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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 07:45:51

Title: I cut my throat. Next is yours.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 07:45:51

I cut my throat. Next is yours.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: lal on Sat, 12 September 2009, 07:55:25

Ingenious!  Does it work with ALPS, too?

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 07:58:06

Sure, even for Realforce and some Membranes also. I made just for Cherry but I think it is suitable for Alps too.
(What is ANTI TOPRE LEAGUE ? What kind of activitiy do you do ?)

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: huha on Sat, 12 September 2009, 08:16:30

Quote from: Hamblet;117244

Sure, even for Realforce and some Membranes also. I made just for Cherry but I think it is suitable for Alps too.

The crowbar is a very nice idea. I often use a fork for removing keycaps, I think that's the same principle.

Quote

(What is ANTI TOPRE LEAGUE ? What kind of activitiy do you do ?)

Trash-talking all things Topre. (http://www.ugly-smilies.de/data/uglycatch.gif) May I join? (http://www.ugly-smilies.de/data/ugly_sweet.gif)

-huha

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: nanu on Sat, 12 September 2009, 08:21:35

Very clever and simple.  I've been trying to design a HOLY GRAIL zero-effort remover but have gotten nowhere yet :J

Also, I very much like those blank keycaps (that are being lifted).

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sat, 12 September 2009, 08:34:20

now to get some paperclips
thanks for the well-presented instructions and demonstrations, too
instead of a blurry shot of a bent paperclip from a cell phone camera

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 08:36:21

Dear HuHa
50% you are right, 50% you are not right. The point is supporting point.
When you use your eating tools to dismantle keytops, probably supporting point is not on switch housing, so if you are in worst situation you can see switch_stomach (slider and spring) with alive. Mine has not that kind of pity accident at all. It always press slider shoulder which is located deep underneath keytops. And it lifts both points with same time so there is no chance to lose balance between your two hand muscles. As you know well if you lose your balance you could break slider easily. Last, it makes no scar faced keytop at all.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 08:39:58

Just need sanding paper and try and try. That is all I did.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 09:11:08

(http://blog.daum.net/?blogid=0QfQu&imgurl=http://cfile219.uf.daum.net/original/173F7D0F4AABAB5E)

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 09:17:43

It is a total disaster.
The other unwanted cases could be repaird with not much efforts, but this is way different.
Thanks Nice (?!) picture..

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 09:18:42

One more..
(http:// [url]http://blog.daum.net/?blogid=0QfQu&imgurl=http://cfile219.uf.daum.net/original/173F7D0F4AABAB5E[/url] )

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 09:22:34

One more shot.

(http://cfile219.uf.daum.net/original/173F7D0F4AABAB5E)

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 09:26:55

http://cfile219.uf.daum.net/original/173F7D0F4AABAB5E (http://cfile219.uf.daum.net/original/173F7D0F4AABAB5E)

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 09:28:04

(http://cfile219.uf.daum.net/original/173F7D0F4AABAB5E)

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: lal on Sat, 12 September 2009, 09:31:53

Quote from: Hamblet;117244

(What is ANTI TOPRE LEAGUE ? What kind of activitiy do you do ?)

We watch the lost souls that went the dark path of Topre.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: lal on Sat, 12 September 2009, 09:38:01

Quote from: huha;117246

May I join [the Anti-Topre League]?

Yes, fellow buckling spring worshiper :)

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 12 September 2009, 10:32:12

Quote from: lal;117273

We watch the lost souls that went the dark path of Topre.

Oh give me a break. Just because my fingers start to hurt on a BS and the Topre switch does not I'm evil. I think lal's real problem is that he is afraid he will like the Topre if he ever gets up the nerve to try one.

But hey to each there own. I have tried all the mechanical switches and found them lacking in some way. Then tried the Topre which suited me perfectly. And I have consistently advised people to try other boards first because these Topre boards are expensive but I do believe you are getting what you pay for. I just wish you closed minded BS people would open your eyes and understand that every one does not like the BS boards. Me personally would use a BS if I could but I don't want my hands and fingers to hurt all day after having typed on one. If the darn cherry browns felt better I may have settle on those but it was lacking.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 12 September 2009, 10:34:02

Quote from: lal;117275

Yes, fellow buckling spring worshiper :)

Oh so this is a cult that worships idols. Sorry don't want any part of that.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: lal on Sat, 12 September 2009, 10:53:08

Quote from: rdjack21;117282

I think lal's real problem is that he is afraid he will like the Topre if he ever gets up the nerve to try one.

Only in my worst nightmares.

Quote

I do believe you are getting what you pay for.

This is exactly what they want you to believe.

Now seriously, I would happily try a Topre to see for myself that the construction is top notch and the tactile feel is indistinguishable from any other h/q rubber dome board, if they'd sell them with an acceptable profit margin (maybe fifty bucks per board?).  But currently I'm not stupid enough to let them rip me off.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hak Foo on Sat, 12 September 2009, 11:34:12

For the price of one Realforce 103, I can have three Customizers or G80s.

Now, if the Realforce lasted as long as three other quality keyboards, I could see it.  But it would have to be rated 150 million keystrokes.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 12 September 2009, 16:15:15

Quote from: webwit;117296

Pah! The anti-topre league would have been so much more impressive had it actually used a topre keyboard. We -will- get you to spend 200 euro on rubber.

Yea that is why I really just try to ignore him.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 18:57:09

The quality (i.e. design, molding, cutting, bonding, fabrication, finishing etc) of Topre is extremely high. So does price. First model showed in market 8 years ago. I think it is time to reconsider price policy. Now auto biz is in big trouble so does Topre, because they are mainly auto parts supplier, i heard. The portion of KBD is just 1 or 2 percent of whole Topre sales. So, Realforce price is not going to down in near future.
I like its comfortable feeling very much, but I can not afford it. And moreover, I hate monopolistic behavior.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Ulysses31 on Sat, 12 September 2009, 21:00:57

My key-puller is a forefinger and thumb.  If you are a weakling or have slippery keys, one of those cheap latex disposable gloves will give you plenty of grip.  Keys with balancing bars do not exist >_>.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 12 September 2009, 21:13:48

Quote from: rdjack21;117282

Oh give me a break. Just because my fingers start to hurt on a BS and the Topre switch does not I'm evil. I think lal's real problem is that he is afraid he will like the Topre if he ever gets up the nerve to try one.
.

I firmly believe the world is divided into heavy typers and light typers and never shall the two meet.  Kind of like mac and pc users, catholics and protestants, pepsi vs coke, or dems and repubs.

I'm a heavy typer. I tried to be a light-switch guy. I really tried. Its freaking genetic man. I couldnt change.

I suspect its the same way for light switch folk.

Is there anyone here who can go both ways, as it were?

So all thats left is to bash each other into unwilling submission. But hey, that can be pretty fun sometimes ;)

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 12 September 2009, 21:31:20

EDIT: Added quote for what I'm answering I took to long hunting up those darn pics...

Quote

The quality (i.e. design, molding, cutting, bonding, fabrication, finishing etc) of Topre is extremely high. So does price. First model showed in market 8 years ago. I think it is time to reconsider price policy. Now auto biz is in big trouble so does Topre, because they are mainly auto parts supplier, i heard. The portion of KBD is just 1 or 2 percent of whole Topre sales. So, Realforce price is not going to down in near future.
I like its comfortable feeling very much, but I can not afford it. And moreover, I hate monopolistic behavior.

End EDIT.

The patent for the Topre switch was granted in 1986 with a filling date of 1984. Topre has been making boards pretty much since then or a little before. But they where primarily making OEM products verses having their own product line (RealForce) until early 2000. But even before that they had a line of unbranded keyboards I'm typing on one of them right now. I have also been able to find some evidence of Topre OEM boards that were produced in the mid to late 80's but can't find much to any documentation on them.

The oldest one I've been able to find pictures of is the Sony NEWS NWP-411 and NWP-411A these were used on Sony Video work stations in 1987 and for your viewing pleasure:
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4466&stc=1&d=1252808919)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4463&stc=1&d=1252808919)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4464&stc=1&d=1252808919)
(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4465&stc=1&d=1252808919)

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sat, 12 September 2009, 22:10:59

rdjack21, Thanks nice picture.

How is rubber degradation ? Looks no good in the last picture.

Hmm, it does not matter. If you can use one keyboard more than 20 years. That is good enough.

Anyway, please tell Topre make a little bit cheaper than now.
(How long one patent can alive ?)

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 12 September 2009, 23:07:39

Quote from: Hamblet;117383

rdjack21, Thanks nice picture.

How is rubber degradation ? Looks no good in the last picture.

Hmm, it does not matter. If you can use one keyboard more than 20 years. That is good enough.

Anyway, please tell Topre make a little bit cheaper than now.
(How long one patent can alive ?)

That is not my board :( I do have a NISSO Electronics KB106DE coming though that may be just as old or maybe not. I really don't know because finding information on it is even harder so I don't even know when it was made. And that unbranded one I'm typing on I found new in the box and it was discontinued in 2002 from what I've been able to find.

That picture of the dome just looks dirty to me.

I want to make sure I don't miss lead you into thinking that I've been typing on Topre's for 20 years. I only just discovered them. But I'm really trying to find some of the older ones expressly for determining how they hold up. Also I really want some of those cool cuped keys which the NISSO does have.

EDIT: Forgot to add I would love to find one of those Sony NEWS keyboards but those things were 50kyen new and were only sold with the Sony Workstations which sold in the multi million yen range. I have found some parts for the system for sale but not the keyboards. Not sure why did they just get chunked out with the system maybe because like old terminal keyboards they had a strange connector on them but the 411A was supposed to be AT compatible. Oh well enough rambling.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: rdjack21 on Sat, 12 September 2009, 23:09:32

Quote from: wellington1869;117374

I firmly believe the world is divided into heavy typers and light typers and never shall the two meet.  Kind of like mac and pc users, catholics and protestants, pepsi vs coke, or dems and repubs.

I'm a heavy typer. I tried to be a light-switch guy. I really tried. Its freaking genetic man. I couldnt change.

I suspect its the same way for light switch folk.

Is there anyone here who can go both ways, as it were?

So all thats left is to bash each other into unwilling submission. But hey, that can be pretty fun sometimes ;)

Wellington I could not agree with you more. I love the BS boards but I just can't use them comfortably all day.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sun, 13 September 2009, 05:03:44

if longevity for price is all that matters then i am sure $10 keyboards in larger quantities could beat both

still dont own one but still

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: lal on Sun, 13 September 2009, 05:58:17

Quote from: rdjack21;117387

But I'm really trying to find some of the older ones expressly for determining how they hold up.

You're *really* eager to disprove the claim that Topre longevity is questionable, eh? Would be a nice little argument to help justify the astronomically high price :)

Even if you do find a couple very old Topres that seem to still feel good, it has essentially *no* evidentially validity compared to the masses of 20+ years old Model Ms and Cherry or ALPS boards that are floating around all over the place.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 13 September 2009, 06:30:30

Quote from: lal;117433

You're *really* eager to disprove the claim that Topre longevity is questionable, eh? Would be a nice little argument to help justify the astronomically high price :)

Even if you do find a couple very old Topres that seem to still feel good, it has essentially *no* evidentially validity compared to the masses of 20+ years old Model Ms and Cherry or ALPS boards that are floating around all over the place.

Yes Topres are expensive, but it needs to be put in perspective. Even if Topres only last a year, the cost per day is less than the price of a cup of coffee from a shop. And that's greasy spoon prices, not Stashbucks.

I've lost count of how many expensive mice I've bought because I refuse to put up with bad ones. I've no regrets now I've started buying keyboards that suit me too. They say the best things in life are free. But even the 'finer' things turn out to be affordable over the long term.

It's good to indulge yourself sometimes. I prefer to buy what I really want and feel I've wasted some of that money, rather than buy second best and feel I've wasted all the money.

:focus: Oh, awesome job on the tool, Hamblet. Is the final photo the Pro version?

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: lal on Sun, 13 September 2009, 06:58:40

Rajagra, that's the *only* way to go!  If you say "hey, I know that I pay ten times the real value but that last bit of perfection makes it worth it for me, and I can afford it", that's totally okay.  No problem with that.  But the price should not generally be considered reasonable.  It's not.

The main clever marketing trick Topre does it that they exploit the simple customer expectation "high price -> high quality", and since Topres are by far the most expensive boards, they just *have* to be the best of all, don't they?  And since only geeks with interest in high quality keyboards come here, there are many potential victims to fall into this trap.  The League is here to protect and help those poor geeks ;)

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: AndrewZorn on Sun, 13 September 2009, 07:00:23

regardless of the cost of the controversial switch and the markup, aren't the topre boards regarded as some of the highest quality ones available?  like the keycaps, casing, etc

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sun, 13 September 2009, 07:09:21

:focus:

Dear, Rajagra..Yes, I have finished updating my idea. The photo you saw are final ones.
I can take some more photos if you want, but I am not good at posting photos. Is it not possible to post photos directly into this site ?

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 13 September 2009, 07:17:53

Quote from: Hamblet;117442

Dear, Rajagra..Yes, I have finished updating my idea. I can take some more photos if you want, but I am not good at posting photos. Is it not possible to post photos directly into this site ?

It is possible. If you click on the Attachments icon (the paperclip) it allows you to upload pictures from your computer (as long as they aren't too big.) When they are uploaded, click Attachments again to show the pictures in your post.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Sun, 13 September 2009, 07:29:15

It it not looks like professional, because I am not a professional.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 13 September 2009, 07:54:06

It's clear enough. Thanks. :cool:

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 13 September 2009, 09:11:52

Quote from: lal;117433

You're *really* eager to disprove the claim that Topre longevity is questionable, eh? Would be a nice little argument to help justify the astronomically high price :)

Even if you do find a couple very old Topres that seem to still feel good, it has essentially *no* evidentially validity compared to the masses of 20+ years old Model Ms and Cherry or ALPS boards that are floating around all over the place.

You know lal I'm pretty much through arguing with you because it is a wast of time. Have you ever gone and tried to see what that IBM Model M cost when it was new back in the 80's? And they were mass produced where the Topre is not.

And no I'm not really eager to prove anything to you I could care less how you feel about the Topre boards. I would just like to have some of those older boards.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: rdjack21 on Sun, 13 September 2009, 09:19:42

Quote from: lal;117438

The main clever marketing trick Topre does it that they exploit the simple customer expectation "high price -> high quality", and since Topres are by far the most expensive boards, they just *have* to be the best of all, don't they?  And since only geeks with interest in high quality keyboards come here, there are many potential victims to fall into this trap.  The League is here to protect and help those poor geeks ;)

There is no exploiting going on here lal. Those that buy a Topre know what they are getting when they get one. We are not victims we are Extremely happy customers that willingly pay for a high quality product.

It's the jealous cult members of the "anti topre league" that are being exploited.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: lal on Sun, 13 September 2009, 09:39:22

Quote from: rdjack21;117477

You know lal I'm pretty much through arguing with you because it is a wast of time.

To whom am I replying then?

Quote

Have you ever gone and tried to see what that IBM Model M cost when it was new back in the 80's? And they were mass produced where the Topre is not.

1. Realforce are mass produced.
2.  Current h/q mechanical boards cost about $60, and this is already considered a high price for a mere keyboard generally.  But this price is actually justified by the much higher production costs for the individual switch modules which must be soldered to the PCB, et cetera.  No way a Topre rubber dome board can cost more to produce.  Delicate plastic mixtures for $200?  Probably not...

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: spremino on Sun, 13 September 2009, 09:51:15

Quote from: rdjack21;117483

There is no exploiting going on here lal. Those that buy a Topre know what they are getting when they get one. We are not victims we are Extremely happy customers that willingly pay for a high quality product.

When there are enough customers willing to buy and a few stepping back, that means the product's price is right. Apple has always charged more for their products, and still has people queuing whenever they release something.

Value is in the eyes of the beholder.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Thu, 10 March 2011, 09:36:30

I do not want to make this thread re-new. I just want to add one of my simple idea silently. (Yes, I know that is not possible).

If you have ever tried my older idea, you could have found that it does not work properly in case of dense position (such as FILCO board Esc key). The width is not enough. Same spot on Cherry board is not that much bad. So, I had to make another tiny puller again.


How to use:
Use your two fingers mainly - index finger and thumb.
Use this puller just for supporting role (Adding lifting force a little bit).


Thanks.

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Thu, 10 March 2011, 09:48:38

It is a kind of total regression in terms of safety (free from scratch, free from keytop stem breaking, free from seeing slider alive). But, unfortunately there is no choice (I mean, no space). Do it. Do pulling the keytops barbarically..

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: artee on Thu, 10 March 2011, 11:52:45

can't I just use 2 of these tiny puller in opposite corners of the key and lift it that way?

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Thu, 10 March 2011, 18:41:57

Quote from: artee;309210

can't I just use 2 of these tiny puller in opposite corners of the key and lift it that way?

Yes, why not.

But, do it very carefully. If you lose your balancing and centering, the result could be horrible. Keep the height of all 4 corners evenly all the time.

I recommend you to use this tiny puller as an assistant tools in just emergency situations. Use your two fingers as a main tools - it removes all the degree of freedom except the upper direction. But, the lifting force of fingers is a bit low. Now you can see the true value of an assistant. The puller increase lifting force several times (one puller is good enough).

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Thu, 10 March 2011, 19:03:38

Quote from: ripster;309273

Reviewing this Necro thread and Lal's posts I am appointing myself as carrier of the flame of the "AntiHype Topre League".

Show Image

(http://geekhack.org/customavatars/avatar1412_3.gif)

Mr. Necro
I am not familiar with the word "Necro", so I refer to a local dictionary.
But, I am not sure still. I hope it has not bad meaning.

Thanks.


necrosis, necropsy, necrotic, necropolis, necromancer, necromancy, necrophilia, necrophile, necrobacillosis,necrobiosis

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Hamblet on Thu, 10 March 2011, 19:38:15

Quote from: ripster;309585

It's fine.  Just means you brought back a thread from the dead.

No. Not At All.

After several times reading those magenta vocabularies. I understand its hidden meaning very clearly.


YOU insulted ME. YOU are one garbage.

I do not want waste my time with gargabe anymore.  I need a little bit nice one (I mean a human, not a garbage).

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: keyboardlover on Thu, 10 March 2011, 19:39:03

Rofr?

Title: Lifter, Nor Puller or Remover.
Post by: Armando Penblade on Thu, 10 March 2011, 22:06:09

NO YOU ARE CALLING HIM A NECROPHILE. YOU POSTED THAT LEGO MAN TO AROUSE HIM. HAVE YOU NO SHAME?

Holy [strike]crap[/strike]cap, I just found a use for that funny key on the left!