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geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: KHAANNN on Fri, 24 April 2015, 09:38:48

Title: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 24 April 2015, 09:38:48: I probably should've just ordered a GON plate, PCB and build a 60% with just the 2.75 shift sliced to 1.75+1 to use as arrow keys, as it is the optimal layout for me

However at the time, I wasn't very fluent in keyboard economics/dynamics, I wasn't aware of the possibility, how It would be faster / more practical, more logical to go that route, so I joined MassDrop for infinity keyboards and waited, still waiting

The infinity keyboard has all 1u top rows, which is extremely keycap incompatible to start with, most of the keysets lack a 1u \| and a 1.5u backspace key, which is the aesthetical issue

The usability issue is the muscle memories, I'm not sure whether I should override mine with the 1.5u backspace

So the options:
1) Use ,~ + 1u DEL at the top row to replace the regular 2u backspace, keep on using the backspace muscle memory, use my existing keycap collection as they are ~all DSA and has the keycaps, they all look beautiful with 1u ESC + 13 keys + 1u DEL, the ESC and DEL generally create a nice contrast, I'm very keen on this setup
2) Use ,~ + \| at the top row and 1.5u key as the backspace, replace the muscle memory in a ~week, create an incompatibility with regular keyboards, get challenged by keycaps, lose the aesthetics, yet the backspace is heavily used, 1.5u backspace makes sense from the usability aspect

Here is one of the mashups: (This one was on my table, it turned out too tacky in my opinion, however it demonstrates the top-row issue well)
[attach=1]
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 24 April 2015, 11:43:22: [attach=1]
This one turned out a bit better, in any case, my potato-ish pics capture the contrast issues of the deep space set well

While deep space set is not too aesthetically pleasing in real life, the placement of the keys are perfect, as the right purples are arrows, they stand out well, the blue enter prevents the mis-clicks with arrows visually, the non-standard DEL at the top stands out at extreme levels, which eases the switch etc.

Dolch/Decked Out/Eve mashups are perfect with the option (1) - especially Dolch with Eve Enter/Esc is a masterpiece

Yet for (2) - it's almost impossible to get together a perfect set with all these keycaps I collected (or hoarded)
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 April 2015, 11:48:03: Once you get used to the HHKB layout, using the |\ key as backspace, it's hard to go back. It's that much better for a 60% layout. The only way I am able to switch between them is that I use HHKB layout on all my 60% boards, and use standard ANSI on TKL and full size. The hands seem to remember where to go, based on what size the keyboard is.
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 24 April 2015, 13:11:55: Quote from: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 April 2015, 11:48:03
Once you get used to the HHKB layout, using the |\ key as backspace, it's hard to go back. It's that much better for a 60% layout. The only way I am able to switch between them is that I use HHKB layout on all my 60% boards, and use standard ANSI on TKL and full size. The hands seem to remember where to go, based on what size the keyboard is.

I do believe you, and thanks for your input, I switched from ISO to ANSI 2-3 months ago, the switch was instantaneous and enjoyable, going back to ISO is unthinkable now, I have a hunch the 1.5U backspace switch might be the same, painless and fun, rewarding later on (similarly using the rightmost 60% keys as arrows came natural, however I mis-click the enter sometimes instead of the up-arrow)

The keycaps don't agree tho, It's extremely easy to just give up the usability aspect of 1.5U and use a regular / top placed 1U backspace

There is also the symmetry of the Escape and the Backspace for the 1u layout, whereas the 1.5U one would be very misclicky at first, since it's closer to Enter and away from it's regular position

I will have the chance to experiment with them both when I receive the hack'd by geeks set, which has printed keycaps that cover both options, but I'm guessing I will give the 1u option a chance first, as it seems to be the simpler option for the short term

(I also grab the keyboard from sides instead of hovering my hands over the keyboard, so the top keys are easy to press, really easy to press)
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: Joey Quinn on Fri, 24 April 2015, 13:24:50: I bought a GON HHKB purely to use the 1.5u as a backspace, I hated switching between it and the standard 2u. When I build my Lightsaver I'll probably keep the 1.5u backspace. The HHKB layout ruined me.
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: azhdar on Fri, 24 April 2015, 13:37:49: tfw when 'murican want Backspace right above enter, yet don't use ISO

(http://funny-pics-fun.com/wp-content/uploads/Funny-Laughing-Face-Contagious-Laughter-9-320x240.jpg)
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: Joey Quinn on Fri, 24 April 2015, 13:42:00: Quote from: azhdar on Fri, 24 April 2015, 13:37:49
tfw when 'murican want Backspace right above enter, yet don't use ISO

Show Image
(http://funny-pics-fun.com/wp-content/uploads/Funny-Laughing-Face-Contagious-Laughter-9-320x240.jpg)

I've only used 1 ISO board after using my HHKB for months and it nearly killed me. That being said the split left space is fun for adding more Fn keys.
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 April 2015, 13:45:56: ISO Enter sucks. :(
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: Joey Quinn on Fri, 24 April 2015, 13:52:40: It's worse than caps lock.
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 24 April 2015, 13:58:08: Quote from: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 April 2015, 13:45:56
ISO Enter sucks. :(

I was a big fan of the ISO Enter before mechs and stabiliser logic absorption, now I'm a fan of the simplicity of the ANSI Enter

It works when it works tho: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67446.msg1724345#msg1724345
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: Joey Quinn on Fri, 24 April 2015, 14:00:04: Quote from: KHAANNN on Fri, 24 April 2015, 13:58:08
Quote from: jdcarpe on Fri, 24 April 2015, 13:45:56
ISO Enter sucks. :(

I was a big fan of the ISO Enter before mechs and stabiliser logic absorption, now I'm a fan of the simplicity of the ANSI Enter

It works when it works tho: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67446.msg1724345#msg1724345

I love how Cody's board looks but I wouldn't want to type on it. ISO looks good but in this case I choose function over form.
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 08 May 2015, 17:58:52: I'm able to use the 1u del at top without misclicks with only a day of usage, in the initial hour of usage, I mis-clicked the `~ a couple of times, it was especially confusing since ` is very similar to ', but now those misclicks are gone.
However, there's a minor stretch compared to a 2u regular backspace, my middle finger is slightly strained

After actually trying the setup, I'm very tempted to try out the 1.5u backspace too, but I will probably just endure and give the 1u a week or so

I think 1.5u is superior in an all 1u top layout, but I just can't let go of the keycap issues, with the 1u Delete, all keycap sets comply

Out of all the DSA sets, only the deep space is truly compatible, since it includes a 1u \| and a 1.5u backspace, however with that set's contrast, using blanks would even be better

-----

The actual lesson is: Instead of investing a lot on infinity keyboards, I should have just combined a Nerd60/Spirit60 with a universal 60% plate, to achieve a regular 2u backspace + 1.75/1 right shift setup, which is the optimal layout for me, and it's a non-experimental solution in terms of the actual keyboard, it's kind of the reason why I'm not using the 1.5u backspace, as I can't decide whether I want to discard my infinity investment and go the custom route, yet
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: KHAANNN on Tue, 14 July 2015, 14:16:42: In case someone experiences the same dilemma, let me just share my experience before asking another of these questions :)

1U: For me, the 1U definitely didn't work, the backspace/delete is one of the most used keys, it shouldn't be 1U
1.5U: This was fun at first, I know I could have gotten used to it, but I didn't, I realised that I love the 2U backspace, can't do without it, I'm no where near an optimal typist, I mainly type with 2 fingers, there is no point in forcing myself to use the theoretically better 1.5U backspace - also finding keycaps for the 1.5U backspace layout is almost impossible (actually not too impossible, but still challenging)
2U: discard whatever investment you had on 1.5U, drill the PCB yourself to go back to 2U if you have to, this was what I did and I'm glad I did it

(To sum up, if you don't want to switch to 1.5U, you should keep on using 2U)
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: ideus on Fri, 30 October 2015, 19:46:13: Thumps up for your color combo.

Regarding your questions, my rate, based on my own experience is:

ANSI with regular 2u backspace.
ANSI with 1u backspace.
.
.
.
large gap here
.
.
.
ISO with 2u backspace.
ANSI with 1.5u backspace, ala HHKB.

Besides actual typing functionality, the first one has full support in GBs' sets, the second is easily workable using the delete key. The third with ISO lacks all support in buys, and the position of the enter key has the worst ergonomics. The last was just a no go for me, I tried it for a couple of weeks with no luck, for some is a dream though, it was not my case; besides, there are few key cap sets that covers it. As I am into Cherry double shots the standard 2u backspace is the best and more elegant solution.
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 30 October 2015, 20:35:30: Quote from: ideus on Fri, 30 October 2015, 19:46:13
Thumps up for your color combo.

Regarding your questions, my rate, based on my own experience is:

ANSI with regular 2u backspace.
ANSI with 1u backspace.
.
.
.
large gap here
.
.
.
ISO with 2u backspace.
ANSI with 1.5u backspace, ala HHKB.

Besides actual typing functionality, the first one has full support in GBs' sets, the second is easily workable using the delete key. The third with ISO lacks all support in buys, and the position of the enter key has the worst ergonomics. The last was just a no go for me, I tried it for a couple of weeks with no luck, for some is a dream though, it was not my case; besides, there are few key cap sets that covers it. As I am into Cherry double shots the standard 2u backspace is the best and more elegant solution.

I agree with your points

I fancy "ISO with 2u backspace." too much tho, I have several GMK ISO Enter's that are too pretty to leave unused

Even though, at this point, I have enough GMK keycaps to make any layout work, ANSI/2u is my choice too

At least something positive came out of this 100-posts GH/brocaps thing, we had the chance to verify our choices
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: E3E on Fri, 30 October 2015, 20:54:03: In my opinion, I agree with JD. Once you get used to the HHKB layout and use the 1.5u backspace, it's hard to break the habit. I find myself hitting '|\' on my Octagon after getting used to typing on my Infinity with its HHKB layout. It's very natural and comfortable to use in my opinion. The major downside is key cap incompatibity for Cherry MX.

The 1u backspace is something I've used with some old Alps boards. Despite how short it is and awkward in appearance it might be, I think that since it's in the same location as the standard 2u ANSI backspace, it's not hard at all to get used to. I used it with no problems, but I do think that it is the worst looking of all aesthetically.

Anyway, my wrist is starting to hurt just below the thumb. Haven't felt this before, but I should probably stop typing for now. :P
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: KHAANNN on Fri, 30 October 2015, 21:25:20: Quote from: E3E on Fri, 30 October 2015, 20:54:03
In my opinion, I agree with JD. Once you get used to the HHKB layout and use the 1.5u backspace, it's hard to break the habit. I find myself hitting '|\' on my Octagon after getting used to typing on my Infinity with its HHKB layout. It's very natural and comfortable to use in my opinion. The major downside is key cap incompatibity for Cherry MX.

The 1u backspace is something I've used with some old Alps boards. Despite how short it is and awkward in appearance it might be, I think that since it's in the same location as the standard 2u ANSI backspace, it's not hard at all to get used to. I used it with no problems, but I do think that it is the worst looking of all aesthetically.

Anyway, my wrist is starting to hurt just below the thumb. Haven't felt this before, but I should probably stop typing for now. :P

I agree with you, if a person types with 10 fingers, likely using the home-row, the 1.5u makes a lot of sense

However I'm sticking to my crude typing method where I press alphas with only 2 index fingers, with this method, the 2u is much more comfortable, also I use the 1.5u \| heavily, so it makes sense overall

Also, funnily, the reason I didn't pursue home-row typing was wrist pains, when you cram 2 hands together, the wrists start to ache, this crude 2 finger typing method is very comfortable (2 fingers for the alphas, other fingers for the modifiers, space etc.)
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 04 November 2015, 08:34:43: Hmmm.... I'd go with option 1... Or sell the Infinity and buy a GON PCB + plate and populate it with Zealios.
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: KHAANNN on Wed, 04 November 2015, 09:20:56: Quote from: Oobly on Wed, 04 November 2015, 08:34:43
Hmmm.... I'd go with option 1... Or sell the Infinity and buy a GON PCB + plate and populate it with Zealios.

That's more or less what I ended up doing :)
Title: Re: 1U or 1.5U Backspace Dilemma
Post by: agong8664 on Thu, 05 November 2015, 21:47:36: I change to 1.5u BS in less than one week. Though I don't need to move my hands, my little finger get tired after some intense typing.
I also tried 1u BS, for me I have to move my hands and locate my ring finger to press it. It's less efficiency for me.
(My hands are really small)