
The Lone Ranger is a racist a*shole.
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Is that a hamburger on the T-shirt?
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Oh well. I guess we'll just have to try again some other time.
This is getting a little out of hand, though.
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We just need a big group hug.
If anyone grabs my ass, I'm punching them in the throat.
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so on the box, tonto is dreaming of boys' underwear...
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so on the box, tonto is dreaming of boys' underwear...
well, tonto or webwit, take your pick
Rippy you've got to be the most passive aggressive guy on this site. You're not mad anymore? Come on, I dont believe that. One of your little lego guys mooned me a while back. You telling me thats not as substitute for your ass?
At least itln fesses up to his fanboyism xD Again, consistency I can respect.
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One of your little lego guys mooned me a while back.
it was last night that the moon came out.
since he's not mad anymore, maybe that was a good way of blowing off steam.
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The cavalry must be defeated. Mob mentality must end. And vendors need to stop 'directing traffic' in the keyboard review section of the site. (To say nothing of help from their fanboys).
You know I love you guys, and yea i've been snippy lately, but whatever my mood I'm not going to silently watch valid criticism be buried. Na-ga-da. Its a crying shame to see that on GH. Never happened before like this, with vendors and fanboys participating.
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5274&stc=1&d=1255981283)
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so on the box, tonto is dreaming of boys' underwear...
Either that, or he's about choke the Lone Ranger and punch him in the grill for calling him stupid.
Man, that's weird picture.
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The cavalry must be defeated. Mob mentality must end. And vendors need to stop 'directing traffic' in the keyboard review section of the site. (To say nothing of help from their fanboys).
You know I love you guys, and yea i've been snippy lately, but whatever my mood I'm not going to silently watch valid criticism be buried. Na-ga-da. Its a crying shame to see that on GH. Never happened before like this, with vendors and fanboys participating.
i'd feel better if you did something constructive.
anything constructive.
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The long term solution to this (vendor + fanboy directing traffic in the review-section) problem is that maybe we need to get more vendors on here. IF we're going to have vendors (which I dont think we should) but if we're going to, then the doors should be opened wider.
For instance -- I'd love to see TWO blue cherry vendors on GH "go at it" for our favor. Wouldnt that be something to watch?
It shouldnt be us going at it as their proxies. They should be going at it directly. Like in a true capitalist system,and to our benefit. The problem right now is we have one monopoly vendor of blue cherries on the site - with intimate access to our keyboard review section.
No, open up the doors, lets get more vendors in here so they can do point-counterpoint with each other over the merits of their return policies, customer service, prices, keyboard quality, key quality, etc.
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What's really funny is that my Filco is not even my favorite 'board. If I fanboy for anyone here, it's Cherry Corp. Hell, you can even see that in the quote in Welly's sig. In that thread, I was trying to get majestouch to carry Cherry 'boards, so we could have another (and, IMO, better) alternative to Filcos.
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i'd feel better if you did something constructive.
anything constructive.
i find pointing out destructive fanboyism is the most constructive thing I can do. Un-burying criticism is not only constructive, its what this site stood for even just a week ago. Before vendors started directing traffic in the keyboard section.
I think it was Ripster himself who once suggested that reviewers and vendors can live side by side so long as they dont project themselves into each others sections.
Or Ripster, have you "changed your mind" on that too? I can bring up that quote of yours if you like.
Its silly to pretend Rippy hasnt changed on key views in his defense of his favorite vendor. I have a choice between excessive politeness or brutal honesty. Usually i've been polite, but it seemed important to make a stand here, where major lines were crossed for the first time.
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are you consolidating the considerations you've found, into one place?
edit: because it really doesn't take any effort to bury posts, they're buried automatically by sheer volume.
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I just like how on the one hand I'm majestouch's ***** and I fanboy for him and Filco while at the same time I keep telling people that Cherry makes the better overall keyboard and ask majestouch to carry them so we have an alternative to Filco.
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i just like how on the one hand i'm majestouch's ***** and i fanboy for him and filco while at the same time i keep telling people that cherry makes the better overall keyboard and ask majestouch to carry them so we have an alternative to filco.
such a convenient alibi, isn't it?????
(was supposed to be all caps)
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such a convenient alibi, isn't it?????
(was supposed to be all caps)
I know I'm a little slow, but I catch on.
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HA!
just realized that this is actually a separate topic than the 20pg+ original flamewar.
wow.
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This one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823174004).
Hey, at least it has an above-average rating.
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Fujitsu Peerless, keyboard of champions.
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Fujitsu Peerless, keyboard of champions.
I wish I could afford one. I would burn all my keyboards in a second if I could only get my hands on one.
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Hey, those are my neighbors. The guy in the middle is Colonel **** Dussendropp of the First Regimental Cavalry Batallion in the Texas National Army Corps of Marines. They will be leading the charge in the Legedary Struggle Of Texas Indepenence War of 2010.
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It would be nice if we could convince Elite Keyboards to stock Cherry brand keyboards.
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It would be nice if we could convince Elite Keyboards to stock Cherry brand keyboards.
XD subtlety. u has it.
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From what I read, the Cherrys are a step down from the Filcos. Sure they may have better caps, but who cares about that kind of thing, right? =P
Also, we all know that Brian is a closet Weeaboo. The German stuff just doesn't cut the mustard.
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From what I read, the Cherrys are a step down from the Filcos. Sure they may have better caps, but who cares about that kind of thing, right? =P
Also, we all know that Brian is a closet Weeaboo. The German stuff just doesn't cut the mustard.
I don't think so, but it doesn't scream quality (perceived or real) like Filco does. The Cherrys aren't as heavy, and the aesthetics aren't much to write home about, but they are solid keyboards with excellent build quality and, IMO, a better feel than Filco. They are certainly more "industrial" than Filcos, that's for sure. They have a face only a mother could love.
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Also, we all know that Brian is a closet Weeaboo. The German stuff just doesn't cut the mustard.
except he doesn't sell the kana-keyed ones. that actually proves that there's pretty much no way he is.
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He did once on the marketplace, but we'll let him off the hook...
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im just here for the pics
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Yes, that MS fanboy claims the people here know nothing about their consumer rights and he knows all, and he is gonna educate us. Just as he claimed we knew nothing about MS and he was gonna educate us, while completely ignoring the truth. What a complete **** toad.
Sorry, an honest viewpoint from a total newbie to this site,
Webwit you should be named webtwit. That or get on some prozac.
Just my 2 cents.
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:) there's a long history between those two
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Everytime Tonto speaks, I win. Love it.
Nuthin' to do but Dance!
>
[/youtube]
Thats a hell of a sidekick you got yourself there, Kemosabe. Careful, he might get some spittle on you.
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Some classic webwit quotes on Filcos:
"This means all they say about this can be regarded as lies, plain lies ;)" -- Webwit on Diatek, the supplier of the Filco Zero. (Presumably before Webwit recently "changed his mind" about criticizing Filcos)
"So, they have a million spare controllers with bugs.. what to do? Put them in other boards. This is why Costar must die a horrible death" -- Webwit on Costar, the OEM manufacturer of the Filco Zero. (Presumably before Webwit recently "changed his mind" about criticizing Filcos)
"I have however been bribed by shiny red fukka escape keys from Majestouch (thanks!) and will shup up now!" -- Webwit on why he wont criticize the Filco Zero any more.
"I will keep calling welly a **** toad" -- Webwit [My personal fav quote by far :D]
More, more vitriol and contradiction! You can do better than that! Come on!
[See? The lone ranger and Tonto DO make a great Filco team!] :D
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Please stop repeating yourself, or other people for that matter.
We've seen enough of Tonto AND the lone ranger for now. :-)
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Please stop repeating yourself, or other people for that matter.
nope. these quotes are worth repeating else they will get buried under the hypocrisy.
We've seen enough of Tonto AND the lone ranger for now. :-)
ok, batman and robin it is! (Guess which one's Webwit!)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_TkR-KeU-T2A/STYa50i-cbI/AAAAAAAABjs/oNh3O0H62eg/s400/Batman-Robin-Photograph-C12150175.jpg)
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nope. these quotes are worth repeating else they will get buried under the hypocrisy.
I think reposting only detracts from the actual conversation at hand, opinions change and people may still point out fallacies in people's assumptions (which imho includes vendors).
Anyway, carry on.
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So, what keyboard do you think OP will purchase after our advice?
The people on this forum have been very helpful, and very entertaining when side-tracked.
I'm currently typing on a TVS with blue cherries. Although I like the feel of the BS switch mechanism better, the activation force on the blue cherries is so much lower it's currently in the lead.
To not entirely derail the flame-war I offer this...(the embedded URL is disabled)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QyYaPWasos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QyYaPWasos)
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Wow. And to think all this started when a couple of us agreed with a vendor that Costar has an above-average printing process for keycaps.
So what does everybody think about Polygamist Mormon communities eating during Ramadan?
Don't answer that.
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I'm confused. I thought I was Tonto.
Nobody knows who they're talking to anymore, XsPhat. Webwit called Welly "Don" yesterday, and dammit, Greywolf, I'm getting tired of all the fighting.
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In the words of the immortal Mr. King,
"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything."
(Rodney that is)
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Rodney was wise...
The Great Experiment that is Geekhack (with reviewers and vendors side by side) can work I think only with high fences between us neighbors. I think the cardinal rule should be: Vendors shouldnt "sell" in the review section, and Reviewers shouldnt "review" in the vendors section.
If we can all stick to that diligently, peace (and the semblance of a neighborhood) might prevail.
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that sounds like a sensible idea :)
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I read that was after he shot at cops and broke bottles over their heads but I also read you're not supposed to believe everything you read. Now what do I do?
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Don't read a word you believe here at GeekHack.
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Dutch, out of curiosity, I asked cyberguys their policy if you find any keys that arent clicking. Here's what they said:
"If the keyboard arrives defective, we will take care of shipping both ways. You will not be required to pay for return shipping for a defective item during your 90 day return period."
So if that key continues to bother you, just contact them. Wont cost you a penny. And you have 90 days too.
You can also simply return it. Isnt that something? (Actually thats nothing special - most vendors in the keyboard world and the the larger retail world in fact allow that).
Guys, no matter what ripster (and any vendors) try to tell you, please remember:
You have a right to find out details and shop according to your personal priorities.
-vendors are not the same
-return policies are not the same
-controllers are not the same
-keys are not the same
-what you get for your money is not the same
-your personal priorities are your own
This is true even within the small market niche of expensive mechanical keyboards, just as its true in the broader retail economy.
Dont let anyone bury the details, especially salesmen and fanboys.
Mmmkay, well this was ages ago, but I had them replace it at not monetary cost to me. Excellent customer service. The one problem was that they shipped it to my dad's home instead of my apartment. I had originally entered my dad's home as shipping address by mistake since it was the billing address for one of my accounts at the time, but I had emailed them back to correct it before the original defective board shipped.
It only resulted in a delay in my receiving the keyboard.
I love the keyboard and use it at work. Sometimes, when I'm not really typing, the clicks sound a tad weak (especially compared to the unicomp spacesaver I got for Christmas and use at home (great feel, but way too loud for work)). When I really am working though, the sound and feel are so satisfying. It might have something to do with which tones I notice more during rapid, successive keystrokes vs those which stand out during single clicks.
Anyway, very happy with both keyboards. Thanks for the great forum and objective reviews.