Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 27 April 2015, 20:19:21
Police Brutality
vs
Gangbangn' Drug dealer
respectively symbolic of White-Oppression upon the Black Underclass
Post by: sethk_ on Mon, 27 April 2015, 20:48:20
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 27 April 2015, 20:59:46
This is like Ferguson. People are angry, and the only logical thing to do is break out in riots, and then get angry when the police try to stop an illegal thing...
Well in both cases, it's about "more" than the Instigating event itself..
It's about the "general and highly-prevalent" injustice that has come from racism.. which has continues through our modern era.
Certainly an eye for an eye is the worst way to reciprocate.
But conventional game-theory does indicate that the Least reasonable party at play will come off with a larger piece of the pie..
Post by: sethk_ on Mon, 27 April 2015, 21:09:45
As awful as it sounds, they are only making it worse for themselves. If you are going to act out like this when a black person gets killed unfairly, and thousands riot, yes, there are still racist cops that should not be handling a gun, but if I were a police officer, I would be on edge regardless. In some cases, the killings were justified, but in this case it wasn't.This is like Ferguson. People are angry, and the only logical thing to do is break out in riots, and then get angry when the police try to stop an illegal thing...
Well in both cases, it's about "more" than the Instigating event itself..
It's about the "general and highly-prevalent" injustice that has come from racism.. which has continues through our modern era.
Certainly an eye for an eye is the worst way to reciprocate.
But conventional game-theory does indicate that the Least reasonable party at play will come off with a larger piece of the pie..
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Mon, 27 April 2015, 21:17:28
Post by: noisyturtle on Mon, 27 April 2015, 21:29:02
Post by: R1N3 on Mon, 27 April 2015, 21:51:57
Baltimore is a notorious ****hole. Cops in notorious ****holes give literally no ****s about human life because the human life in these notorious ****holes give no ****s about them. There will never be a sense of community between police and citizens in notorious ****holes like Baltimore. There's a quota to meet and police are farming citizens for $$$ and citizens are drug farming each other for $$$.
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Mon, 27 April 2015, 22:08:32
Post by: noisyturtle on Tue, 28 April 2015, 00:30:56
Seconded that Baltimore is a ****hole. I've lived, and visited, many major cities around the US. Baltimore is second on my list of worthless piece of trash towns, just below Camden.
That's simply untrue, Baltimore is a unique and beautiful city that is obviously too full of culture and personality to ever have an effect of some sheltered suburban half-racist heathen from the south. Just because you guys have watched The Wire doesn't make you in any way a critic of one of the East Coasts most multi-faceted cities. Baltimore is like the Portland of the East Coast.
Post by: R1N3 on Tue, 28 April 2015, 00:34:41
I legit loldSeconded that Baltimore is a ****hole. I've lived, and visited, many major cities around the US. Baltimore is second on my list of worthless piece of trash towns, just below Camden.
That's simply untrue, Baltimore is a unique and beautiful city that is obviously too full of culture and personality to ever have an effect of some sheltered suburban half-racist heathen from the south. Just because you guys have watched The Wire doesn't make you in any way a critic of one of the East Coasts most multi-faceted cities. Baltimore is like the Portland of the East Coast.
Post by: Novus on Tue, 28 April 2015, 02:03:16
Seconded that Baltimore is a ****hole. I've lived, and visited, many major cities around the US. Baltimore is second on my list of worthless piece of trash towns, just below Camden.
That's simply untrue, Baltimore is a unique and beautiful city that is obviously too full of culture and personality to ever have an effect of some sheltered suburban half-racist heathen from the south. Just because you guys have watched The Wire doesn't make you in any way a critic of one of the East Coasts most multi-faceted cities. Baltimore is like the Portland of the East Coast.
Thanks for your input
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 28 April 2015, 06:39:51
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 06:44:22
Seconded that Baltimore is a ****hole. I've lived, and visited, many major cities around the US. Baltimore is second on my list of worthless piece of trash towns, just below Camden.
That's simply untrue, Baltimore is a unique and beautiful city that is obviously too full of culture and personality to ever have an effect of some sheltered suburban half-racist heathen from the south. Just because you guys have watched The Wire doesn't make you in any way a critic of one of the East Coasts most multi-faceted cities. Baltimore is like the Portland of the East Coast.
The Wire is more a critic of America than Baltimore specifically. And as someone who has watched it 4-5 times all the way through I consider myself a more than qualified critic of America, given the 'qualifications' of American news reporters...
:D
Post by: katushkin on Tue, 28 April 2015, 07:31:40
Freddie Gray, a piece of **** drug dealer, getting his back broken by piece of **** cops is just a symptom of the actual cancer eating away at urban America.
Baltimore is a notorious ****hole. Cops in notorious ****holes give literally no ****s about human life because the human life in these notorious ****holes give no ****s about them. There will never be a sense of community between police and citizens in notorious ****holes like Baltimore. There's a quota to meet and police are farming citizens for $$$ and citizens are drug farming each other for $$$.
This is pretty much the most neutral yet truthful comment about the situation I have heard. The fact that this has been going on for decades widely eludes people, and they only notice it when an innocent person gets caught up in it. Violence targeted at law enforcement is not caused by police brutality, and visa versa. It happens. You can't tell either parties to stop doing it, because both will point fingers and say the other one started it first.
It's a ****ty situation with potentially no out.
Post by: billnye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 07:34:34
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 28 April 2015, 07:42:16
Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
In our American oligarchy, the police serve and protect the "wealthy ruling class"
They're symbolic of the whip, in the hands of our masters.
Anyone who believes we actually have capitalism and democracy is wholly naive.
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 28 April 2015, 07:58:51
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:00:05
Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
quick! send in the
(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
Post by: billnye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:05:22
Oh no! The police are protecting themselves from violent rioters who have already injured multiple other officers!Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
quick! send in theArmyPolice!Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:09:01
Oh no! The police are protecting themselves from violent rioters who have already injured multiple other officers!Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
quick! send in theArmyPolice!Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
wait police officers have been injured?!!?!!?!
BRING IN THE POLICE TANKS
Post by: azhdar on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:09:31
Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
In our American oligarchy, the police serve and protect the "wealthy ruling class"
They're symbolic of the whip, in the hands of our masters.
Anyone who believes we actually have capitalism and democracy is wholly naive.
We have this man, capitalism: I get to buy thing from all over the world in order to destroy local economy isn't that great?
Democracy: every few years I get to chose which greedy politicans get to steal my money, I couldn't be happier.
I ain't naive man, I trully believe in the system.
/s
Post by: billnye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:12:47
Socialist Europeans at it again :eek:Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
In our American oligarchy, the police serve and protect the "wealthy ruling class"
They're symbolic of the whip, in the hands of our masters.
Anyone who believes we actually have capitalism and democracy is wholly naive.
We have this man, capitalism: I get to buy thing from all over the world in order to destroy local economy isn't that great?
Democracy: every few years I get to chose which greedy politicans get to steal my money, I couldn't be happier.
I ain't naive man, I trully believe in the system.
/s
Post by: azhdar on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:15:56
no National Socialism in Europe.Socialist Europeans at it again :eek:Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
In our American oligarchy, the police serve and protect the "wealthy ruling class"
They're symbolic of the whip, in the hands of our masters.
Anyone who believes we actually have capitalism and democracy is wholly naive.
We have this man, capitalism: I get to buy thing from all over the world in order to destroy local economy isn't that great?
Democracy: every few years I get to chose which greedy politicans get to steal my money, I couldn't be happier.
I ain't naive man, I trully believe in the system.
/s
Wait a second ...
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:17:36
Socialist Europeans at it again :eek:Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
In our American oligarchy, the police serve and protect the "wealthy ruling class"
They're symbolic of the whip, in the hands of our masters.
Anyone who believes we actually have capitalism and democracy is wholly naive.
We have this man, capitalism: I get to buy thing from all over the world in order to destroy local economy isn't that great?
Democracy: every few years I get to chose which greedy politicans get to steal my money, I couldn't be happier.
I ain't naive man, I trully believe in the system.
/s
More like COMMUNIST!
Quick send in the
(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
Post by: effectiveduck on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:18:10
How does a bullet proof vest protect an officer from a rock or a Molotov? It doesn't, riot gear and more specifically, a shield, does, it's an escalation of force, and it's the same thing that happens all the time. The militarization of the American police force is ridiculous, it's not a war zone.Oh no! The police are protecting themselves from violent rioters who have already injured multiple other officers!Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
quick! send in theArmyPolice!Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
In my opinion the people of Baltimore and the rest America have a right to be pissed off, and I will agree with you that rioting doesn't help they're situation but it isn't the issue, it's the result of people frustration with the police force. The issue is the leap to lethal force and police aggression that has resulted in too many lives lost for no reason, most if not all of them being black, which isn't nothing, it shows the systematic racism within the police force. That's what this is about, there are numerous statistics that show that people of colour are stopped by police way more than Caucasian's, yet the number of people convicted is basically the same. It's about the systematic racism.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:19:27
Socialist Europeans at it again :eek:Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
In our American oligarchy, the police serve and protect the "wealthy ruling class"
They're symbolic of the whip, in the hands of our masters.
Anyone who believes we actually have capitalism and democracy is wholly naive.
We have this man, capitalism: I get to buy thing from all over the world in order to destroy local economy isn't that great?
Democracy: every few years I get to chose which greedy politicans get to steal my money, I couldn't be happier.
I ain't naive man, I trully believe in the system.
/s
Azhdar is not socialist, he is part of the middle-class whose sole aspiration is to one day become one of the wealthy exploiters. haahaha...
Nothing wrong with being human, but let's call it what it is.. (http://textemoticons.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/073.gif)
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:21:31
How does a bullet proof vest protect an officer from a rock or a Molotov? It doesn't, riot gear and more specifically, a shield, does, it's an escalation of force, and it's the same thing that happens all the time. The militarization of the American police force is ridiculous, it's not a war zone.Oh no! The police are protecting themselves from violent rioters who have already injured multiple other officers!Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
quick! send in theArmyPolice!Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
In my opinion the people of Baltimore and the rest America have a right to be pissed off, and I will agree with you that rioting doesn't help they're situation but it isn't the issue, it's the result of people frustration with the police force. The issue is the leap to lethal force and police aggression that has resulted in too many lives lost for no reason, most if not all of them being black, which isn't nothing, it shows the systematic racism within the police force. That's what this is about, there are numerous statistics that show that people of colour are stopped by police way more than Caucasian's, yet the number of people convicted is basically the same. It's about the systematic racism.
pretty sure that last parts not true
Post by: billnye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:25:20
How do the police know that one of the rioters doesn't have a gun? And all active-duty police officers I have seen are wearing a vest anyway, so the only real difference I see here is that these police have assualt weapons.How does a bullet proof vest protect an officer from a rock or a Molotov? It doesn't, riot gear and more specifically, a shield, does, it's an escalation of force, and it's the same thing that happens all the time. The militarization of the American police force is ridiculous, it's not a war zone.Oh no! The police are protecting themselves from violent rioters who have already injured multiple other officers!Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
quick! send in theArmyPolice!Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
In my opinion the people of Baltimore and the rest America have a right to be pissed off, and I will agree with you that rioting doesn't help they're situation but it isn't the issue, it's the result of people frustration with the police force. The issue is the leap to lethal force and police aggression that has resulted in too many lives lost for no reason, most if not all of them being black, which isn't nothing, it shows the systematic racism within the police force. That's what this is about, there are numerous statistics that show that people of colour are stopped by police way more than Caucasian's, yet the number of people convicted is basically the same. It's about the systematic racism.
Black people commit the most violent crime in America, therefore they are the most common race to be in altercations with the police. No one focuses on "How can we repair these communities to stop the spread of crime?", it's "Oh no the police are racist! They only kill black people!".
And your last fact is not true, black people commit and are convicted of far more crime than any other race in the US. http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0008.htm
Post by: effectiveduck on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:27:06
How does a bullet proof vest protect an officer from a rock or a Molotov? It doesn't, riot gear and more specifically, a shield, does, it's an escalation of force, and it's the same thing that happens all the time. The militarization of the American police force is ridiculous, it's not a war zone.Oh no! The police are protecting themselves from violent rioters who have already injured multiple other officers!Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
quick! send in theArmyPolice!Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
In my opinion the people of Baltimore and the rest America have a right to be pissed off, and I will agree with you that rioting doesn't help they're situation but it isn't the issue, it's the result of people frustration with the police force. The issue is the leap to lethal force and police aggression that has resulted in too many lives lost for no reason, most if not all of them being black, which isn't nothing, it shows the systematic racism within the police force. That's what this is about, there are numerous statistics that show that people of colour are stopped by police way more than Caucasian's, yet the number of people convicted is basically the same. It's about the systematic racism.
pretty sure that last parts not true
https://ferguson-racial-profiling-data.silk.co/
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:28:53
How do the police know that one of the rioters doesn't have a gun? And all active-duty police officers I have seen are wearing a vest anyway, so the only real difference I see here is that these police have assualt weapons.How does a bullet proof vest protect an officer from a rock or a Molotov? It doesn't, riot gear and more specifically, a shield, does, it's an escalation of force, and it's the same thing that happens all the time. The militarization of the American police force is ridiculous, it's not a war zone.Oh no! The police are protecting themselves from violent rioters who have already injured multiple other officers!Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
quick! send in theArmyPolice!Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
In my opinion the people of Baltimore and the rest America have a right to be pissed off, and I will agree with you that rioting doesn't help they're situation but it isn't the issue, it's the result of people frustration with the police force. The issue is the leap to lethal force and police aggression that has resulted in too many lives lost for no reason, most if not all of them being black, which isn't nothing, it shows the systematic racism within the police force. That's what this is about, there are numerous statistics that show that people of colour are stopped by police way more than Caucasian's, yet the number of people convicted is basically the same. It's about the systematic racism.
Black people commit the most violent crime in America, therefore they are the most common race to be in altercations with the police. No one focuses on "How can we repair these communities to stop the spread of crime?", it's "Oh no the police are racist! They only kill black people!".
And your last fact is not true, black people commit and are convicted of far more crime than any other race in the US. http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0008.htm
They commit crimes because they are poor, and the payoff to crime is equivalent OR higher than their immediate other income opportunities..
This has nothing to do with Merely BEING BLACK...
White people born into these neighborhoods commit the same crimes..
Economic inequality, Which BEGAN in the slave era is still happening today..
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:32:07
How does a bullet proof vest protect an officer from a rock or a Molotov? It doesn't, riot gear and more specifically, a shield, does, it's an escalation of force, and it's the same thing that happens all the time. The militarization of the American police force is ridiculous, it's not a war zone.Oh no! The police are protecting themselves from violent rioters who have already injured multiple other officers!Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
quick! send in theArmyPolice!Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
In my opinion the people of Baltimore and the rest America have a right to be pissed off, and I will agree with you that rioting doesn't help they're situation but it isn't the issue, it's the result of people frustration with the police force. The issue is the leap to lethal force and police aggression that has resulted in too many lives lost for no reason, most if not all of them being black, which isn't nothing, it shows the systematic racism within the police force. That's what this is about, there are numerous statistics that show that people of colour are stopped by police way more than Caucasian's, yet the number of people convicted is basically the same. It's about the systematic racism.
pretty sure that last parts not true
https://ferguson-racial-profiling-data.silk.co/
Bill beat me too it, there was also an epic post on reddit linking FBI database info about how basically regardless of economic background black people commit more crime and more violent crime than any other race in America despite being a minority.
But I agree with you about the insane militarisation of the american police force. If they need to go to such extreme levels in order to defend them selfs from the public, don't you think it's time they started limiting gun access and exerting some kind of control on the sale of weapons....
Post by: billnye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:34:08
Can't tell if tp4 post or serious... :))
Economic inequality, Which BEGAN in the slave era is still happening today..
Post by: hwood34 on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:43:47
try telling that to every hick and cop baiting douche who wants to be able to open carry his AR 15 around town...How does a bullet proof vest protect an officer from a rock or a Molotov? It doesn't, riot gear and more specifically, a shield, does, it's an escalation of force, and it's the same thing that happens all the time. The militarization of the American police force is ridiculous, it's not a war zone.Oh no! The police are protecting themselves from violent rioters who have already injured multiple other officers!Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
quick! send in theArmyPolice!Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
In my opinion the people of Baltimore and the rest America have a right to be pissed off, and I will agree with you that rioting doesn't help they're situation but it isn't the issue, it's the result of people frustration with the police force. The issue is the leap to lethal force and police aggression that has resulted in too many lives lost for no reason, most if not all of them being black, which isn't nothing, it shows the systematic racism within the police force. That's what this is about, there are numerous statistics that show that people of colour are stopped by police way more than Caucasian's, yet the number of people convicted is basically the same. It's about the systematic racism.
pretty sure that last parts not true
https://ferguson-racial-profiling-data.silk.co/
Bill beat me too it, there was also an epic post on reddit linking FBI database info about how basically regardless of economic background black people commit more crime and more violent crime than any other race in America despite being a minority.
But I agree with you about the insane militarisation of the american police force. If they need to go to such extreme levels in order to defend them selfs from the public, don't you think it's time they started limiting gun access and exerting some kind of control on the sale of weapons....
But it's for protection, right?
Post by: billnye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:45:07
>using a small minority to describe the whole population of gun ownerstry telling that to every hick and cop baiting douche who wants to be able to open carry his AR 15 around town...How does a bullet proof vest protect an officer from a rock or a Molotov? It doesn't, riot gear and more specifically, a shield, does, it's an escalation of force, and it's the same thing that happens all the time. The militarization of the American police force is ridiculous, it's not a war zone.Oh no! The police are protecting themselves from violent rioters who have already injured multiple other officers!Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
quick! send in theArmyPolice!Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
In my opinion the people of Baltimore and the rest America have a right to be pissed off, and I will agree with you that rioting doesn't help they're situation but it isn't the issue, it's the result of people frustration with the police force. The issue is the leap to lethal force and police aggression that has resulted in too many lives lost for no reason, most if not all of them being black, which isn't nothing, it shows the systematic racism within the police force. That's what this is about, there are numerous statistics that show that people of colour are stopped by police way more than Caucasian's, yet the number of people convicted is basically the same. It's about the systematic racism.
pretty sure that last parts not true
https://ferguson-racial-profiling-data.silk.co/
Bill beat me too it, there was also an epic post on reddit linking FBI database info about how basically regardless of economic background black people commit more crime and more violent crime than any other race in America despite being a minority.
But I agree with you about the insane militarisation of the american police force. If they need to go to such extreme levels in order to defend them selfs from the public, don't you think it's time they started limiting gun access and exerting some kind of control on the sale of weapons....
But it's for protection, right?
najs
Post by: hwood34 on Tue, 28 April 2015, 08:47:03
The majority of gun owners wouldn't even be affected by tighter gun control, but somehow a vocal minority manages to put down every attempt to regulate>using a small minority to describe the whole population of gun ownerstry telling that to every hick and cop baiting douche who wants to be able to open carry his AR 15 around town...How does a bullet proof vest protect an officer from a rock or a Molotov? It doesn't, riot gear and more specifically, a shield, does, it's an escalation of force, and it's the same thing that happens all the time. The militarization of the American police force is ridiculous, it's not a war zone.Oh no! The police are protecting themselves from violent rioters who have already injured multiple other officers!Hurr durr lemme protest police violence by looting stores and burning stuff!!
quick! send in theArmyPolice!Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ApTf2OF.jpg)
In my opinion the people of Baltimore and the rest America have a right to be pissed off, and I will agree with you that rioting doesn't help they're situation but it isn't the issue, it's the result of people frustration with the police force. The issue is the leap to lethal force and police aggression that has resulted in too many lives lost for no reason, most if not all of them being black, which isn't nothing, it shows the systematic racism within the police force. That's what this is about, there are numerous statistics that show that people of colour are stopped by police way more than Caucasian's, yet the number of people convicted is basically the same. It's about the systematic racism.
pretty sure that last parts not true
https://ferguson-racial-profiling-data.silk.co/
Bill beat me too it, there was also an epic post on reddit linking FBI database info about how basically regardless of economic background black people commit more crime and more violent crime than any other race in America despite being a minority.
But I agree with you about the insane militarisation of the american police force. If they need to go to such extreme levels in order to defend them selfs from the public, don't you think it's time they started limiting gun access and exerting some kind of control on the sale of weapons....
But it's for protection, right?
najs
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:05:56
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:10:00
And here comes the closest racists of Geekhack.
Quick! get the...
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:10:25
And here comes the closest racists of Geekhack.
hahahahahahahaha...
Yea, from reading the posts thus far, there seems to be MANY.. more than I would've thought.
Post by: ttzhou on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:16:03
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part where
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:18:17
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
try telling that to the Scots!
Post by: billnye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:19:35
As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes.Well said sir.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part where bill says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
However, I did not say "basically" that was effectiveduck.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:21:34
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
try telling that to the Scots!
Karma bdguy karma.. it's persists longer than ever in our forget-free digital age.
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:26:17
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
try telling that to the Scots!
Karma bdguy karma.. it's persists longer than ever in our forget-free digital age.
What?
(to get off topic) the only reason Scotland was part of the UK was because they asked us to let them in because there economy had gone to ****, we saved them and brought them into the UK. All we get in return is a tax hole, less rights over how our country (a country that is many many times the pop size of scoland) is run and on top of that get endless **** about how awful we are. Leading upto the vote I wanted Scotland to be in the uk b/c we are all adults and should be able to play nicely, now though they have extra power over laws and rules which do not effect them, on the basis of what, **** the english?
Post by: azhdar on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:27:43
As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes."THEY" have nothing to gain from all of us getting along. They generate wars and start riots always the same way, by hiring a few mercenaries that make a mess and people dumbly following it. It has been proven multiples time.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part where bill says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
The one in power gain more from us fighting each other (selling weapon and other security related items, passing laws ...).
Wars, riots, aswell as all other major events (whether it is created or just happened) are just a distraction for the mass while pigs feed themselves.
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:28:39
As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes."THEY" have nothing to gain from all of us getting along. They generate wars and start riots always the same way, by hiring a few mercenaries that make a mess and people dumbly following it. It has been proven multiples time.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part where bill says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
The one in power gain more from us fighting each other (selling weapon and other security related items, passing laws ...).
Wars, riots, aswell as all other major events (whether it is created or just happened) are just a distraction for the mass while pigs feed themselves.
(http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060328225954/metalgear/images/d/d3/ThePatriots.JPG)
Post by: effectiveduck on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:36:05
I should have been more clear, it was based on a few studies I'd read as well as John Oliver' segment on Ferguson(which I highly recommend as it's on point and hilarious). Here in Australia we have similar issues with our indigenous population, the main reason it's never talked about is because most people don't care and I feel like that was the case in the states until people started to sit up and pay attention.As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes.Well said sir.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part where bill says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
However, I did not say "basically" that was effectiveduck.
Post by: ttzhou on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:37:07
As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes."THEY" have nothing to gain from all of us getting along. They generate wars and start riots always the same way, by hiring a few mercenaries that make a mess and people dumbly following it. It has been proven multiples time.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part where bill says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
The one in power gain more from us fighting each other (selling weapon and other security related items, passing laws ...).
Wars, riots, aswell as all other major events (whether it is created or just happened) are just a distraction for the mass while pigs feed themselves.
Who is "they"? Where is your proof? This sounds so much like something pulled from some book.
Post by: ttzhou on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:37:58
As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes.Well said sir.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part where bill says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
However, I did not say "basically" that was effectiveduck.
Apologies, I am very bad at noting locations of posts in a forums. Will edit accordingly! :)
Post by: azhdar on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:48:01
As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes."THEY" have nothing to gain from all of us getting along. They generate wars and start riots always the same way, by hiring a few mercenaries that make a mess and people dumbly following it. It has been proven multiples time.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part where bill says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
The one in power gain more from us fighting each other (selling weapon and other security related items, passing laws ...).
Wars, riots, aswell as all other major events (whether it is created or just happened) are just a distraction for the mass while pigs feed themselves.
Who is "they"? Where is your proof? This sounds so much like something pulled from some book.
Politics, Corporations,the one that would sell their own mother for profit. So much proof were found, what striked me the most recently was when France went to war against Islamics in Mali. After the army invested camps they found french paperworks in the huts. This paperwork was payment from the Pôle Emploi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%B4le_emploi), our militaries where fighting against french mercenaries payed by the same government. They just had a different disguise and had to rememeber to yell "allah hakbar" everytime they met a camera.
Could link those things to you but my sources are from french websites. So much more lies on Irak, Syria ... Depressing.
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:54:09
As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes."THEY" have nothing to gain from all of us getting along. They generate wars and start riots always the same way, by hiring a few mercenaries that make a mess and people dumbly following it. It has been proven multiples time.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part where bill says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
The one in power gain more from us fighting each other (selling weapon and other security related items, passing laws ...).
Wars, riots, aswell as all other major events (whether it is created or just happened) are just a distraction for the mass while pigs feed themselves.
Who is "they"? Where is your proof? This sounds so much like something pulled from some book.
Politics, Corporations,the one that would sell their own mother for profit. So much proof were found, what striked me the most recently was when France went to war against Islamics in Mali. After the army invested camps they found french paperworks in the huts. This paperwork was payment from the P�le Emploi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%B4le_emploi), our militaries where fighting against french mercenaries payed by the same government. They just had a different disguise and had to rememeber to yell "allah hakbar" everytime they met a camera.
Could link those things to you but my sources are from french websites. So much more lies on Irak, Syria ... Depressing.
MGS 4
Post by: demik on Tue, 28 April 2015, 10:09:31
And here comes the closest racists of Geekhack.
At least they mark themselves. Easier to ignore.
Post by: ttzhou on Tue, 28 April 2015, 10:10:32
As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes."THEY" have nothing to gain from all of us getting along. They generate wars and start riots always the same way, by hiring a few mercenaries that make a mess and people dumbly following it. It has been proven multiples time.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part where bill says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
The one in power gain more from us fighting each other (selling weapon and other security related items, passing laws ...).
Wars, riots, aswell as all other major events (whether it is created or just happened) are just a distraction for the mass while pigs feed themselves.
Who is "they"? Where is your proof? This sounds so much like something pulled from some book.
Politics, Corporations,the one that would sell their own mother for profit. So much proof were found, what striked me the most recently was when France went to war against Islamics in Mali. After the army invested camps they found french paperworks in the huts. This paperwork was payment from the Pôle Emploi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%B4le_emploi), our militaries where fighting against french mercenaries payed by the same government. They just had a different disguise and had to rememeber to yell "allah hakbar" everytime they met a camera.
Could link those things to you but my sources are from french websites. So much more lies on Irak, Syria ... Depressing.
While I don't disagree with your proof, I think we are discussing different topics.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 28 April 2015, 10:13:21
And here comes the closest racists of Geekhack.
At least they mark themselves. Easier to ignore.
Hahahahha
I think biologically, there must be some element to "promote" oneself..
So fundamentally, people are always "racist" to some degree..
The trouble comes, when that self-preservation Conflicts with the greater good of the "species" as a whole.
For example.. white women reject any other races on dating sites...
But if you think about it, blacks have more than demonstrated their athletic superiority.
The ideal combination is a supportive family structure (more characteristic of whites) + the physical superiority of the blacks.
YET, because the average white female on a dating site is predominantly NOT THINKING about "the human species".. they choose their own genetic lineage. <--- this is in conflict with producing the strongest smartest humans.
Post by: demik on Tue, 28 April 2015, 10:16:12
I think people are prejudice by nature. We can't help judge based on stereotypes. We are all guilty of it. It's when you try to justify your views is when you step over the I'm racist line.
Anyway, you seem to understand the problem here. Sadly not many will see it due to a couple of knuckleheads using these marches to act like ****s.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 28 April 2015, 10:18:43
Is prejudice considered racist?
I think people are prejudice by nature. We can't help judge based on stereotypes. We are all guilty of it. It's when you try to justify your views is when you step over the I'm racist line.
Anyway, you seem to understand the problem here. Sadly not many will see it due to a couple of knuckleheads using these marches to act like ****s.
you're taking this argument towards "semantics" and away from the issue.
Everyone knows what you're talking about, if we loosen up on the terms. hahahaha
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 10:19:35
Is prejudice considered racist?
I think people are prejudice by nature. We can't help judge based on stereotypes. We are all guilty of it. It's when you try to justify your views is when you step over the I'm racist line.
Humans like things to be organised and broken up into sections, be it information, games, dvds or people. I think Prejudice is something that comes from a lack off or poor education/background. I don't think racism or prejudice is naturally occurring, small children don't do it naturally and small children can be very harsh because they have yet to work out how to be nice to people and how things affect others as they are still growing.
Post by: ttzhou on Tue, 28 April 2015, 10:24:04
For example.. white women reject any other races on dating sites...
But if you think about it, blacks have more than demonstrated their athletic superiority.
The ideal combination is a supportive family structure (more characteristic of whites) + the physical superiority of the blacks.
YET, because the average white female on a dating site is predominantly NOT THINKING about "the human species".. they choose their own genetic lineage. <--- this is in conflict with producing the strongest smartest humans.
Define athletic superiority. Yes, in track and field and sports requiring explosive, fast twitch fibers, yes. But what about soccer, or wrestling, or powerlifting, or hockey, or swimming? Are these any less athletic? These have a much wider range of ethnicities/races at the higher levels. I argue that once you make the sport not about a single action (running, jumping, etc.) and make it into a much more complex, realistic endeavour, those innate advantages associated to race disappear, and it becomes more about training.
I would not say people are prejudiced by nature. Babies are often receptive to any race. It is instead a function of familial upbringing and education/intelligence.
It's so easy to blame these things on "human nature". But we are better than that. We should strive to analyze these problems logically and not succumb to our so called prejudices. We should judge people on what they *can* change, not what they can't.
Post by: saturnotaku on Tue, 28 April 2015, 11:13:20
The majority of gun owners wouldn't even be affected by tighter gun control, but somehow a vocal minority manages to put down every attempt to regulate
'Splain please (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/24/chicago-crime-rate-drops-as-concealed-carry-gun-pe/?page=all)
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 11:17:57
The majority of gun owners wouldn't even be affected by tighter gun control, but somehow a vocal minority manages to put down every attempt to regulate
'Splain please (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/24/chicago-crime-rate-drops-as-concealed-carry-gun-pe/?page=all)
what the **** is that website??! I had to scroll down a bunch just to find the content and then to read it i had to fill in a survey?!
Post by: saturnotaku on Tue, 28 April 2015, 11:19:24
what the **** is that website??! I had to scroll down a bunch just to find the content and then to read it i had to fill in a survey?!
Are you not using an adblocker?
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 11:22:44
what the **** is that website??! I had to scroll down a bunch just to find the content and then to read it i had to fill in a survey?!
Are you not using an adblocker?
not on a works pc
Post by: Tiramisuu on Tue, 28 April 2015, 11:46:33
The reason that Americans claim a right to bear arms is to protect themselves from an oppressive regime.
It is pretty obvious that America is an oppressive regime both externally and internally. To me it appears that the Americans with the balls to react to oppression are the gang bangers and the poor. The politically correct on the Internet will give up their rights at any threat.
Militias should be protecting people from the army and the police.
Post by: hwood34 on Tue, 28 April 2015, 11:53:27
At this point I'm legitimately surprised when someone complains about adswhat the **** is that website??! I had to scroll down a bunch just to find the content and then to read it i had to fill in a survey?!
Are you not using an adblocker?
Post by: heedpantsnow on Tue, 28 April 2015, 12:11:45
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 28 April 2015, 12:13:16
As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part wherebilleffectiveduck (sorry billnye, my bad!) says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
You know somebody is white when they use their black friends as reference material for discussions on race. Or at least not black.
The root of these issues is systematic. One thing is all related to another. Poverty, schools, jobs, the economy, parenting, race, community, individual decision making influenced by cultural trends, all these things are interconnected and related to produce outcomes.
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 12:21:52
At this point I'm legitimately surprised when someone complains about adswhat the **** is that website??! I had to scroll down a bunch just to find the content and then to read it i had to fill in a survey?!
Are you not using an adblocker?
Ads are one thing, but having to fill out some survey just to see the news article is something I've never seen before
Post by: hwood34 on Tue, 28 April 2015, 12:22:57
I've actually started to see those pop up a little bit more oftenAt this point I'm legitimately surprised when someone complains about adswhat the **** is that website??! I had to scroll down a bunch just to find the content and then to read it i had to fill in a survey?!
Are you not using an adblocker?
Ads are one thing, but having to fill out some survey just to see the news article is something I've never seen before
Post by: ttzhou on Tue, 28 April 2015, 12:30:24
As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part wherebilleffectiveduck (sorry billnye, my bad!) says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
You know somebody is white when they use their black friends as reference material for discussions on race. Or at least not black.
The root of these issues is systematic. One thing is all related to another. Poverty, schools, jobs, the economy, parenting, race, community, individual decision making influenced by cultural trends, all these things are interconnected and related to produce outcomes.
What's your point? What does my ethnicity have to do with this? You just repeated the exact same thing I said, except with a snarky and pointless comment.
Note that I mentioned it is not race, it is linked to poverty, and also familial upbringing, and other factors, so you're just regurgitating what I said. My comment on my black friends was meant to address the fact that it is not race that influences your actions, but environment and family values.
Post by: tbc on Tue, 28 April 2015, 12:40:31
As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part wherebilleffectiveduck (sorry billnye, my bad!) says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
You know somebody is white when they use their black friends as reference material for discussions on race. Or at least not black.
The root of these issues is systematic. One thing is all related to another. Poverty, schools, jobs, the economy, parenting, race, community, individual decision making influenced by cultural trends, all these things are interconnected and related to produce outcomes.
What's your point? What does my ethnicity have to do with this? You just repeated the exact same thing I said, except with a snarky and pointless comment.
Note that I mentioned it is not race, it is linked to poverty, and also familial upbringing, and other factors, so you're just regurgitating what I said. My comment on my black friends was meant to address the fact that it is not race that influences your actions, but environment and family values.
americans just tend to have a lot of racial baggage. makes things rather silly. eg baltimore, ferguson
Post by: berserkfan on Tue, 28 April 2015, 12:43:40
You know somebody is white when they use their black friends as reference material for discussions on race. Or at least not black.
The root of these issues is systematic. One thing is all related to another. Poverty, schools, jobs, the economy, parenting, race, community, individual decision making influenced by cultural trends, all these things are interconnected and related to produce outcomes.
I wanna laugh when I see this. ttzhou is neither white, nor born in the Americas.
Because of the diversity of geekhack we have very different approaches to these social issues. I would have sanctioned live ammunition and head shots against the rioters. But I would also have fired the entire police department, confiscated everyone's pension and barred them from future employment with the government if they did not stop covering up for each other.
Any solution to a severe problem needs to be suitably radical as well. If you don't want live ammo and head shots, then maybe you need a very thorough and far reaching program of community outreach and communication between the police and residents, plus much more transparent and accountable police actions such as compulsory use of body cameras at all times and presumption of guilt if a policeman fails to keep his camera on at all times.
If you want a compromise milquetoast solution, it won't cure the deep underlying problems ranging from endemic crime in black communities to ingrained racism in the police force.
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 28 April 2015, 14:31:28
You know somebody is white when they use their black friends as reference material for discussions on race. Or at least not black.
The root of these issues is systematic. One thing is all related to another. Poverty, schools, jobs, the economy, parenting, race, community, individual decision making influenced by cultural trends, all these things are interconnected and related to produce outcomes.
I wanna laugh when I see this. ttzhou is neither white, nor born in the Americas.
Because of the diversity of geekhack we have very different approaches to these social issues. I would have sanctioned live ammunition and head shots against the rioters. But I would also have fired the entire police department, confiscated everyone's pension and barred them from future employment with the government if they did not stop covering up for each other.
Any solution to a severe problem needs to be suitably radical as well. If you don't want live ammo and head shots, then maybe you need a very thorough and far reaching program of community outreach and communication between the police and residents, plus much more transparent and accountable police actions such as compulsory use of body cameras at all times and presumption of guilt if a policeman fails to keep his camera on at all times.
If you want a compromise milquetoast solution, it won't cure the deep underlying problems ranging from endemic crime in black communities to ingrained racism in the police force.
You're essentially saying, "kill everybody" let's nuke ourselves, so there are no problems, therefore no solution is necessary..
Hahahahha
This does work btw.. IF and ONLY IF you're god.. he's the only guy with the ability to pull something like this off.
Post by: demik on Tue, 28 April 2015, 15:46:27
Your other 98% of cops are equally bad by keeping their mouth shut. See that's part of the problem, the thin blue line police follow. Everybody says it's a few bad apples yet the rest do nothing about it. Police departments need a serious ****ing overhaul.As an outsider in a country where this issue is nowhere near as rampant, with many black friends myself, I think the problem is way too complicated to just be throwing around absolutes.
1. Yes, I have read that black people on average statistically commit more crimes in America, though I'm interested about the part wherebilleffectiveduck (sorry billnye, my bad!) says "*basically* regardless of economic background". In particular, it's the "basically" modifier that intrigues me - can you make this more precise?
2. *WHY* is this the case? Is it a systemic issue? Culture? Media? Family environment? How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities...
Anyway, I'm inclined to lean towards tp4 on this. I really think a big part of the crime element is simply economic inequality. I have known poor white people who commit violent crime, because they don't know any other way. On the other hand, I know lots of super poor Asian immigrants who are still very law abiding and raise their kids right. Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count.
Most of my black friends come from educated backgrounds and good family environments and they would never act like these rioting trash heaps. However, they do recognize that in some cases, yes, the police do act unfairly towards minorities, and I think that is a justified assertion. Do I think all cops are bad? No, maybe 1% fit the bill of bad cop, and another 1% have really, really poor decision making skills (like the SC shooting). I think 98% of police officers are good people who just want to go home to their families. But it's hard to do this when you are in a poverty stricken area where people have been conditioned to hate the police.
Anyway, tl;dr we should all just get along.
You know somebody is white when they use their black friends as reference material for discussions on race. Or at least not black.
The root of these issues is systematic. One thing is all related to another. Poverty, schools, jobs, the economy, parenting, race, community, individual decision making influenced by cultural trends, all these things are interconnected and related to produce outcomes.
What's your point? What does my ethnicity have to do with this? You just repeated the exact same thing I said, except with a snarky and pointless comment.
Note that I mentioned it is not race, it is linked to poverty, and also familial upbringing, and other factors, so you're just regurgitating what I said. My comment on my black friends was meant to address the fact that it is not race that influences your actions, but environment and family values.
Post by: Novus on Tue, 28 April 2015, 15:51:56
Post by: baldgye on Tue, 28 April 2015, 15:54:34
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/PZbNZQU.jpg)
IS THAT A BOMB?!
Post by: paicrai on Tue, 28 April 2015, 15:59:03
Hurr durryou ****
Post by: ttzhou on Tue, 28 April 2015, 16:11:32
Your other 98% of cops are equally bad by keeping their mouth shut. See that's part of the problem, the thin blue line police follow. Everybody says it's a few bad apples yet the rest do nothing about it. Police departments need a serious ****ing overhaul.
I see your point. But at least try to understand the difficult position they are in. These bad cops are men and women these good cops work with every day, who might one day actually save their ass. If you are in that situation, would you be so quick to betray them? If your best friend committed a heinous crime, would you so quickly turn them in? It's so easy for us to sit in an armchair and criticize them and act like we are altruistic paragons of righteousness.
Another question: how do we know that officers do not report them? Most of the time, it is a *jury* of *citizens* who acquit these officers.
I do agree, police departments need a serious overhaul. So do the political systems. In fact, a lot of institutions need serious overhauls. But where is the media attention towards those institutions? Why aren't we equally as outraged at white collar criminals who embezzle billions? Politicians who levy wars that send young men to their deaths?
I'm just trying to avoid dealing with absolutes. Dealing with absolutes is a surefire way to lead to bad decisions. There are always two sides to the story.
Anyway, I can see that this is going to just spark more strong opinions. I'll just stop here and let you guys have the last word.
Post by: Novus on Tue, 28 April 2015, 16:15:14
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/PZbNZQU.jpg)
IS THAT A BOMB?!
I dunno :/
I think this picture represents a decent human gesture.
I just wanted to get this in here before we warp the interpretation of this to something ridiculous like here's a poor marginalized black kid being forced to provide a tax to tightey whitey. This is of course symbolic of taxes, which fundamentally impact poor substantially more than the middle and upper class, and also of the cycle of oppression. Also Capitalism is dead. Socialism and redistribution is alive and well. Take take take, the government is out to get you and carry guns. Yada Yada Yada I'm a stupid liberal.
Yada Yada Yada I'm a dumb conservative. Yada Yada Yada this isn't about race it's about economics. Yada Yada Yada I'm not a racist.
If you don't think this an accurate caricature of this thread then take a moment to read some of the stupid senseless **** you've written.
Good day folks and go **** yourself. :))
Post by: paicrai on Tue, 28 April 2015, 17:18:40
+1And here comes the closest racists of Geekhack.
At least they mark themselves. Easier to ignore.
Post by: Dubsgalore on Tue, 28 April 2015, 17:18:52
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/PZbNZQU.jpg)
those kid's new balance's are pretty sweet
Post by: paicrai on Tue, 28 April 2015, 18:05:47
The media has framed this as a race issue and the cattle are being herded appropriately.i hope this is a joke post
Post by: demik on Tue, 28 April 2015, 18:47:50
Your other 98% of cops are equally bad by keeping their mouth shut. See that's part of the problem, the thin blue line police follow. Everybody says it's a few bad apples yet the rest do nothing about it. Police departments need a serious ****ing overhaul.
I see your point. But at least try to understand the difficult position they are in. These bad cops are men and women these good cops work with every day, who might one day actually save their ass. If you are in that situation, would you be so quick to betray them? If your best friend committed a heinous crime, would you so quickly turn them in? It's so easy for us to sit in an armchair and criticize them and act like we are altruistic paragons of righteousness.
Another question: how do we know that officers do not report them? Most of the time, it is a *jury* of *citizens* who acquit these officers.
I do agree, police departments need a serious overhaul. So do the political systems. In fact, a lot of institutions need serious overhauls. But where is the media attention towards those institutions? Why aren't we equally as outraged at white collar criminals who embezzle billions? Politicians who levy wars that send young men to their deaths?
I'm just trying to avoid dealing with absolutes. Dealing with absolutes is a surefire way to lead to bad decisions. There are always two sides to the story.
Anyway, I can see that this is going to just spark more strong opinions. I'll just stop here and let you guys have the last word.
did you seriously just justify keeping quiet on a corrupt cop because he might "have your back" one day? that makes cops that dont say **** look like bigger cowards. yes, there are cops that speak up. very few. because from the top they get nonstop harassment. there is a story on NPR about a cop that went public (and recorded) about cops having ticket quotas in NY. what happened to him? whole department treated him like he was crazy. how about the guy in arizona (or some **** hole state) that recently beat the **** out of a homeless guy and wouldn't stop until the homeless guy said "you're the man?" he had a partner, didn't say a ****ing thing. who did? a cadet. and what happened to that cadet? he quit and had to move states because of the harassment he was going to receive.
and it's funny, because law enforcement is so behind stopping the "stop snitching" movement. yet the cowards do it themselves.
from the judge, DA to the **** cops on the street, law enforcement is absolute ****.
Post by: noisyturtle on Tue, 28 April 2015, 20:01:15
Now it's evolved from something utterly stupid and unjustified into a political race riot of an extremely susceptible economic group of Baltimore citizens. This entire thing is sad to watch. Humanity devolving right before our eyes.
Post by: ttzhou on Tue, 28 April 2015, 20:09:05
Your other 98% of cops are equally bad by keeping their mouth shut. See that's part of the problem, the thin blue line police follow. Everybody says it's a few bad apples yet the rest do nothing about it. Police departments need a serious ****ing overhaul.
I see your point. But at least try to understand the difficult position they are in. These bad cops are men and women these good cops work with every day, who might one day actually save their ass. If you are in that situation, would you be so quick to betray them? If your best friend committed a heinous crime, would you so quickly turn them in? It's so easy for us to sit in an armchair and criticize them and act like we are altruistic paragons of righteousness.
Another question: how do we know that officers do not report them? Most of the time, it is a *jury* of *citizens* who acquit these officers.
I do agree, police departments need a serious overhaul. So do the political systems. In fact, a lot of institutions need serious overhauls. But where is the media attention towards those institutions? Why aren't we equally as outraged at white collar criminals who embezzle billions? Politicians who levy wars that send young men to their deaths?
I'm just trying to avoid dealing with absolutes. Dealing with absolutes is a surefire way to lead to bad decisions. There are always two sides to the story.
Anyway, I can see that this is going to just spark more strong opinions. I'll just stop here and let you guys have the last word.
did you seriously just justify keeping quiet on a corrupt cop because he might "have your back" one day? that makes cops that dont say **** look like bigger cowards. yes, there are cops that speak up. very few. because from the top they get nonstop harassment. there is a story on NPR about a cop that went public (and recorded) about cops having ticket quotas in NY. what happened to him? whole department treated him like he was crazy. how about the guy in arizona (or some **** hole state) that recently beat the **** out of a homeless guy and wouldn't stop until the homeless guy said "you're the man?" he had a partner, didn't say a ****ing thing. who did? a cadet. and what happened to that cadet? he quit and had to move states because of the harassment he was going to receive.
and it's funny, because law enforcement is so behind stopping the "stop snitching" movement. yet the cowards do it themselves.
from the judge, DA to the **** cops on the street, law enforcement is absolute ****.
No, I didn't justify anything. I simply said that we should try and empathize with their position.
What would you do in their position? Have you been in their position? I'm not a cop, so I can't say. But neither are you. I agree with you on the LAPD and the NYPD being corrupt. But you would have to say NYPD, LAPD are corrupt police departments. It's not law enforcement as a whole, though, so I have to disagree with you on your final statement, it's painting with a really wide brush.
I do agree that there is corruption in the system, but it's no different than any other institution like politics and high finance. It just gets more focus. Why don't we give the same amount of focus to the rampant drug problem that is feeding this in the first place, or the thousands of other complex factors?
Good points though! ;D And you could be right as well, I am just speaking from my personal experience with police here in Canada, I do find that 98% of cops are good folks. Maybe it really is that bad in the States, in which case, it's a whole other question - why is this the case?
Post by: demik on Tue, 28 April 2015, 20:16:42
Your other 98% of cops are equally bad by keeping their mouth shut. See that's part of the problem, the thin blue line police follow. Everybody says it's a few bad apples yet the rest do nothing about it. Police departments need a serious ****ing overhaul.
I see your point. But at least try to understand the difficult position they are in. These bad cops are men and women these good cops work with every day, who might one day actually save their ass. If you are in that situation, would you be so quick to betray them? If your best friend committed a heinous crime, would you so quickly turn them in? It's so easy for us to sit in an armchair and criticize them and act like we are altruistic paragons of righteousness.
Another question: how do we know that officers do not report them? Most of the time, it is a *jury* of *citizens* who acquit these officers.
I do agree, police departments need a serious overhaul. So do the political systems. In fact, a lot of institutions need serious overhauls. But where is the media attention towards those institutions? Why aren't we equally as outraged at white collar criminals who embezzle billions? Politicians who levy wars that send young men to their deaths?
I'm just trying to avoid dealing with absolutes. Dealing with absolutes is a surefire way to lead to bad decisions. There are always two sides to the story.
Anyway, I can see that this is going to just spark more strong opinions. I'll just stop here and let you guys have the last word.
did you seriously just justify keeping quiet on a corrupt cop because he might "have your back" one day? that makes cops that dont say **** look like bigger cowards. yes, there are cops that speak up. very few. because from the top they get nonstop harassment. there is a story on NPR about a cop that went public (and recorded) about cops having ticket quotas in NY. what happened to him? whole department treated him like he was crazy. how about the guy in arizona (or some **** hole state) that recently beat the **** out of a homeless guy and wouldn't stop until the homeless guy said "you're the man?" he had a partner, didn't say a ****ing thing. who did? a cadet. and what happened to that cadet? he quit and had to move states because of the harassment he was going to receive.
and it's funny, because law enforcement is so behind stopping the "stop snitching" movement. yet the cowards do it themselves.
from the judge, DA to the **** cops on the street, law enforcement is absolute ****.
No, I didn't justify anything. I simply said that we should try and empathize with their position.
What would you do in their position? Have you been in their position? I'm not a cop, so I can't say. But neither are you. I agree with you on the LAPD and the NYPD being corrupt. But you would have to say NYPD, LAPD are corrupt police departments. It's not law enforcement as a whole, though, so I have to disagree with you on your final statement, it's painting with a really wide brush.
I do agree that there is corruption in the system, but it's no different than any other institution like politics and high finance. It just gets more focus. Why don't we give the same amount of focus to the rampant drug problem that is feeding this in the first place, or the thousands of other complex factors?
Good points though! ;D And you could be right as well, I am just speaking from my personal experience with police here in Canada, I do find that 98% of cops are good folks. Maybe it really is that bad in the States, in which case, it's a whole other question - why is this the case?
i can't empathize with a cop. they know what they signed up for. not like they were told the job will be full of daises and butterflies from day one.
and why is it bad? no accountability. PDs purposely hiring cops with low IQs.
cop doesnt give a **** if they're caught on tape. DA won't charge them, their union backs them up and if they eventually lose the lawsuit, the city will pay. no money out of pocket. gets fired? eh, no biggie, i'll move to another town and become a cop there.
LAPD, NYPD, APD, any PD. same ****, different toilet.
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 29 April 2015, 06:05:14
Demik, that was the most awesome statement I have seen in a while...
That said, I don't think the police in my country are ****. We call them poodles (because poodles are dogs that bark furiously for their masters).
Police are different based on the national culture. As a non black person I would rather have a brutal and racist police force, than one that can't get anything done. In Singapore the police run for cover when there is a riot, then emerge en masse to harass political dissidents. At least I have grudging respect for the US police.
Post by: nubbinator on Wed, 29 April 2015, 11:50:19
As a non black person I would rather have a brutal and racist police force, than one that can't get anything done. In Singapore the police run for cover when there is a riot, then emerge en masse to harass political dissidents. At least I have grudging respect for the US police.
As a non black person I would rather have a brutal and racist police force, than one that can't get anything done. In Singapore the police run for cover when there is a riot, then emerge en masse to harass political dissidents. At least I have grudging respect for the US police.
Totalitarianism vs anarchy is not a choice, both should be despised.
And I don't get the rationale behind saying "as a non black person". As a human being, you should be concerned anytime any person is abused by people who abuse their power. That's just basic human empathy.
In addition to that, there's the understanding of human behavior that should make you despise it. As their power increases and remains unchecked due to a lack of punishments for bad behavior, no true systemic checks against their behavior, and a lack of people with clout standing up to them, there are fewer and fewer barriers in place to stop them from coming after others because they know nothing will happen.
Post by: berserkfan on Wed, 29 April 2015, 13:27:55
As a non black person I would rather have a brutal and racist police force, than one that can't get anything done. In Singapore the police run for cover when there is a riot, then emerge en masse to harass political dissidents. At least I have grudging respect for the US police.As a non black person I would rather have a brutal and racist police force, than one that can't get anything done. In Singapore the police run for cover when there is a riot, then emerge en masse to harass political dissidents. At least I have grudging respect for the US police.
Totalitarianism vs anarchy is not a choice, both should be despised.
And I don't get the rationale behind saying "as a non black person". As a human being, you should be concerned anytime any person is abused by people who abuse their power. That's just basic human empathy.
In addition to that, there's the understanding of human behavior that should make you despise it. As their power increases and remains unchecked due to a lack of punishments for bad behavior, no true systemic checks against their behavior, and a lack of people with clout standing up to them, there are fewer and fewer barriers in place to stop them from coming after others because they know nothing will happen.
Nubbinator, in response I will observe the following:
ONE
Me pointing out that I am non-black does not suggest that black lives don’t matter. That’s your own stretched conclusion. Rather, it is an acknowledgement of a potential bias or different starting point in my assumptions. Which is that the police are not a ‘racist occupying force’ but exist to keep order. (The order itself may be unjust but it is not the police’s duty to create a just social order.)
The police are properly to be controlled by elected officials and civilian authorities. If you are not happy with the conduct of the police, either elect a new police commissioner or get your mayor to appoint a suitable commish (depending on what your local political system does.) The fact that the black mayor, black police commissioner, and majority black city councillors of Baltimore have not seen fit to reform their police department suggests that it is not an electoral issue that greatly matters to the two-thirds black population of Baltimore.
‘Basic human empathy’ suggests that we should respect the views and values of these people. Remember, when people are actually voting and making coolheaded decisions, they may be thinking: “I hate the racist corrupt police, but they are still better than the thugs in my crime ridden neighbourhood. So long as the bad guys are scared of the police, I’ll hold my nose and accept things as they are.”
And that’s how I would have voted too. I did not say it was a pleasing choice.
TWO
This is not the first time I have heard Singapore described as a dictatorship, a totalitarian state, a fascist state or whatever. That fails spectacularly in describing the state of affairs here.
I call this an electoral monarchy because the political culture in Singapore most resembles the political culture in another island country at a particular point in its political development.
When Hobbes was writing the Leviathan, the large majority of English people and most Europeans believed in absolute monarchy. Many people were deeply upset that a (literally) unholy alliance of property owners and religious fanatics did away with their monarch. If everyone could vote in 1651, they would almost certainly have voted for their existing monarchs.
Hobbes has since been superseded in Europe, but it took them a long time. Royalists were still influential in 20th century Europe. At present a number of countries still believe in the Hobbesian view of politics, including Singapore, Thailand, Cambodia and Bhutan. The populace will vote enthusiastically for their king! Local monarchs still command a lot of respect and moral authority in many African and Arab countries. Political evolution takes time.
I do not think authoritarianism is necessarily despicable, or even that it can develop unchecked and escalate endlessly. The Western world is influenced by the example of Nazism and Niemoller’s words. Every authoritarian system has its own natural limits. Kim Jong Un for instance is very powerful but he is still restrained by the need to appeal to his own ruling clique that supports him in his daily affairs.
As for the police departments in the USA, they can always be restrained every election cycle. The question is whether voters actually want to.
Now let me tell you this unvarnished reality my dear Nubbinator and fellow geeks. You guys are NOT going to vote for police reform. You may grumble, but when the next election comes you will vote for the incumbent with more name recognition or the guy from your preferred political party. That’s how Americans always vote.
Post by: tbc on Wed, 29 April 2015, 14:06:20
That’s how Americans always vote.
well....some of them. alot of people in western nations just don't vote.
Post by: nubbinator on Wed, 29 April 2015, 14:40:36
Me pointing out that I am non-black does not suggest that black lives don’t matter. That’s your own stretched conclusion. Rather, it is an acknowledgement of a potential bias or different starting point in my assumptions.
I never said you said black lives don't matter, I said it's unjust to say that since the issue does not affect you due to your race that it doesn't really matter that they're brutal and aggressive toward certain people.
Which is that the police are not a ‘racist occupying force’ but exist to keep order. (The order itself may be unjust but it is not the police’s duty to create a just social order.)
Not sure where you got anything about a "racist occupying force" as I never said anything like that.
Your statement is problematic as police claim to be there to serve and protect, yet are not obligated to render aid and assistance. A police force who is there to keep order and who often resort to brutal tactics are no better than a foreign occupying force.
The police are properly to be controlled by elected officials and civilian authorities. If you are not happy with the conduct of the police, either elect a new police commissioner or get your mayor to appoint a suitable commish (depending on what your local political system does.) The fact that the black mayor, black police commissioner, and majority black city councillors of Baltimore have not seen fit to reform their police department suggests that it is not an electoral issue that greatly matters to the two-thirds black population of Baltimore.
That's an overreaching assumption. You ignore the power of police unions and how police routinely engage in harassing behavior and smear campaigns against those who speak out against them. It's almost impossible to reform police departments without FBI investigations or bad cops getting killed (not that I'm suggesting the latter). Many cities, including Baltimore, have attempted civilian oversight of police departments, but they're ineffective and have no power to do anything. The rare instances where there's the ability to do top to bottom police reform is the result of corruption and arrests of top officials.
In other words, to say it's not something that people care about is an untrue statement. It's something people care about, but are not empowered to make a change about because the police have been given too much power and independence and it cannot be revoked.
‘Basic human empathy’ suggests that we should respect the views and values of these people. Remember, when people are actually voting and making coolheaded decisions, they may be thinking: “I hate the racist corrupt police, but they are still better than the thugs in my crime ridden neighbourhood. So long as the bad guys are scared of the police, I’ll hold my nose and accept things as they are.”
And that’s how I would have voted too. I did not say it was a pleasing choice.
Many in the poor neighborhoods prefer gangs to police since gangs are more likely to play by the rules and provide order in a neighborhood. As long as police continue to have an us and them mindset instead of engaging in community policing, this will continue to be an issue.
TWO
This is not the first time I have heard Singapore described as a dictatorship, a totalitarian state, a fascist state or whatever. That fails spectacularly in describing the state of affairs here.MoreI call this an electoral monarchy because the political culture in Singapore most resembles the political culture in another island country at a particular point in its political development.
When Hobbes was writing the Leviathan, the large majority of English people and most Europeans believed in absolute monarchy. Many people were deeply upset that a (literally) unholy alliance of property owners and religious fanatics did away with their monarch. If everyone could vote in 1651, they would almost certainly have voted for their existing monarchs.
Hobbes has since been superseded in Europe, but it took them a long time. Royalists were still influential in 20th century Europe. At present a number of countries still believe in the Hobbesian view of politics, including Singapore, Thailand, Cambodia and Bhutan. The populace will vote enthusiastically for their king! Local monarchs still command a lot of respect and moral authority in many African and Arab countries. Political evolution takes time.
I do not think authoritarianism is necessarily despicable, or even that it can develop unchecked and escalate endlessly. The Western world is influenced by the example of Nazism and Niemoller’s words. Every authoritarian system has its own natural limits. Kim Jong Un for instance is very powerful but he is still restrained by the need to appeal to his own ruling clique that supports him in his daily affairs.
I never called Singapore a totalitarian state. The discussion was on police and I was stating that there are two extremes that you were describing, the totalitarian state approach that US police often take and the laissez-faire or anarchic approach of the Singaporean police you were describing, both of which are bad.
As for the police departments in the USA, they can always be restrained every election cycle. The question is whether voters actually want to.
Again, I point back to fundamentally misunderstanding American politics, as I already discussed above.
Now let me tell you this unvarnished reality my dear Nubbinator and fellow geeks. You guys are NOT going to vote for police reform. You may grumble, but when the next election comes you will vote for the incumbent with more name recognition or the guy from your preferred political party. That’s how Americans always vote.
Again, you are flat out wrong on this. I rarely vote for the incumbent, especially in Orange County where most of them are conservative yes men. I always vote for someone who I feel will bring accountability and work in the best interest of the people.
Post by: paicrai on Wed, 29 April 2015, 20:46:58
Post by: ttzhou on Wed, 29 April 2015, 21:07:05
Many in the poor neighborhoods prefer gangs to police since gangs are more likely to play by the rules and provide order in a neighborhood. As long as police continue to have an us and them mindset instead of engaging in community policing, this will continue to be an issue.
I think the issue, as was sort of touched upon by demik and I during our discussion, is the hiring practices and training that modern police receive. I was talking to my boxing coach, who is an old school police, he was coached by an old school police, and they always tell us how different modern police are trained. They are trained to be like soldiers, rather than guardians, which fits in exactly with this "us against them" mentality, and I think a lot of this had to with the whole "war on drugs" political motion that has been going on in the past few decades.
He was telling me how old school police would always know their communities, and everyone knew the local cop who walked their beat. They rarely had to resort to violence to solve problems... if there was drugs, they'd find out who was distributing, and take it from there. Nowadays, there's more cops, but less talking - it's all about knocking heads, and rips of low level guys, while the upper level dealers continue to go on unpunished. Seeing these militarized cops beating on poor kids who are trying to make money (not excusing their actions, they are lazy and worthless for dealing drugs) doesn't really help the image or the situation, and that is going to come to a head, like what just happened.
This difference of soldier vs guardian/investigator contributes I think to the disconnect between the police and the people they are supposed to protect. Humans trust people they can connect with and talk to... not people who come around and beat down their ass. Add on the valid points about how the departments are growing unchecked in power, and the numerous civil rights infringements, and it's no wonder why these recent occurrences have happened.
I wonder how big of an issue this will be in your next election?
Post by: IonutZ on Wed, 29 April 2015, 21:22:05
Post by: sleepy916 on Wed, 29 April 2015, 21:35:03
If the cops are in the wrong, then yeah give them their punishment like the cop in South Carolina.
Post by: noisyturtle on Wed, 29 April 2015, 21:36:53
Post by: hwood34 on Wed, 29 April 2015, 21:40:30
why are people defending the actions of the protesters itt?well peaceful protest is fine. the people that are looting and getting violent usually don't care about the cause and are just taking advantage of a favorable situation.
Post by: noisyturtle on Wed, 29 April 2015, 21:44:45
why are people defending the actions of the protesters itt?well peaceful protest is fine. the people that are looting and getting violent usually don't care about the cause and are just taking advantage of a favorable situation.
Yeah exactly, and somehow this thread has devolved into yet another police brutality thread. If anything, this is the exact opposite of that where it's the citizens acting like ****s and the cops are the ones getting hurt and putting themselves out there to protect these neighborhoods yet no one seems to find any empathy when the tables are turned. You can't just take an arguments side simply when it suits you.
Post by: demik on Wed, 29 April 2015, 21:52:13
http://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-paid-5-million-in-4-years-for-police-brutality-lawsuits-2015-4
nobody is defending the looters. they're opportunists, we can all agree to that. they make the actual protesters look bad.
Post by: noisyturtle on Wed, 29 April 2015, 21:58:06
Post by: demik on Wed, 29 April 2015, 21:58:53
some are cowards that don't speak up. and are just as bad.
but hey, the blue line must not be crossed.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site
Post by: ttzhou on Wed, 29 April 2015, 22:10:29
not all.
some are cowards that don't speak up. and are just as bad.
but hey, the blue line must not be crossed.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site
You know, it may really be that bad in the trenches where you are, and in which case, I feel lucky to not have to be in that kind of environment. But not all cops are evil, and those who do not speak up are not necessarily cowards. They have their own families that they have to take care of as well. It's not all as black and white as you make it seem to be, and it's not healthy to label *all* cops as the enemy - that kind of behaviour is not much different than racism. Not saying you are a racist, just drawing parallels between the attitudes.
That being said, you present some alarming examples of police corruption, and that is definitely something that needs to be fixed post haste, and I learned something from that, so thank you on that point.
Post by: demik on Wed, 29 April 2015, 22:19:27
not all.
some are cowards that don't speak up. and are just as bad.
but hey, the blue line must not be crossed.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site
You know, it may really be that bad in the trenches where you are, and in which case, I feel lucky to not have to be in that kind of environment. But not all cops are evil, and those who do not speak up are not necessarily cowards. They have their own families that they have to take care of as well. It's not all as black and white as you make it seem to be, and it's not healthy to label *all* cops as the enemy - that kind of behaviour is not much different than racism. Not saying you are a racist, just drawing parallels between the attitudes.
That being said, you present some alarming examples of police corruption, and that is definitely something that needs to be fixed post haste, and I learned something from that, so thank you on that point.
they can only blame themselves for fearing other cops. turn a blind eye and more will pop up.
this is what happens when it gets out of control.
http://www.freeabq.com/?p=1673
i dont see cops as the enemy. i just don't put blind trust in them. they aren't here for me. they're here to uphold the law and create revenue by any means necessary.
and this isn't a race issue. cops have attacked people of every race. it isn't just white cops that beat people. it's just the media that latches on to white on black crime for ratings.
and, tbh, it's only black people that care enough to speak up. now if only they got stuff under control they'd probably achieve something.
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 30 April 2015, 02:20:45
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish
Summary: Baltimore cops have spent the last 15+ years being totally arbitrary thugs instead of doing police work, and cooking the books to make their crime stats look good, and now everything is a mess and nobody likes them. Blame the drug war, and blame police commissioners and politicians looking after their own career advancement instead of the integrity of the police department.
Post by: baldgye on Thu, 30 April 2015, 03:05:00
People interested in this topic should read this interview with David Simon:
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish
Summary: Baltimore cops have spent the last 15+ years being totally arbitrary thugs instead of doing police work, and cooking the books to make their crime stats look good, and now everything is a mess and nobody likes them. Blame the drug war, and blame police commissioners and politicians looking after their own career advancement instead of the integrity of the police department.
So pretty much The Wire then
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 30 April 2015, 10:52:27
You know somebody is white when they use their black friends as reference material for discussions on race. Or at least not black.
The root of these issues is systematic. One thing is all related to another. Poverty, schools, jobs, the economy, parenting, race, community, individual decision making influenced by cultural trends, all these things are interconnected and related to produce outcomes.
What's your point? What does my ethnicity have to do with this? You just repeated the exact same thing I said, except with a snarky and pointless comment.
Note that I mentioned it is not race, it is linked to poverty, and also familial upbringing, and other factors, so you're just regurgitating what I said. My comment on my black friends was meant to address the fact that it is not race that influences your actions, but environment and family values.
My point is that using "my black friends..." as supporting evidence for your arguments is crappy supporting evidence, regardless of your race, national origin, economic background, etc. I admit to not reading your whole post because whenever I see the phrase "my black friends" I have a knee jerk reaction to believe that the speaker has no clue what it is like to grow up and live in poverty with crap family life in a crap urban American neighborhood with crap schools and crap jobs and not enough resources to access places with better jobs and education opportunities to climb out of poverty and then the additional influence of racial messages and being a member of a race that has been systemically repressed for most of your country's history, and a large chunk of the population still holds veiled racist views against you and doesn't really want to take the effort and energy to understand you as a person. All the speaker has is their limited interactions in the bubble of their daily and lifetime experiences (we all live in our little bubbles, fyi), and should make an effort to visualize themselves in these less-than-ideal environments to understand why people act the way they do, rather default to their own limited experiences as evidence.
Then you write things like " Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count."
And I'm like wut. What the hell is that? Of course it's not an innate racial thing, you don't need a grand scientific study to figure that out and will serve to justify currently held racist views and discourage people from understanding each person as a person. Anecdotal evidence will work just fine to answer that question. The more people you meet, the more places you go, the more interactions and experiences you develop, the more you understand that WE ARE ALL ONE, and way more alike than we are different. And this is a beautiful thing, because it allows us to connect with and understand almost anyone.
Okay, then stuff like this: "*WHY* is this the case?...How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities..."
You don't seem to understand human nature very well. We are human, we are inherently flawed, we always will be, and our institutions and cultures always will be flawed because they reflect who we are as people. We always will create problem to be solved, because each of us are problems to be solved. Things can be improved, but most likely never completely solved. Psychology is a heck of a field for understanding human behavior. You can attempt to apply scientific research and engineer a solution, but we are humans, not robots. We are emotional, irrational, self-absorbed, and basically incapable of making the best decisions based on all the best information because the limitations of our tiny human minds to grasp the information overload that is modern life. Accept it, don't cause problems yourself, and the world is a better place just because of that.
Like you mentioned, a variety of factors are at play that influence why individuals act the way that they do. The main problem that I see in discussions of race is people do not consider how an individual's decision making is influenced by many factors to produce outcomes, and we lack empathy and compassion with how we attempt to understand people.
A lot of the other things you have written throughout this thread could use some further analysis, but I'm not gonna bother right now.
Post by: ttzhou on Thu, 30 April 2015, 12:21:54
My point is that using "my black friends..." as supporting evidence for your arguments is crappy supporting evidence, regardless of your race, national origin, economic background, etc. I admit to not reading your whole post because whenever I see the phrase "my black friends" I have a knee jerk reaction to believe that the speaker has no clue what it is like to grow up and live in poverty with crap family life in a crap urban American neighborhood with crap schools and crap jobs and not enough resources to access places with better jobs and education opportunities to climb out of poverty and then the additional influence of racial messages and being a member of a race that has been systemically repressed for most of your country's history, and a large chunk of the population still holds veiled racist views against you and doesn't really want to take the effort and energy to understand you as a person. All the speaker has is their limited interactions in the bubble of their daily and lifetime experiences (we all live in our little bubbles, fyi), and should make an effort to visualize themselves in these less-than-ideal environments to understand why people act the way they do, rather default to their own limited experiences as evidence.
I don't know you in person, nor do I profess to know anything about you. As such, I don't make "knee-jerk" reactions about you either. So I say this very, very, very kindly. You don't know **** about me, or my upbringing, or what I went through. So kindly step off that topic before assuming more about me.
If you had quoted my entire sentence, rather than using an ellipsis to highlight my words out of context, you would note that I specfically referred to my well educated black friends who come from a good family background. They empathize with the situation and the peaceful protesters, but are disgusted by the looters. The reason I used them as an example was to show that it is NOT race, but how you are RAISED that influences your actions. There are much poorer, more underprivileged people in Asia, South America who do not riot under their oppressive regime. Instead, they bear it with dignity and try to focus on improving their situation through peaceful means. So really, there is *no excuse* for the violent rioting. Period.
Quote
Then you write things like " Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count."
And I'm like wut. What the hell is that? Of course it's not an innate racial thing, you don't need a grand scientific study to figure that out and will serve to justify currently held racist views and discourage people from understanding each person as a person. Anecdotal evidence will work just fine to answer that question. The more people you meet, the more places you go, the more interactions and experiences you develop, the more you understand that WE ARE ALL ONE, and way more alike than we are different. And this is a beautiful thing, because it allows us to connect with and understand almost anyone.
You are taking what I say out of context. I said that a response to common reasons cited by racists for their causes. Nowhere did I say that was my opinion.
Quote
Okay, then stuff like this: "*WHY* is this the case?...How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities..."
You don't seem to understand human nature very well. We are human, we are inherently flawed, we always will be, and our institutions and cultures always will be flawed because they reflect who we are as people. We always will create problem to be solved, because each of us are problems to be solved. Things can be improved, but most likely never completely solved. Psychology is a heck of a field for understanding human behavior. You can attempt to apply scientific research and engineer a solution, but we are humans, not robots. We are emotional, irrational, self-absorbed, and basically incapable of making the best decisions based on all the best information because the limitations of our tiny human minds to grasp the information overload that is modern life. Accept it, don't cause problems yourself, and the world is a better place just because of that.
I understand human nature perfectly fine. Furthermore, it is this attitude you profess that "humans are inherently flawed and can never be fully rehabilitated" that perpetuates the problem. I believe we should hold ourselves to a higher standard and strive to improve these things. It may never happen - but it is much, much better than resigning ourselves to our so called fate as flawed creatures.
Quote
Like you mentioned, a variety of factors are at play that influence why individuals act the way that they do. The main problem that I see in discussions of race is people do not consider how an individual's decision making is influenced by many factors to produce outcomes, and we lack empathy and compassion with how we attempt to understand people.
A lot of the other things you have written throughout this thread could use some further analysis, but I'm not gonna bother right now.
I look forward to your analysis, and replying to it. Thank you for taking the time to read what I write (no sarcasm, meant in earnest).
Post by: ttzhou on Thu, 30 April 2015, 12:43:36
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 30 April 2015, 13:57:22
Now... This seeeems plausible. As I am not totally sure how conscious/alive a man can be had he sustained that injury Prior to entering the police van.. He seemed like he was coherent while getting "into the van" in the crowd sourced video..
Hrrm.......
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 30 April 2015, 15:22:08
Post by: ttzhou on Thu, 30 April 2015, 15:30:15
Ttzhou, thanks for your replies. We all deserve to be heard. I know what I said was a little rant-like and accusatory, but I also believe than any major event or social issue needs to be understand and examined from the level of individual decision and actor that causes the event. These are the individual actions and choices that need to the events we read about in the news, and how we act and treat each other on an individual level is the root cause of all human problems. That's my major beef. People tend to throw out blanket assumptions, rather than attempt to understand from the individual level.
Haha things always get heated when we don't have tone and face-to-face contact - that's the Internet for you! I'm sure we'd be way more chill and laid back over this if we talked about this in person over a beer or two. :thumb:
Post by: vivalarevolución on Thu, 30 April 2015, 18:33:37
Ttzhou, thanks for your replies. We all deserve to be heard. I know what I said was a little rant-like and accusatory, but I also believe than any major event or social issue needs to be understand and examined from the level of individual decision and actor that causes the event. These are the individual actions and choices that need to the events we read about in the news, and how we act and treat each other on an individual level is the root cause of all human problems. That's my major beef. People tend to throw out blanket assumptions, rather than attempt to understand from the individual level.
Haha things always get heated when we don't have tone and face-to-face contact - that's the Internet for you! I'm sure we'd be way more chill and laid back over this if we talked about this in person over a beer or two. :thumb:
Yea, you're probably right. I think I was a little pissy today, male PMS or something.
Not saying this is you in particular, but I get going when I hear many comments concerning race and American urban issues from people that have no clue what it's like to live in a lower income, non-white American urban neighborhood, and how that might influence a person.
Post by: ttzhou on Thu, 30 April 2015, 20:10:22
Ttzhou, thanks for your replies. We all deserve to be heard. I know what I said was a little rant-like and accusatory, but I also believe than any major event or social issue needs to be understand and examined from the level of individual decision and actor that causes the event. These are the individual actions and choices that need to the events we read about in the news, and how we act and treat each other on an individual level is the root cause of all human problems. That's my major beef. People tend to throw out blanket assumptions, rather than attempt to understand from the individual level.
Haha things always get heated when we don't have tone and face-to-face contact - that's the Internet for you! I'm sure we'd be way more chill and laid back over this if we talked about this in person over a beer or two. :thumb:
Yea, you're probably right. I think I was a little pissy today, male PMS or something.
Not saying this is you in particular, but I get going when I hear many comments concerning race and American urban issues from people that have no clue what it's like to live in a lower income, non-white American urban neighborhood, and how that might influence a person.
No, you're right, I guess I give off the vibe of being someone who doesn't know what it's like on the other side of the tracks by the way I write. I mean, I am in good standards now that I live here in Canada, but I used to live the poor immigrant life too, downtown LA and in Dinkytown (yes, that is a legit town name), and my family was constantly harassed and abused by Mao's Red Guard in the old Communist motherland. I know what it's like to not have a lot.
I was lucky to have two hard-working parents though, who took the time to raise me right. A lot of my friends then didn't and it's sad to see where they ended up, for the few that I still know about. I think that's where my perspective on nature vs nurture really stems from. But definitely, I didn't have it as hard as a lot of folks in the trenches; I'm trying to learn though and gain more perspective on that.
Post by: demik on Fri, 01 May 2015, 14:08:27
Quote
* Ruled a **homicide**
* Cause of neck injury was being handcuffed in van but not secured by seatbelt
* **No probable cause for Gray's arrest**: his knife was legal, wasn't a switchblade
* All six officers charged, charges including **2nd degree murder** (for one officer only), negligent manslaughter, assault, false imprisonment, misconduct in office, mishandling of evidence
* Warrant has been issued for arrest of officers involved
This is huge news.
Specific charges:
> *Officer Caesar R. Goodson Jr.:* Second-degree depraved heart murder, involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, manslaughter by vehicle, misconduct in office.
> *Officer William G. Porter:* Involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, misconduct in office.
> *Lt. Brian W. Rice:* Involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment.
> *Officer Edward M. Nero:* Second-degree assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment.
> *Officer Garrett Miller:* Second-degree assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment.
> *Sgt. Alicia D. White:* Manslaughter, second-degree assault, misconduct in office.
Now to wait for them to be magically acquitted.
Post by: baldgye on Fri, 01 May 2015, 14:14:57
Post by: demik on Fri, 01 May 2015, 14:44:14
Isn't it a big deal for them to have been charged though? Considering past cases?
No. Most would think they are being charged to calm things down.
We need stuff to stick.
Post by: demik on Fri, 01 May 2015, 19:32:35
rioter turns himself in, bail set at half a million dollars
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/30/baltimore-rioters-parents-500000-bail-allen-bullock?CMP=fb_us
cops' bail? highest is 350,000.
http://www.wibw.com/home/headlines/Press-conference-by-States-Attorney-Regarding-Freddie-Gray-302151401.html
i mean ****.. then people wonder why they don't trust the justice system.
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 01 May 2015, 19:40:09
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/01/1381699/-Baltimore-State-s-Attorney-Freddie-Gray-s-death-was-a-homicide-and-criminal-charges-will-be-pursuedQuote* Ruled a **homicide**
* Cause of neck injury was being handcuffed in van but not secured by seatbelt
* **No probable cause for Gray's arrest**: his knife was legal, wasn't a switchblade
* All six officers charged, charges including **2nd degree murder** (for one officer only), negligent manslaughter, assault, false imprisonment, misconduct in office, mishandling of evidence
* Warrant has been issued for arrest of officers involved
This is huge news.
Specific charges:
> *Officer Caesar R. Goodson Jr.:* Second-degree depraved heart murder, involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, manslaughter by vehicle, misconduct in office.
> *Officer William G. Porter:* Involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, misconduct in office.
> *Lt. Brian W. Rice:* Involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment.
> *Officer Edward M. Nero:* Second-degree assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment.
> *Officer Garrett Miller:* Second-degree assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment.
> *Sgt. Alicia D. White:* Manslaughter, second-degree assault, misconduct in office.
Now to wait for them to be magically acquitted.
Riot, the 2nd coming.. Here we go...
Post by: demik on Fri, 01 May 2015, 19:42:19
http://www.sltrib.com/news/2460434-155/west-jordan-police-sued-for-excessive
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 01 May 2015, 19:43:21
Isn't it a big deal for them to have been charged though? Considering past cases?
No. Most would think they are being charged to calm things down.
We need stuff to stick.
I think making 1 tribute out of 1 of the officers might be a necessary concession this time around to keep Riot-2 from manifesting.
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 01 May 2015, 23:45:42
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 02 May 2015, 02:27:20
Quote
OK...here it is...
I'm going to try to keep this as brief as I can, but I've been asked by several people about Central Booking today, so I'll give you guys the shocking highlights. As much as I'd like to, I can't describe the particulars of some of the more egregious arrests, due to attorney/client privilege issues, but I would like to describe the Civil Liberties violations, and the deplorable conditions which people have had to endure.
As many of you know, more than 250 people have been arrested since Monday here in Baltimore. Normally when you are arrested, you are given a copy of your charging documents and then you must see a commissioner within 24 hours for a bail determination ("prompt presentment") and given a trial date. If you are not released after the commissioner hearing, you will be brought before a judge for
a review of the bail set by the commissioner. None of this was happening, so we sent some lawyers to Central Booking yesterday to try to help. I heard, however, that only 2 commissioners showed up, and the correctional officers only brought about 9 people to be interviewed because the jail was on a mysterious "lock-down".
Today we were divided into two groups. Some of the lawyers were assigned the task of actually doing judicial bail reviews for as many folks as they could get interviewed and docketed. I was assigned to the other group. We were the "habeas team", and we were to interview folks that we felt were being illegally detained, so we could file writs of habeas corpus. Governor Hogan had issued an
executive order, extending the time for prompt presentment to 47 hours. We believed that this order was invalid because the governor has no authority to alter the Maryland Rules. As a result, all people who were being detained for more than 24 hours without seeing a commissioner were being held illegally.
Knowing all of this, I was still not prepared for what I saw when I arrived. The small concrete booking cells were filled with hundreds of people, most with more than ten people per cell. Three of us were sent to the women's side where there were up to 15 women per holding cell. Most of them had been there since Monday afternoon/evening. With the exception of 3 or 4 women, the women who weren't there for Monday's round-ups were there for freaking curfew violations. Many had not seen a doctor or received required medication. Many had not been able to reach a family member by phone. But here is the WORST thing. Not only had these women been held for two days and two nights without any sort of formal booking, BUT ALMOST NONE OF THEM HAD ACTUALLY BEEN CHARGED WITH ANYTHING. They were brought to CBIF via paddy wagons (most without seat belts, btw--a real shocker after all that's happened), and taken to holding cells without ever being charged with an actual crime. No offense reports. No statements of probable cause. A few women had a vague idea what they might be charged with, some because of what they had actually been involved in, and some because of what the officer said, but quite a few had no idea why they were even there. Incidentally, I interviewed no one whose potential charges would have been more serious than petty theft, and most seemed to be disorderly conduct or failure to obey, charges which would usually result in an immediate recog/release.
The holding cells are approximately 10x10 (some slightly larger), with one open sink and toilet. The women were instructed that the water was "bad" and that they shouldn't drink it. There are no beds--just a concrete cube. No blankets or pillows. The cells were designed to hold people for a few hours, not a few days. In the one cell which housed 15 women, there wasn't even enough room for them all to lay down at the same time. Three times a day, the guards brought each woman 4 slices of bread, a slice of american cheese and a small bag of cookies. They sometimes got juice, but water was scarce, as the CO's had to wheel a water cooler through every so often (the regular water being "broken".)
My fellow attorneys and I all separately heard the same sickening story over and over. None of the women really wanted to eat 4 slices of bread 3 times a day, so they were saving slices of bread TO USE AS PILLOWS. Let me say that again. THEY WERE ALL USING BREAD AS PILLOWS SO THAT THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO LAY THEIR HEADS ON THE FILTHY CONCRETE FLOOR.
Interviewing these women was emotionally exhausting. Quite a few of them began crying--so happy to finally see someone who might know why they were there, or perhaps how they might get out of this Kafka-esque nightmare. These women came from all walks of life. We interviewed high school students, college students, people with graduate degrees, people with GED's, single women, married women,
mothers, the well-employed, the unemployed, black women and white women. Almost all of them had no record. Those that did, had things like dui's and very minor misdemeanors. Our group didn't interview any of the men on the other side, but my colleagues reported very similar situations. On the men's side there were journalists and activists, as well as highschool kids with no records, barely 18 years old.
As we were getting ready to leave, we heard that many of these folks might be released without charges, after being held for 2 days. When we returned to the office, our amazing "habeas fellow", Zina Makar, single-handedly filed 82 habeas petitions. That is when we heard that 101 people were released without charges. I'd like to think that the amazing legal response to this injustice played a large part in their release, and I feel privileged to have been a part of it. They may be charged later, but I'm guessing most of them won't based on how minor their alleged infractions are. There are still over a hundred folks in there that need to see a commissioner and/or a judge, but hopefully we have thinned the ranks a little, and we will keep fighting until everyone has received due process. (We are concerned about these folks potential bails, as we are hearing about bails in the hundreds of thousands of dollars for misdemeanor charges).
I'll wrap this up by reminding everyone that all lives matter. We are all human beings. And we are Americans, and as such we are afforded protections under the law, the guilty and innocent alike. If one person is denied due process, we all suffer. If one persons rights and freedoms are trampled on, it's not only a reflection on all of us, but it puts our own liberty at risk. The moment we view some individuals as more important than others, we cheapen ourselves. At the very essence of our democracy is the right to question and stand up to authority. During these trying times, we should all keep that in mind.
I'll leave you with a beautiful picture that was taken today of one of the women who was released without charges. Her husband had been waiting outside CBIF trying to find something...ANYTHING out about when she might be charged or released. This was taken moments after she walked out the door.....
I’m sure this kind of **** happens all the time in many places, but that doesn’t make it less broken.